BE THAT LAWYER LIVE – Coaches Corner – Part 2 of 2

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Gary Johnson, David Ackert, Steve Seckler, and Sharon Ve discuss:

  • Getting more value from your presentations.
  • Qualifying perspective clients.
  • Building referral sources.
  • The hidden power of being an introvert.

Key Takeaways:

  • Your ideal client is not going to be the same as someone else, even if your same practice area, because you both have different strengths and focuses.
  • Empower your team who are handling intake to ask the right questions with empathy and get back to people in a timely manner.
  • Communicate in the way that the people you are talking to want to communicate.
  • Mindset is one of the most important aspects of networking.

“Just like technology is constantly evolving, allow yourself to evolve as well. Because when you allow yourself to evolve, and making different tweaks to adjust to serve younger clients, or clients who have different needs, it’s not going to be as painful as would be a complete shift from not doing anything to having to learn everything and do everything differently.” —  Sharon Ve

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Gary Johnson, Narrator, David Ackert, Steve Fretzin, Steve Seckler



Just like technology is constantly evolving, allow yourself to evolve as well because when you allow yourself to evolve and making different tweaks to adjust to serve younger clients or adjusting to clients who have different needs, it’s not going to be as painful as it would be a complete shift from not doing anything to having to learn everything and do everything differently.


Narrator  [00:28]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Ritson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve, Brett said


Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve parecen. As the announcer mentioned, hope you’re having a lovely day today. wonderful time. We are about to hit part two of Coach’s Corner here on BE that lawyer again, helping you be someone that’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, you missed the first one, go back and listen, if you listen to the first one, I know you’re anxious to hear our panel, continue this conversation and get into deeper into the weeds on business development, marketing, branding, just about anything and everything that you want to know as a lawyer to grow your business and keep it consistent and steady into 2023. So we’ve got Steve Sackler, David akard, Sharon v. And Gary, the man Johnson, waiting in the wings to answer your tough questions. And what I thought we would do is we would start this second segment up with a question that was given to us by a guy named Jason who’s waiting in the wings here. And it’s really about how do we get more value? From our presentations? I know there’s lawyers that are speaking at Bar Association’s they’re out, you know, chatting things up, you know, preparing and spending a lot of time investing time and in doing things like that. And Sharon, did you have some insights on this that you wanted to hit on the presentations? And how to get more value from those?



Yeah, I’d love to. I don’t need to reintroduce myself, though. Do I?


Steve Fretzin  [02:06]

Yeah, you want it? Yeah, let’s do that panel, this reintroduce yourself. Before you answer the first question. Let’s make sure everybody if somebody missed the last one, then they understand who the panel is



perfect. So anybody who knows lawyers who hate what they do, I am the inspired attorney, and I hope you rediscover your superpowers and practice from that place the passion in law, because at the end of the day, we are supposed to be using our superpowers to serve the clients that we serve. And when we’re practicing from a place of passion and joy, it just makes the world a better place, including our own lives. So wanted to address Jason’s question, because it’s really interesting, because you think that automatically by giving presentations at bar associations and industry groups, people are just gonna be knocking down the door, wanting to give you new business. But the thing is, when you’re giving those presentations, I think one of the things that will be important, if you’re not getting the feedback that you want, would be to back up and say, what’s the reason for me doing this? And what’s the content that I’m putting out there? And who are the people that I’m trying to connect with? So for example, you’re doing presentations at Bar Association’s you’re trying to go after referral sources? What are things that your referral sources need? And what are things that you can give them that make you that industry expert, and that are going to make them want to refer you to your ideal client, because what we really need to remember and Steve talked on this on the last episode is that there is no such thing as lack, unfortunately, law school teaches us to Pat us on the bell curve is just not helpful. It pits us against each other. The thing is, is your ideal client is not the same as somebody else’s ideal client, even if you’re in the same practice area, and you have your own unique superpowers that are gonna help them just as somebody else has their own unique superpowers that are mine. So when you’re able to be conscious about the messages that you’re putting out there, and then also regroup afterwards and see what’s happening, and what’s coming out of them and be conscious about the messages that you’re putting out there. This will allow you to be more concise about the conversations that your situations.


Steve Fretzin  [04:12]

Yeah, very well put, Sharon, thank you. Let’s go to who was up on this was a Gary Johnson. Yep.


Gary Johnson  [04:19]

That was brilliant. What Sharon just said. And to just add on to that getting very tactical and very strategic is find out who’s actually going to be at that presentation Jason and really see and connect with those individuals. What I would suggest doing is sending an email out to them saying, Hey, I know you’re coming to this presentation, and I’m speaking on this, but is there anything else that you would want me to speak on and then when you give the or when they give you the feedback, you then address them again say I’m really looking forward to meeting you there. And so instead of giving a presentation to 100 people, you’re giving a presentation to five people and those are the five people that you want to get referrals for on. And then after the presentation, you say, hey, so thank you so much for your feedback that Donald, let’s grab coffee. But this is all getting the right people to actually have those conversations because you’re adding value, but you got to connect with these individuals.


Steve Fretzin  [05:17]

Yeah, well put, well put. And one thing I’d add to this is, I teach my clients this and they see a dramatic uptick in business after presenting. Well, first is, you know, obviously find the right targets, find the right audience that isn’t necessarily just your competition, but people that can actually, you know, work with you. The second is, most people kind of do a presentation, they move on, and it’s sort of over and then it’s sort of out into the ether, and it’s gone. And I’m trying to slow people down and say, Hey, can we get them to complete a survey, a written surveying, it’s harder with Zoom than, you know, like, I’m not sending out a survey from this program. But like, generally, if I’m speaking to like a bar association or group of lawyers, I would have them complete a survey. And in those questions, give me feedback on what they liked what they didn’t. Maybe there’s other subjects, they want to hear about things like that. But the last question I ask is, do you have an interest in talking with Steve about his services, and if there’s 20 people in the room, and 10 of them, say yes, and I get six appointments, I might get a couple of clients out of it, because we’re trying to weed it down to who’s really a good fit. But if I don’t have those surveys filled out, then it’s like, I could just shoot an email out or offer up a free ebook or something. And the likelihood that I’m going to get people to actually meet with me and have those conversations goes way, way down. So you may want to consider putting together some form of a next step written survey and deal with the person running the event to get that across the finish line might make a big difference between, you know, getting it knocked out and not getting an act out. Okay. So some thoughts there. Let’s move on to our next question. And I have to pull up who put this out there, but it’s a really good one. And it’s really about how do we qualify prospective clients that they’re able to pay? even maybe before a meeting, so if there’s some type of way to qualify, so that if you’re taking a meeting as a lawyer, you don’t want to waste an hour with someone maybe that you know, is in bankruptcy or doesn’t have the money or is just kicking tires? Is there a way to really qualify and make sure you’ve got someone solid in front of you prior to meeting or maybe while you’re meeting with them to identify that if you want to invest that hour? Steve? Sounds good.



Just look at their bank account. Okay. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [07:23]

I mean, that’s just just asking for their bank account routing number. Right, Gary Johnson with, with the levity. Thank you, sir. Let’s go to Steve Sackler on this one,


Steve Seckler  [07:33]

call them the only accept crypto. There we go. So I’m going to introduce myself again, for those that didn’t hear the first presentation. I’m an attorney who’s devoted his entire career to helping lawyers advance their careers, I spent the first several years out of law school, organizing hundreds of continuing legal education programs, and I spent the next 23 years doing a mix of legal recruiting and coaching. And for the last two years, my focus has shifted to entirely to coaching lawyers on how to stop acting like a lawyer. So they can grow their practice, increase their career satisfaction, or become more effective leaders. So one of the ways that I don’t know that I have a lot to say about how to make sure that they can pay. But one way to see and make sure that they’re committed is I had coffee yesterday with a friend of mine who’s a trust and estates lawyer. And whenever she signed somebody up for their first appointment, she always has them and makes them fill out some kind of intake form and questionnaire of some sort, so that we she gather some information. And by doing that, then actually, I think I picked this tip up originally from either Steve and or Gary, although probably both of you to send out something to these prospective clients so that you can see that they’re committed to doing something, and then not just kicking the tires. So that would be my advice about seeing how committed somebody is.


Steve Fretzin  [08:51]

Yeah, really good. And again, there’s there’s a lot of different software’s out there. And, David, if you can speak to this, since you’re the software, you know, guru for lawyers, what can people do to sort of get that intake or to figure out maybe even through an initial phone call that someone has the willingness and the ability to pay?


David Ackert  [09:09]

Well, thanks, Dave. I’m David Acker. And I’m the founder of accurate, and we not only coach lawyers, and have been doing that for about 20 years now. But we’ve developed technology called pipeline plus, which helps lawyers prioritize their most important relationships, their clients, prospects, and referral referral sources. So if you’ve tried CRM, and it’s just not for you, you may want to give pipeline plus a try. It’s a much simpler approach, and it’s really designed for lawyers. So Steve thought of me for technology, because he’s got that association in his mind. You know, I think Steve Sacklers comment about serving is really smart. I, earlier in the chat, somebody said, you know, I don’t want to just not return the phone call. I absolutely agree with that. You’ve got to protect your reputation and you don’t want to be rude. I mean, this person has reached out to you so at least give them the courtesy of a return call. Think of how annoyed you would be if you had An important issue in your life and you’ve reached out to potential, you know, solver of that problem. And they didn’t even have the common courtesy to return the call. So you want to treat people as you wish to be treated. And what I would say in terms of technology is, you know, I think the survey is probably your best bet from a tech perspective. What you want to do in the room, though, is ask some questions that help qualify their intention. So for instance, you could ask a question about, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how important is it that you solve this problem within the next few weeks, right, so you get a sense of urgency for them. And in some cases, you already know, they’ve got to do something about this, simply because you understand the mechanics behind the the legal issue, but asking them questions that help kind of pull out their sense of, of commitment to taking action during that intake meeting is really key and training, if you’ve got staff that are handling intake for you to also ask those kinds of kind of pain questions, if you will, or those, you know, understanding the extent of their emotional need is just as important as asking technical questions about the matter.


Steve Fretzin  [11:07]

Yeah, thank you, sir. Very good. Let’s go to Sharon V.



I’m just going to add to what David was saying, I think that it’s really important, you know, when we have to know who our ideal client is, and also take a look at in the past, what kind of requests have you been getting? What are the common questions that you’ve been getting, so that you can base your response based on that? So for example, just some of brainstorming things that came to me, you can have frequently answered questions on your website, so that someone’s not going to waste your time where they can get the answer that is not going to require you or someone who’s working for you to go on. To answer the call. intake is really important. But also, like David said, empowering the people who are handling intake to ants ask the right questions, and so that they can present you with something. And then you also set timelines to get back to people use utilize software so that people are responded to within a certain amount of time, because it’s really important that even if you’re not going to follow up, if you haven’t, even that, but if that client is not someone that you’re going to want to work with, it’s important that you get back to them in a timely period, or someone who works for you is going to get back to them in a timely period. Because this is about the people that we serve, and they want to feel valued, and they’re more likely to recommend you to someone else. If you got back to them, and you treated like them, I treated them like a human being.


Steve Fretzin  [12:29]

Yeah, very true. Steve Sackler, you have your hand up, you want to add this or no is that from before? That’s for me for Gary Johnson.


Gary Johnson  [12:37]

Yeah, to to add on to what Sharon had just said, is, make sure that your people are empathetic when they’re answering the phone. Because there’s a lot of times that I see attorneys that will do intakes, and it’s like a deposition, where it’s like, you’re just qualify, qualify, qualify, qualify, and the person’s like, Okay, I’m just a transaction. I’m not actually a relationship that you’re trying to build. And so you want to make sure that you’re empowering your attorneys to be able to ask the question, and then have a correct empathetic response. Like, if you’re an estate planning attorney, you’re like, so what’s the reason for the call? Well, my father just died. Great. How long ago? Did he die? What is his assets? Do you have a will and trust like that? No, have some empathy for them. So that pulls them in to actually be a valued individual and also exceed their expectations in regards to callbacks? I mean, I think Sharon is right on you tell you’re going to be getting back to them. It’s such an important element that a lot of people just fall down on. They just don’t think it’s that great.


Steve Fretzin  [13:43]

Yeah. Well said Well said, hopefully, that answered your question on that. So you know, between intake and questioning and, and doing it in a way that’s natural, and empathetic is really going to be the key there. David, you want to add something real quick on as we wrap this up, just


David Ackert  [13:57]

real quick, I want to urge you to consider that every prospect who calls into your practice that you don’t didn’t get considered there was something that you might have done that caused that result. Don’t just chalk it up to well, they went to a cheaper provider, like don’t make those assumptions. Right. Scary suggestion was a great one. Sharon, everybody on the panel has given you great suggestions on how you can tighten up your process and improve your close rate.


Steve Fretzin  [14:21]

Yeah, right on. And at the end of the day, you know, what I tried to do is make a friend and that’s a that’s a Larry Fredrickson, you know, the retired lawyer father advice, you know, if you can’t make a make a deal, make a friend and so, you know, I’m looking to meet with people and if they, you know, have zero money to pay me, alright, well, let’s send them a book. Let’s send them let’s get them into a webinar. Let’s get them on the podcast. Let’s do something positive for someone else and be that friend and we’re never going to get a negative review. And it doesn’t take that much time. Okay, so I really think that’s great.



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Steve Fretzin  [16:23]

Let’s move on. I got another question. This is from a good friend of mine and a client Carl. And so he’s kind of in the the later stages of career and he’s really, you know, interested in understanding how to leverage his experience and expertise as a lawyer with you know, I’m not gonna say 3040 plus years of experience, but probably more than that, in dealing with younger lawyers and how do we leverage the the winds, the expertise, the experience that we’ve had to maybe compete more effectively in the marketplace with all the new warriors coming up and out? Anybody want to take a shot at that? No, no one does. Okay. So Carl, you’re out? Oh, wait a second. Okay. No, we’re all right now, Steve Sackler take a shot. And then Gary.


Steve Seckler  [17:08]

Well, I mean, first of all, you can keep working your existing network, to try to get introductions to people that are more in the decision making power, the place to start with any business development, when you’re trying to get referrals or referrals to other referral sources is start with the people who you know. So if the people that you do know already, and if you’re, if you’ve been in practice for a long time, you may have an aging population of relationships and contacts, but those people may be able to introduce you to people that are more active in their businesses. So that would be my main practice tip. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [17:42]

terrific stuff, Gary,


Gary Johnson  [17:44]

I would find out what they are passionate and good at. I mean, one of the biggest mistakes that I see is that a newer attorney or a newer partner that now needs to build business, and then like, they go to the managing partner, they say, What do I do, and they go go out network, well, this person is socially awkward. They should not be networking in any manner whatsoever. It’s not like one size fits all, find out what they’re passionate about. And also try and guide them with your different experiences, and make sure that they have a target market. I mean, it’s one of the biggest mistakes is everybody is not a target market. So make sure you focus in on that, because it’ll save them a lot of time and headache.


Steve Fretzin  [18:27]

Yeah, so Sharon, going back into, you know, how do more experienced well seasoned attorneys compete more effectively for business? Talk to that if you would a little bit conflicts continue this?



Well, I was just going to add that, you know, these young attorneys that are coming in, I think the question also was how do we teach skills to? Well,


Steve Fretzin  [18:48]

I don’t think I don’t think we’ve gone there yet. I think we’re still talking about how do we compete with young lawyers as a more seasoned attorney? So I apologize if there was a misunderstanding on that one, but



I’m happy to add,


Steve Fretzin  [19:00]

yeah, go for it.



So I really think it’s just about also being open, because you don’t necessarily need to go to war with them. We can learn from one another, see what they’re doing right and what they’re not in there, what they’re not doing. And really just focus on your clients, what you can do to build your business and like what everybody else said, is, you know, go to your referral sources, maybe you need more referral relationships. Just really put yourself out there and find ways to put yourself out there that also works for you, because what works for you doesn’t have to work for somebody else.


Steve Fretzin  [19:35]

Yeah, well said. Well said, Steve,


Steve Seckler  [19:37]

the thing another thing is to show that you’re communicating with a younger generation in a way that they want to be communicated with. There’s a lot of evidence that millennials and others want to speak more indirectly with texting and with email and whatnot. So don’t think like in my generation, you would pick up the phone and call somebody and leave a voicemail message. I think voicemail would be very off putting So think about it that way. And then by using the technology are sort of it’s kind of meta, you’re showing that you’re, that you’re savvy enough that you haven’t sort of lost your fastball. My 87 year old mother in law is very good with technology. And it’s impressive, you know, she’ll, she’ll, she was on, I had her speak at one of my programs, and she was on Zoom. And, you know, she’s not trying to build a business she retired 20 years ago, which is a whole nother story, but you know, show that you’re tech savvy, and that you can communicate in the way that somebody else wants to be communicated with not in the way that you were accustomed to communicating.


Steve Fretzin  [20:33]

Yeah, and a follow up to the, you know, aging attorney and making sure that, you know, people are working longer, right, I don’t think people are retiring at 65. I think my father retired 65 to the day and I think most attorney have run 65, I think I’m going to be in the in the, in the heat of things, I don’t think there’s going to be any slowing down at 65. So that being said, you know, when you hit a certain number, like 6570, your networking and referral sources and others that you’ve been together with for who knows how long, 40 years, they start to retire, they start to, you know, wind things down? So a follow up question is, you know, how do we continue to do business, when we find that many of the people that we’ve been doing business with are retiring and slowing down? David?


David Ackert  [21:17]

Well, if you are nearing this stage of your career, you know, you can be pre emptive about it, right? Start building relationships that are a little bit younger, anticipate that this is a thing that you are going to have to confront, at some point. And so that’s certainly one step you can take. Martin had a question about, How do we, how do we ask for for help meeting people’s replacements? I think it’s really as simple as that. Just saying that, listen, you know, I’ve, I’m really looking to expand my network in that kind of next generation would love to meet some of the people who are rising stars, or maybe, you know, just kind of newly established at your firm, be happy to mentor some of them, like there are a lot of things that you can do as sort of overtures to justify the outreach. But there’s nothing wrong with simply saying, I want to help some of your younger lawyers, I’m sure that people that you’ve developed relationships over the years would be happy to set up that launcher happy to set up that that call, so that you’re able to make a contribution in that way, and that they can help you back.


Steve Fretzin  [22:26]

Yeah, really good. And Elaine Godley added something in the chat too, about identifying those young, up and comers that you might think are competitors to you, or that are going to take business and mentor them and develop that relationship. And now next thing, you know, you’ve got someone, you know, referring you as the smartest person in the room, versus someone who you might just ignore and say, Oh, it’s just a young buck that I don’t want to deal with. So I think that’s a really good tip there, Elaine, we’ve got a couple more comments, and then we’re gonna move on to our final question, Sharon, you want to jump in?



I just wanted to add, I think that, you know, the older we get, oftentimes, we can get quite set in our ways. And it would be good to allow ourselves to work out the muscles of doing new things, it doesn’t mean that you need to completely change who you are to fit a younger generation. But just like technology is constantly evolving, allow yourself to evolve as well. Because when you allow yourself to evolve, and making different tweaks to adjust to serve younger clients, or adjusting to clients who have different needs, it’s not going to be as painful as it would be a complete shift from not doing anything to having to learn everything and do everything differently.


Steve Fretzin  [23:39]

Yeah, very good. Let’s go to Gary. Yeah.


Gary Johnson  [23:43]

That is to look at your referral sources and understand what is the benefit that you offer to them? And the reason why they’ve been referring you business for so long, remind them of that and say, who else in your firm? Can I also be of benefit to? Because you’re reminding them? Oh, yeah, that’s what I got out of this relationship. And oh, this other person would really be beneficial to that as well. So it’s just a communication of benefits.


Steve Fretzin  [24:11]

Yeah. Well said, and we’ve only you guys, we’ve only got about five minutes left. And I have one final question. I’m making an executive decision on which it is because there’s two or three that I have written down here. One of the things I think we heard recently that a large pop and maybe we all know this, it’s obvious maybe not but that a large population of the of lawyers are introverts, and that networking and other business development activities, don’t come second nature, and it’s more challenging. In fact, I saw a friend of mine take a picture of herself in a bathroom, who Saj I think it was, took a picture of herself in a bathroom saying this is what I do at a networking event. I’m hiding out and she’s the most wonderful person I know. And I felt for her but that’s you know, sometimes we got to escape for a few minutes. But you know, for introverts and even for extroverts, I mean, how are we getting our minds and our activities wrapped? around business development so that we can make it work for us versus it being just some scary, nasty, gnarly beast that we avoid. Sackler you want to go.


Steve Seckler  [25:11]

So, first of all, introverts actually have a big advantage in business development. Because if business development is about relationship building, and relationship building is built on trust, and trust is built on good listening, introverts are much better listeners than extroverts. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is, you know, if you’re really not comfortable with doing something, go, but don’t just forget, can I tell a very quick story? Very quick. Okay. So in July, I was ready to be presented in a live event. It was one o’clock in the afternoon. And I thought to myself, I have to get dressed. I was filling in for another speaker, I have to drive to Boston, where am I going to park? Do I really want to speak to this group. So that’s the way that’s my default mode. And that’s probably the way a lot of us would think as lawyers. And then I went, and I had a great time. So I pushed myself a little bit. And I went, because I knew that there might be people that that I wanted to meet, but think about what your default reaction is. And if it’s really, I really don’t want to play golf, then don’t go to the golf outing. If it’s like, I’m not so sure how comfortable I’m gonna be. But I know I’ll run into a lot of people that I know, then do that.


Steve Fretzin  [26:16]

Yeah, it sounds like discipline, just having you’re not trying to do everything, but have a little discipline of committing to something and executing on it. When you commit to it. I think that’s really, really important. Well put, Steve, let’s go to Gary.


Gary Johnson  [26:28]

So mindset is one of the most important things in networking, especially for shy introverts, make it about the other people don’t make it about yourself, what do I look like? How do I feel? Make it about how can I be of service to these people? What can I give them? How can I add value to them, because then your questions are going to be so much better, and you’re going to be curious about them, and you’re gonna make the other person feel important, which they will give a vibe to you, which will also enhance your competence to


Steve Fretzin  [26:56]

Yeah, maybe to touch on that someone who has no experience with mindset, Sharon V. Total sarcasm there. Of course.



Just say if you’re having issues, when you’re when you’re dealing with these situations, a great thing to do is start understanding where the fears are coming from. And if you’re really a true introvert, and you put yourself in a situation where you went to a large networking group or whatever, allow yourself a moment to speak to maybe two or three people have a buddy there, but allow yourself to find somebody else to speak with. And just give yourself the opportunity to have one on ones and then take a few Pete like give yourself a goal to have, I don’t know three people to connect with that you can speak with or like offline or at another event, and then move from there because a lot of introverts, like you said earlier, great networking, because it’s the one aspect that they’re really good with.


Steve Fretzin  [27:44]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. David final panelist final thought,


David Ackert  [27:48]

I have a lot of compassion for introverts. I happen to be married to someone who has those proclivities and who is also an attorney. And one of the things that I see over and over again, is, you know, just telling them Look, just get out there, it’s gonna be okay, it doesn’t really resonate, right, it just so goes against kind of how some folks are wired. So consider that, noting back to some earlier comments that were made in this program, play to your strengths. If networking in large groups isn’t a strength, then maybe focus on one on one networking, if that’s a strength, and if that’s not a strength, consider you can blog, right, that’s another way to sort of get that marketing message out there. And if that’s not a strength, you know, I know a lawyer who’s an introvert and they have hired someone to manage their LinkedIn profile and post for them, they just approve it. They’re like, come up with cool stuff for me to say, I’m not gonna I’m never going to do this, but I’ll review it, and I’ll approve it, right. And then that gets posted for them. And that’s another way for them to stay connected to their network. So there’s always a way around this. And if you’re completely Drawing a Blank, hire a coach, I bet Steve can help.


Steve Fretzin  [28:49]

Well, I would like to agree with that. In fact, introverts are kind of my jam. And here’s why. Introverts love process and systems and methods and language, right? Well, guess what, that’s what I’m teaching them in my classes every week, our How to Not wing it, how to not go out there and just do it and figure it out on your own. Let’s actually give you step by step model of how to do it and then we can make it your own you can own it and create it your own way. But I think with that, you know, no one’s born a rainmaker. I think that’s, that’s total BS. Yes, there are introverts and extroverts. But at the end of the day, even extroverts need process because they could be going on like me, I used to just be everywhere all over the place, versus following something that we know is a proven way of getting something accomplished. And so that’s really the key here. I want to take a moment to thank all of our panelists, David, Sharon, Steve and Gary, I want to thank our sponsors legalese money, Penny practice, Panther, hopefully everybody that is listening, got some great takeaways from this panel, be that lawyer live Coach’s Corner, guess what everybody we’re going to be doing this every single month. I think at some point I wrote down when the next one is but keep on top you’ll see the social media Post going up to check us out in January for our next Coach’s Corner. And again, this is another way to help you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [30:16]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes