Arya Firoozmand: Developing, Sustaining, and Maintaining Client Loyalty

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Arya Firoozmand discuss:

  • Referrals as a benefit to your clients.
  • Challenges lawyers have when they don’t manage their client databases and relationships.
  • Check-ins with no motive to develop trust.
  • Staying in front of legal tech.
  • Ethical fee sharing between lawyers and how Overture can help you do that.

Key Takeaways:

  • You may get referrals from clients for things you don’t do because they trust you. That can always be referred to another lawyer. It also helps keep you top of mind and are occupying space in their lives.
  • Only good things will happen when you build a strong lawyer network and can help your clients in other ways.
  • If you are top of mind and staying active with your clients, you will be the first they think of when they have a problem.
  • Be open to embracing new technology or you will be left behind. Not all tech will be right for your firm, but you should be open to embracing those that would help your firm and be willing to have the conversations and try the demos.

“At the end of the day, they’re coming to you because they trust you in that relationship. Why shouldn’t we not only capitalize on finding that client a great home, but monetizing it as well?” —  Arya Firoozmand

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About Arya Firoozmand: Arya Firoozmand is the CEO and co-founder of Overture Law, the first attorney-to-attorney platform designed for members to refer matters and ethically share in fees.

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Arya Firoozmand: If we can step back and say, how can we utilize our current client base, our past clients, our current clients, and place ourselves in their minds as not just a family law attorney, wills and trusts attorney, trademark attorney. I’m your go to for whatever you need. Whether it’s this, something else I don’t do, how can I better serve you?

[00:00:26] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:48] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here with be that lawyer. How you doing? Hope everybody’s having a great day for me. It’s like two o’clock. I’ve got three more meetings today, and I’ve already had like run two different, um, meetings, a rainmaker round table, which you guys may have heard about. That’s where I take very successful rainmakers and folks that are running firms, put them in a confidential environment together and let them work out challenges, share best practices.

[00:01:13] Steve Fretzin: And we just had a blast. And, uh, so many great takeaways when we all put our heads together and work on our. Our business is together as a team in a confidential environment. And then this morning I was doing a provisor. So if you’re a provisor’s person, a nation, nationwide out, 8, 800 attorneys or 800 members, half are attorneys.

[00:01:32] Steve Fretzin: And I just love provisors being a group leader and also, uh, just in getting involved and engaged with all the other members across the country. So check that out, Provisors. Aria, how you doing? We got you sitting in the wings, waiting patiently. I’m happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I appreciated you, uh, sharing that you listened to a couple episodes and, uh, that you feel like it’s, it’s a pretty good podcast.

[00:01:53] Steve Fretzin: That was kind of a nice way to start our chat today. Yeah,

[00:01:56] Arya Firoozmand: it’s a pleasure. I was listening to one. I was just telling you on my drive home from a client meeting and late at night, last night, at just, you know, doing my breathing exercises and being mindful. It was, it was the perfect podcast.

[00:02:09] Steve Fretzin: Uh, we’ve had a number of, of really top notch, uh, stress focused or anti stress focused, uh, you know, uh, coaches that really work with, uh, lawyers on their mental health and their well being and just having the right state of mind.

[00:02:22] Steve Fretzin: And so I think you may have heard one of those, which is terrific. We’ve got a great show today, everybody. I want to start off with the quote of the show, which is going to seem a little odd, and then you’re going to understand where we’re going with it once we get into, uh, Aria’s, uh, background. So…

[00:02:37] Steve Fretzin: Referrals fees are for the best interests of our clients. And that’s a Howard Miller, who’s the former president of the State Bar of California. Correct.

[00:02:47] Arya Firoozmand: It was something, you know, I was talking to him about what we were working on. We’re going to get into all that in a minute. But, you know, we’re talking about referral fees.

[00:02:55] Arya Firoozmand: And I think most people think of referral fees in the sense of. A benefit to me as the attorney, right? It’s something that I take away from it, but he framed it as a unique benefit to the client. And I never thought about that before. But when you step back and realize that, hey, clients access the law, most clients are dealing with solo small firm attorneys are dealing with big firm attorneys.

[00:03:18] Arya Firoozmand: They’re dealing with solo small firm guys, and they’re coming to us because they trust us. And that’s what they need help with. Hey, can you help with this? And if the answer is no, I can’t help with this. The ability for you to recommend someone that they can turn to that they can trust and as much as they trust you and get efficient.

[00:03:37] Arya Firoozmand: Were somebody who’s an expert at that area of law is in value. And so it opened my eyes to the fact that, hey, referral fees are something that’s really advantageous to the client that makes it a win win win for everybody. If you step back to big firms, this is what they do. They monetize relationships that they have with clients for decades.

[00:03:57] Arya Firoozmand: They say, hey, I’m your attorney, whatever you need from me, I have somebody at my firm who can assist. They call those fine origination, bad origination fees. And the independent firm world, we call those referral fees. And it was something that it never was put to me in that way. It kind of really kickstarted

[00:04:14] Steve Fretzin: our thinking.

[00:04:15] Steve Fretzin: Well, I will tell you that one of the things that I enjoy most about having a large legal network and I’m not getting any referral fees as a non lawyer, but I will tell you that I’m referring, I don’t know, anywhere between five and 10 lawyers in any given week. And it may not be direct business. It may be to other lawyers for them to network with, but people are finding that if they come to me with a problem in a particular state, generally speaking, I’m going to be able to help them figure that out.

[00:04:42] Steve Fretzin: And I think what you’ve put together, and we’ll talk about it in a little bit, we’ll talk about two minutes, but the idea that there, that a referral network that’s trusted and can be counted on, that’s why people are coming to me. And that’s why I think people are going to come to you. So… Uh, Aria Ferozman is the co founder of Overture.

[00:05:01] Steve Fretzin: You’re also, you also run a law firm, right? At the same time?

[00:05:05] Arya Firoozmand: Right. Yeah, we have a law firm here in L. A. and Del.

[00:05:07] Steve Fretzin: Okay. And so let’s get into your background a little bit so we can move forward with some of the questions I have. So give us that background and, and of course leading into that, be that lawyer tipping point that I love to, I love to hit as well.

[00:05:18] Steve Fretzin: Sure, sure.

[00:05:19] Arya Firoozmand: I mean, um, me and my co founders, Kurt, a buddy of mine from law school. And even before that, and Brian Lou, I’ve been working together for the last 7 years. Brian started legal zoom back in 2000. We’ve been working on a number of different legal tech related companies. We originally were the plaintiff’s world, referring cases throughout the country, generating referral fees and really got a nuanced understanding of the referral fee world as it applied to the plaintiff’s world.

[00:05:46] Arya Firoozmand: Then we ended up moving into back to the small business world where Brian knew so well and built a company called Biz Council, which sells legal subscriptions to growing businesses. And we had built a network of attorneys to service those clients. And the truth is, I’m getting to that tipping point. I don’t think we would have built what became Overture if we didn’t experience what happened over the last few years, right?

[00:06:09] Arya Firoozmand: We started to see clients at BizCouncil that the network servicing no longer being capable of being serviced by those attorneys. These clients had spread all over the country. They had operations over here. Employees in five states that were headquartered over here. And their issues were spreading all over.

[00:06:26] Arya Firoozmand: They were becoming more specialized, and these attorneys were coming to us frequently saying, I need a referral for that, and we just didn’t have that answer. And we took a step back and said, okay, you know, is this a problem beyond just our network? Is this a problem that independent attorneys experience?

[00:06:45] Arya Firoozmand: And when we saw the data that, you know, 2 thirds of law firms in the country are less than 10 people, and there’s nothing that combines. These independent attorneys and allows them to better serve their clients, expand the reach of their practice. We said, Hey, let’s, let’s build what became overture to allow rate independent attorneys to refer matters with each

[00:07:06] Steve Fretzin: other.

[00:07:06] Steve Fretzin: I mean, one of the powerful things about the big firms are their ability to work nationally, right? And have that network nationally to say, Hey, we’ve got an attorney in this area, that area that can handle it. It sounds like you’re putting together something where people could have that without having the big firm.

[00:07:22] Steve Fretzin: Deal, you know, dealing with the big firm life. Yeah,

[00:07:25] Arya Firoozmand: and maintain their independence, right? I, 1 of the best parts about what we do is I get to speak and you get to do the same with great independent attorneys throughout our country. And they’re proud of what they built. They’ve built a name and a reputation and we service that community with passion.

[00:07:41] Arya Firoozmand: And, you know, we don’t want to take that away from folks. We said, how can we build something that’s only additive to that? So when that client comes to them of 20 years and says. If the, you know, somebody who does this, the answer is always yes. In the day, let me see if I can find someone that I can trust and direct you to.

[00:07:59] Arya Firoozmand: Yeah,

[00:07:59] Steve Fretzin: spot on spot on. So one of the things that I wanted to kind of start off with in leading to where we’re going to go, you know, more about the fee sharing in a few minutes, but is. The idea that lawyers need to not only build a network, but they need to build so that they have that referral base, but also, you know, between their client base and between their networks, they may not be utilizing that.

[00:08:22] Steve Fretzin: It’s sometimes a mistake. It’s usually a mistake not to, you know, not only have your emails and your database and everything up to snuff, but kind of what do you see as like a big challenge with lawyers that maybe don’t do a good job of that? Of that managing of databases, the managing of relationships.

[00:08:39] Arya Firoozmand: Yeah, I think one thing that we see. Frequently now is, is that the solo small firm folks, they see themselves as just occupying this very small niche with class. I’m a trademark attorney. I have a wills and trust I’m a family law attorney. This is my role with this client. But I think we don’t realize when we step back that their interaction with the law may be limited to just you.

[00:09:03] Arya Firoozmand: You’re their access to legal services. And we should think of ourselves as being advocates for these folks and regardless of what these folks need. And if we can step back and say, how can we utilize our current client base for past clients or current clients? And place ourselves in their mind with not just a family law attorney, wills and trust attorney, trademark attorney, I’m your go to for whatever you need, whether it’s this, something else I don’t do, how can I better serve you?

[00:09:34] Arya Firoozmand: And you’ll see that if you can take that role in your clients. Occupy that space in their, in their minds, they’re going to come to you for everything. And you now have expanded your reach to this client beyond just that simple thing that you do. You’re going to get a lot of referrals for things that you may not be able to assist with, but they’re coming to you because they trust you and you’ll be able to find a good home that can assist that client.

[00:09:59] Arya Firoozmand: But more importantly, you’re always top of mind. So that next. Family law issue that their friend gets into, or someone else needs a will, they’re going to say, hey, I, I talked to Steve the other day about something else. You should talk to him because now you’re occupying that space. I think it’s, it’s, we think of ourselves as Jeff.

[00:10:17] Arya Firoozmand: Hey, we just do this. This is our lane and we have to. Broaden our understanding of how we can work with our clients more effectively beyond what

[00:10:28] Steve Fretzin: we know it might be considered a disservice to not ask questions and to not try to figure out where a client’s risk may be in their business in their life.

[00:10:37] Steve Fretzin: Outside of the area that you focus in and the other piece of it is. When you develop a network of lawyers and other professionals that you can refer you really become their conciliary you become their go to They want to trust you and call you first and that’s when I think all only good things can happen.

[00:10:56] Arya Firoozmand: Of course Yeah, I mean and this model isn’t something that We’re advocating for that isn’t tried and true, right? Big firms, once they get their hands on a client, they build deeper connections. They introduce them to other people. They make lifelong clients out of those interactions. So regardless, if you went to a big firm for a very discreet issue in 1 part of the country, 10 years from now, you’re going to have.

[00:11:18] Arya Firoozmand: 5 different attorneys at the firm, 5 different states, 5 different practice areas. They’re experts at monetizing and maintaining these relationships with their clients. And I think that’s what independence law for it. Aren’t as consistently doing.

[00:11:35] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, something I’ve been teaching for years that my clients really appreciate is how to actually develop client loyalty, not as a, you know, if it comes up, I’ll call them.

[00:11:45] Steve Fretzin: If they need me, they’ll call me like actually coming up with a plan of how they’re going to maintain and retain and sustain those relationships over the long haul. So the idea that we’re asking questions and getting them to come to us for other stuff that couldn’t just be one. Piece of the puzzle. How are we adding value for them?

[00:12:05] Steve Fretzin: Maybe via, you know, referrals to them for their business, helping them find new suppliers, helping them find new vendors, you know, things that are going to benefit them in business. And there’s a lot more that goes into it. Are there one or two things that you either do or that you recommend lawyers do to build that tighter sort of relationship that gets real sticky?

[00:12:25] Arya Firoozmand: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think to your point, we are generally in the beginning thought of as these cost centers. Right? And I think we’re our interactions with them are just trying to stall this problem. Once that problem ends. I think those check ins as to, Hey, now that this is resolved, how’s everything else going?

[00:12:44] Arya Firoozmand: Hey, I know you’re working on this new product. How about that kind of check in has no, there’s no ulterior motive. That’s just, I’m invested in you as a business or as a person. Hey, I told you told me your daughter was graduating and she was picking her college. I was watching the UCLA game. I was curious.

[00:13:02] Arya Firoozmand: Did she pick the Bruins or did she pick someone else? Those check ins are what develops that trust with your clients. There’s no other out. Doing that consistently with clients takes a little bit of effort, but the reward from that is immense. I know you talked on Other podcasts about you got to be spending 2.

[00:13:22] Arya Firoozmand: 5 times time on business development that Billy. Think of this as that business development. It’s it’s it is going to networking events, meeting other lawyers, meeting other clients. But why not spend that time with your current client or clients that are sitting there? And we haven’t talked to them in a few months, checking on them, give them a call, just see how things are going.

[00:13:42] Arya Firoozmand: You’d be surprised by how much

[00:13:43] Steve Fretzin: they did. I mean, I literally had three clients in my round table today all agree that when they just get off their asses and go out and meet a client at their warehouse, meet them at their manufacturing facility, actually go to their office, not take them to lunch. That’s something good, too.

[00:14:00] Steve Fretzin: But when they walk in and they start seeing risk. With employees, they start seeing risk with, with liability on this or that or the other and things come up and they just get business thrown at them left and right because just being, you know, and of course it also builds a lot of relationship to walk around someone’s, you know, business home away from home.

[00:14:18] Steve Fretzin: And I think it’s just another example of, of the little things that lawyers need to do that end up with big payoffs as it relates to relationships and actual direct

[00:14:27] Arya Firoozmand: business. Yeah. No, it’s true. If you’re, again, if you’re top of mind, if you’re showing an active interest in what they’re doing, it’s, it’s way more likely if you’re already there for them to say, you know what, Steve, you know, I do have a couple of things that are, that are, that have come up.

[00:14:41] Arya Firoozmand: What do you think about this? And before you know it, you found more work than you even anticipated.

[00:14:45] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. And, and it’s spot on from a standpoint of, of just recognizing that you need to a, spend time with your clients. B, add value for your clients. Maybe get a deeper relationship with multiple people within that client.

[00:14:58] Steve Fretzin: So it isn’t one person and keep not only that, but I would also say like, keep track of those lists because email marketing and making sure that you don’t like lose a relationship because you just kind of snapped on the job. That you’ve got to stay, you’ve got to stay on top of it. So I’m probably over communicating like that might be my problem.

[00:15:16] Steve Fretzin: Like I’m too, like the people that are in my network, they’re getting like maybe too many newsletters or too many emails or too many suggestions for like, Hey, come to this event, come to that event. They’re like enough with this. Fretson. No,

[00:15:27] Arya Firoozmand: no. I’m sure. I’m sure. Staying at top of mind. So.

[00:15:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. No doubt. No doubt.

[00:15:33] Steve Fretzin: Hey, everybody. Check this out. You’ve just had a call with a client where they need help with something you don’t do. You’ve reached out to colleagues, you’ve searched the lawyer directories, and you simply tell them, you don’t know anyone that can help. Overture changes all of that. Overture is the first private attorney network designed for the country’s best independent attorneys to refer matters to one another and ethically share in referral fees.

[00:15:55] Steve Fretzin: It’s a great way to keep your clients happy and build your practice with referred clients. It’s by the founders of LegalZoom. Membership is free if you’re accepted, but act now to get priority access to referrals for your state and practice area. Apply for membership at Overture. law. Overture dot L A W.

[00:16:16] Steve Fretzin: Okay, let’s take a quick break to talk about how money penny is changing the game for lawyers who are losing business every day and may not even realize it. It’s impossible to provide amazing client service when you have phone trees, voicemail, jail or untrained staff handling your phones. Every inbound call could be a new client to intake properly or an opportunity lost.

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[00:17:17] Arya Firoozmand: Make it rain. Visit getvisible. com and

[00:17:19] Steve Fretzin: stand out. Another aspect that we’re going to lead into is, is, um, and we’ve talked about this a lot on the show is legal tech and how maybe challenging it is for lawyers to stay on top of legal tech, what affects them, what doesn’t affect them, what’s going to really help them, what’s going to be just a nuisance.

[00:17:36] Steve Fretzin: So what’s your take on legal tech and how to sort of stay on top of it or in front of it?

[00:17:42] Arya Firoozmand: That’s a great question. You know, I think everyone’s heard the buzz about AI and they’re trying to figure out how it’s going to affect their practice and all this new technologies incorporating AI. And truth be told, we’re all watching too to see how it’s going to change the practice.

[00:17:57] Arya Firoozmand: I think the, the most important thing I can tell attorneys is be Open to that change, be open to how technology is going to affect our practices. Granted, there’s tons of great newsletters and websites that keep us up to date. But I think the biggest thing I can tell attorneys is. If we’ve done something a certain way for decades, doesn’t mean that there’s not going to be something next week that shows up that completely changes that we have to be open to embrace new technology.

[00:18:26] Arya Firoozmand: Because if we’re not, we’re going to be left behind and technology that allows us to be more efficient technology that allows us opportunities to work with each other and better and more efficient ways. Uh, these are all coming and I think we have to be open to embrace

[00:18:41] Steve Fretzin: them when they do. Yeah, and I think you got to keep in mind there’s pros and cons with every everything and every technology.

[00:18:48] Steve Fretzin: And so, you know, blogging. Well. You know, I have, you know, one of my clients is a, you know, a marketing and, um, like advertising, you know, expert, like that’s his whole firm is marketing and advertising, helping protect people from making bad decisions with their brands and with the way that they promote stuff.

[00:19:07] Steve Fretzin: And he’s, he wrote an article about it cause there’s just so many pitfalls to how you put out content that isn’t necessarily yours or that it could, um, have, you know, bad, like if it’s legal information, it could be have bad outcomes where it’s not like legit, you know, uh, a case law that’s accurate. Like there’s all these pitfalls and even posting a chat, GBT on your website could impact your, uh, with SEO could impact how the algorithms look at your site.

[00:19:34] Steve Fretzin: So there’s. You know, you got to maybe do your research before, you know, leaning in and again, specific technology. You’re

[00:19:41] Arya Firoozmand: right, I don’t think we have to, I wouldn’t recommend folks to be always the, they don’t need to be cutting edge of AI to embrace that technology, but they have to be willing to take a look and take that demo and take a look at what other folks are doing and ask other colleagues, hey, what are you guys utilizing, how can we, we see about implementing that?

[00:20:01] Arya Firoozmand: I think that’s the correct attitude to have as we’re going through this new age of legal tech, making our practices

[00:20:07] Steve Fretzin: more efficient. Yeah. And I think what I want to do is lead into the kind of the main topic for today, which is people’s attitudes, lawyers, attitudes about fee sharing. And, and we kind of started off the podcast talking about that.

[00:20:22] Steve Fretzin: But I think, There’s a great way to build wealth and I mean, legal, maybe different than other professions. You know, you have the rules that allow for fee sharing and you can have a negative feeling about it. You can have a positive feeling about it. And I want to kind of talk that through with you because that’s the business you’re in now is helping lawyers to ethically share fees and do it with integrity.

[00:20:47] Steve Fretzin: And so talk, talk a little bit about, about maybe the pros and cons of fee sharing in the mindsets of most lawyers.

[00:20:53] Arya Firoozmand: Yeah, I think, you know, it’s there’s this nice layer, right? You have plaintiff’s attorneys who, you know, sharing fees since the 1970s, and it’s been a natural part of their practice. Almost every matter that they have, maybe detached your referral fee to another colleague.

[00:21:07] Arya Firoozmand: That’s that bit of work. But then you have other areas of law, you know, any hourly slash fee areas of law, you know, both litigators and transactional folks alike who just never experienced that. And maybe it wasn’t as relevant before the last few years where the number of referrals is spiraling. People are constantly needing more and more referrals than ever before.

[00:21:28] Arya Firoozmand: There was some data that came out that almost a third of the clients that come to us, the answer is, that’s not what I do. I can’t help you with that. And In order to, you know, be able to provide better service to our clients, forget the referral fees per second, we should be able to say, hey, I have a home for you.

[00:21:46] Arya Firoozmand: I can find you a few folks that I trust that can do a great job for you. And the referral fees is the icing on top. You know, we think about we talk about independent small firms, and we have to find ways to work together more efficient. I talked about the big firms already, and they do the exact same thing.

[00:22:05] Arya Firoozmand: They saying, I don’t do this. I’m in Tampa. You need somebody in Chicago. Let me get on the phone with somebody in the Chicago office. And they just call that a client origination. Referral fees, like I said, have been around since the 1970s. Every state has rules on how to ethically share fees with attorneys.

[00:22:22] Arya Firoozmand: So they want us to do it. And as Howard very eloquently said, it’s good for the client. We just have to ensure that we’re doing it the right way. And that’s what our platform does for folks.

[00:22:33] Steve Fretzin: And how are you able to manage the different, you know, ARDC laws and requirements in different states? Because that to me seems like the trickiest part of the whole thing.

[00:22:43] Arya Firoozmand: Yeah, so one, we’ve had a ton of experience and all of our, our different endeavors with referral fees, all of the conversations we’ve had with ethics attorneys. And Kurt, one of my co founders, probably one of the 5, 5 attorneys in the country who knows referral fee rules as, as well as anybody, but funny enough.

[00:23:01] Arya Firoozmand: I think as opaque as it seems, referral fees and all the rules around them, there’s really only 2 frameworks around the country. Maybe each state has a little modification that they put on that framework, but generally most states follow the EBA model rule. And so they have very specific requirements on What you need to disclose to the client how to do so and what our platform does is we ensure that those necessary disclosures are included in every engagement that is referred through the platform so that you don’t have to worry about that.

[00:23:32] Arya Firoozmand: You just focus on finding your client. Somebody that you trust that can take care of that work. Let us worry about the necessary disclosures in the States that you’re in to make sure that these fees are

[00:23:43] Steve Fretzin: shared ethically. Yeah, and I, I think I’ve told the story of my dad, Larry, the lawyer who had his biggest year ever was, you know, he always did well, you know, like year after year, but I think there was one year where he referred out a personal injury case.

[00:23:58] Steve Fretzin: I think he took it about, I don’t know if it was six, six to seven 50. 600, 000 to 750, 000 as a referral fee and boy, was he happy. I don’t think he had any issues with that at all. You know, after X number of years, I think it took a long time to get across the finish line and was obviously a massive award for the, the, you know, the victim.

[00:24:19] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know what’s the, the negativity or what’s the, the downside of it that lawyers are where they wouldn’t want to deal in that. I think a lot

[00:24:29] Arya Firoozmand: of that stems from our initial education, right? Law school really amorous to you that you can’t share fees with non lawyers. Then that is 100% true. And that’s something that hasn’t changed.

[00:24:40] Arya Firoozmand: Who knows where the law will go in the future with non lawyer ownership of firms, but with between lawyers, that’s been around for decades. And I think attorneys have maybe just done what they’ve done for so long and they’ve never stopped. And we talked about embracing new technology and stop and said, why can’t we do?

[00:24:56] Arya Firoozmand: Why shouldn’t we do this with our colleagues that we know and trust? Granted, on the plaintiff’s side, it’s a lot easier to share in the fees, right? It’s one check at the end of a case, and that’s, that’s it. On an hourly bit of work, there’s, uh, you know, you may be able, you may have to cut a check every month, every two weeks if you’re invoicing the client that frequently.

[00:25:17] Arya Firoozmand: And so part of the reason that I think, uh, what we’ve built makes that process so much easier is that when you bill the clients on our system, we can automatically figure out the fee splits, direct deposit them to everyone’s bank accounts. So you’re not having to do any, any additional admin work to ensure that referral fees are done correctly, whether you’re sending a 10, 000 case to somebody or a 100, 000 case, uh, you can ensure that those amounts are correctly calculated and direct.

[00:25:45] Steve Fretzin: So what’s the, what’s then the, let’s get into Overture. Let’s talk about what the. The model is and how it works and is there’s a phone app and all that, or is it on a website to give us give us the details. Yeah,

[00:25:58] Arya Firoozmand: so which is really comprised of 2 distinct things, right? So when there’s the platform that allows attorneys to post referrals, other attorneys to respond to referrals.

[00:26:08] Arya Firoozmand: There was, there’s a lot of chat and communication built around that. Once they have made a successful connection, we built e sign on to the platform where the attorney who takes the work and upload their engagement agreement. We can attach the necessary disclosures as we discussed to ensure those referral fees are done ethically.

[00:26:26] Arya Firoozmand: And then we’ve got the billing tool in our platform. We built a very simple billing tool where attorneys can send trust requests, send invoices, build their clients that they receive. Uh, through overture, and we can direct deposit everyone’s fees accordingly, but that’s just 1 part of it. The truth is, it’s a, it’s a great tool.

[00:26:44] Arya Firoozmand: It’s a, it’s a very easy to use tool, but without a network of some of the best independent attorneys in the country. It’s just a fancy tool, right? You need to have confidence that. Every attorney on the platform using it has been gone through the same things. You have the interview. No, 1 gets in without having a conversation with our membership team and seeing.

[00:27:03] Arya Firoozmand: Are they somebody we would recommend our own family friends to? Are they responsive? Are they cut from that same plot that we are? Because when you refer a client from Miami that you’ve known for 10, 15 years to somebody in Denver, you need to be 100% certain this attorney. Is going to treat that client the same way so.

[00:27:23] Arya Firoozmand: Overture is really 2 things it’s the community that we’re building and the platform that makes referrals

[00:27:29] Steve Fretzin: easy. What sounds really helpful and i’ve already brought up to a number of my clients and um, you know, we’ll put it in the show notes and continue to promote it. As i think it’s it’s 1 of those 1 of those rare opportunities where people that maybe aren’t normally engaging in that type of.

[00:27:47] Steve Fretzin: Activity can, because they hadn’t felt comfort with it or they didn’t want to deal with it, may start to turn a corner that, you know, listen, there’s a way to make money as a lawyer by helping people without doing the work and, and, and again, big firms and folks that are, that are experts across marketing within a mid market firm, small firm, whatever, big firm.

[00:28:07] Steve Fretzin: You know, they’re getting, you know, the origination on it. They’re getting paid bonuses on, on all that work that they’re referring to their partners internally. And there’s no reason a solo small player, small firm player should miss out on those on those same types of paydays. Yeah.

[00:28:22] Arya Firoozmand: Yeah. And, and at the end of the day, they’re coming to you because they trust you in that relationship.

[00:28:27] Arya Firoozmand: Why shouldn’t we not only capitalize on finding that client a great home, but monetizing it along.

[00:28:33] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So what’s, so I know you mentioned there’s like a whole process to get signed up, but, but can you just share the contact information and what the process is a little, in a little more detail. So people that are listening can, that want to jump on board with this, you know, and maybe there’s, you know, we, we, you know, they mentioned the show or something like that just to, so, you know, You know, that, uh, you know, they heard it here first, but what, what are your thoughts on what, like walk everyone through that?

[00:28:56] Arya Firoozmand: Sure. Sure. So, you know, seeing is believing. So if you’re an attorney, uh, anywhere in the country, you can create an account at overture dot law. You see the platform and it’s live state. See the referrals that are going through, see the members that are there. Granted, you can’t interact with the community or post or response to referrals, but you can see the vibrancy community.

[00:29:17] Arya Firoozmand: And if it’s something of interest to you, you can fill out a quick questionnaire that we have on the platform. We do our due diligence on the back end to ensure that you’ve been an attorney for at least 5 years, no bar complaints. Quality client reviews do other criteria that look at that’s the easy stuff.

[00:29:34] Arya Firoozmand: And then, uh, you can schedule an interview with our membership team to have that 1 on 1 interview. Uh, as much as we want to say, we can pick great attorneys from just looking at your profile. The truth is it’s hard. And as an attorney myself, when I try to find someone, it’s hard to say just from a website, is this person a good attorney?

[00:29:52] Arya Firoozmand: Would I recommend this attorney to somebody else? So that’s why we have every single person. Interview with our team. Uh, and if you’re accepted onto the platform, then it gets you set up after that.

[00:30:04] Steve Fretzin: Really, really great stuff. And if people want to, so it’s overture. law. And if they want to get in touch with you directly, is that a LinkedIn thing?

[00:30:11] Steve Fretzin: Is that, how do they reach you? You,

[00:30:14] Arya Firoozmand: I’m always accessible. I love to talk to attorneys throughout the country. You can email me directly. Just my initials AF at overture. law. I’m on LinkedIn as well. So always happy to chat.

[00:30:26] Steve Fretzin: You chose an email without your last name spelled out.

[00:30:29] Arya Firoozmand: You know what? Uh, you, you can spell it out if you want.

[00:30:31] Arya Firoozmand: We just may be here.

[00:30:34] Steve Fretzin: Baruzman. Very good. Very good. And hey, wrapping things up, we’ve got a game, a game changing podcast. And this one is one that I, I’m, shame on me. I hadn’t heard of, but I’m going to start listening to it because I’m curious about it. And, and it sounds like it’d be a really good, uh, podcast for lawyers listening to this show, not to take away your loyalty folks, but, but it’s just another add on is called the lawyer stories by Ben gold, Benjamin gold.

[00:30:58] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,

[00:30:58] Arya Firoozmand: talk about them. It’s a great podcast. I, it’s, it’s focusing more so on the story of how lawyers got to where they are. Right? So, instead of. I think focusing on what they’re doing now, it’s that whole story from your childhood. College to law school to how you got into the field that you are. I think it’s a unique perspective and it’s, it’s always enjoyable to hear.

[00:31:20] Arya Firoozmand: How did someone get to this point out there? How did you get into that niche? Hearing that background and that story is something that I enjoy listening to. So yeah, that’s, that’s one that I’d recommend if you guys haven’t.

[00:31:32] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. One of my, when I keep saying one of my clients, I had a lot of client interactions today, I guess, but Anita Ventrelli, who’s very well known regarded divorce attorney here in Chicago.

[00:31:42] Steve Fretzin: With Schiller to Cantu Fleck and she always talks about her first experience as a lawyer was 12 years old recommending that her parents get divorced. And it turns out now she’s one of the most respected at, you know, divorce attorneys in the country. So, uh, it does start sometimes at an early age and those are some great stories.

[00:32:00] Steve Fretzin: I’m going to have to tune into that. And before we wrap up, just want to take a moment, of course, is always due to thank our sponsors. We’ve got get visible, just superstars in the legal marketing space, you know, doing the digital marketing, the pay per click and the SEO and everything you need to make sure that you’re getting found and getting that business in the door.

[00:32:17] Steve Fretzin: We’ve got Overture Law, who’s helping you not only get business, but also refer out business in an ethical way. And of course, Moneypenny, who’s just awesome at helping you get rid of those stinking phone trees. I hate those phone trees. And so of course, they’re going to be terrific to help you make sure you get to the right person and get the intake going on that.

[00:32:35] Steve Fretzin: So check out Moneypenny. Aria, thank you so much, man. This was wonderful. I think you’ve got a great legal tech product that people should be looking into and just appreciate you sharing your wisdom and being on the show.

[00:32:46] Arya Firoozmand: Hey, it was a pleasure meeting you. Thanks so much for having me.

[00:32:48] Steve Fretzin: Man, it went really fast.

[00:32:50] Steve Fretzin: I’m like, I’m shocked. That was 30 minutes. Wow. And thank you everybody for spending some time with me again today and with, with Ariane. Be that lawyer. The idea here is always to give you, you know, actionable takeaways and things you can use to improve your life as an attorney and live the best life you can, have the best year every year.

[00:33:07] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, that’s by being that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.

[00:33:19] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business developments. Development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes