BE THAT LAWYER LIVE!: International Business Development for Lawyers with Clare Fanner and Catherine O’Connell Part 2

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Clare Fanner, and Catherine O’Connell discuss:

  • Producing content for SEO, social media, and the desired exposure.
  • Collaboration not competition with other lawyers.
  • Where to invest time and get business from existing clients.
  • What to consider before doing business internationally.

Key Takeaways:

  • Creating content is less of an issue, but how to show that content trips up a lot of lawyers. As the lawyer, you don’t have to write the entire article, just jot down a few sentences and the rest can be worked out later with other sources.
  • Collaboration opens up the way you build your business whereas competition closes off avenues.
  • Anything worth doing is going to take some time to do.
  • Everyone can do business development that suits them.

“Collaboration is the key to business development in 2022 and beyond.” —  Catherine O’Connell

Connect with Catherine O’Connell:  





Connect with Clare Fanner: 




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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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lawyers, people, business, claire, law firms, relationships, clients, low hanging fruit, steve, collaborating, uk, content, japan, japanese, great, basics, marketing, katherine, talk, firm


Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Catherine O’Connell, Clare Fanner, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther


Narrator  [00:05]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:27]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. This is Steve Fretzin, your host, I hope you’re having a wonderful day. If you caught our last episode, it was part one or part two and be that lawyer, international business development, how do we do business development in our country, the US and other countries like the UK and Japan. And I have some wonderful friends of mine that were kind enough to come on the show, Claire Pfanner. And Catherine O’Connell. So they are going to be doing part two, so stick around, check it out, enjoy the show, take care, let’s stay with the subject but a little different twist. And that is lawyers. From my experience, you know, they struggle with content, they struggle with producing content that can be written, that can be video that can be audio that can be whatever, but they don’t realize I don’t think all the time that that content can be so critical to how you use your social media, how you build up SEO, search engine optimization on your website, how you’re getting the exposure that you’re looking for, to be to be known and to be authentic and to be liked and know, you know, trust and all that that Claire said, So are they missing the boat on Qantas not missing the boat on content in your, in your country’s credit, let’s start with you. And then we’ll go to Katherine,


Clare Fanner  [01:41]

we’ve got much better. I mean, I guess the challenge is the same around the world. In the first instance, the marketers were saying to the lawyers, we need content, because that will help us with the website being more visible. So the SEO piece, it will also help us market you if we understand better what you’re doing and if clients better understand it. So that was the challenge in the start of this conversation many years ago. Now I think because of social media, because of this understanding now that Google does matter, and therefore being found on Google does matter. And the only way that can happen is a some great content in different formats. So not just static words, but the audio, the video, etc, the social media channels. So content is still a challenge for many. So a lot of lawyers, a lot of the conversations I will have is, you know, how do I you know, what should I write about? And how do I structure it? How do I write it. And that’s where I think we’ve got two types of lawyers, if you like we’ve got those that are very uncomfortable. And those that are totally comfortable, that are active on social media posting their stuff, their authentic self, comfortable with a style that works for them, happy days, the rest, that’s where I think we can help where we can hold their hand we can we can help the youngsters coming in new and profession, who are naturally comfortable with social media. And just by pointing them in the right direction around the boundaries within which they need to play because we do need to get that bit right still, nor is too important to topic for people to be going to off piste. But yeah, giving them a structure and making it easier for them. And a lot of the people that I work with, what I’ll often say to them is, look, you know the law, you know, something’s about to happen or just happened. It’s important, and you understand what that means to clients. But you might struggle with how to communicate that to just send me an email, with some bullet points or some dialogue that just tells me what’s happened or happening and why it matters. We can then help craft that into the right style to make it appealing and relevant and attractive. And of course, there’s a bunch of people that sell those services. So law firms either do it themselves in house, the mixture of their marketing people in their lawyers doing it, or they buy in copywriters, or pre produced content and do it that way to the content is less of an issue because law firms now know it’s important how they do it is the biggest challenge.


Steve Fretzin  [04:02]

But I think there’s a there’s a takeaway here. And that’s, you know, one of the things I love to do on the show is give takeaways. And that is if you have as a lawyer in idea, something that’s going on something that you may want to talk about, you don’t have to write the whole article, just write down a couple sentences. And then you can you know, it’s that’s what comedians do, right? They don’t have jokes, like worked out from beginning, they write down a funny thought, and then they can work it out later, or maybe hand it off to a professional writer. And so that’s I think, a great point, Claire that you can, you don’t have to have everything worked out, you can just have some of it worked out. And then there’s a lot of external sources, internal sources you can use to take that to the next level to actually produce an article in interview something. Yeah,


Clare Fanner  [04:43]

totally. And I think the other part that perhaps I should have mentioned is if you’re lacking inspiration, or you don’t know where to start, and that’s where US marketers can kind of go hey, here’s examples. There’s always something in the news. I mean, I’m sure you guys on this call have the same I have got too much on Then my challenge is the opposite, which is when can I oppose this stuff? When can I use this stuff? Because of course, you can’t bombard people with everything all in one go. But that’s a habit. That’s because I’m used to it. That’s because I know what I’m looking for. That’s because it’s my job to look at this stuff and have this. A lawyer’s job is to be a very good lawyer in whatever discipline or an area they are a lawyer. So they sometimes forget to do the thing that says, How can I tell people, I’ve got all this knowledge, and I can provide this solution. So we as marketers, and BD people can help that process? Because we can see, you know, hang on this thing’s happened, or I’ve seen these firms are talking about this, why aren’t we talking about this? So we can go to the lawyers with the ideas as well to help it happen?



Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I


Catherine O’Connell  [05:43]

think I loved the way you talked there about people find it very hard to communicate out what they want to say clear. And I think I’ve got a good example of that here. Because it’s, it’s what I do to help other lawyers. Strangely enough, I’m in a law firm. And my own business is, of course, being a corporate commercial lawyer. But the way the market is structured in Japan is that you can’t do all the kinds of laws law that you would want to do, right, especially foreign lawyers, we cannot really advise and Japanese law, but I know a bunch of super amazing specialist, Japanese lawyers, they run their own firms, small law firms. So we collaborate together. And I think collaboration is this key to business development, in 2022, and beyond. So it’s no skin off my nose to be working with them. And we achieve more together. I’ve got one current Japanese lawyer, I’ll give you an example, who’s who’s an employment law expert. He finds it difficult to communicate his message, clearly. But he’s a really bright spark. And he’s got lots of really great practical examples. So I’m not being a lawyer. When I worked with him, I’m being a more of a consultant or a coach, that as I’ve just said, it’s almost like what you’re doing exactly what you’re doing. So I get sit down with him, we go through the PowerPoint materials, we work out the mistakes and the English, I coach them on how to speak to the slides, how to pause how to emphasize things that Japanese people have no idea normally how to do generally speaking, and no disrespect there. But it’s generally not a skill that is taught. So that’s what I lend my skills on that way. And so we go out to chambers of commerce, who’ve got a captured audience for us their membership and deliver the content to the members, their corporate members who are dying to hear this information. How do they avoid sexual harassment chat charges? How do they not be caught doing harassment for people who are working from home during COVID-19? All this kind of thing. So I help him moderate the webinar, ask all the questions present confidently. And that’s the sort of way of collaboration now that I helped with. So it’s no not all about getting the legal work. It’s about collaborating with another lawyer. So then we share the content, we go to other chambers and we pitch the same thing. If I have clients who need labor law advice, which they always do, who do I go to him, and then he’ll send me other things as well. So it’s so when when I think collaborating with other lawyers, people think it’s a competition, but it’s actually not, it’s one of the best ways to get a mutual out, that’s going to be beneficial.


Steve Fretzin  [08:16]

And I think it’s always been the case where, where lawyers get competitive, or they get a mindset of being very careful around other attorneys that they’re going to steal their business, or they’re just getting highly competitive. And I think that sort of changed with the opening up of the country, the world zoom, maybe did some of that, where now like, even myself, like I used to not really want to talk to too many coaches, quite frankly, because I just felt like they were going to steal my ideas or that they were competitors. To me, I’ve turned it’s turned out enough. This is the podcast or wherever, like my mindset is completely flipped in like the last three years, where now I just I love engaging with other people in my space that can be used to that could be the 10 other lawyer coaches I know in the US, that could be just just wanting to talk with everybody. And ultimately, it just has opened up the way that I’m building my business and not worrying about competitors so much really thinking about the look, how many lawyers are there? And there’s only a few of us like it’s not, it’s not really that competitive. Now, lawyers can say the same thing, right? They can say Well, look, you know, just in Illinois, to give you an example, not the US and Illinois, there’s 60,000 lawyers, okay. In the US, there’s a couple million and maybe half of them are in private practice. So it’s not there’s no shortage of them. But how do you guys seem to take in the way that lawyers look at competition or look at that competitive side and getting business maybe from years past? Let’s go to Claire on that.


Clare Fanner  [09:49]

Yeah, interesting one. So I’ve mentioned the law firm marketing Club, which I set up in COVID time, so we’ve been up and running for a year and a half, and the concept is quite simple. It’s skipped law firms in the same room, too. collaborate and talk to each other from a marketing and a strategy perspective. So it’s not not necessarily the lawyers, although we do get managing partners involved in that. And that the feedback I get from all of them without fail is, this is incredibly helpful. You never have all the answers. It’s great to learn from other people, it’s great way of almost combining resources for the greater good of the sector. So we as a sector can become better overall, we can provide something better for clients. It’s so the feedback from those that are part of my community is all positive about the benefits of collaboration. But that’s a massive mind shift from when I came into the sector 15 years ago, when what you’ve described, which is this, you know, actually, you’re my competition, so I’m not going to talk to you, I’m not going to share ideas, you know, and if you’re, I mean, how many times I sat and talked to law firms and said, Well, if they’re involved in that event, then we’re not going to be involved, because can’t have two law firms sponsoring same event, and there’s a place for that, don’t get me wrong, there’s a place for that. So I think it’s a gradual shift. And I would say we’ve got the forward thinking, growing learning generation that get that collaboration is the way forward that we will never have all the answers ourselves, you know, I am a better person, when I talk to Steve and Catherine, to get ideas from you what’s working in your world? How do you do it? What does that look like? How can I make that happen? And if I can bring that into my world that will just enhance my offering. And then like you, Steve, I don’t see collaborating with people who do the same stuff as I do. As a negative thing for me and my business, quite the opposite. Because I’m going to back myself and say, You know what, I’m good enough at what I do that I can stand up, and I can talk and I can, my personality can shine through. And I will also give as much as I possibly can to people, because that’s part of them understanding the value I can bring. So does it help me win more business? Since I set up the law firm marketing club and created this community? People turned to me and said, Oh, you’re one of the leading legal, effective marketing professionals. Can you help? So it works all round, it works for the law firms, it works for people like us.


Steve Fretzin  [12:13]

Let’s get let’s get your take on it, then I’ve got one or two more questions to kind of wrap things up in the next 10 or 15 minutes. Okay.


Catherine O’Connell  [12:19]

Completely agree. You know, getting the same people in the same room is absolutely fine. My podcast, I interview Japanese and foreign lawyers, women lawyers, mostly who are working in Japan. Recently, I invited a lawyer from a large US litigation firm to come on the show. And her marketing team said, can’t do that. Katherine’s a competitor. And I do not do litigation. I’m not a big US firm. Oh, my goodness, was I surprised? I said, just totally not I do careers of people. So it’s about not the work you’re doing. It’s about how you got from America to Japan, and how you’ve become a successful lawyer and what stumbling blocks you got over. So that really made me think about it, and how people may be perceiving things in the market. I’m still wondering that one, but the same thing. And it’s a bit like your peer advisory getting people together, Steve, I do that with a round table with General Counsel. The last one we had was at IBM’s office in Tokyo and it was me and a general counsel got together and we gathered 10 in house legal counsel, GCS together at the office, had drinks actually, that when we had breakfast, nice breakfast, Chatham House rules, people share their information across the table, the things that they’re having difficulty with privacy. Data, privacy was the topic. Before that we do a survey, we get their ideas on certain questions, we share that and pie charts. And then it starts the discussion off. And at the end, they do say if they’re okay for it to go out generically as a list of takeaways that we share on social media, they can all share internally in their legal teams, and it’s just brilliant. It’s a meshed knowledge. Why would you not go to the source of everything that’s happening across people’s desks? So that’s a really good way to and I think if people aren’t doing those sorts of things, they’re missing out. And sure, yeah, it takes time to do it. But nothing worth doing is not going to take you some time. So I think those sorts of innovative ways of and they’re quite easy, really, they’re not maybe innovative at all, just getting people around a table, getting people in the same room who kind of might seem like they’re the same people. They’re competitive. It’s so not and I think the three of us have shared that right now, which is just incredible. And I hope people take that away with them.


Steve Fretzin  [14:37]

Yeah, that’s terrific.


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Steve Fretzin  [16:07]

In so in moving into kind of wrapping things up the one of the last questions I have is regarding the low hanging fruit in the various countries we’re representing and Slean, I may bring you in on this as well. So prep up. But like in the US, you know, I’m always looking to help my clients go after low hanging fruit. So the way I see it is there’s there’s business development on this side of the mountain, there’s marketing on this side of the mountain, if they can do both, it’s going to meet up at the peak. And that’s where, you know, they the real success happens. But when I talk about like my clients, lawyers, where they where they need to invest their time, it’s really about how do they get business from their existing clients. And this may be universal. I don’t know that. I’m stepping out everybody here. But it’s okay that if we’re all the same, because because maybe that’s just a universal thing. The problem with lawyers in the US is they’re very uncomfortable, asking for something asking for a referral for a for a contact from a GC to another GC, from a CEO to another CEO. Not only are they uncomfortable, they don’t know how to do it, they don’t have the right language process. So I spent a lot of time working with my clients, helping to get them comfortable with process and language to make that happen. And that’s when you know, things start really popping. But if they if they if they’re just in their shell about it, it’s just not going to work. So Claire, is that exactly the same in the UK? A little different. UK help us understand that that the low what you’re advising people on as it relates to business development and low hanging fruit?


Clare Fanner  [17:38]

Yeah, it’s exactly the same. Okay, so it’s the same story, as you’ve just described, the obvious start point has to be existing clients and relationships. And law firms are not traditionally great at that, when you look at it across the whole firm, individual lawyers are generally very good at kind of, you know, I’ve got these clients, and I’m gonna look after them and keep in touch with them and so on. But that didn’t know how is the second part, I think, which you touched on there? Which is what what do I do? How do I do it? So a few years back, there would be a very one size fits all approach to business development, which is, you know, go networking, go to these events. And, you know, and meet people that way? Well, it’s all very well saying go to a networking event and meet people. But if that person doesn’t have the confidence or the skills to go out, walk into that room, and to walk up to people and introduce themselves and doesn’t feel comfortable to do that, then what they’re going to do, and this does happen increasingly less is you know, they go to that room, and they stand in the corner on their own or they go in to talk to their colleagues who happen to be there as well. And they actually don’t do any networking with the people they’re there to network with. So what what the low hanging fruit, I think, is to give everybody a relevant and appropriate business development plan, no matter who they are, what its level of experience they are, if they’re new into the firm, they’re a trainee, up and coming professional, experienced professional, everyone can do BD that suits them. And that might be going to networking, it might be taking people out for lunches or coffees, it might be producing a list for other people to then work on and look after because other people have got those better interpersonal skills, it might be writing articles and content. And I think again, this is where we can add value, which is help people make it easy, because I think some people if you say do some business development, if you’re nervous, if you don’t know where to start, that’s an enormous mountain, you’ve just put in front of them. You sit down with him and say talk to me about what you do and what you’re good at and what you’re comfortable with. You can come up with


Steve Fretzin  [19:36]

a plan. Well, and the other thing is with a plan, you know, you don’t you can really evaluate everything that opportunities that that an individual lawyer has or law firm has and determine where the best time is going to be spent. And then it’s just about educating through the plan and through additional training, how to go after the business that is right. And so like I joke a lot about it’s like a table of money, just a pile of money on A table around next to a lawyer and the lawyers been walking around it for years. You know, they just don’t know how to walk into it into all that all that extra business. So, Catherine, what’s your take on this?


Catherine O’Connell  [20:11]

Well, I’ve just got a visual on table full of money anyway. Well, you know, Japan, let me just say it’s a completely 100% relationship orientated culture, particularly when it comes to doing business and law is no exception. They I guess, Japanese operate within what anthropologists call this kind of high texture, high context, culture. So communication mostly is nonverbal. So you’ve really got to be watching not what people are saying at an event, not what people are saying, in their blog, what’s what they’re not saying. Right. And you got to be really conscious of that. The other thing that Claire mentioned as well, it’s it’s going to the existing clients, the old 8020 rule. Right, you will get more most of your business from the 20%. And keep going back to them. And then there’s always the friend of a friend that I find and I do ask friends who have come to me do you know, if somebody will keep me in mind, I asked for testimonials. I don’t sit back and wait for it. And I think lawyers just need to ask, people will generally speaking, not be offended. If you ask for something, they’re actually quite flattered, and are very happy to help. So a lot of lawyers will not go out and do that. They think it’s breezy. It’s grimy, grabby, it’s none of that. It’s about standing up for what you’re worth. And it’s about asking for something that has already been delivered to you just want to in a particular context, right? And so go don’t get it don’t


Steve Fretzin  [21:37]

get that. I’m gonna give you another visual. And that’s what I call head trash. Lawyers have head trash. So what’s that? That’s all the junk in their brains that say, this is going to be embarrassing, this is going to be rejection? This is not this client? Why am I asked? I don’t deserve this? Or I’ve Why am I asking something of someone who’s already giving me a bunch of business? And your take Katherine, which I totally agree with? And is that it’s like, if I know the top brain surgeon in the world, and my uncle has a brain tumor will? Do I want to refer that brain surgeon or do I want to let him you know, find someone on his own, I’d rather give someone the best, then let them figure it out on their own. And so when you’re getting in front of having a lawyer get in front of a GC, a CEO, etc, that where there’s an introduction made to a great lawyer, well, that greatest resource that that CEO or GC may have ever come across. Well, how did that happen? Well, it happened because someone was proactive in making that ask, I want to hit up Selena in Canada. Talk about this. What’s the comfort level Selena going after that low hanging fruit and



from your take?



I think most people are kind of getting into the right mindset that, you know, scientifically, it is much easier to bring in business from a exists someone who knows your work, rather than trying to develop a new relationship to that point. And just thinking back on my own journey. Sometimes I’ve randomly met people at a networking event or cocktail event. And it took me seven or eight years of knowing them and probably talking to them at least three times a year for seven years before they’re like, Oh, something came up that



maybe helped me with, so and then. But I



think we always think of networking as well. I gotta, I gotta go meet new people. I can’t just people. I don’t know why we don’t think about the money on the table right in front of us. Right. And, yeah, I think I think part of it is just education. And you’ve helped me a lot with that. Steve is like, you know, he’s, so my problem is I know a ton of people very shallowly, they can meet them, like, once at an event or something, and then I’ll link up with them on LinkedIn, but then I’ll never speak to them again. So that’s, that’s always been my issue. People are slowly coming around, but I don’t know why it’s not more obvious to lawyers, without someone telling them that, obviously, you should start with the low hanging fruit. With that. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [23:58]

it’s it’s, um, again, I think a lot of its education. A lot of it is the fact that that lawyers in law school and lawyers at a law firm level aren’t learning business development. They’re not understanding the process approach language to make things that are maybe traditionally uncomfortable, comfortable. And so that’s why we’re in the space, right? We’re trying to change that and help people get through some of the things that are more challenging. The wrap up to the show, if if we’re okay with that we’re doing just a few minutes over. But I think this is an important way to wrap it up a question. If somebody is interested in doing business from the US to the UK, or Japan or Canada, or someone in Japan is interested in doing business in the UK, like we can work that angle, what are some of the subtleties or some of the things they have to consider before approaching or to expand what they’ve already been doing? So like Kevin Thompson is on the call and like he’s doing International, a lot of international work. He’s figured out some of the subtleties I’m assuming but But Claire, what are some things that people I want to do business in the UK need to consider to make that a reality?


Clare Fanner  [25:05]

It’s a tough one to answer, Steve from, from my perspective, because it’s not as straightforward. I think where it boils down to, is the relationship piece and coming in cold. Who are you? What are your credentials? Why you? What do you offer that’s different. So there’s some basics in there that any any new entrant to any market would have. So for me, it would be about having the right relationships, collaborating with the right partners in the UK, to connect you with the right people. And it will then relate to who you know how what you offer what’s different. So having a clear message, and positioning yourself now all of that becomes much more doable. If we do all the basics that we’ve already talked about on this session, which is we’re visible. We’re writing helpful content, whether that’s on our websites, or on social media, or a mix of both. We’re developing our relationships without we’ve got a good relationship with, with relationships with clients, who are saying nice things about us. So I think there’s the good hygiene factors, then there’s going to be the practical aspects, which I’m definitely not qualified to comment on around. How can somebody in the US or Japan conduct business in the UK? And clearly, there’ll be some hoops to jump through and some some technicalities to see too. But my biggest advice would be get the basics right? Get those relationships in place and show up in the right way.


Steve Fretzin  [26:31]

Yeah, that’s great. Catherine.


Catherine O’Connell  [26:32]

Totally, totally, totally. Obviously, you’ve got now got someone in the UK, you’ve got myself, we have networks, we’re a first point of contact for you. I would say, we’re not there just to get the work. I’m certainly not there. But because I can’t do all the work. But I will certainly know someone who can help you. In the case of your IP friend was that Ryan? Was it? Was it right? It


Steve Fretzin  [26:55]

was Kevin? Kevin? Yes. I


Catherine O’Connell  [26:57]

mean, Kevin will know that and Japan, you know, trademarks do you have to get yours over the counter the trademark application into the, you know, the patent Bureau before anybody else, whereas in the US, it’s, you’ve been using it for a long time. It’s yours. So those differences? You know, I know a little bit about that. But I’m not an IP lawyer, with expertise. But I know who you took could go to, right. So it’s finding out who’s there, who’s someone who’s connected to and I think LinkedIn is a really great place. Just don’t hit people up with Hi, my name is and I do this, can I sell you this right get to know people, it’s so important the know, like, and then you know, think about something like that later on getting to know people, you know, as I said to before, Chambers of Commerce is a massive Chamber of Commerce here, the American Chamber of Commerce is 700. Members, a lot of them are lawyers, you get to become members of those, you know, invest in those relationships once again, and meet people and then work out how you can come into the country. But certainly you need people on the ground, because that’s where the the network starts, right? And the ripple, you plop it in the pond, that stone and it goes out to everybody.


Steve Fretzin  [28:01]

And I may have the perfect example. And it actually happened yesterday. So this is I wish I could have made this up. But it actually happened. So one of my clients who’s in the IP space, I mentioned, look, I’m looking to meet some lawyers in the UK. Do you know when he said sure, he introduces me to a very well renowned attorney in the UK, who oversees over 200 attorneys in just his group alone. He’s got a very large, firm. And so he sets me up with a call what I call a quality introduction. So we then get something scheduled. And it’s not about me, asking for business or going after business is actually to get him on my podcast. And that’s not a stick. That’s the That’s whatever. That’s that’s the real thing. Like, I’m interested in having him talk about business and business development in the UK how he built his book, as a rainmaker. And could that lead to business? Yes, that could lead to business. But whatever the case might be, is, the introduction was key. I don’t think this guy would have responded to a cold solicitation or even a LinkedIn solicitation. And then to talk about having a value add, I’d liked I’d like something that’s going to pump up your ego, pump up your brand, pump up what you know, and are you willing to talk about it? And the answer is yes. And then to get that moving forward, that’s the beginning of a relationship. That’s going to take time but that’s a few steps in a proper direction without asking for anything that’s going to put someone off or out. So I think I


Clare Fanner  [29:25]

concur. 100% with everything you’ve said on Indeed, Katherine and I would add to that a few steps in the right direction spent doing it the right way, will say save you many wasted hours and days later down the line if you’re trying to go in cold start relationships and networks and


Steve Fretzin  [29:43]

sweat it but it starts with that low hanging fruit of the client that knows you like she trusts you to your point Claire earlier that can make those inroads and make that happen. And it’s much easier for me again, you know, with with a podcast and you know, in having groups like you’ve got Are the mastermind groups and you’ve got the plug in there’s, it’s just easier to meet people through those channels than, hey, let’s talk about how I can sell you something or let’s talk about how we can do business together,


Catherine O’Connell  [30:10]

right? Sure isn’t, I mean, following following themes on LinkedIn, these come up right in front of your face following a certain group, I had a group come up. And like your story, Steve, where a person I know was nominated to a new board that’s been established, I want to be on that board eventually. But that’s not what I went in with. I went in with the congratulations. I did a screenshot of his name from the LinkedIn post, I put that in the the message that I sent to him. He said, Well, thank you so much, it’s no one’s ever done that for me. I said, I’d love to do something with your group. He said, We want you to come. And we’ve seen I’ve looked at your profile, come and speak to our group about a certain topic that they are set up for this particular board. And I said, fantastic. He said that he no get unlike you. And then maybe you know, there might be a chance for you to come on next year. And I’m thinking how did he read my mind. But that said, I congratulated he offered he said, we’ve already got approval for it. Let’s just work out when it can happen. And that’s just from small time piece of my time to say, congratulations, I saw you got there. That is fantastic. And we just blew blew it out from there. So I’ll report back next year if I get the position. But you know, it’s just tiny things like that, that I’m human and really mean. And getting people’s heart to heart. That’s where you start from. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [31:29]

really good stuff. I think we’re gonna wrap up. So let’s just go real quick, Claire, kind of final thoughts and about business development marketing in the UK, and then Katherine, and then we’re gonna wrap up the show. So kind of a 32nd. Recap.


Clare Fanner  [31:41]

Yeah, well, it’s well, what’s been reassuring, and not not a surprise, necessarily, is that it sounds like it’s pretty well, the same wherever you are in the world. If I just take our sample size from the room here, the challenges and the opportunities are the same. And I think we can, we can over complicate it. But actually, let’s get back to basics, let’s be authentic, be our authentic selves, let’s build those relationships. Let’s not be afraid to have opinions and be a little bit different. But do the basics, be visible, be there, keep in touch with your clients, build those relationships and build your networks in a wider sense. And be you do it another way.


Steve Fretzin  [32:15]

It’s common, it’s common sense. But it’s also hard for people that are inundated in work and billable hours and, and just keeping their head down to think strategically and tactically about how to execute. So again, don’t be afraid to you know, talk to me, Claire, Katherine, other experts in the field to get help on this because it isn’t something you need to feel alone on or that you’re that you’re not supported there. There’s lots of people that would like to support you in these efforts. Okay. Yeah, that’s


Catherine O’Connell  [32:42]

exactly right. It’s about relationships and thinking about it as a givers mindset. The givers mindset, what can I give to this other person first, before I go in with what I need, or what I want? What can I do for them? How can I make their life just slightly easier? Can I introduce them to someone? Can I do something for them? And I think in the past, to Steve, I’ve shared with you a tips for handling meetings with Japanese people. And I’m happy to give that away for anyone who wants to come to me for that. It’s really basic, but essentially, you see common sense common sense is not that common, apparently so happy to share anything that might have struck up with you that you want to be late thinking about how they’ve got another spec sheet some company set up and trademarks and things like that, which are not my area, but I’m happy to give those away. And you know, again, that’s giving away in order to make your life a little bit easier and your business. I was in Japan in my case, and I’m sure that’s the same for clear and for you to see.





Steve Fretzin  [33:38]

So Catherine Claire, Selena, thank you all for coming and kind of sharing your wisdom and adding some value to this program. Be that lawyer live gone international, you know, we’re just over spent about 70 minutes we’ve been doing this and lots of takeaways, lots of opportunities to learn and understand that while there are some cultural differences, ultimately, it comes down to relationships, authenticity, it comes down to having a plan and executing and of course getting some help. It’s not something you need to do alone. Well, everybody that’s a wrap up of be that lawyer live and again, international business development with my friends, Claire Pfanner, and Catherine O’Connell really sharing their wisdom. Hopefully you got some great takeaways, and you enjoyed the two part series. We’ll be doing this again with the women in law coming up soon, but hopefully you’re enjoying the show. If you love be that lawyer. Please don’t be shy about telling other lawyers about it and given us that five star review on your Apple phone or wherever you’re listening to this podcast. We really appreciate it all about helping you to be that lawyer someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be safe be well, we’ll talk again real soon.


Narrator  [34:51]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. You Visit Steve’s website For additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes