Brooke Lively: Getting More of What You Want in Your Law Firm with EOS

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brooke Lively discuss:

  • Avoiding analysis by paralysis.
  • The six key components of business that you need to understand.
  • EOS (Traction) for law firms.
  • Defining roles and delegating for law firm success.

Key Takeaways:

  • When you have your data dialed in, you can see where the issues really are and then you can fix them.
  • Most companies are running at about 20% strong on the six key components. Very few have 100%, but the goal is to always get better.
  • If everything is important, nothing is important. You’ve got to keep the one thing, the one thing.
  • There are many free resources for getting started with EOS that can help transform your law firm now.

“When you’ve got the vision, when you’ve got the right people that understand that vision and are helping to create it, that are rowing in the same direction, and you’re doing it all based on data – everything in your company becomes so clear.” —  Brooke Lively

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About Brooke Lively: Brooke is the Founder and President of Cathcap, a group of Profitability Specialists and CEOs who help lawyers grow, scale, and create more profitable firms. She started the company after spinning up a 7-figure law firm in under 2 years and receiving requests for help from other law firm owners for help. That was when Brooke began to understand the apprehension lawyers felt around the numbers in their business, and how rarely they used data in their decision-making process. As Cathcap grew and helped more than 200 firms, she began to see a trend between the firms that excelled and the ones that just survived – and that difference was implementing EOS. After years of trying to find great EOS coaches who understood the legal industry, Brooke ultimately became an EOS Implementer and now helps law firms achieve all their goals.

Brooke is an international speaker, international best-selling author, and coach whose down to earth actionable advice has helped hundreds of lawyers. She loves nothing more than the moment when “the light bulb goes on” and she knows that a person is going to take action that will positively impact their business, and not only their life, but the lives of their clients and employees. Brooke holds an MBA in Corporate Finance and Investments from TCU, is a CFA Charter holder, has been voted one of Fort Worth’s CFOs of the year, and has been featured in such publications as CNBC, Forbes, and US News and World Report.

Connect with Brooke Lively:  






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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, if you’re looking to supercharge your success in 2024, you’re going to want to attend our final event of the year at December 18th. Go to our website at Fretzin. com slash events to learn more, but this is the one you’ve been waiting for. Hope to see you there.

[00:00:20] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:42] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. Hopefully you’re Back again. It’s not a first time thing. If it is, I want to welcome you to the show. This is for you, the lawyer who wants to get active with growth. You want to learn how to do business development, marketing. You want to scale. You want to be more, um, committed to better time management skills, uh, health and wellness.

[00:01:01] Steve Fretzin: You name it. We’ve got it. Go back and listen to the 300 and blah, blah, blah shows that I have. And hopefully you’ll pick up some good ones. I don’t think you need to listen to them all. If you do great, you’ve got a lot of free time in your hands, which is probably not the case. But to handpick and select some great rainmakers and great experts that I’ve had on the show, not a bad, not a bad way to go.

[00:01:20] Steve Fretzin: I want to thank you for being here. And also, um, I just want to make sure that everybody understands. You know, this is, you get one shot at this thing called life and one shot at this thing called building a law practice. So what you’re hearing on the show is, is meant to be tactical and actionable to give you ideas and things you can actually do to make those improvements.

[00:01:37] Steve Fretzin: It’s not the 60, 000 foot view. So I really want you guys to make sure that you’re taking mental notes or actual notes when you’re listening to the show. I know you’ll get value from it that way. I’ve got Brooke waiting in the wings. How’s it going, Brooke? Awesome. How’s everything going with you today?

[00:01:52] Steve Fretzin: Doing okay. Doing okay. Um, this is your second time, correct? Yeah, you

[00:01:57] Brooke Lively: must really like me.

[00:01:58] Steve Fretzin: I, well, A, yes. And B, I think you were way at the beginning too. Like, I feel like, like maybe two, three years ago, it’s been quite, I have to look that up, but it’s been quite a while. It has been. And for shame on me for shame on me, but you know, listen, we, I’m just happy that we were able to reconnect and get to this and what I’d love to do, Brooke, if you’re okay with this, start with the quote of the show.

[00:02:20] Steve Fretzin: Is that all right? Absolutely. All right. And so. You and I are both huge fans of Gino Wickman, uh, the author of Traction and a number of other publications. And we’re going to get into, into the weeds about him and everything he’s talking about. But his, um, quote of the show is vision without traction is a hallucination.

[00:02:39] Steve Fretzin: And I just think that is so spot on. I think like traction also execution. I think that’s another word for traction is, you know, we all, I have lots of ideas. It’s, can I execute on those ideas that really. Matters. I think that’s where a lot of lawyers kind of miss the boat. It’s, it’s great idea, but then actually getting it through over the finish line.

[00:02:59] Steve Fretzin: Right.

[00:03:00] Brooke Lively: Yeah. And I think it’s two things. I think that there’s some really entrepreneurial lawyers out there and those entrepreneurs, 20 ideas an hour, and there’s that shiny thing. There’s always a new shiny thing. Right. Yeah. And so it’s so easily easy to get distracted. The other thing that is really an issue for attorneys.

[00:03:23] Brooke Lively: Is you want all the answers you want to know all the angles when I know what all the potential problems and outcomes are. So you end up with paralysis by analysis and sometimes you just need to take the shot, take action. Yeah.

[00:03:43] Steve Fretzin: And, and in focus, I think that’s another key word. I mean, we can just keep talking about great words that we like, but focus meaning, you know, if you’re trying to do everything yourself, then you end up doing nothing well, or you end up just giving up with that paralysis.

[00:03:55] Steve Fretzin: Yes. And it isn’t that you need experts for everything, but there are some things that are just above your pay grade. Like if I need a lawyer for a specific type of need, I go to that specific type of lawyer. I don’t say, well, I better just start reading books or I better start figuring it out myself. Go, you know, go where someone actually has already experienced the skills and maybe even use those skills and it has the experience to help you.

[00:04:16] Steve Fretzin: So Brooke, thank you so much for being on the show. Uh, Brooke Lively, you’re with PathPath, president of that, of that company. You and I have known each other, I think, even before the podcast a while. And, um, it’d be great for everybody to just sort of understand your background leading up to what you’re up to now, uh, because some things have changed and I think some really exciting things.

[00:04:36] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So

[00:04:37] Brooke Lively: I started path cap, gosh, well, 13, 14 years ago. It’s been a while. And I started it. I was running my family’s law firm and I. Ran into this group of attorneys and they started asking me if I could do for them what I’m doing, what I was doing for my family. And that was when I realized that law firms weren’t running based on data.

[00:05:01] Brooke Lively: They weren’t running on the numbers. And I’m an MBA CFA. I was running the family’s law firm like a business. And we were making data driven decision. I was functioning as their CFO. So I said, sure, I can help your law firm do that. And so I started Calf Cap and we are a fractional CFO company. And our job is to make law firms more profitable.

[00:05:26] Brooke Lively: And we love doing that. And it’s fun, but we did a lot of analysis on our client and we looked at who was doing well, who was doing really well, who was hitting those goals. Who was surpassing them and we started to break down to try to figure out what the elements of success were. And one of the ones that we saw was across the board are our firms that were achieving everything were executing.

[00:05:57] Brooke Lively: And most of the ones that we’re executing were doing something like EOS or traction. They were running on something.

[00:06:06] Steve Fretzin: And, and in one real quick, what is EOS for people that are hearing about that for the first time? It’s the

[00:06:11] Brooke Lively: entrepreneurial operating system that was created by Gina Wickman. And so that became our number one outgoing referral.

[00:06:21] Brooke Lively: And we would get feedback from our clients and they were saying things like, Oh, I can’t find anyone who really understands the legal industry, which technically you don’t have to, to, to be an EOS implementer and help someone implement EOS. A lot of attorneys feel comfortable with that. And I was also hearing from implementers that they didn’t like working with attorneys, which I don’t understand that

[00:06:46] Steve Fretzin: because I don’t love it.

[00:06:47] Steve Fretzin: What’s going on with that? I know,

[00:06:50] Brooke Lively: I’ve got this weird attorney fetish, so, so eventually I just became an EOS implementer, and so I help law firms get more of what they want out of their firm, and, and it’s fun. Yeah. Love

[00:07:05] Steve Fretzin: it. Yeah. Nice. I want to give people a little, a little history of, of in my, in my world, because there was a time I was running three, four businesses at the same time.

[00:07:16] Steve Fretzin: I had, you know, 13 employees, I had three offices. I was scrambled eggs on a daily basis. And I worked with an EOS implementer here in Chicago, who was awesome. And he got it down to the core of like, what am I best at doing? What do I enjoy? And where’s the money? And it all led back to focus, which is you need to focus on working with lawyers to grow their law practices and helping them specifically in business development, not recruiting, not marketing, not this, not that like, what is your core best thing you do?

[00:07:48] Steve Fretzin: And it really brought me back to earth. That I didn’t need to have all these companies. I didn’t need all this overhead. And I slowly started shaving things away to get to, and I have never looked back. I’ve never been happier. I’ve never regretted a second of any of those decisions I made based on the help of that EOS implementer, who was terrific.

[00:08:07] Steve Fretzin: So, so typically EOS, I think, was it originally in the book traction created for manufacturers?

[00:08:13] Brooke Lively: You know, so the way it was invented was. At 25, Gino got a call from his family and they said, you need to come help run the family business. And he got in there and it was apparently a disaster and he spent three years turning it around.

[00:08:31] Brooke Lively: And then after seven years, he sold the business and he had a year and a half where he transitioned to the new management and all of that. And during that time, during that 18 months, he had founded the EO Detroit chapter with nine other people. All I do. He found that he really liked mentoring and he’d really like helping run entrepreneurial businesses.

[00:08:59] Brooke Lively: So he took what he had done with his own family company and took some other, you know, good, basic business principles and put them together to create EOS. Yes, it works for manufacturing. Yes, it works for service based businesses. It’s anybody that is entrepreneurial with 10 to about. 250 employees.

[00:09:26] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and the thing that I think and no, I do it still do it for myself to there’s a thing called a vision traction organizer that I use for myself and occasionally will share with some of my clients just to give them like a two page business plan, which I love.

[00:09:39] Steve Fretzin: I absolutely love it. And I use a quarterly and it really, I get, I love that the going off and checking off the things that I actually got accomplished in the quarter and bring it over the stuff that I. That I had, you know, put on hold or whatever, there are law firms sitting out there right now who really struggle with a lot of the different pieces of the business, the money piece, the employee piece, the business development, marketing piece, and the operational piece.

[00:10:04] Steve Fretzin: And there’s all these, these moving parts. And I think what I love about EOS is how it brings it together in. So it’s, it’s more. Understandable and also more delegatable. Can you talk to what are the strengths of EOS versus other executive? Can I’m not, again, lots of great executive coaches out there, lots of people doing it in a way that’s beneficial, but EOS is unique in some ways.

[00:10:27] Steve Fretzin: And can you share a little bit about that? Yeah. So

[00:10:30] Brooke Lively: EOS is built on the concept that there are six core things that we need to strengthen. The first is the vision. Where are you going? And how are you going to get there? And does everybody in your company know that and understand that? Because so often the owner has some idea, the receptionist doesn’t know, doesn’t share that.

[00:11:00] Brooke Lively: The second thing is people. And this is back to a Jim Collins thing. Do we have the right people in the right seats? Do they share your core values? Are they the right people? And are they in the right seat? Are they doing a job that they understand what the job is? They want the job and they’ve got the skillset to do it.

[00:11:22] Steve Fretzin: But I mean, just, just stopping you right there. I mean, if you have a vision or if you have an idea of what you want your business to be, your law firm to be, and you’re the only one that knows it, or you’re the only one that’s on that, you know, on that trajectory, everybody else is doing their own thing or not, they don’t even know what it is.

[00:11:38] Steve Fretzin: That’s problematic to your, to you accomplishing your goal. And then do you have the people that are around you that are going to support you? And that care about the vision and care about if your vision is, I want to make as much money as anybody and, and who cares about anybody else, I mean, that’s good luck on your own, right?

[00:11:55] Steve Fretzin: But if you have a vision that is actually building something that matters, right? And then to have the right people, right? Those, those first two steps are. You know, how do you even go forward without those first two steps? Well,

[00:12:07] Brooke Lively: and then you add the third one in there of data, like, what’s the data? And this is the one that I’ve been pounding on for a decade.

[00:12:16] Brooke Lively: Are we making decisions based on data or are we making them based on gut instinct? And the problem with making a decision on gut instinct is that you make the decision and then you’re at dinner with your family and you’re like, oh, wait, maybe I should have done the other thing. And then you wake up at 3 a.

[00:12:29] Brooke Lively: m. and you review the decision again. And then you’re in a deposition with a client. At 11 a. m. The next morning. And you know, when you make that decision with, with data, it’s one and done. And so you, you want to know what those, you know, five or 15 numbers are that will give you kind of the pulse of your business.

[00:12:54] Brooke Lively: And when you’ve got the vision, when you’ve got the right people. That understand that vision that are helping to create it, that are rowing in the same direction. And you’re doing it all based on data, everything in your company becomes so clear, like

[00:13:12] Steve Fretzin: everything, but that, but how many firms have that? If you had a hundred firms lined up, a hundred law firm owners lined up, I mean, how many have even those first three out of six, right?

[00:13:21] Steve Fretzin: I mean, it’s probably less than 5%, 10%, very

[00:13:25] Brooke Lively: few. Yeah. So the other three pieces that we’re working towards are issues. So when you’ve got your vision, your people and your data all dialed in, you can see those issues. You can see the problems and it’s all about setting them up and knocking them down faster.

[00:13:40] Brooke Lively: You can solve those problems once and for all, the better that we want to talk about process. And I’m not talking about that 700 page SOP manual, you know, It’s what I used to think that process every,

[00:13:54] Steve Fretzin: every lawyers are afraid of any SOP manual.

[00:13:58] Brooke Lively: We don’t want that. Let’s take more entrepreneurs. Let’s take the entrepreneurial approach to this.

[00:14:02] Brooke Lively: Let’s document, you know, the 80 percent of the steps of the 20 percent of the activities that get 80 percent of the work done, right? And then the last one is traction. Let’s get some kind of execution rhythm going. Let’s get some, you know, rocks and goals. Let’s get a quarterly meeting. Let’s get a weekly meeting going.

[00:14:34] Brooke Lively: Yeah. So that, so that you can feel that. And, and when you do that, when you can strengthen those six key components, you know, would we like to get to a hundred percent? Yeah. Is that realistic? No, no one ever gets to a hundred percent. You know, we’re just looking to be 80 percent strong, but Steve, like you said, most companies, most law firms, but well, let me say it this way.

[00:14:59] Brooke Lively: Most companies are running at about 20 percent strong on these. Oh, no. I don’t, I don’t know where law firms are specifically, but

[00:15:09] Steve Fretzin: maybe they’re 20 percent strong. I mean, here’s the thing, like when you can put those things in place, I don’t want to compare it like exactly to this, but I feel like it’s like if you went to Vegas and you’re and you can’t get caught, but you’re a card counter and you’re sitting at a blackjack table and you don’t, you know what cards are coming and you know how to deal with them when they come and when to wait and when to hit and all that versus just like not really knowing how to play blackjack and sitting down.

[00:15:33] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I feel like that’s how a lot of law firm owners. You know, they get into this because they want, they have a dream of, of running their own show. And then they get stuck when they start hitting roadblocks around the vision, around people, around Prod, DACA process, et cetera. And they don’t really have someone in their corner that can just isolate those things and walk them through, you know, the, the best way to manage all the different moving parts.

[00:15:59] Brooke Lively: Well, and that’s a big thing. I mean, let’s face it, law school didn’t teach you how to manage people. It didn’t teach you how to develop people, and that’s an issue because when you own your own firm, you need to do that law


[00:16:14] Brooke Lively: didn’t teach you a lot about data. It taught you how to solve legal problems, but not necessarily how to solve your business problems.

[00:16:23] Brooke Lively: So being able to do that, getting the skill set to do that. And, you know, Steve, as you said, having somebody on the outside, that third party that can see it a little clearer, you know, what’s, what’s the thing? You know, it’s easy to do the direct directions are written on the outside of the box. Problem is

[00:16:43] Steve Fretzin: you’re inside the box.

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[00:18:34] Steve Fretzin: One of the things that I loved about Traction and, and working with an EOS visor was a lot of law firm owners feel like they’re, they’ve got to do everything themselves. And this is very clear. When you start looking at the rocks and you start looking at the issues and just to give everybody a heads up, the rocks are typically like 90 day goals, 90 day things that you need to achieve.

[00:18:57] Steve Fretzin: Because if you break up everything you need to do, it gets overwhelming. But if you take the top 3, 5, 7 things and put them on a list and say these are the priorities, those would be considered the rocks and then all of your crazy ideas would get put on an issues list and not really touched until you achieve the rocks, correct?

[00:19:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Okay, to some degree. And then. But yeah, but here’s where I was actually going with that, Brooke. And then let’s say the rock is that I need to start a podcast. Okay. And I don’t have a pile. I’m a law lawyer. I want to start a podcast and who’s responsible for that. Is that, am I responsible for getting all the details of the editing and the production and all the different details of that?

[00:19:36] Steve Fretzin: Or is that my paralegal or assistants or associates or partners, your responsibility, who’s in charge of that? Project,

[00:19:45] Brooke Lively: right? Who owns it? Because, you know, I’m from Texas and here they say. You can’t ride two horses with one ass.

[00:19:57] Steve Fretzin: Sorry. True. Yeah. Depends. I mean, it depends on the gas, but I’m just, I’m just putting it out there.

[00:20:02] Brooke Lively: Okay. I’m got the most people big enough to do that. All right. Fair enough. You know, in EOS, if everything’s important, nothing’s important. So we’ve got to keep, what’s the book? The one thing we’ve got to keep the one thing, the one thing, what is, what is the most important thing? What is going to move us forward?

[00:20:21] Brooke Lively: What is going to help us achieve? Whatever it is that we’re trying to achieve this quarter to set us up for what we want to achieve this year.

[00:20:31] Steve Fretzin: And even, even if you don’t, if you’re a solo listening to this, or you’re a lawyer at a firm and you just feel like everything is on your shoulders, this can still be used.

[00:20:42] Steve Fretzin: It may not be used in the same way where you’re going to bring Brooke in, you know, you’re a, you know, a junior partner at your firm. She’s not going to, you know, probably work with work with you at a big firm like that. But the idea is. That you need to start thinking about what your priorities are. You need to start thinking about what’s going to get you to your goals for the quarter, what you want to achieve, and most importantly, what you can delegate.

[00:21:04] Steve Fretzin: And that’s where people lose it is they just are not good at delegating or don’t feel like they have the people to delegate to, which is, that’s, you know, maybe the, the project is to find people to delegate to that might be the, the task at hand.

[00:21:16] Brooke Lively: It may be. And I’ve got, I’ve got two things about that. So there are some big law firms.

[00:21:21] Brooke Lively: Where implementers have gone in and they’ve worked with just a group

[00:21:25] Steve Fretzin: like, like a practice here at group or something like this. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay.

[00:21:29] Brooke Lively: And then the other thing is, is I was working with a firm in DC. I don’t know, 10 days ago and you know, it was smaller. And the first thing I noticed is that the two, the two owners.

[00:21:45] Brooke Lively: We’re like doing a ton of the same work. They were, they were like in meetings with the clients together. And I’m like, what, what are you all doing? We need to have defined roles. And the second we defined roles, one of the partners was like, does she realize I’m, I’m not going to be on client calls anymore and she’s taking all the client calls and I’m like, she’s already on all the client calls.

[00:22:12] Brooke Lively: And she was like, Oh, I’m like, you’re just not on the client calls anymore. And like, it was, and it was like this light bulb went on and this magical moment. And so, you know, how are we defining your roles? So that you’re not tripping over each other. And that’s what you’re talking about with the delegation.

[00:22:30] Brooke Lively: Yeah. How you get off to someone and letting them own it and do it.

[00:22:36] Steve Fretzin: And let me just, let me just state for the record too. One of the reasons that I see lawyers struggle with delegation, number one is finding the right person, but number two is they feel like they can’t trust the person to get it done.

[00:22:48] Steve Fretzin: And I think what they’re missing is the idea that delegation in itself is a process. It does. It’s not like you find someone. And you just give them everything you have and then it’s just going to get done magically and that’s the end of it. I mean, that’s called

[00:23:02] Brooke Lively: abdication,

[00:23:03] Steve Fretzin: Steve. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Let me get my dictionary out.

[00:23:08] Steve Fretzin: Uh, The idea that, that we need to start off slow and maybe there’s some, you know, oversight, right? Initially, you know, go do something, but check before you actually do it, you know, check with me, questions, come back to me, et cetera, that there’s different levels before I, like Sergio is my assistant, right?

[00:23:26] Steve Fretzin: My mark, everyone loves Sergio, my marketing assistant. He didn’t start off day one, knowing how to write like me. He didn’t start off day one, knowing how to do all the stuff that I told him to do. I had to stay with them for like a few months. To work with him and help train him to the point where now he’s on his own.

[00:23:41] Steve Fretzin: And like a mistake happens, I don’t know, almost never, like once a month, twice a month, I catch something that, that is a little different than what I would have wanted. Okay. Yeah. You know, if you were doing

[00:23:52] Narrator: it,

[00:23:53] Brooke Lively: you’d probably make a mistake every now and then. Oh

[00:23:55] Steve Fretzin: yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’m perfect. You know, just ask my wife, but, um, you know, right.

[00:24:01] Steve Fretzin: I asked my teenager and I’m the opposite of perfect with whoever you want to talk to. It depends on who you talk to, apparently. No, but it’s, but it, yes, we, but here’s the, but that’s the problem is we have to get comfortable with how to delegate and understanding that it’s, it’s not an overnight thing and you’ve got to put some time in and just saying that I’m going to get out, just easier to get it done myself as a total cop out.

[00:24:21] Steve Fretzin: And there’s, there’s a lot of time that goes in to the repetitiveness of a task that I hear. I’ll give you the best example. I had a client say that an estate planner, he was making copies for himself. It’s just easier for me to make the copies, right? Get some copies in my office, easier to make copies.

[00:24:37] Steve Fretzin: Two hours a day, two hours a day of making copies and sitting and waiting for copies and stapling and just doing it all himself

[00:24:44] Brooke Lively: as opposed to how many plans could he do in two hours? How much

[00:24:48] Steve Fretzin: were you, so you add up the two hours a day and a week, 40 a month. So he’s got an extra week a month, basically just from delegating that one thing.

[00:24:59] Steve Fretzin: And we found others. So it’s, it’s really, I know that’s a simple example, simple and stupid example, but. Somebody’s listening to this going, I’m making copies and maybe I need to look at that.

[00:25:10] Brooke Lively: It is. Then, and I think, I think the lesson in here is to delegate, to hand it off slowly, to hand it off with supervision and yes, initially it’s going to take more time and it’s going to take more effort and it’s a pain in the tookus.

[00:25:26] Brooke Lively: But if you dump it on them with no parameters and no teaching and no follow up and, and not setting your expectation and helping them achieve your expectation, they are a hundred percent going to fail, which is going to reinforce your, Oh, it’s just easy to do it myself mindset. And you’re never going to get what you want.

[00:25:47] Steve Fretzin: So why is the EOS deliverable different than A lawyer, just a, a managing partner, just hiring an executive coach or just bringing in AC, you know, an outsourced CFO as opposed to someone who’s like, what you, what you do, what you do do, and what you’ve done, but not with the EOS model behind it.

[00:26:06] Brooke Lively: So, let me be clear, I still think you need ACFO.

[00:26:09] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Well, all right. Yeah, I mean, the numbers aren’t important, but I, this doesn’t get bit about you, is you, you’re the whole package. ’cause you’ve got the S and you’ve got the CFO and I’m assuming they get both. Well, they can, they can. Okay. It’s enough.

[00:26:23] Brooke Lively: The thing about EOS is that it’s a system. It’s easy to understand.

[00:26:28] Brooke Lively: There are books that have been written. So you can read traction. If you want a book that explains it more like a textbook, you can read, get a grip. If you’re the type of person that wants, you know, the, the fable or the fairy tale. The story version, you can read, um, what the heck


[00:26:47] Brooke Lively: EOS for, you know, your paralegals or your receptionist, which is an easier version and shorter.

[00:26:57] Brooke Lively: And it just skips the rest of your team, you know, the down and dirty short and sweet, here’s what it is. That’s so smart. And it’s really, it’s, it’s logical. It’s easy to understand and it’s well developed. So, you know, a coach is going to come in. And they may, they may teach some of the same concepts and they may be really awesome, but it’s not a developed

[00:27:22] Steve Fretzin: system, right?

[00:27:24] Steve Fretzin: And I mean, I feel the same way. I’ve, I work with, I’m friends with a lot of coaches in the BD space for lawyers. And when I find that many of them are lacking and I, and I actually teach a class because I have sales free selling, I have a model of how to do networking, how to do marketing, how to do business development, prospecting, and locking up business and client loyalty.

[00:27:44] Steve Fretzin: And now that. All as a system and all as language that’s learnable and repeatable versus when I do coaching calls or other coaches do coaching calls, it’s like, Hey, what’s going on with you? How’s it going? What are you working on? And we can work like that. And that’s a great way to, to make improvements.

[00:27:59] Steve Fretzin: But if you then include a system, I mean, then, then that’s, then that’s something someone can own. Like I own the EOS system to some degree because I worked with someone years ago and in 16 years later, I’m still doing the track vision, traction organizer for myself every quarter, every year. And I’m helping a couple other lawyers, you know, use those tools.

[00:28:21] Steve Fretzin: Well, and the thing is,

[00:28:23] Brooke Lively: I mean, Steve, exactly what you said. You, you’re probably not going to work with an implementer forever. You tend to work with an implementer. About two years and then exactly what happened to you, you figured out the tools, you understand how to use them and you go off and you use them on your own for the next 16 years.

[00:28:42] Brooke Lively: Yeah. And that’s what’s supposed

[00:28:44] Steve Fretzin: to happen. That’s perfect. Really great stuff, Brooke. Thank you so much. Let’s uh, go to your game changing books with book, which shockingly is Traction by Geno Weckman. So there’s a whole theme I’m noticing here. And I did ask you about, about your podcast. You were like, you know, how we built this, which is like every other podcast, uh, person saying, uh, or every other guest I have says that how we built this.

[00:29:07] Steve Fretzin: So I guess that’s the, the go to, uh, for, for lawyer entrepreneurs, but. It is entertaining. What can I, yeah, but, but obviously, you know, one of the things I want you to talk about with traction isn’t just the book, but he’s so generous in giving away the tools, not being greedy and not saying, look, these are my proprietary X, Y, Z.

[00:29:28] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I’m a big, big believer in giving stuff away. I’m my, my father, Larry, the lawyer, you’re giving it all away. I heard good. If I can give it away and someone can learn it and execute it and get better than good, but ultimately the goal is these tools are good to a point. And then the next step is you actually bring in someone to do, do it the right way.

[00:29:47] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Or

[00:29:47] Brooke Lively: sometimes you, you bring people in, in the beginning, sometimes you bring the implementer in, in the beginning, it depends on, on who you are and, and. How disciplined your team is and where their strengths are, but yeah, there is so much available online. You know, you can go to EOS worldwide. com and, and you can see all the tools and you can do an organizational checkup to see how strong you are in those six key components to see if you’re at the 20 percent end or the 80 percent end.

[00:30:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Just, can you actually, can you, is that a, that’s a downloadable, uh, Uh, thing people can do that evaluation assessment, it’s

[00:30:33] Brooke Lively: an online

[00:30:34] Steve Fretzin: thing, but yeah, I wonder if we should put that, should we put that in the show notes or something? Like maybe give the link. All right, we’re going to do that everybody.

[00:30:41] Steve Fretzin: So like you want to test out if, if how were you doing against the, the six key core components of, of EOS. Um, we’re going to put that in the show notes. Just, just scroll down and you can download that and then take that, take that assessment and see where you fall. It might be very helpful. But I just, I just think traction’s great as we wrap up, Brooke, I want to thank our sponsors.

[00:30:59] Steve Fretzin: Of course, we’ve got get visible, helping everybody get more visible on their website. And with all their digital, we’ve got Laumatics who’s kicking butt and taking names in the, not just in the, uh, uh, CRM space in the, in the database management space, but also really helping with the marketing. And I use Laumatics every day and absolutely love it.

[00:31:17] Steve Fretzin: And of course, get staffed up where my guy Sergio came from. You’re looking for, for some great virtual assistants and you need someone full time. They are the go to for that. Brooke, if people want to get in touch with you at CAF CAP, they want to talk to you. They want to find out how EOS works. Could you help them?

[00:31:33] Steve Fretzin: What are the best ways for them to reach you?

[00:31:35] Brooke Lively: Uh, the easiest way to get me is brooke at cafcap. com. Yeah. I mean, I always think that’s the easiest way. If you want to see my EOS website, it’s eosworldwide. com forward slash dash lively. Okay.

[00:31:53] Steve Fretzin: Well, very cool. Thanks again. Thanks for being a two timer on my show here, coming back and visiting and really exciting stuff.

[00:32:00] Steve Fretzin: I’m, I, you know, I’m, I’m just, uh, I’m thrilled for you. I’m thrilled for the, uh, the, the change that you may, we’re going to call that our be that lawyer tipping point. When you move to. From the CFO to, to adding the EOS, we’re going to, that’s a late in the game call I just made because we missed that be that lawyer tipping point earlier.

[00:32:14] Steve Fretzin: It usually happens early. There you go. Um, we got it in though. Yes. I, I slipped it in right at the finish line. So happy that, and I, I do want to keep in touch with you. I do want to, you know, have you get in front of some of the managing partners I work with to talk a little bit about it. And, um, I just think there’s, there’s a lot of opportunity for you to do some real good in this space more than, you know, in addition to all the good you’ve already done.

[00:32:34] Steve Fretzin: So thanks again. Thanks for having me, Steve. Yeah. And thank you, everybody, for spending time with me and Brooke today, hopefully getting some great takeaways and really learning, again, how to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled lawyer. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again very soon.

[00:32:53] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business. Development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.