BE THAT LAWYER LIVE – Tech Talk Part 2

In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Charlie Uniman, Colin Levy, and Maya Markovich discuss:

  • Best questions to ask a legal tech vendor.
  • Choosing the right tech choice, not just the impulsive decision.
  • Looking for bottlenecks in your firm’s day-to-day productions and bringing your team into the changes.
  • Pros and cons of working with early stage legal tech startup firms.
  • Budgeting for legal tech.

Key Takeaways:

  • While you should ask questions about data security and customer support, you want to tailor your questions to what solution you are looking for.
  • Involve your team in the tech choices from the beginning. They are the ones who are going to be using it and you want to make sure it is the right fit for them.
  • Depending on your practice area, there may be different tech needs. However, all firms should look into good operations technology to help their firm run most efficiently.
  • Look at the use of the tools and what your needs are before setting your budget.

“Once you’re comfortable with the tech you’re using, don’t be ashamed of it. Tell your clients about it, let them know that you’re tech forward, and let them know how they can benefit from your use of the tech.” —  Charlie Uniman

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[00:00:00] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:27] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. And today we’ve got a great Be That Lawyer live tech talk for you. It’s part two. We had a great session in our last episode, and we’re going to be continuing with Colin and Charlie and Maya to answer the toughest legal tech questions that are coming our way.

[00:00:43] Steve Fretzin: All right, enjoy the show, everybody. So here’s another question that came up, and I just want to put it out there. What questions are best to ask? A legal tech vendor that’s trying to sell a product. So let’s say someone’s talking to Clio, Smokeball, Practice Panther, or any of those, or any legal tech company.

[00:01:01] Steve Fretzin: Are there questions that are good to ask that will help them make a better decision or know that it’s a better fit? Colin, you want to give that a shot?

[00:01:09] Colin Levy: Sorry, I broke up for a minute there. I had a weird internet issue. Oh,

[00:01:13] Steve Fretzin: okay. No problem. Well, let’s, we’ll, we’ll jump back into it, Maya. I’d have a

[00:01:16] Maya Markovich: really easy answer for that.

[00:01:18] Maya Markovich: And that is. Number one, it’s very specific to the solution and the challenge that you’re, that you’re trying to address. So it’s almost impossible to generalize. I would say you obviously want to know questions around data security. Um, you obviously want to know questions about, uh, customer support, those kinds of things.

[00:01:36] Maya Markovich: But my easy answer is that, and again, you know, I’m just, I’m just, uh, just the messenger here, but, uh, the legal tech, the legal technology hub has put an unbelievable amount of work. Thank you. Into solutions, specific lists of questions, literally, if you are, you know, if you pay for the, I think it’s their premium level, I’m, I’m actually not sure how they do it, but you have access specifically to like, you know, evaluation matrices or the top contenders in any particular field.

[00:02:09] Maya Markovich: I know, because I actually put some together for them for their, um, time entry and solutions category. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel. There are experts that have put that together. And I, I mean, if you’re thinking seriously about evaluating and figuring out the pros and cons of various tools, then just start, I would

[00:02:30] Steve Fretzin: say, start there.

[00:02:32] Steve Fretzin: Okay, good. Uh, so Colin, the question was really around lead. There are legal tech vendors that are selling different tools to lawyers and. What are questions that we should be prepared to ask to make sure that it’s a good fit, make sure we, you know, don’t get it and then maybe don’t use it or, or find that we’re in some long term contract.

[00:02:50] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know. Like there’s a lot of different ways to take kind of skin that cat. Yeah, no,

[00:02:54] Colin Levy: there are a lot of questions one should ask, you know, some that immediately come to mind include, you know, you know, have you worked with companies like ours, you know, our type of business, you know, what’s the, you know, do you.

[00:03:08] Colin Levy: Can we do sort of a trial period, you know, with some users, you know, proof of concept type of thing, you know, obviously data security and kind of, you know, validity and financial backing would be other questions I would want to understand as well. I think you would also want to look at, you know, the type of support you get from the product.

[00:03:27] Colin Levy: Um, some of these products require some degree of implementation. What does that look like? What type of support does that, do I get with that? How long does that take? You know, what kind of, you know, what are some of the most common questions or issues that arise and use of this tool? Uh, there’s a, there’s a whole host of, of different areas, I think, to go after and, and quite frankly, it’s important to ask those questions.

[00:03:49] Colin Levy: You know, there are a lot of questions to be asked and you want to be asking them because this is not a decision you want to take lightly and it’s also one you want to be sure that is right, not just for you, if you’re the decision maker. But also for your users, quite frankly, they’re going to be ones that are going to be using the damn thing.

[00:04:05] Colin Levy: So you want them to be involved in the process from the get go as well. And I apologize. I tend to be fairly blunt when I talk about things, so. Uh, if anyone didn’t like hearing that little bad word, I apologize. Well,

[00:04:15] Steve Fretzin: but that’s a lot between the two of you. That’s a lot of really good questions to ask, because I think that one of the greatest fears that we all have with buying something new and shiny is that it’s a not going to work for us.

[00:04:26] Steve Fretzin: B, we’re going to overspend and C, uh, you know, it’s, it’s just, you know, we’re going to be, you know, kicking ourselves because we did it and we shouldn’t have. There’s something that’s right around the corner that’s even better, and we didn’t even know about it. Charlie, any final thoughts on this, about the questions to ask?

[00:04:40] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I

[00:04:41] Charlie Uniman: hate to be a downer here, but, uh, it’s an important question to consider, I think. And that is, what’s the likelihood that you, the LegalTech vendor, will be around? Well, the long term I invite be around. I mean, just that, uh, it’s a difficult, uh, funding environment for all startups worldwide and legal tech startups are, are not an exception.

[00:05:03] Charlie Uniman: So, uh, get a handle on, uh, who’s invested in them, uh, what their financial runway is, what plans they may have to make sure that they stay in business, because the last thing you want to do. Uh, among other things is, uh, it’s get all trained up, invest some money, uh, get your people happy with the product.

[00:05:25] Charlie Uniman: And then discover that the company doesn’t have the financial wherewithal be able to, uh, to make it in the longterm. So ask those hard questions, speak to the investors if they’ll let you do so. Uh, Oh, and one other thing, see if you can get some testimonials, uh, and a wide range of them. So you’re not just speaking to people who are in the can for the particular vendor and, um, and then check with other firms to get word of mouth on the particular vendor, but, uh, seriously, nowadays, folks.

[00:05:56] Charlie Uniman: Do try to figure out how long standing this company is, if you can do so.

[00:06:01] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really, really good. And I know earlier I had the question about like, what are the top, you know, legal tech products for startups? And, you know, Charlie mentioned some practice management and I jumped in and I don’t know that I got All the answers that I wanted from, uh, I didn’t really ask you Colin and Maya.

[00:06:17] Steve Fretzin: So Colin, what are, what are kind of like your two favorite or one or two technologies that you think are really important for startups to look at? No, no,

[00:06:25] Charlie Uniman: I have to interrupt. If I may, you’re talking about startup law firm.

[00:06:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Startup law firm. Not, not just startups generally. No, no. Startup law firms, right?

[00:06:33] Steve Fretzin: So I’m, I’m starting a new firm. I’m leaving my big firm to do my own gig. There’s a number of technologies that are going to be put in front of me. What should I be looking at and into? Yeah. So I

[00:06:44] Colin Levy: think, um, in general, I mean, we talked about this a little bit, I think, earlier, but in general, I would say, you know, you want, um, centrally, uh, some form of practice management software that can handle billing, can handle intake, can handle sort of managing basic documents.

[00:06:58] Colin Levy: You want to make sure that you have some technology to store, maintain your kind of corporate governance documents as well. Um, you know, financials, that type of thing. I also think that it’s, you know, arguably I would say really important to invest in some type of technology that provides a level of data security around your, around your files, around your data.

[00:07:22] Colin Levy: I realize you’re, you know, you’re just starting out as a law firm, but, you know, look, you know, companies that have any type of data are target. So everyone’s a target essentially for data fee. So you really want to be sure that. You invest in protecting the data that you store, you receive, and not just receive, but also tend to back and forth as well, like find portal protection as well, because, you know, last thing you need is, you know, clients data being stolen from you, uh, which has happened before countless times with countless

[00:07:57] Maya Markovich: companies.

[00:07:57] Maya Markovich: Yeah. I would just add to that, that I think, you know, without more specifics about the type of law, um, that the startup law firm would be doing. I want to point out that a lot of what we’re talking about here is really on the operations side. Um, it’s general business of law questions, which you really cannot ignore.

[00:08:16] Maya Markovich: And you’ve got to, you know, you’re so much better off if you get those things from the, in place from the get go. Secondly, I would say, depending on your practice of law, there are dozens, if not hundreds of, uh, practice specific tools. Um, if you’re a big company or, you know, if you have a big budget, I’m looking at something like litera that has been, you know, acquiring companies and solutions to really be, um, a best of breed across, uh, a number of different types of practice areas and types of challenges and solutions, um, you know, also if you’re a litigation firm, I mean, you’re going to need something, uh, to do virtual depositions.

[00:08:58] Maya Markovich: Uh, that’s a great company, um, that I’ve been working with both politically that’s doing. Security, very security lockdown, SOC two certified virtual deposition, the whole that most law firms don’t even think about with their quarter quarters. For example, you’ve also got, you know, if you’re a corporate transactional attorney, uh, shop, you’re going to need a virtual M& A management platform, just, you know, DocuSign.

[00:09:25] Maya Markovich: You know, I mean, there are, there are very, you know, there are very, and I would just recommend honing in again on like, what, what is your day to day? Spend some time thinking about the bottlenecks that you currently experience or that you did experience in prior situation, who’s going to be managing these tools and how easy is it going to be to get the support you need if something goes wrong?

[00:09:48] Maya Markovich: Oh, by the way. And on that note, I wanted to also just add that my perspective, which the foil to Charlie’s very sage advice about looking at, you know, the viability of certain companies. I will say in, you know, legal tech is still a young sector. We worked with dozens of really great early stage startups.

[00:10:08] Maya Markovich: Some of them did not, did not make it. Some of them did. And our. You know, huge and, and making lawyers lives the world over, you know, much better, I will say the flip side of that is that you have an opportunity to really shape and refine a product that has an excellent idea for your, for your own optimal use when you’re working with earlier stage startups, and those startups are very eager to work with clients and get that customer feedback.

[00:10:39] Maya Markovich: And so. You know, there’s, there’s two sides of that coin, but you know, there, there are some real positives to working with younger companies. You know, if you, if you have a good feeling about the team, if you hear some good things, they’ve got good, uh, traction. Even if they don’t show up with a, you know, five tab color coded binder for their user manual, they, they may actually be delivering a better product.

[00:11:00] Maya Markovich: So just think about both sides, . Amen. That, amen.

[00:11:04] Steve Fretzin: Charlie.

[00:11:05] Charlie Uniman: Uh, yeah, I, uh, I would also, uh, add that if the newly minted firm gets comfortable with its legal tech, and I’m talking about practice tech, uh, as opposed to the business of law tech, uh, and they feel, or the leaders of that firm feel that it is making a contribution to making, uh, their production of legal services more efficient and, and better.

[00:11:29] Charlie Uniman: Make that known to your client. Be proud of it. Talk about your forward use. And why would the client care? Well, mostly they don’t unless you can make the point that it enhances your ability to get the answer more quickly. Get a better answer to the legal problem and, uh, and be more efficient overall. So.

[00:11:50] Charlie Uniman: Once you’re comfortable with the tech you’re using, don’t be ashamed of it. Tell your clients about it. Let them know that you’re tech forward and let them know how they can benefit from your using the tech. I think clients, at least business clients are particularly open ear to

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[00:13:50] Steve Fretzin: and stand out. And as we get into all of these different names and types of legal tech, it can be concerning to some attorneys that they don’t have a budget for this or that they don’t know what they should be budgeting.

[00:14:03] Steve Fretzin: Is there a way to sort of figure out, and I know there’s a lot of different practice areas, but for someone that’s starting out, like how do they budget for legal tech to know they’re not going to be paying 10, 000 a month for, you know, from day one, Alan, you want to give that a shot first?

[00:14:19] Colin Levy: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think it starts with, you have to understand what your need is, what your, what your use case hit is, how you’re currently solving that use case, how effective it is.

[00:14:30] Colin Levy: And then figure out before you even set a budget, look at kind of what seemed like they could potentially solve that problem and see what their cost is. I think oftentimes what people do is something sort of backwards, as I said, a budget. Start looking for tools and realize the tools don’t fit the budget.

[00:14:47] Colin Levy: And then they’re like, all right, well, we’ll just stop and look for any tools because we don’t have any or any tools that fit that budget. Well, you got to start with what you, you know, what exists out there and what your needs are. Um, you know, again, it goes back to something. I feel like I’m a broken record a little bit, and I’m not going to apologize for that.

[00:15:04] Colin Levy: You need to just do your due diligence and get your ducks in a row. Uh, because. Otherwise, you’re just going to be frustrated and you’re going to be wondering, why am I not finding what I need? Or why am I, everything I’m finding is so damn expensive. Well, did you think about what these tools cost before you started looking at them?

[00:15:25] Colin Levy: In other words, did you look at kind of what was available or did you just set a budget and then hope you were going to find something to fit that budget, which is a silly way to do something? I mean, it’s not like. Searching for a house, uh, this is more complicated and more longer lasting ideally. So you really want to be careful about how you go

[00:15:43] Steve Fretzin: about it.

[00:15:43] Steve Fretzin: And something you guys had mentioned earlier, I’ll hit you in a second. Um, but something you guys had mentioned earlier is, uh, speak to people that have it already. So like, if I’m, if I’m getting into the IP. Space and leaving a firm and starting my own gig. Maybe I should talk to two or three friends of mine that have small boutique IP firms.

[00:16:04] Steve Fretzin: What are you using? What’s working for you? What a problem does that solve? Like talk to lawyers that are already a year or two or three ahead of you. That’s going to be kind of an easy way to just start making lists of things that make sense or don’t make sense. Maya. I lost my train of thought. Sorry. Oh, no problem.

[00:16:20] Steve Fretzin: Charlie. Uh,

[00:16:23] Charlie Uniman: I think that, uh, you know, it’s tough to figure out a budget in the abstract or an approach to budgeting in the abstract. I want to echo something Colin said earlier, and that was, uh, there are, uh, premium approaches to paying for legal tech by that. I mean, you get a chance to use the product for a specified period of time before you pay anything, or you get to use the slimmed down version of the product, uh, uh, for free.

[00:16:51] Charlie Uniman: And then, uh, and only after that period, do you have to sign up. So test the waters that way. Make sure you understand the pricing, but I’m sure the law firms have a pretty good handle on dealing with vendors, uh, that way, and, uh, and maybe negotiate, uh, discounts at the outset of your journey, uh, so that, uh, you know, you can test the waters, even if you can’t use the, uh, technology for free, uh, before the full pricing, uh, kicks in.

[00:17:21] Charlie Uniman: Uh, and, uh, and don’t be a penny wise and pound foolish signing something out without kicking the tires. That was a horrible mixed metaphor, but I’ll go with it. I

[00:17:30] Steve Fretzin: will take it. And I got to train a thought back.

[00:17:33] Maya Markovich: I got it back. Sorry about that. Um, so I would also, this is what’s, this is another key thing that’s really important to ask about in the evaluation process, and that is ask them to pin down and give them some examples of time saved, right.

[00:17:50] Maya Markovich: And because it is incredibly important not to think of tech as, as simply a sunk cost. I mean, there’s, why would anyone do that? Right. So what you have to think about is what is it going to enable you to do more of? Is it, you know, more, more in depth conversations with your clients, uh, more relationship building, more volume, you know.

[00:18:13] Maya Markovich: Less admin, all of those times, all of that stuff go must go into the calculus. And if you, you know, can ask the potential legal tech provider for examples of, you know, like I said, time, save deficiencies, you know, anything like that, that should go into, that should be part of the parcel. I think of, of obviously the most, the most effective testimonials, but.

[00:18:34] Maya Markovich: But you’re using, you know, this, using tech is not a lawyer’s job, right? What’s a lawyer’s job is to find ways to provide better client service. And, and Lord knows there’s plenty of opportunity for tech to, you know, streamline those solutions, allow the best lawyers to do what they love best about practicing law and not the, not the kind of turn the crank type of work.

[00:18:59] Maya Markovich: So don’t get lost in the dollars and cents. Without thinking about the, the other side of things, which is all the things I said. You

[00:19:08] Charlie Uniman: know, I, I want to echo or take a different tack, uh, to, to accompany the thoughts of Maya just expressed. And I have to almost whisper this because my former partners in the law firms at which I practice in New York were my age or older, and they would be turning white if they heard me say this, but you know, uh, you don’t have to be a Gen Xer or a millennial to believe this.

[00:19:31] Charlie Uniman: Legal Kit Tac can actually make your professional life better. It can actually reduce the hours that you have to spend on grunt work, or your junior lawyers have to spend on grunt work, and actually help you devote more of your time to the judgment calls and the analytical stuff that you went to law school for.

[00:19:51] Charlie Uniman: And it may even, whether it’s your juniors or you, or senior person in a firm of whatever size or duration, may even let you go home a little earlier. Uh, than you otherwise would. So it’s not all just dollars and cents, as Myers said. It’s also lifestyle. And uh, we hard nosed lawyers lose sight of that fact.

[00:20:11] Charlie Uniman: And if anyone’s a baby boomer, it is I who grew up with the bill of the hour always being first and foremost. But do think of how the legal tech that you come to work with can make your life easier, better, and make your professional life a happier life.

[00:20:27] Steve Fretzin: We have one more question and we’re going to wrap up the show on this.

[00:20:31] Steve Fretzin: And I want to thank Michael for such a great question. It’s relating to, you know, look, we can spend all the money we want and get all the different tools we want. It doesn’t mean that they’re going to work for us. One of the biggest, um, issues that lawyers have is that they get something and they don’t really implement it properly.

[00:20:48] Steve Fretzin: So do you have some tips on tips or tactics on how to promote the adoption and the behavior change that needs to sometimes accompany the legal tech that gets inserted? Colin, you’re nodding. Uh, yeah. Um,

[00:21:05] Colin Levy: I think, you know, one thing to do is. You know, and this is hard work, but you know, a lot of things are hard.

[00:21:14] Colin Levy: You want to get the technology or the change to be seen as something that is not just something that you think needs to happen and therefore should happen, but as something that is for the benefit of those. Users are going to be using this, whatever it is, and we’re going to be on the front line. So in other words, you want to make it less of your idea, more of their idea.

[00:21:37] Colin Levy: They just hadn’t thought of it yet. Um, and that starts really with understanding kind of how they work their frustrations and speaking to those frustrations specifically in detailed way and about how whatever is going to help them and let them play around with it, let them be involved, bring them in for the beginning.

[00:21:55] Colin Levy: Um, because oftentimes what happens is, you know, leadership says, let’s start doing something. And then it trickles on down and then people are like, Oh, well now I have to just do this because someone at someone I don’t know somewhere else said I have to, and that just means you’re going to use it, but you’re going to be resentful about using it and not, not likely to use it as effectively or as much as you would want to.

[00:22:18] Colin Levy: And to my earlier point about change management, this is something that just goes completely overlooked or ignored outright. By too many law firms and too many companies, uh, they just think that they can just skip to all the kind of the fun stuff without engaging in the hard stuff first. And which is why really always starts with is about and ends with people.

[00:22:38] Colin Levy: That’s the bottom line. People are those who enact the change, who enable the change, who make the change last. If the people aren’t part of it, you’re screwed. You might as well just stop whatever you’re doing before you.

[00:22:51] Maya Markovich: I would, I totally agree. I would add to that call. And I actually, like, went into quite great depth in a three part article series on this.

[00:22:58] Maya Markovich: I’m happy to put in the chat, but, you know, change management of a particular initiative is proactively managing the points between idea and outcome, right? It doesn’t have to be a rigid discipline, but a few core principles can almost always be applied. Thoughtfully anticipating impacts and potentially defensive behavior.

[00:23:17] Maya Markovich: Uh, with a, with a compassionate view to that getting insights from all your stakeholders, not just the decision maker, reassuring your team of what is not going to change, setting expectation of the process and the outcomes, evaluating the risk ahead of time and making sure that you measure your success, even by just shifting your mindset to understanding that tough, you know, change is really tough for humans.

[00:23:41] Maya Markovich: Asking those, these questions in your team without getting hung up on specific stages or anything like that, you’ll begin to see the benefit. And as Colin says, you start, uh, with a certain end with the people.

[00:23:52] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Charlie.

[00:23:54] Charlie Uniman: If, uh, if your firm is, uh, is a larger firm, uh, among the small to medium sized firms, try, uh, finding someone I mentioned earlier, a champion, someone who’s sort of tech interested, uh, try to find someone in the firm.

[00:24:08] Charlie Uniman: To, uh, pilot the program with his or her practice or his or her practice area. And then if it works for them, uh, they can be the Clary who calls the others in the firm and say, hey, I tried this. Yeah, I’m an enthusiast, but it really worked. It saved me time. It made for fewer mistakes. It made the client happy.

[00:24:29] Charlie Uniman: So if you have a larger firm, find the, uh, the person who can act as the initial guinea pig, if you will. Force pick people who are sympathetic to the idea of using tech and then, uh, let word of mouth within the firm help you, uh, uh, give impetus to the change who has to be managed. And I’ll say what the other 2, uh, oracles, my fellow oracles have said, it’s a people thing and there are professionals to do this.

[00:24:56] Charlie Uniman: If you don’t want to spend money on the change management professionals, remember, it’s not just typing on keys and touching on iPads. And making funny things happen on screens. It’s getting people to do something differently, ultimately for their own best interest.

[00:25:13] Steve Fretzin: The other thing I would add to this, and then just such, such important, great answers about buy in and the importance of getting everyone to think it’s their own idea or to just be, you know, just to agree that it’s, it’s good for them and for the group, the customization of that legal tech, right?

[00:25:29] Steve Fretzin: If it’s a, if it’s a practice management, your, your business is different than others. You need to hire someone or have some help or have someone at your firm that really is into legal tech work on the customization so that it really fits with what you need it to do and want it to do. And then the training, I think there’s a lot of missed opportunities for training.

[00:25:48] Steve Fretzin: And so if people aren’t trained on the tech, then I think it’s going to slip away. And I remember years ago, I trained a bunch of attorneys on. A CRM and within about a month, nobody was using it. Well, why? Cause we only had one training session and they learned too much and then they lost it all. And it was like, oh, that was a big waste of time and money and energy.

[00:26:07] Steve Fretzin: So I would just, just continue to say, you know, make sure that you either get that out of the vendor that you’re dealing with or find a third party, right? Charlie’s on board or get someone at your firm that really enjoys this kind of geeky stuff. And that’s okay. And, and, and give them some authority to help customize it and train and do whatever needs to be done.

[00:26:27] Charlie Uniman: And to your point, Steve, about the vendor vendors now have not only support that help you with glitches in the software, but also what are called customer success teams ship there further along in their development of the company, which are the people who train and deal with the sort of people management, change management aspects of.

[00:26:47] Charlie Uniman: Of, uh, getting software adopted, not sitting on a shelf. So look to your vendor. They may have a playbook to help you get over it, uh, and rely on them. Yeah,

[00:26:58] Steve Fretzin: that’s perfect. And so I think we’re, we’re just about wrapping up. I want to of course, thank our sponsors. We’ve got overture. law. We’ve got get visible and get staffed up.

[00:27:08] Steve Fretzin: And apparently if you have the word get in your, in the name of your company, you’re going to want to talk to me about sponsorship. Just putting that out there. I want to thank our panel. We’ve got Charlie and Colin and Maya just made an unbelievable team to help answer your questions and hopefully educate you on.

[00:27:23] Steve Fretzin: Uh, best practices as it relates to legal tech. And again, we probably, to Colin’s point, could talk about this for hours and hours. And I think you guys all do, but we only had, you know, a little bit of time for this, um, in the last, you know, episode or two. And of course, I want to thank the attendees, the folks that are here participating that Put in their questions and hopefully we, we answered them and, you know, we’ll try to do this again, you know, maybe another six months or so to, uh, to, to get more of this answer.

[00:27:48] Steve Fretzin: Cause I think there’s just so much to cover. Um, but Charlie, Callen, Maya, thank you again, really appreciate you guys being, uh, being here and sharing your wisdom, really great stuff. You bet. Thanks for

[00:27:58] Maya Markovich: having me. Thanks so much. Thank

[00:28:00] Steve Fretzin: you. And hang out for just a moment and, and thank you everybody for spending that’s, that’s, you know, not only here live, but also that’s listening, uh, to these, uh, podcast episodes.

[00:28:09] Steve Fretzin: And again, if you like what we’re talking about, please don’t be afraid to like us and give us a thumbs up or whatever you got on your phone or your, or your computer. And of course, this show is helping you every single episode to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.

[00:28:23] Steve Fretzin: Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.

[00:28:30] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, Check out today’s show notes.