In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ariana Tadler discuss:
- How your business card can play into your personal and professional brand.
- Top challenges for lawyers today.
- The pros and cons of multiple methods of communication.
- The 3 C’s of professionalism.
- Have a business card with a QR code. It helps to communicate and connect with more people and keeps you memorable.
- Time management is one of the biggest challenges for lawyers today. In today’s world, the sense of attention people have is much shorter than before due to devices and constant notifications. But time management is critical for lawyers.
- It is not rude to write down notes from meetings about follow-up things or to-do items. You want to make sure to be able to follow through with anything that was talked about in the meeting.
- Early is on time. Being on time (early) to meetings is the easiest way to begin to show professionalism. Being late to meetings, especially without apology or reason, will chip away at your credibility.
“Your credibility is the utmost important factor in the relationship before the court and with your client.” — Ariana Tadler
Get a free copy of Steve’s book “Sales-Free Selling” here: http://www.fretzin.com/sales-free-selling
Thank you to our Sponsors!
Get Staffed Up: https://getstaffedup.com/bethatlawyer/
- Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting Out of the Box by the Arbinger Institute – https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Self-Deception-Getting-Out-Box/dp/1576759776
- Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity by David Allen – https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Things-Done-Stress-Free-Productivity/dp/0142000280
About Ariana Tadler: Ariana J. Tadler is the Founding Partner of Tadler Law LLP, a WBENC certified women-owned law firm that offers class action, complex and commercial B2B litigation, legal counseling, and e-Discovery services. A nationally recognized lawyer, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker, Ariana J. Tadler is tenacious and gracious. Described as the consummate professional, Ariana knows how to own a room – she opens doors and gains access – if she is unable to provide services directly, she connects people with skilled strategic partners.
Connect with Ariana Tadler:
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
[00:00:00] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:00:27] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, your host, and I hope you’re having a wonderful day today. Um, listen, you’re not new to the show, I don’t think, and this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Um, if you’re hearing about Fretzin for the first time and what I do, um, as you, you know, may or may not understand, I work with attorneys, I’m a lawyer coach.
[00:00:48] Steve Fretzin: My job is to help them achieve goals around business development and personal branding and things that are going to help them in their career. And I also run peer advisory groups, I’ve got four of those, uh, going right now, where somebody doesn’t need business development so much they need. A team of lawyers to help you solve for each other’s problems and give fresh ideas and perspectives and just that accountability of knowing you’re not alone working in your own firm.
[00:01:11] Steve Fretzin: And so I just want to check, check that out at Fretzin. com and that’s enough about that. I’ve got Ariana in the wings. How you doing, Ariana? I’m good, Steve. How are you doing? Good. Good. We’ve been spending a lot of time together and, uh, I just love it. I think you’re just like the nicest, brightest shining star.
[00:01:27] Steve Fretzin: And so every time I get to hear you and see you, I always feel, I always feel good.
[00:01:31] Ariana Tadler: Well, it’s very, very mutual and we’re working together in your class for business development and it has really been a game changer for me. I’m only in about, I guess, maybe five weeks and, um, just those tools that I’ve learned in those first five weeks and the connections that I’ve made with some of the other people who are in the class have been really
[00:01:51] Steve Fretzin: rewarding.
[00:01:52] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I do love to, I do love to network. I do love to connect. That is a fun thing to do. And I know, uh, when I connect two great people together, magic sometimes happens. And, and then I just get to hear about it as like, you know, as sort of on the sidelines, but it’s still, it’s still a lot of fun. And, you know, then if you’ve listened to the show, which I think you have, you know, we always start with a quote of the show and you’ve got a really good one.
[00:02:12] Steve Fretzin: I want you to talk about it. So perfect. Here it is. Professional is not a label you give yourself. It’s a description you hope others will apply to you. And that’s it, David Meister? Meister, yes. Meister. I knew I’d screw something up. All right, so I’ve got my own take on that, but I’d love to hear why that’s your favorite quote and just, you know, what it means to you.
[00:02:33] Ariana Tadler: Sure. So I’ve been practicing law for over 30 years. I’ve also owned a business and sold a business. And one of the things that I’m extremely focused on right now is professionalism. And I have found that certainly over the last several years, whether we attribute it to what happened around the world with a pandemic, or whether it’s just purely a generational move, Because so many people are on devices all the time, we’ve lost this sense of professionalism skills that you and I and our peers and those who went before us, those were just skills that you learned on the job.
[00:03:13] Ariana Tadler: And it was because you were with people side by side. You got to see people through their body language as well as the words that came out of their mouth. What do you say? What don’t you say? And it then started dawning on me while people regularly do comment that I am the ultimate professional and I realized, wow, what a compliment that is, and especially today.
[00:03:36] Ariana Tadler: And so now I really do have a vision and goal that I’m very focused on about bringing that lost art of professionalism back to the market. What is it that I can do to build out those components? And I think everybody, it doesn’t matter where you are in your career, what type of job you have, these are skills that you need to have so that when you walk in the door and when you walk out of the door from whatever meeting you’ve had.
[00:04:06] Ariana Tadler: Somebody really is left with this sense of satisfaction and comfort that, you know, you really know what you’re doing. And even if you don’t know what you’re doing, you asked the right questions, you communicated clearly, you looked at somebody in their eye. One of the things we talked about this week in class was make sure that, you know, you come prepared.
[00:04:27] Ariana Tadler: That includes. How do you, you know, did you brush your teeth? Did you brush your hair? Did you dress the part? Be the part, right? So I believe in not only dressing the part, being the part.
[00:04:39] Steve Fretzin: And I think a lot of that too comes down to networking acumen, the ability to ask questions, be a great listener, demonstrate empathy.
[00:04:47] Steve Fretzin: I just got back from a networking breakfast with a new friend and I’ve got two or three things I’m going to do for him. I also coached him through doing one or two things for me so that we have a next step. And I think he’s leaving that meeting feeling like, you know, not only did he get some great ideas in the meeting for me about his career, but also the fact that I’m making connections.
[00:05:07] Steve Fretzin: It’s hard for him not to see me as an expert and a professional because the way that I conducted that meeting and the way that he felt leaving it, you know, unless he tells me otherwise, but I mean, I, I, you know, I have a general sense of, of, that I’m doing things that are, that are demonstrating the professionalism versus me having to say I’m a professional.
[00:05:22] Ariana Tadler: For sure, for sure. And I think that, you know, one of the things also that we learn in class is really how to set up a meeting to make sure that people walk away with takeaways and deliverables. And I think that has proven to be so effective already for me, and I know for others in the class, I have an accountability buddy from class.
[00:05:43] Ariana Tadler: We talk about that and we also then are accountable to one another when we get together once a week on our own, what is it that we need to show up with to make sure that we’re going to walk away from that call each week, that it was worthwhile,
[00:05:58] Steve Fretzin: it was really meaningful. And not to go off on a tangent, but you came up with this great question about business cards.
[00:06:03] Steve Fretzin: I just wanted to, you know, so we did a poll on LinkedIn and it was like, so the answer was, I think we had at least 50 or 60 people respond and still, I think has a couple of days to go, but it was, it was definitely that people should have business cards. And then here’s the other catch. You should have a business card with the was a card reader.
[00:06:20] Steve Fretzin: What’s that called? That, um, you are the QR code on the back of the card. So that way people can either take a card or they can. They can just scan your card and not take the paper. But I think having that combination counted for maybe 75%. Of the people that responded to that survey. So that’s pretty, pretty good insight.
[00:06:40] Ariana Tadler: Very good insight. And you know, how would we have gotten to a really good answer? It was by reason of really good communication and people sharing. And I think that messaging is going to be really important for younger generations to are moving into the job market again, regardless of what they do, how is it that they are presenting themselves and how will they be memorable to the people with whom they meet?
[00:07:05] Ariana Tadler: Making sure that there is going to be that real connection that that memorable moment. And, you know, I remember my sister who when she was in college, she went to an all women’s college and they were encouraged at that time to carry what was then called like a calling card or an introduction card. And that always stuck with me.
[00:07:28] Ariana Tadler: So I have actually. Sampled all of the versions that we were talking about. And so I’m really excited to see where the survey really flattens out or ends up.
[00:07:38] Steve Fretzin: Yep. And then we’re going to end up getting into like, what kind of stock do you need and like, you know, what do you picture on there? And like, you know, you have to have a real tactile card versus a really flimsy, thin card.
[00:07:48] Steve Fretzin: And that’s all other branding.
[00:07:53] Ariana Tadler: Everybody knows my branding, there’s a color associated with it, I wear it pretty regularly, uh, it’s up on top of my head over there, so.
[00:08:02] Steve Fretzin: Yep, yep, and so that’s a good segue though, um, Arianna Tadler is the founder and managing partner of Tadler Law, she’s a professionalism expert, you’re an expert in your specialty in law in a number of different areas, but.
[00:08:15] Steve Fretzin: Let’s get into your background a little bit. You said 30 years, it’s hard to believe looking at you, but okay. You know, you’re going to tell us that I’ll believe you, but give us that background leading into kind of your, be that lawyer, lawyer, tipping point. We love to hear.
[00:08:28] Ariana Tadler: Sure. So I was one of those few people who really wanted to be a lawyer my whole life from the time I was 13, my family.
[00:08:36] Ariana Tadler: Brought us into some environments where I suddenly learned I wanted to play a role and be effective and, and, and have really meaningful impact with people that I would be working with. And so I already knew in high school. In college in law school, right where I was going what I wanted to do and unusually.
[00:08:55] Ariana Tadler: So I had a lot of experience before I even started looking for a summer associate job. I already had worked for law firms, mostly on the defense side. I had also interned for a judge. And I found myself ultimately in a summer associate position with the plaintiff’s firm, which was really unusual because nobody knew about that.
[00:09:15] Ariana Tadler: You weren’t taught about that. And that led me to a place where I worked for 5 years for a smaller firm doing mostly securities fraud class action work. A little bit of environmental class action work to then going to the then largest plaintiff’s firm doing class action work that firm went through a number of changeovers where I ultimately was in management.
[00:09:38] Ariana Tadler: I loved being a leader, and I also became responsible for rebranding that firm several times. And in the course of doing that, I also had to pivot my practice multiple times because things were changing. And so as things were changing, I realized, okay, I need to be sufficiently flexible to be able to pivot.
[00:09:59] Ariana Tadler: My career or my, my area of practice, right? We don’t say expertise. We have to be very mindful of that as lawyers. Ethically, I kept looking at practice areas and saying, okay, where can I take my great skills and and keep moving them so that I can continue to be successful because the market is changing or the available market was changing for where I was at the time.
[00:10:23] Ariana Tadler: Simultaneously, I also love tech, and so I became very interested in electronically stored information and e discovery, and this was in, you know, really the early 2000s, 2000, 2001, 2. And at that time, plaintiff’s lawyers really weren’t as acclimated to e discovery. And so I saw this opportunity to start moving the market again to bring that element, because how are you going to prove a case?
[00:10:50] Ariana Tadler: How are you going to achieve justice? Well, you need the information to get to the truth, whatever the truth is, and that information is going to reside likely. Not only in documents, paper, like we were accustomed to when I first started practicing law, now it’s going to be in emails, and that’s what we were thinking, emails, certain, you know, word processing elements, etc.
[00:11:13] Ariana Tadler: Today, it’s ubiquitous. Pretty much everything you do is going to have some kind of data that could potentially be relevant and responsive in a case, depending on what the type of case is. And so I, I take that and also morph it back to that professionalism concept. Anything that you write, you should presume could end up on the front page of the New York Times.
[00:11:34] Ariana Tadler: And that includes when you send a text message, that includes when you use WhatsApp, that includes when you use some offline messaging platform, or, you know, social media messaging, all of that could potentially be discoverable. Discoverable. So I built a practice group about the law. And then I was introduced to a gentleman, Paul McVoy, who became our litigation tech support director, ultimately became our chief discovery officer at the firm.
[00:12:01] Ariana Tadler: And we also built out the technology. We brought the software in and we built a business line within the firm that was not only servicing our own clients, but also, and also other firms, and then ultimately Paul gets the credit. He persuaded me that we should push that business out. We launched Meta E Discovery in 2015 and Meta E proved to be a very successful entity.
[00:12:28] Ariana Tadler: We had great clients, great pieces, and Meta E is now part of a much larger organization through an acquisition. We’re part of
[00:12:35] Steve Fretzin: Repario. Yeah, and that’s, that’s the way it works, right? You build something mentally, someone gobbles it up because it’s a, it’s a great idea and it’s a profitable profit center.
[00:12:44] Ariana Tadler: Right. And then that fast forward from there, I ultimately decided in 2019 that it was time for me to make a move. I wasn’t, I didn’t feel like I was thriving. I felt it everywhere. I felt it mentally, intellectually, physically. We’ve talked about that when all those things align or are not in alignment.
[00:13:04] Ariana Tadler: And I ultimately launched Tadler Law with my law partner, A. J. DeBartolomeo and some other key members of the team. And we, of course, started out being very well known as class action lawyers and as e discovery specialists. And we were able to do that because our clients and our inventory, that all moved with us.
[00:13:28] Ariana Tadler: So we were, we were not starting at zero, right? We were starting already with a, with much more of a fundamental baseline. Right. And I said from the very beginning, I wanted this sperm. To have a diversified practice. And so I’m really proud today to say, yes, we do plaintiff’s class action work. Yes, we do e discovery counseling work and litigation work.
[00:13:50] Ariana Tadler: We also do B2B type work. We’ve represent small and medium sized businesses. We do antitrust work. We do employment work. We have C suite and directorial level people who come to us. There’s some kind of employment dispute or exit. Plan, or maybe not expected plan and they need a plan and we help them.
[00:14:10] Ariana Tadler: We’re very well known for our negotiation skills. We’re very effective. And you know, one of the things that we do, and I think we’re known for is we own the room. When we come in, we’re going to get in there. We’re going to do what we need to do, and we’re going to walk away
[00:14:23] Steve Fretzin: with a result. And so all of that, you know, being an entrepreneur multiple times and.
[00:14:30] Steve Fretzin: Seeing everything you’ve seen over the time and, and, uh, being in law, you obviously are, are, you know, driving something really special, but you also see what’s going on where there’s challenges for lawyers and, you know, whether they’re challenges that you’ve experienced or challenge you see kids coming out of law school, I mean, what do you see kind of as the top challenges for lawyers
[00:14:51] Ariana Tadler: today?
[00:14:52] Ariana Tadler: There are two that come to mind immediately. It’s time management and communication. Time management runs the gamut and I. Have a level of empathy I’ve raised two young men and so I know firsthand what were they exposed to, right? They grew up with devices. And so the sense of attention is often eradicated because they’re so used to the pinging and the dinging and the alerts and the notifications.
[00:15:22] Ariana Tadler: And so I have compassion about that. At the same time, I don’t think we can excuse. Lack of sense of time and how critical time is. We monetize time. That’s what we do as lawyers. And so it’s really important that lawyers and other business professionals understand what are they supposed to be doing during the course of the business day?
[00:15:45] Ariana Tadler: And how are they going to do it most effectively? You and I Are, are both familiar, you’re actually an ascriber and a promoter of getting things done. Yep. I just sent it to my entire team and I also sent it to my youngest son who’s starting a new job on Monday. Yeah. Um, in the music business. So, you know, think about that.
[00:16:05] Ariana Tadler: He’s in the music business and they might not think time management is so important. Of course it’s critical. How are you going to get all the things you need to get done during the course of the day? And are you using multiple sources of communication, like email, like some kind of messaging platform, whether it’s Microsoft Teams or Slack or whatever it is?
[00:16:24] Ariana Tadler: And then are there other elements in your practice that might also be sending you information or expecting to receive information? Well, you’ve got to figure out during the course of your day, when are you going to be dealing with that versus when is it that you need to put your head down and substantively think and push out whatever it is that you’re supposed to be doing for your job.
[00:16:46] Ariana Tadler: And then that dives right back into communication. I think that, again, we have a lot of people who have become so accustomed to the way people communicate in snippets, because everything’s fast tracked and you’re dealing with all of these software platforms or devices. And what’s getting lost is the actual communication.
[00:17:08] Ariana Tadler: What is the actual substance of the communication? And we risk missing the message. And I could risk missing the message because somebody says something to me quickly or with words that don’t resonate with me or have the same meaning for me as they do for them. Similarly, somebody might not understand me if I’m not really clear.
[00:17:31] Ariana Tadler: And I do think that how we communicate is critically, critically important. One of the things that you also promote, which I’ve had already taken more than once in my career, is the DISC assessment. And I think that’s such an important tool. It’s not only you’re learning about how you communicate, how do you message and how do you receive information?
[00:17:53] Ariana Tadler: Being able to also look for the cues from somebody else. Well, how are they going to best receive information so that you can connect with that? Well, yeah.
[00:18:01] Steve Fretzin: And just understanding what someone’s communication style is through the DISC is an example, and that stands for dominance, influencing, steadiness, and compliance.
[00:18:10] Steve Fretzin: There are four behaviors that everyone has in different, um, levels at different levels. And so I know, you know, you’re a high D I’m a high D and we can talk high D language together very comfortably, right? We’re talking about results. We talk about experience. We talk about, you know, getting, you know, getting things done in organization, communication, talking to someone that isn’t built like us, you know, that’s a different conversation.
[00:18:31] Steve Fretzin: And so if we treat everyone the way we, the way we want to be treated, that’s not the saying it’s now treat people the way they want to be treated. Everyone’s different. And, and you have to really. Make that a part of the consideration and building relationships and in business versus just thinking everyone is just like me, which is not the case.
[00:18:49] Ariana Tadler: Yes, and I think it can be a little bit of a struggle at times for high D’s, right? We just want to get there. And if you’re not dealing with somebody who is a high D, you need to take a breath and realize again, coming back to time management, that conversation with that particular person, maybe shouldn’t be a 15 minute part of your calendar.
[00:19:11] Ariana Tadler: Maybe that needs to be a 30 minute minute element in your calendar because you’re otherwise at risk. Of losing the ROI that you want and expect from that conversation.
[00:19:24] Steve Fretzin: As you all know, finding amazing employees can be the toughest job for any law firm leader. You deserve to run the law firm you’ve always dreamed of, but you can’t get there without a great team.
[00:19:34] Steve Fretzin: To get staffed up, they will help you by staffing your law firm with incredible full time offshore executive assistants, legal assistants, marketing assistants, and much more. The best part, they will find you a highly qualified English speaking VA based in Latin America for only a fraction of the cost.
[00:19:51] Steve Fretzin: Locally. At Freson, we use gett, staffed up for marketing person, and you know how good our marketing is. Learn email@example.com slash be that lawyer. Hey everybody, check this out. You’ve just had a call with a client where they need help with something you don’t do. You’ve reached out to colleagues, you’ve searched the lawyer directories, and you simply tell them you don’t know anyone that can help.
[00:20:14] Steve Fretzin: Overture changes all of that. Overture is the first private attorney network designed for the country’s best independent attorneys to refer matters to one another and ethically share in referral fees. It’s a great way to keep your clients happy and build your practice with referred clients. It’s by the founders of LegalZoom.
[00:20:32] Steve Fretzin: Membership is free if you’re accepted but act now to get priority access to referrals for your state and practice area. Apply for membership at Overture. law Overture dot L A W lawyers. There’s an
[00:20:46] Ariana Tadler: easy way to boost your law practice. Partner with get visible the digital marketing agency that makes you stand out, meet Sarah and awesome lawyer, but a terrible marketer, get visible, helped her build a powerful website and boost her online visibility.
[00:21:01] Ariana Tadler: Now she ranks high on Google gains clients through ads and engaging content. Tired of feeling insignificant, make it rain, visit getvisible. com and stand out.
[00:21:13] Steve Fretzin: I feel like I’m using email a lot and sometimes texting not to communicate anything more than we need to talk. Like we need to get on a call. We need to get on a zoom.
[00:21:24] Steve Fretzin: The thing that you’re asking me about, I don’t want to write that out. Not because I can’t. But because there’s an interaction that needs to happen, a communication that needs to happen, there’s intricacies in detail that will
[00:21:35] Ariana Tadler: absolutely… Of course it’s critical. How are you going to get all the things you need to get done during the course of the day?
[00:21:42] Ariana Tadler: And are you using multiple sources of communication, like email, like some kind of messaging platform, whether it’s Microsoft Teams or Slack or whatever it is? And then, are there other elements in your practice that might also be sending you information or expect you to receive information? Well, you’ve got to figure out, during the course of your day, when are you going to be dealing with that, versus when is it that you need to put your head down.
[00:22:07] Ariana Tadler: And substantively think and push out whatever it is that you’re supposed to be doing for your job. And then that dives right back into communication. I think that, again, we have a lot of people who have become so accustomed to the way people communicate in snippets, because everything’s fast tracked and you’re dealing with all of these software platforms or devices.
[00:22:33] Ariana Tadler: What’s getting lost is the actual communication. What is the actual substance of the communication and we risk missing the message. And I could risk missing the message because somebody says something to me quickly or with words that don’t resonate with me or have the same meaning for me as they do for them.
[00:22:54] Ariana Tadler: Similarly, somebody might not understand me if I’m not really clear. And I do think that how we communicate is critical. Critically, critically important. One of the things that you also promote, which I’ve had already taken more than once in my career is the DISC assessment. And I think that’s such an important tool.
[00:23:14] Ariana Tadler: It’s not only you’re learning about how you communicate, how do you message and how do you receive information, being able to also look for the cues from somebody else. Well, how are they going to best receive information so that you can connect with that?
[00:23:29] Steve Fretzin: Well, yeah. And just understanding what someone’s communication style is through the DISC is an example, and that stands for dominance, influencing, steadiness, and compliance.
[00:23:38] Steve Fretzin: There are four behaviors that everyone has in different levels at different levels. And so I know, you know, you’re a high D I’m a high D and we can talk high D language together very comfortably, right? We’re talking about results. We talk about experience. We talk about, you know, getting, you know, getting things done in organization, communication, talking to someone that isn’t built like us, you know, that’s a different conversation.
[00:23:59] Steve Fretzin: And so if we treat everyone the way we, the way we want to be treated, that’s not the saying it’s now treat people the way they want to be treated. Everyone’s different. And, and you have to really. Make that a part of the consideration and building relationships and in business versus just thinking everyone is just like me, which is not the case.
[00:24:17] Ariana Tadler: Yes, and I think it can be a little bit of a struggle at times for high D’s, right? We just want to get there. And if you’re not dealing with somebody who is a high D. You need to take a breath and realize again, coming back to time management, that conversation with that particular person, maybe shouldn’t be a 15 minute part of your calendar.
[00:24:39] Ariana Tadler: Maybe that needs to be a 30 minute minute element in your calendar because you’re otherwise at risk. Of losing the ROI that you want and expect from that conversation.
[00:24:52] Steve Fretzin: I feel like I’m using email a lot and sometimes texting not to communicate anything more than we need to talk. Like we need to get on a call.
[00:25:01] Steve Fretzin: We need to get on a zoom. The thing that you’re asking me about, I don’t want to write that out. Not because I can’t. But because there’s an interaction that needs to happen, a communication that needs to happen, there’s intricacies in detail that will absolutely be missed in an email that I send or get responded on.
[00:25:18] Steve Fretzin: So that’s where I’m, I’m feeling like that’s where I’m using email more effectively is not to try to have that conversation back. Although you and I kind of did that to like get set up for today, but that, that was easy back and forth. There weren’t a lot of details that needed to happen, but if you want to have a conversation, a coaching conversation or a, um, uh, career conversation or something like, or the one that I had this morning with this.
[00:25:38] Steve Fretzin: This new friend, like that all has to be done, you know, face to face or on the phone or zoom. There’s no way around that through an email.
[00:25:46] Ariana Tadler: So let me ask you a question, though, in the context of a business structure or a law firm structure, do you find that when you have that one on one conversation that you then are following up with something in writing?
[00:26:00] Ariana Tadler: One of the, and the reason I’m asking to give you the context is. I’m concerned sometimes that we have a, not you and I, others, I might have a conversation with somebody who I’m mentoring or I’m trying to teach something. And in order to ensure that they really got it, I feel compelled to write it. And then I’m, I do get a little frustrated because now it’s like a double whammy from a time
[00:26:26] Steve Fretzin: perspective.
[00:26:27] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, a little bit. So I’m having a conversation. There’s a couple of things that I said or that were said or that need to be done. And then a quick email after the conversation to just reinforce what was discussed. There’s actually something you need to do or something I was promising I’d send you. So I’m sending that, that video or that thing that I told you I was, that would help you like, that’s the kind of stuff where I’m using email after the call to reinforce the conversation.
[00:26:52] Steve Fretzin: So, um, because again, you know, if I see someone’s not taking notes or don’t think they’re taking notes, then yeah, I think it helps to have that. And I’m, I’m actually taking notes on my remarkable two and then emailing that to myself, which then turns into a task. Like I have all. You know, crazy process for how I don’t let things slip through the cracks.
[00:27:09] Steve Fretzin: Cause that’s my greatest fear is I just promised you something and then I didn’t follow through because I’m teaching people how not to do that, right? So I have to, I have to be in practice what I preach. Otherwise it’s, it’s a big, and there’s a lot of things I’m telling people I’ll help them with and doing for them.
[00:27:24] Steve Fretzin: And I have to have a way or a system of, of not letting things slip through.
[00:27:29] Ariana Tadler: So you beat me to it on the remarkable too, because that was another thing that connected us. So I have the remarkable too. I’ve actually given it as gifts to people as they started new jobs. And I am really now a student of yours to better understand how to optimize its value.
[00:27:48] Ariana Tadler: You do raise a really important point, though, whether you use the remarkable two or some other element. I am struck by the number of people that I, I encounter. Where you’re having a really important substantive conversation, and there clearly are to dos, and where I don’t see a pen moving, or I don’t even see typing, and I know that sometimes people feel like it would be rude to be writing or to be typing, I would prefer not typing, writing though, I get it.
[00:28:17] Ariana Tadler: Because then it’s telling me, Oh, you’re hearing me and you’re making sure that you’re reinforcing it by writing it down and hopefully you’re going to go back and look at that. And I did have an example where many years ago when I was a young partner, I had an associate who was working with me and I said, where are your notes from this meeting?
[00:28:39] Ariana Tadler: And he said, I don’t take notes. And I said, well, you need to take note. And he said, I’m not going to take notes because I’ve never taken notes. I didn’t take notes in law school. And I said, okay, well, I can go with this flow as long as you don’t let me down. And he let me down. Yeah. Yeah. It’s
[00:29:02] Steve Fretzin: like a nervousness I have when I order something at a restaurant and there’s no one writing it down and there’s like.
[00:29:08] Steve Fretzin: We call, in my family, we call it the Jewish order because it’s never what’s on the menu. I know this is a Jewish thing, but like, but I want, you know, hold the ketchup, but add this. Like, it’s not just a normal order. And every time they leave, I turn to my wife. I go, there’s not a chance in hell that this is coming back right.
[00:29:24] Steve Fretzin: There’s not a chance. Person didn’t take notes. The other thing that, that actually they get bigger tips is if they repeat it back, that’s the other trick of maybe it’s not as good as taking notes, but like, but when someone repeats your order back, oh my God, that, that waiter is or waitress or whatever is getting, you know, getting, you know, higher grade,
[00:29:43] Ariana Tadler: higher tip.
[00:29:44] Ariana Tadler: Well, that’s a form of mirroring, right? Yeah. It’s, it’s its own form of mirroring that we talk about. And yes, I totally agree with you. To me, if you tell me you don’t need to take notes, or you don’t need to take an order, and then you come back and you’ve gotten it wrong, well, clearly the formula did not work, right?
[00:30:03] Ariana Tadler: That, and, and now you expect me to reward you for doing a good job. Well, you didn’t do a good job. You didn’t do what you were supposed to do. And so I feel like we constantly do have to reinforce, again, this comes back to those elements of professionalism that I’m really working to promote. Right. It’s credibility, it’s communication and it’s conscientiousness.
[00:30:27] Ariana Tadler: And those three C’s are so absolutely. Critical to making sure that you make the connection, you get the job done, and both sides of a transaction, whatever that transaction is, walk away satisfied.
[00:30:42] Steve Fretzin: Are there, and you know, I know professionalism is your jam, and so I mean, I would be remiss if I didn’t ask if there are maybe one or two additional points that you would, that you would share with the folks listening.
[00:30:54] Steve Fretzin: You know, that really demonstrate not only professionalism, but that, that you’re really listening, that you really care and that you’re going to be memorable.
[00:31:03] Ariana Tadler: For sure, we have to start with how do you show up, right? How do you show up in the first instance is critical to me. I just recently had, I offered per request of a colleague to get on a Zoom and mentor somebody.
[00:31:18] Ariana Tadler: And so, you know, I can’t monetize that time, still, I am, you know, an absolute lover of being a mentor, and this person showed up late, and I said, early is on time, and she said, I wasn’t on time.
[00:31:35] Steve Fretzin: That’s when you get along so well, because I’m 15 minutes early generally for most meetings, people are 5 to 10 minutes late for most meetings, so I’m sitting there stewing for about 25 minutes.
[00:31:44] Steve Fretzin: And it’s just, it just eats me up and I
[00:31:47] Ariana Tadler: guess it ruins the dynamic of what’s happening, what you’re about to learn. Oh my
[00:31:51] Steve Fretzin: God. I’m trying to trust you. I’m trying to know you and trust you and like you and feel good about you. And my first impression is you’re five minutes late with no excuse and no apology.
[00:32:00] Steve Fretzin: Oh my God. So that’s the opposite of professionalism. And yet then, you know, somehow I find it in my heart to forgive and to move on and move past it. And then sometimes it comes back and haunts me because then they won’t follow through on something or they’ll show up late again or it’s just. It, it ends up being, Oh no, this is who this person is.
[00:32:18] Steve Fretzin: They’re not a professional in the same way you and I are Ariana. So it gets really, and then I know that that’s going to leak into the referrals I provide that they’re going to just treat everyone like that. Now it’s on me to some degree.
[00:32:31] Ariana Tadler: Absolutely. And that comes back to what I said, credibility, communication, conscientiousness, so credibility I’ve espoused this concept for well over 20 years, including when I lecture or teach or a Makino for whatever reason, and including with respect to litigation, I always say your credibility is the utmost important factor in the relationship before the court.
[00:32:57] Ariana Tadler: With your client, let’s start with your client. Your client is paramount with the court, with your adversary, with your team. And I expressly talk about the fact that credibility, if you lose credibility before you’re a judge or arbitrator or whoever the arbiter is. I don’t care how great a lawyer you are.
[00:33:16] Ariana Tadler: I don’t care that you had the best case. On point, et cetera, that judge, you lost him or her or they at hello. And that was. Even though you may be able to climb back up and show, Oh, you’re a really good lawyer and you got all the great, you know, pace law. And yes, you were persuasive advocate to get that arbiter or judge back in a place where they listen 100 percent to what you’re saying versus being a little bit distracted because you let them down somehow you relate you.
[00:33:53] Ariana Tadler: Didn’t follow the rules of a court, you know, courts have rules about, are, can you bring devices in? If you bring devices in, how can you use them? You put in a brief that has case law, that’s not right. We know from the news about a couple of really crazy stories of people using AI to write briefs, and it turns out the cases didn’t even exist, let alone the law being that law.
[00:34:17] Ariana Tadler: And so. You, why would you even risk your credibility when it’s just such a fundamental, come authentically, come responsibly, communication we’ve obviously talked about, and then conscientiousness is really important, attention to detail, you know, I say this regularly to my team, please don’t ever send me.
[00:34:40] Ariana Tadler: A document that has been word processed where you did not run the spell chip or the editor feature. There’s no reason for me to get that. And immediately find something wrong, because the first thing I’m going to do when I find that first thing wrong is I’m going to run the editor. And then when I see more, now, just like we talked about before, when you, like, you’re, you’re irked about something, that damages the whole effort,
[00:35:09] Steve Fretzin: right?
[00:35:10] Steve Fretzin: Well, now it’s on you and your time to do something that should have been done as a no brainer.
[00:35:14] Ariana Tadler: Earlier. Yes. And coming back to time management, what I’ve now learned to do because I’m a recovering micromanager, really a recovering micromanager, I’m, I’m, I’m definitely, uh, needing, uh, often some, you know, reinforcement.
[00:35:29] Ariana Tadler: If I run that editor after the first thing that I found, I’m done. I kick it back and I say, I’m not going to look at this for one more minute. Because I’m not going to waste any more of my time and you better get to it quickly.
[00:35:43] Steve Fretzin: Yep. Yep. Yep. Well, an interesting, uh, part to, to sort of end on right there.
[00:35:47] Steve Fretzin: But, um, I think. The three C’s you mentioned are above most importance, professionalism, you know, needs to continue to be an important role in every lawyer, every business professional’s kind of career. Let’s move on to your game changing book. We talk podcasts, but I think that a lot of people have entertainment podcasts.
[00:36:05] Steve Fretzin: Not a lot of people or as many people listening to business. We’re trying to change that by giving some great ones away, but you’ve got leadership and self deception. Which is an interesting one. Talk to us about that book and what it means to you. Why kind of you put that forward?
[00:36:17] Ariana Tadler: Sure. So, Leadership and Self Deception is by the Arbinger Institute.
[00:36:22] Ariana Tadler: It was given to me by my executive coach who I worked with for, you know, over 10 years. Uh, in a very different capacity. It’s not about business development. It’s really about kind of where you are in your career and where you’re going and how you’re, you’re growing professionally, if you will. And so he’s not stealing any thunder from you and you’re not stealing any.
[00:36:43] Steve Fretzin: I’m open to stole thunder.
[00:36:45] Ariana Tadler: I like it. This book, I mean, to break it down most succinctly is. Are you living inside the box or are you living outside the box? When you live inside the box, it means you’re only seeing things from your own perspective. You are carrying resentment, presumption, all sorts of factors that in all of you.
[00:37:08] Ariana Tadler: Possibility, maybe not likelihood in all possibility, the person that you are dealing with is not even aware of those factors happening. And it’s when you take yourself outside the box, and I think this is where the disc assessment, they don’t really talk about the disc assessment, but I think this is where the disc assessment interfaces.
[00:37:28] Ariana Tadler: Is looking at the conversation from the other person’s perspective, what might they be thinking? Where might they be going and asking them questions? So that you meet the person where they are, and you invite the person to meet you where you are. You may have to take a couple of extra steps to meet them where they are.
[00:37:50] Ariana Tadler: And when you do that, it takes out a lot of emotion and what I call ick, the ick factor. From that person, where suddenly your credibility goes way up, they’re more trusting that you’re coming to the conversation honestly and openly to problem solve. And the examples in the book come from both business perspectives.
[00:38:14] Ariana Tadler: As well as personal relationships, including even a marital relationship where things seem to have been really going off filter and suddenly this person who was having trouble at work and suddenly started ascribing to this philosophy also starts applying it in his personal life and a marital relationship that absolutely could have come to an end.
[00:38:37] Ariana Tadler: Really now is thriving and that’s, I mean, that’s what really resonated with me and I, you know, I’m recovering micromanager and also the infinite endless avid student. I am happy to learn, take a class, reading books, time management issue there and when it comes to the podcast issue, you know, when, when you ask that question, I’m just beginning to listen to more business oriented.
[00:39:05] Ariana Tadler: Podcasts, I often am listening, historically was listening to something else just to kind of give my brain a break.
[00:39:13] Steve Fretzin: Right. Right. I think it’s good to mix between the self help and the business stuff and whether it’s topical news or whether it’s comedy or whether it’s, you know, about music, whatever your interests are to listen to podcasts that really relate to that.
[00:39:27] Steve Fretzin: And again, you know, that’s how we’re filling up our time when, you know, we want to multitask or walk the dog or take a car ride or whatever it might be. Um, Arianna, if people want to reach out to you, they want to network with you. They want to learn more about your law firm. What are the best ways for them to find you?
[00:39:42] Ariana Tadler: Three, you can go right to TadlerLaw. com. You can also reach out to me at a Tadler at TadlerLaw. com. Uh, we also have people who answer the phone. If you have a, you know, a, a really important issue that you’re looking for representation or counsel on, and we have a variety of economic models, there’s contingent type work that we do.
[00:40:03] Ariana Tadler: We do project fee based work. Just to get you there to resolve a dispute quickly, you know, two letters, a couple of phone calls done. And then we also do hourly work, especially for our business to business commercial type
[00:40:14] Steve Fretzin: litigation. Yeah, really, really cool. And you know, I’ve been in the class for five weeks working with me.
[00:40:19] Steve Fretzin: Um, I don’t know if you 30 seconds on that just to give people an idea. Cause I don’t, I don’t interview people that are my clients that often. So might as well take advantage of it and ask you about it.
[00:40:28] Ariana Tadler: 100%. And I’m happy to be an endorser here and a sponsor. So this, your class came to me through a colleague that we share.
[00:40:37] Ariana Tadler: She is a more of a recruiting type person. And she had done a webinar and was, she said, if anybody needs a coach for business development, give me a call. And she gave me several names. I interviewed several people and you were the first. I knew at hello that it was a yes, because of several things, whether it’s Kismet, whatever it is, We immediately both were talking about getting things done by David Allen.
[00:41:02] Ariana Tadler: You were talking about how important it is to show up and have consistency and reliability because you saw that as a credibility factor to be an active participant in the class. And also you talked about the fact that you really were an honest broker insofar as promoting people outside the class. And I don’t just mean on social media or what, you know, seeing what people are doing or saying.
[00:41:26] Ariana Tadler: Actually checking in and say, how are you doing? What do you need? And I think the brilliant part of the class is not only the content, right? And we say, and we don’t say, but it’s the content and it’s the people who were in the class who are all amazing and interactive. And when you participate in the class, you also have direct access.
[00:41:51] Ariana Tadler: To you, um, so there’s an hour, a month of coaching, and I also have you on speed dial if I’m going to go do, you know, uh, pitch I’ll put it in brackets. We don’t really talk about pitches. No, it’s going to have a. Sales free selling, right? Steve Fredson’s sales free selling book. I recommend it highly.
[00:42:10] Ariana Tadler: Apparently you can get it quickly. Steve will tell you about that. But when you go to these conversations and really, you know, just have this agenda and kind of map it out and know that in advance of a conversation that you believe is going to be important, having a conversation with Steve for 15 minutes to say, Hey, this is whom I’m talking to.
[00:42:30] Ariana Tadler: This is what I’m trying to achieve. This is my. plan and having Steve say, yeah, that all sounds good. Except what about this? Or maybe tweet this. And the, I think a really important 1 and we’re about to have a conversation is what is the postmortem after you went and had that call or did that, you know, business development conversation, strategic partnership conversation.
[00:42:53] Ariana Tadler: Coming back and having conversation with Steve to say, how did it go? What were some of the things that you heard? What did you say? And how do you feel? What’s the next step for follow up? And Steve’s your coach right then and there.
[00:43:05] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I love those calls. Like I, that’s like, I get a call. I don’t go, Oh my God, I have to call.
[00:43:09] Steve Fretzin: I have to talk to this client. I get the call. I go, I get to talk to this client and it’s going to be something really, you know, interesting that I care about and I want to hear. And then I, you know, if I find a gap, great, you know, I’m, you know, let’s talk about it. If I don’t find a graph, I can gap. I can just say.
[00:43:24] Steve Fretzin: No, look, you nailed this. Like, I don’t think there’s anything I would have done differently and, you know, kudos. So, um, but I appreciate you. I appreciate you being in the program and working with me and being on the podcast and all that stuff. And I’m very excited, not only about your legal career, but also your career as a professionalism expert and coach.
[00:43:41] Steve Fretzin: And I know that’s something, you know, we’re going to continue to talk about as well. So just thanks so much. I just, uh, I think the world of you.
[00:43:48] Ariana Tadler: Thank you so much. And it is very mutual. I really am so grateful that you are now a major component in my life.
[00:43:54] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, it’s sometimes when the thing, when the, when the, you know, things just fit perfectly, you know, you’re everyone, everyone’s happy.
[00:44:00] Steve Fretzin: It’s the shoes you don’t want to, you don’t want to take off. So, and of course, to also thank my wonderful sponsors, have to thank them. We’ve got Get Visible. Helping people on the marketing side to just take care of every little thing they need. You’re doing a LinkedIn advertising campaign for you right now?
[00:44:14] Steve Fretzin: I’m getting a ton of traction with that. Of course. Overture Law, and I think you talked to, um, aria, right? And you guys had like the I did for hours. Like I think that was a home run and, uh, it was, yeah. And Overture Law, of course, helping people to ethically, uh, fee share and make sure that when you set out referrals, you actually get compensated for making great introductions.
[00:44:34] Steve Fretzin: And, um, and of course get staffed up my, uh, personal marketing director, Sergio is a through get staffed up full time and, you know, I don’t think my marketing would shine quite the way it does without Sergio. So, uh, thank you to get staffed up and, uh, feel free to give them a ring or jingle. If you’re interested in getting some full time help without paying the full time prices and that is kind of it.
[00:44:55] Steve Fretzin: So, um, uh, Ariana, thanks so much. And thank you all for. Being, uh, listening to the show and being, you know, again, if you love it, don’t be afraid to give us some, some kind reviews and, uh, and some stars and all that kind of junk. And, uh, we, uh, will help you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.
[00:45:11] Steve Fretzin: Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again soon.
[00:45:18] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.