In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Charlie Uniman discuss:
- The relationship between time and value.
- The evolution of practicing law.
- Adopting good legal tech.
- Utilizing tech to allow you to do the best job possible for your client.
- There are many websites that review legal tech. Check them out and see what can help you to become more productive and more efficient in your firm.
- There are local meetups as well as LinkedIn groups that can help you understand legal tech.
- AI is not going to substitute for judgment and creativity, but it will make your firm more efficient.
- If you know, can learn, and can use the technology, it can exponentially help you to build your brand and your firm.
“Software doesn’t get bored; software doesn’t get tired. It can work 24/7. And as such, it’s going to be a great backstop for the creative work that you’re doing, and even some of the grunt work that remains.” — Charlie Uniman
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
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Charlie Uniman [00:00]
software doesn’t get bored. Software doesn’t get tired, it can work 24/7 And as such, it’s going to be a great backstop for the creative work that you’re doing and even some of the grunt work that remains.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:42]
Hey everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin Your lovely host, I’m feeling lovely. Sometimes I feel lovely. Sometimes I feel not so lovely. But look, it’s Chicago, we’re having some weather changing and hopefully we’re gonna we’re gonna get to some better weather. And also it is another day to be that lawyer someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker, I hope your your BD is kicking butt and that your marketing is out there and you’re doing the right things to keep that flow of business coming in and sustainable. And it’s what it’s all about. I mean, you can you can bill hours, but you also have to make sure that you’re sustainable in the future. That’s what this show is all about continuing to bring you the best guests I can to educate and inform give you tips and ideas, tactical things you can take to the mat and improve your law practice. And guess what today is no different. I’ve got an amazing guest I’m going to introduce Charlie in a minute have to thank the sponsors. They’re they’re putting the bread in the in the meat potatoes on the table. So I want to thank legalese marketing for being a great partner helping all the law firms out there with their marketing efforts, their newsletters, their social media, their websites, love Maddix, their you know, all the integrations that I have, I can thank legalese for, and of course, money Penny who’s not only helping me on my website to answer your questions and get chatting with you to get you to me. But also they do that virtual reception, which a lot of you need to make sure that you’re getting those calls answered that intake handled on a professional level. And so thank you to money, Penny. The quote of the day that was submitted by Charlie is the law best shapes your mind by narrowing it. It’s kind of deep, Charlie human. Thanks for being on the show.
Charlie Uniman [02:24]
Thank you for having me. A pleasure to be here. Yeah. So
Steve Fretzin [02:27]
why did you submit that quote? That’s an interesting quote.
Charlie Uniman [02:29]
Well, I may have mistyped the quote, it’s actually the law sharpens your mind by narrowing it. Pardon me if I miss No,
Steve Fretzin [02:36]
no, actually, it’s my terrible handwriting. That’s what that was. So you gotta you gotta write. I got it wrong. I apologize. But the law best sharpens your mind by narrowing it. You’re right. Yeah.
Charlie Uniman [02:45]
Well, I you know, I practiced law for 38 years in New York City, as a partner in various law firms. And the more I practice, the more I realized that your focus becomes pretty good on what you’re doing. But you do begin to develop blinders and see the world. Sometimes it’s only a lawyer can see it. So that’s the narrowing it. Whether that’s the only way to sharpens one mind as a lawyer is, is anybody’s guess. But it served me in good stead that quote, reminds me to look around and see the rest of the world. And it gets a few laughs at cocktail parties. And, and I don’t know who originated it, but I heard it 40 years ago, and I keep using it.
Steve Fretzin [03:26]
Yeah, that’s a good one. And I want to thank you for being on the show. Charlie Newman is the founder of legal tech startup focus, and some considered to be the godfather of legal tech. We’re just starting that right now. By the way, charlie, welcome to the show. And I’d love to hear your background and how you got went from 30 years as a lawyer into into legal tech space.
Charlie Uniman [03:45]
Sure. Although I promised as the Godfather, that’s what I’m gonna be known as, I have no desire to make offers. Someone can’t refuse. So don’t worry about that. Yeah, I practice law in the city. As I mentioned, New York City for 38 years took me that long to figure out that I didn’t want to be a lawyer. And after that, I tried my hand and starting a legal tech startup founding a legal tech startup myself, myself with two co founders. It crashed and burned after about a year and a half. But the reason I got into legal tech is really several fold. One when my daughter was born 29 years ago, up until then, I had been a computer phobe wrote with knock quill pens, but fountain pens and dictated everything I did learn how to type in high school. But with her birth, I said, you know, this is the world she’s coming into. I got to learn about tech, and I fell in love with it, philosophically, scientifically, and I just tinker and enjoy it quite a bit. And I also represented startups and venture investors. So when I left the practice of law and the late lamented deal stage, startup failed, I cast about did a few things but finally decided to try to marry the experience. As a lawyer with my love for technology and interested in legal Ted, and so I founded this community four years ago called legal tech startup focus. It’s a free worldwide community. Shameless plug in, you can go to www dot legal tech, startup focused.com. And join for free if you’re interested in the world of legal tech. And I’m fortunate to say we have as of my speaking 2244 members worldwide, and the aim is to help legal tech startups succeed, help their investors make money, succeed and help the customers by legal tech.
Steve Fretzin [05:36]
Yeah, it’s really noble cause and, and I know that it’s just a massive group of professionals that are all trying to better the industry and, and, and help continue to make those improvements. But take us back to kind of like a little bit of the history of legal tech in how it’s evolved. Even in the last, you know, a couple of years, it’s really come on stronger than ever.
Charlie Uniman [05:58]
Well, I have joked too many times to many people. But maybe this audience hasn’t heard me at all. I’ll try it one more time. I like to say that LegalTech is a 25 year overnight success. And I haven’t heard it and and that’s because way back when over two decades ago, legal Tech was just getting started. We transaction lawyers, I was a corporate lawyer really didn’t see much of it litigators, did see a lot of it with billing software, and eventually ediscovery software and finally began to widen LegalTech began to widen its reach so that others outside of litigation had an interest if they were so inclined to look at it. And yet, I was often the voice in the wilderness. I had my own love for tech. But I was the one who was saying to my partners, let’s get some technology involved. And with all due respect to myself, Oh, good partners over the years, and many of them said, No, we bill by the hour, what are you crazy, become more efficient. And it’s an old saw. And I think to some extent it, it’s still true, but it’s it’s waning, and its impact that Outlook. So we now shift to more than five years ago, I’d say, about eight or nine years ago, the Great Recession hit corporate clients, even individual clients began to say, wait a minute, what am I getting for all the money that I’m paying, and there was some pressure finally applied, big law, medium sized law solo practitioners, small law firms to be more efficient. And then with the pandemic, and it was a terrible thing and saddened by all the people who were lost and sick and badly. But for legal tech, it did have a silver lining, it was a lift, because all of a sudden, big law firms, small medium sized law firm solos were working from home and using technology as they never had before. And lo and behold, from the most senior elderly partner to the brand, newest recruit, lawyers, were saying, hey, I can work from a desktop, I can click on these things. And lo and behold, I can get work done while I’m working from home and keep the keep the lights on not at the office, but in my office at home and keep the money coming in. So that was a big change. And I think those two factors, clients getting a little bit more careful about their legal spend, and people learning by force, often because of the pandemic news technology, we now find legal tech in a position where a lot more firms and lawyers are using it in house private firms, and a lot more investors are interested in putting money into those companies.
Steve Fretzin [08:36]
Yeah, it’s it’s really amazing how fast I mean, just going to the legal tech show a few weeks ago in Chicago, and all the different booths and vendors and people and just the excitement about all the new technologies and you know, from intake to how we’re doing the case management and the building and everything, just getting automated it just making it easier than ever, for people to either branch out on their own and just improve efficiency. So that’s not they’re not sitting doing the books or they’re not sitting doing the admin or the or the marketing. It’s a lot of it’s getting automated. So it’s it was just fascinating to walk around and just see all the all the fresh ideas and all the innovation.
Charlie Uniman [09:15]
Yeah, that’s That’s right not not to say that there still aren’t some bumps in the road. I think that lawyers particularly at mid sized larger law firms are a bit bureaucratic. They are all snowflakes, I like to say they don’t like to be dictated to understandably, that’s part of what being a lawyer is all about something. So it’s a longer sales cycle for legal tech startups and perhaps other parts of the industry. And there’s still, there’s still some reluctance. We’ll talk about some of that perhaps later. But it’s a world of difference from that. Time 25 years ago when people said legal tech, what is that? Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [09:55]
And so just from your perspective, like what’s the most impact impactful like aspects of legal act when it comes to improving the way that last services are rendered, delivered, etc.
Charlie Uniman [10:05]
Well, I’m most familiar with the transaction side, but I have familiarized myself with some of the litigation, tech that’s out there. Let’s talk briefly about legal texts in the litigation side of the of the firm. There are companies out there that have built tech, that allow a lawyer who is dealing with state court matters, to be able to go in through their technology and discover all sorts of things that are collected about the judge behind the for whom they’re about to appear about opposing counsel, so that they have an enormous leg up over what they would have positioned they would have been in before that tech was available, when they couldn’t have had as ready access on a screen to the information about the judge, and about opposing counsel that they can get now with just a few clicks. And as I say, and we’ll say perhaps again, later, if you’re not using that, and your opposing counsel is, I dare say you’re behind the eight ball to bid. On the transaction side, I drafted and my junior lawyers drafted with my supervision tons and tons of contracts, wouldn’t it be great to be able to get insights about your own precedent file far more easily, because of the way natural language processing and dare I say AI works in legal tech, get an insight and how people have drafted before what the most common of phrases and precedents are, learn how often they’ve succeeded and how often they haven’t succeeded in negotiation. speed up the time and legal department in house where you can review contracts, get the job done more simply, and more quickly, so that the sale is completed, the contract is signed and salesmen are happy. It could go on and on and on. But I think in terms of time to value time to bringing value to your client, that has shortened immensely, and time to get your work done, has shortened immensely to and as I have said before, people still think of the billable hour but it’s its impact is waning and getting work done, being able to leave and see your wife and kids getting work done and knowing you can even do more work. And Bill for it is important. And that’s happening too. And mostly
Steve Fretzin [12:26]
it’s getting rid of the work that’s non, you know, creative, right? It’s it’s the laboris administrative side of the of the law that drags lawyers down to creative stuff is the fun stuff.
Charlie Uniman [12:39]
And let’s put to bed put to rest. The idea that except maybe for training purposes, but I have my doubts about that, that just because a senior lawyer had to go through all that faulty raw to get a deal done or a litigation handled doesn’t mean that the more junior lawyers coming up, have to do it. If it can be shortened and fewer mistakes made, and the product gotten out the door more quickly, without a 3am leave taking of the office, then I’m all for that. And it shouldn’t be I did it that way. The younger person has to do it that way, too. That’s not the way to look at it.
Steve Fretzin [13:18]
Yeah. And what would be a good way for a lawyer who maybe doesn’t recognize the inefficiencies that he or she has to identify the right legal tack that might solve a problem. So the people like like before a matter comes in maybe you know, maybe it’s the intake or if it’s it’s the, you know, the actual work that’s being done day to day are the follow through on that. Anything that you add to that.
Charlie Uniman [13:42]
Yeah, there’s a lot of work on the web being done by others who I don’t at legal tech startup focus, create a lot of original content. I usually curate posts and others contribute to the community. But there are blogs. There are videocasts podcasts where people review what’s out there in legal tech. I’m going to name a few names Bob Ambrogi. Is one A and B r o gi does a lot of great work on his law sites blog and is law next site reviewing legal tech there’s Richard Truman’s in the UK but he reviews as TR o m a n s of the artificial lawyer is his blog, and his video channel I believe they he to reviews, legal tech, there are now legal tech sites on the web where you can get a handle on what legal tech startups are out there and review what’s being offered in the market. So yeah, there are numerous just search LegalTech and and get an idea of the commentators and the sites that are doing reviews. There’s a big review cycle G to reviews, all sorts of software, but it also Does legal tech that’s another one to keep in mind?
Steve Fretzin [15:03]
Yeah. So I think it’s, you know, get your head out of the sand and kind of lift it up and start asking around, follow some of the, the websites and videos and groups that have that kind of content and talk with other lawyers because I think they may be ahead, especially if you know, they’re forward thinking to see what, what types like I just was talking to another gentleman earlier today that he does all of his podcast production himself, and he hasn’t figured out how to monetize his podcast. Well, that’s not legal tech, but there’s there’s a solution. He just didn’t know what it was. And I gave it to him. He’s like, That’s exactly what I want. That’s exactly when I was like, okay, so this is all that we have to do is have these conversations to start opening up that there are solutions that you may not even realize exist, and they’re right there. You just have to just have to ask or or do some research and look it up.
Charlie Uniman [15:51]
And one more thing on that if if you have a COVID restrictions finally seem to be lifting a little bit so the people are getting together face to face, look in your area, their geographic area, there may be meetups, there may be get togethers LinkedIn has a number of groups devoted to legal tech and legal innovation. So if you’re on LinkedIn, join the groups and read what’s going on there to other ways to get familiar.
Jordan Ostroff [16:16]
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Steve Fretzin [17:08]
in what what are some significant misconceptions held by lawyers, as far as legal tech is is concerned that, you know, they might want to just maybe that it’ll let you say and then that resonates with them that yeah, I have that.
Charlie Uniman [17:20]
Well, I one, one misconception that I think finally is declining. But I want to help put it to rest is that AI Artificial Intelligence. It’s all hype. Yeah, perhaps in the early days of legal texts, use of artificial intelligence, better understood as machine learning, which is the variety of artificial intelligence most often applied, it was overhyped, but I’m seeing a lot of good applications, litigation related transaction related, office management related HR related for law firms that employ AI. And no, ladies and gentlemen of the bar, it is not going to result in your losing your job. Instead, it’s going to be what Steve Jobs called a bicycle of the mind, it’s going to be an augmentation, it’s going to enable you to do the things that are that you’re doing now, it’s not going to substitute for judgment and creativity. And not for a long while, if ever were to do that. But it is going to I think make you a better lawyer. And actually, have you do more of what you went to law school for?
Steve Fretzin [18:27]
Yeah, I remember I had a contract. I needed reviewing with my my father, the retired lawyer down in Marco Island. And he he did, he had 14 pages of notes and changes to a 12 page contract. And we sat for like two or three hours on our bakery. And I said, are they going to get into this? He said no, not probably not any of it. But I will tell you that that but that he loved the creativity, of language and putting things in that would maybe skirt through. And I’ll tell you what happened ultimately, and this is just a weird side note that I got a condo with a parking space, and that the guy who sold it to me had a second parking space. And my dad put in a provision that he had to sell it in a year, or I would get title on that parking space, which was 2030 grand in the city of Chicago, the guy called me like 14 months later, and he’s like, Hey, I’m ready to run out, you want to buy my spot. And I think I may have said give me my spot. And he got really angry, but he wasn’t willing to go to you know, to go further than that. But I mean, the creativity isn’t going away. But the boring administrative elements of it that AI can help with will probably will probably make some people happy at the end of the day.
Charlie Uniman [19:35]
And remember, software doesn’t get bored. Software doesn’t get tired. It can work 24/7 And as such, it’s going to be a great backstop for the creative work that you’re doing and even some of the grunt work that remains. The other thing I want to mention as far as misconceptions lawyers have a lot of data, small firms, medium sized firms, certainly large law firms, and if that can be analyze, there are so many insights that can be gleaned that will help you transact better for your client litigate better for your client and run your firm better. And let’s not ignore all that big data.
Steve Fretzin [20:11]
Yeah. And so let’s let’s get into two more things I want to talk about one is is lawyers adopting something called like good legal tech, like what’s what does that mean? Like good legal tech? And in Why should lawyers adopt that type of mentality?
Charlie Uniman [20:26]
Well, good legal tech, for me is not only legal tech that solves a real pain point. But one that doesn’t require the lawyer who can focus immensely well, on legal matters, to devote a whole hell of a lot of time, pardon my French, to learning how to use the software. You know, we consumers are very familiar with the apps on our iPhone and Android phones and on our Macs and Windows being seized. And we’ve gotten spoiled by great user design, great user experiences. When you’re looking for legal tech, you want to know that you don’t have to spend hours and hours learning how to use it. It should be intuitive, it should be clear. And that goes into what I consider to be a definition of, of good legal tech, and the startups that are building that tech and the companies that are maintaining that tech, I think are becoming more and more well aware of that importance. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [21:23]
I mean, I just interviewed Manny Griffiths within taker. Recently. He’s, he was on the show a few maybe a week or two ago. And just the thought of how lawyers can better communicate during during a case, you know, you’ve got litigation and drags out and they go for years, and how are you communicating? You don’t I mean, I had a lawyer represent me years ago, and it went a year, maybe even a year and a half without hearing a word about the case. And I was building up angst and anxiety. And I was building up a little, maybe even a little anger and resentment at the lawyer because the lack of communication. So anything we can do to automate, anything we can do to simplify and automate is, is critical. Are there one or to three legal texts that you’re seeing maybe in the last year or two that you feel are really changing the game as it relates to how it’s how it’s just making things simple, or making things more efficient?
Charlie Uniman [22:17]
Well, a couple of them, I try not to play favorites with the legal tech startups who are out there, and many of whom are members of the community. But speaking generically, there’s a lot of really good work being done with what’s called Alternative Dispute Resolution. You know, people, as I said earlier in the podcast, have gotten used to zoom and working from their home and their desktops and not running around to places. Some of the alternative dispute resolution outfits are actually including software that allows you to conduct a mediation or arbitration from just about anywhere in the world, bringing all the parties together. And simplifying things that otherwise would have required you to be available in person not only save travel time, but even your handling of documents and exhibits can be done more efficiently with some of these tools. And there is an access to justice element of legal tech, you know, access to justice doesn’t merely mean helping people who are indigent, or who are criminal defendants, but people who can afford to pay for things and have jobs but just can’t, but are priced out of the market when it comes to really having good counsel buying a house selling a business handling a divorce, handling even a bankruptcy with tech available, reducing the prices, the cost, I should say, and thus prices, people who might not have been able to get justice, the justice system working for him now can afford better to do so. Because the lawyers to whom they’re going to lower their prices in the face of the efficiencies that they have, have garnered.
Steve Fretzin [23:58]
Yeah, and it’s I think it’s hard for a lawyer to either compete or for a lawyer to really be their best version without getting some legal tech inserted into their space. What are your thoughts on that? And, and where do you see things moving in the next couple of years?
Charlie Uniman [24:17]
Well, I think you touched on something that I may have mentioned earlier, I think we’re getting to the point where not merely as a matter of competition, knowing that your opposite number may be using tech, and you feel as if you’re at a competitive disadvantage, if you don’t use it, but virtually all of the lawyers within my practice over those 38 years, were good people who wanted to be good lawyers, not just for the sake of making money important, yes. But also, with the pride involved in handling a matter really well. I think if not now, then certainly very soon. But I would say now, if you’re not using some of the technology out there to draft a contract to keep track of what’s going on a transaction in a transaction have to keep track of what’s going on in litigation, to bring clients into your office with intake. If you’re not using it, you’re just not going to be as good a lawyer as you could be. And it shouldn’t take an ethical requirement imposed by the Bar Association, it should be the self realization that if you really want to do a bang up job, you can’t, you shouldn’t do it alone, you should do it with tech as your bicycle of the mind as that augmenting tool, only then can you really know that you’re doing the best job. And in
Steve Fretzin [25:33]
the best job for your client to and that’s part of part of the ethics piece of it is is are you really rigorously you know, protecting in working for your client? If you’re not taking advantage of what’s available to represent them? You know, rigorously?
Charlie Uniman [25:49]
I can’t agree with you more. That’s exactly right. Okay.
Steve Fretzin [25:53]
And also, on the marketing side, I don’t know if this is a wrap up point, but like, you know, the, the automations that are happening on the marketing side, I was talking to legalese, what was my sponsor and my marketing agency, about how they’re going to help me automate moving forward with some some different programs they have, I won’t get into the details, but where I’m able to have more touchpoints automated for my clients, for my strategic partners, for you being on my show, you know, I want to keep in touch with you, Charlie, I don’t want to lose touch. And sometimes I get busy. And I do. And I don’t want that to happen. So if there’s a way for me to automatically reach out to you, or remind me to reach out to you something, to keep this conversation going to keep our relationship going. Because I think our last conversation was terrific, I’m enjoying doing the show with you. And I don’t want to lose that momentum. But there’s automations that can help on the marketing side, that could be really critical for law firms and lawyers to make sure that they’re that they’re, you know, getting that repeat business, that sustainable book and repeat business and referrals that they’ve been dying to get.
Charlie Uniman [26:58]
Yeah, and and it could be done manually some of this stuff. But why do it that way where your marketing efforts can combine your personality and your handshake, and that good look in your eye. But but there are tools to work your calendar to work out, as you said, keeping in touch with people to familiarize clients throughout the course of a matter with what’s going on. And during your busy day. You shouldn’t necessarily have to remember all of this stuff. Right? The machines do it for you.
Steve Fretzin [27:31]
Yeah, I mean, it’s again, I’ll always be a mix, I don’t think it’s ever going to be you know, robots versus us, right, we get the mix. And then we just have to apply it in the spots that are going to make us more efficient, and just better. You know, not only practitioners but also better, you know, better at developing and keeping and maintaining relationships, I think that’s something that is a, I don’t wanna say a lost art, but it definitely, you know, people let things lapse that happens all the time.
Charlie Uniman [27:55]
Yeah, I agree. And I think business development is, is going to become much better in getting clients coming into the door with the inclusion of technology.
Steve Fretzin [28:07]
Yeah, I used to joke, you know, if for people that are anti LinkedIn, just as an example of an automation that everyone knows, and uses in design, and I said, Hey, if you’re if you’re on LinkedIn, but you’re not getting anything out of that, I said, it’s like grabbing your phone, and throwing it in a toilet and going back to rotary. Exactly. For those who know Rotary, you have if you if you know, the technology can learn the technology and use the technology and realize this is so much better than anything that’s ever existed as a relates to how we build our brands, how we get out content, how we share information. LinkedIn is the bomb.
Charlie Uniman [28:40]
It is and it No, it’s a good tool to use, but it doesn’t substitute for the creativity, as you put it, in the judgment that you know, we lawyers and we human beings bring to the party. And someday they’ve been happens a long way away. I wouldn’t worry about
Steve Fretzin [28:55]
- Right on. All right. Well, let’s wrap up with our my favorite segment to wrap things up, which is game changing books. And you were so kind to send me your favorite book, which is zero to one to talk about that.
Charlie Uniman [29:08]
That is a book that I read, I think when it came out, I’d say five or six years ago, written by Peter Thiel, who is somewhat controversial politically, but is undoubtedly a successful business person. He was one of the PayPal Mafia who helped to create Pay Pal and now he’s a major investor. And the book is is how to manage a startup, not just legal tech, but but any startup and one of the most important thoughts that he conveyed there was when when he’s interviewing someone or wanting to get an idea of what that someone is thinking about. The question he asks is, what is the thing that you believe that is so contradicting to all the other conventional wisdom that’s out there? And that’s a marvelous question to ask, What do you believe that most people oppose and why and You know, for interviewing purposes and just to get to know someone, and to even, you know, probe your own thinking it’s a great. It’s a great conversation starter and more. But the book if you’re interested in early stage businesses do read the book, a lot of commentary on it. But it’s it’s a, it’s a damn good read.
Steve Fretzin [30:18]
Outstanding, outstanding. Well, Charlie, people want to get in touch with you. They’re intrigued by legal tech, they’re intrigued to learn more. Again, I know you gave your details earlier, but let’s give them again and make sure everyone knows how to reach you and how to get you know, the legal tech startup focus, you know, to get to get inserted into that into that world.
Charlie Uniman [30:36]
Sure. Well, I welcome emails, Charlie, ch, ar l IE, at legal tech, startup focus.com. And you can go join the community, the ever growing community, I’m happy to say it’s free, called legal tech startup focus by going to as I mentioned, www dot legal tech startup focus.com. I myself do some podcasts, I put out a weekly newsletter that summarizes the prior weeks posed to the community, other events are in the works. And if you’re interested in any aspect of legal tech, particularly startups, that’s what we focus on. That’s what the names about do join.
Steve Fretzin [31:15]
All right, Charlie, Unum in the godfather of legal tack, is the name that you’ve now been given. You’ve been chosen, I’m giving you one of these things. And thank you for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. And I mean, just, I mean, we can only touch on the subject, right. I mean, in 30 minutes went by in a flash, I mean, have that even happened, but again, you know, thanks for being on the show and for for putting your time and pleasures all mine. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Awesome, man. And he everybody, thank you for spending some time with Charlie and I today. You know, look, I hate to pat myself on the back. But another awesome episode and opportunity to, to get some great ideas and thoughts on legal tack. And just, you know, if you haven’t taken the big step in, maybe take a small step in, you know, just start start paying attention. And if you’ve already taken the big step in and, you know, keep on top of it, because things just keep getting better and better and better, and how efficient we can become I mean, I have auto scheduling now, and I’ve had it for the last year and a half and man who just that one thing. Game Changer. I love it. I love not having to go back and forth on dates. It’s little simple things like that, that just you know, probably saved me 30 minutes a day. So how can you save 30 minutes a day, an hour a day, maybe two hours a day, that adds up and that’s all billable time or that’s all time you can go out and build your book of business and again, be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe everybody be well, we’ll talk again soon.
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