Chris Engelman: A Look at the Financials for Lawyers

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chris Engelman discuss:

  • Understanding what your client is looking to do and what their challenges are.
  • Common mistakes lawyers make with their finances.
  • Similarities between wealth management advisors and lawyers.
  • Be proactive in building your client relationships.

Key Takeaways:

  • Take a step back and think. Newspapers are in the business of selling newspapers and what sells is bad news.
  • There is risk in both small firms and law firms. The types of risks being made are just different.
  • People will spend what they make. Working with a financial planner will allow you to spend that money wisely for your future and what you want out of your life.
  • Your wealth advisor should be treating your money the way they treat their own.

“It’s knowing how these clients are going to tick. Knowing what their hot buttons are, what they’re concerned about, what’s going on with their family, what’s going on with their health, and being a real human being.” —  Chris Engelman

Connect with Chris Engelman: 




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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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lawyer, clients, people, money, wealth advisor, investments, chris, steve, business, firm, spending, markets, relationship, risks, paddle, deal, parkside, listening, practice, legalese


Chris Engelman, Narrator, Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Chris Engelman  [00:00]

That’s knowing how these clients are going to tick. Knowing what their hot buttons are, what they’re concerned about what’s going on with their family, what’s going on with their health, and being a real human being.


Narrator  [00:21]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time for greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:43]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. And this is my announcer voice apparently, so good to have you. I’m happy to put together another show and continue to give you value as you are a valued listener. If you liked the show, and this isn’t your first time. Please take a moment to like us on your Apple phone or anywhere that you’re listening to this podcast, be that lawyer. And I want to take a moment before I introduce Chris who’s waiting in the wings. Hey, Chris.


Chris Engelman  [01:11]

Hey, Steve, how are you? It’s all good, man.


Steve Fretzin  [01:14]

Very good. Let me take a moment to thank our sponsors we’ve got three sponsors now we’ve got practice Panther who’s killing it on the practice management side we’ve got legalese marketing, he’s killing it on the social media, branding marketing side and of course, money Penny. So if you need a a live Virtual Receptionist or someone on your website to make sure you don’t lose people, that’s what money Penny does. And they’re the best love money. Penny. Um, Chris, thanks for being on the show. Welcome. How are you?


Chris Engelman  [01:45]

I’m doing great, Steve. I’m really looking forward to being on the show here.


Steve Fretzin  [01:48]

And how are you better oppress us? We’re all counting on you.


Chris Engelman  [01:51]

I remember when you first got started, there are a lot of doubts about how many shows you to actually do and you’re already past the number 200. That’s yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [01:57]

yeah, I had my dad, Larry Fretzin on the show got to interview the old man and see what he has to say about practicing law. It was kind of fun to kind of sticky to do. But But look, the guy had crushed it in his career. And he did put money away and he’s living off of those retirement savings. And I hit him up for for taking my brother and sister out of the well and he wasn’t going to have it. So I made the effort didn’t happen. I’ll give you some techniques for that later. Oh, man, I should add you on the show first. Chris, you were so kind to give me a quote of the show. And I think it’s so funny, and I want to hear why you submitted it. It’s only when the tide goes out. You discover who’s been swimming naked. That’s a warren buffett buffet. Warren Buffet. I think that’s how it’s pronounced. Anyway, that’s his quote. Why did you submit that quote? I think that’s hilarious.


Chris Engelman  [02:43]

You know, when I we’re looking at markets right now. And whether we’re talking about technology, stocks or cryptocurrencies, and it’s a little sexy quote, maybe not if you and I are swimming naked. But the idea of what’s going on in the market. Everyone’s always asking me Hey, how am I going to make some money or yeah, this thing gonna tank? That’s not necessarily what we do, or I should say, that’s a portion of what we do. Looking at markets, trying to figure out whether good investments, more importantly, trying to keep our clients from making bad investments. Yeah. It’s a tough time out there. No crystal ball. We all have crystal balls.


Steve Fretzin  [03:23]

There’s a lot of crystal balls going out. It’s


Chris Engelman  [03:24]

a lot of crystal ball. I


Steve Fretzin  [03:25]

got I got the one that you shake up and then look and see what it says


Chris Engelman  [03:27]

right. Now we’re okay. We’re okay with the eight ball there. The eight


Steve Fretzin  [03:32]

ball. Okay, the magic eight ball. Chris Engelmann is my friend. He’s my client. He’s with Parkside investments. He’s my paddle, buddy. Now he’s getting into pickle and you’ve been playing tennis forever. How did you finish out your your paddle season? I think everybody wants to know,


Chris Engelman  [03:47]

you know, I was pretty much 500 It was funny. I played some series eight. I was 500 I played some series for us. 500 then I played series three and that was 800 on that one. Ah, really doesn’t matter what series you play. It’s all about what cord you’re playing and who’s your partner that day? And yeah, you come out with the right attitude and


Steve Fretzin  [04:08]

when you have a partner you can communicate with I had a partner where if I said anything like he lose his mind on me like if I have if I notice something we need to change is like what I don’t change. This is the how I do it. Oh my god.


Chris Engelman  [04:19]

And maybe it’s how you approach that part. Right? No, no, I approached him in a yellow


Steve Fretzin  [04:23]

skin with a no I approached him with a knife. It was fine. You know, he should have he should have taken my advice. You know, as the club champion of my club, you know, you should take the advice of the club champion even if he’s not if he’s not wielding a knife.


Chris Engelman  [04:34]

It is amazing that your club champion two times


Steve Fretzin  [04:37]

why why would you say that? I don’t appreciate that.


Chris Engelman  [04:41]

It’s, you’re amazing. You’re


Steve Fretzin  [04:43]

amazing. I think you’ll make amazing amazing believe it No, okay.


Chris Engelman  [04:49]

I don’t want to ever play paddle with you knows that. You should be club champ.


Steve Fretzin  [04:52]

Hi. All right now we’re now we’re tired. Now. I’m going to release this episode. Okay. Okay, so Chris, you are again With Parkside investments, you’re a wealth manager and what does a wealth manager do? And give us a little bit of your background as well? Sure.


Chris Engelman  [05:07]

So graduated from college with a political science degree. People asked me, How do I get into investment management from there? And I said, Well, when I was in college, I used to wake up in the morning, read the New York Times, I wake up in the morning and read the Wall Street Journal. Yeah. So I did that for a couple of years, went to business school down in Washington University in St. Louis, worked with institutional clients down there during business school, and after business school, including some family offices. And then I met a girl in Chicago, was traveling back and forth. And next thing, you know, I’m back in Chicago and working with basically the same people who have worked with the last 20 plus years, helping our clients, many who have been with us for that 20 year period as well. And helping up clients with mainly families. Most of them be multi generational families, where we’re traditionally dealing with two and three generations of any individual family of families, right, that we work with. And obviously,


Steve Fretzin  [06:07]

you know, I’m not sure when this episode is going to air exactly, but it probably in we’re in August, and what do you I mean, I’m not looking for you to like, give us information about but it is a crazy, like, I’m waiting for recession to happen. And I keep saying that it’s not happening, or it is happening. And I don’t I’m not calling no one’s calling it that yet. Or saying that it’s here. We know about inflation. But you know, in the markets have been weird. But I mean, what do you kind of seeing out there? What should people be thinking about is the market is looking insane?


Chris Engelman  [06:36]

You know, I think that I would encourage clients to take a step back, the newspapers are there to sell newspapers, and what sells is the bad news, right? What doesn’t sell is the fact that we have 96% of the population actually employed, making money. Now granted, the dollars they’re making today may be only worth 96 cents on the dollar compared to what they were making last year. Yeah, you have 8% inflation, but people gotten 4% raises, so we’ll call it 96 cents. But when you have 96% of the population employed, you have twice as many job openings as people applying for jobs. The economy’s actually pretty strong. And that’s a good thing. So if you take a step back and realize that the new newspapers have their sell headlines, bad news sells headlines. But maybe things aren’t quite as bad as what people think they are. Well, I think it


Steve Fretzin  [07:33]

also depends on you know, how you’ve set yourself up for success. I mean, if you’re, you know, in credit card debt, and, you know, over your skis on a way that you’re living your life, that’s probably not true, it’s not super helpful, either.


Chris Engelman  [07:45]

They’re very, very true, you know, part of part of what we do is obviously, the investment portion of it. And as I was talking about earlier, that’s sort of the sexy portion saying, what’s gonna work, what’s not gonna work and certain talking about individual stocks or bonds, or alternative private equity, real estate investments. But what we really do is sit down with clients. Ask them really two questions. First one, what are you looking to do with your funds? And what are you looking to do with your life? And then secondly, what are your challenges, your frustrations and concerns that I had the minute to get stalled? stole from you, Steve. But trying to understand what that client is looking to do with their funds, understand what their challenges, frustrations and concerns are? And attacking those challenges, frustrations, concerns, they may have to say, okay, one by one, how are we going to go about doing this and coming up with some real solutions that are implementable? And if you’re able to do that with the client, that’s how you’re able to establish this multi decade, multi generational type of relationships that we have.


Steve Fretzin  [08:52]

Right, and, you know, obviously have a unique, you know, client base and audience and made up of lawyers, and what are some of the common mistakes that lawyers make with their finances, things that they, you know, get into trouble with, then are there challenges, frustrations, concerns that they would share with you?


Chris Engelman  [09:07]

Yeah, no, I think being a lawyer, being a lawyer is a different means a different thing to everyone. It’s very different. If you are working for a small firm on a contingency basis, versus for working for a very large white shoe law firm, and how your compensation is structured accordingly, based on both those and by the way, you can be making just as much money one of the other neat any the one that we feel is wrong, but I don’t think lawyers necessarily take into account the risks that they have in their business, and how that should be translated into a wealth management plan, or an investment portfolio or how much risks you should be taking with your investments.


Steve Fretzin  [09:55]

What would be an example that maybe you’ll give me to one on the side You know, solo, small, firm potential contingency side and then one on the big firm side? What are the kinds of risks that you’re that you’re speaking of?


Chris Engelman  [10:07]

So obviously a smaller firm, especially if contingency firms, you got to make sure that you have the working capital in the business to survive. So the first thing I say to them is, okay, do you have the working cap on the business, and then you do have the working capital. So I have an extra risk? Reserve, I’ll call it for your personal needs as well. Because you never quite know, when that multimillion dollar paycheck, or potentially smaller, multimillion dollar paycheck could be coming in.


Steve Fretzin  [10:43]

But it could be a feast or famine. And when it’s famine, you got to make sure you’re protected. You’ve got you know, the canned beans in the in the bottled water, you know, available for when things get when things get a little dry.


Chris Engelman  [10:54]

Exactly. And so once you have that pot in place, then you can go out and take risk with the rest of that portfolio. addict? And


Steve Fretzin  [11:04]

how about on the other side, the white shoe firm lawyer who, you know, might be making, you know, half a million to a million dollars a year? What kind of risks are they potentially taking?


Chris Engelman  [11:16]

Yeah, a lot of them are, clearly they don’t have as much risk in the business per se. But a lot of them are spending so much time focused on their clients, that they have the shoemaker problem. That is there’s so much focused on the clients, that they’re not focusing on themselves. They’re not they’re sitting on way too much cash in their portfolios, because they just don’t have the time to really think about that. Yeah. And attacking that type of problem putting some type of systematic program in place, or turning over the cash to someone like me, who is focused on their money, and what is right for them. That’s an opportunity for them to


Steve Fretzin  [11:58]

and they may not really know the answers. So there’s, there’s maybe they’re paying too much in tax, you know, maybe they know to get that cash, they gotta they gotta go through and pay all that tax. And maybe there’s ways to, you know, not gonna round it, but like to make sure that you’re using the system in your favor.


Chris Engelman  [12:14]

Exactly. And and there are retirement plans in place, especially if it’s a pie itself, biters are smaller firms that you can put in to defer some of that income that you may have coming in. So that you’re not paying as much in taxes as well, I don’t think this but that’s a sort of a common practice across all small business owners, not just lawyers. But it’s definitely a an idea of, Hey, how can we go out and minimize the amount of taxes? Because the more money you save from that perspective, the more money you’re going to have?


Steve Fretzin  [12:49]

You know, is it also an issue that, and I don’t know if because things have been so good for the legal community that this is an issue, but I think it’s like, people make more money, but then they spend more money. So like, there might be people that have no clue about how much they’re spending to how much they’re taking in. And then, you know,


Chris Engelman  [13:07]

it comes back to haunt them. Yeah, my grandfather used to tell me that the more money you make, the more money you spend. And I think all of us can think about their careers and saying, when we first graduated from college, we might have been making 20,030 $35,000, we’re making $35,000, you’re probably doing pretty well. And now you look at what you’re spending today and say, Wait, how could I live down what I had back then, you know, what people would make what they spend, to some extent, we have plenty of clients, you get to a point in life, for where you are making enough money. And you don’t really want to change your lifestyle, just because you have more money. Yeah, that’s a nice place to be.


Steve Fretzin  [13:51]

And I’ve got a friend who makes a million dollars a year, approximately, and he’s always out of money. And so he’s asking his father for money, and he’s trying to get his in laws to pay for this and that his expenses are just so high. And it’s just, you know, and it’s just, I just think about it, I’m like holy mackerel, like, you know, when you look at that kind of dough, but there’s I don’t, you know, he’s not solving anything. He’s just kinda like, you know, patching it up.


Chris Engelman  [14:16]

He’s absolute patching up and, and the question is, is he nervous?


Steve Fretzin  [14:20]

Oh, yeah, he’s always every time I talked to him, he brings it up. Like he, you know, and a lot of it has to do with his wife spending and, you know, their kids have special needs. And so there’s, there’s money there. It just keeps going with it goes on and on and on. And I don’t know, like, I don’t have, you know, a direction for him to get out of it. But I think there’s other lawyers that are listening to this that might say, you know, what, I’m kind of living beyond my means. Are there are there things that you work with lawyers on to get budgets and to start to figure out, here’s what’s coming in, here’s what needs to go out and how do we get in a better direction?


Chris Engelman  [14:51]

Absolutely. Going back to the idea of what are your challenges, your frustrations and concerns? Yeah, I don’t like to tell people sitting down with people saying okay, show only spend 100 $100 on utility bills instead of 130. That’s not what I’d like to. But I do like to sit down people and say, Okay, how much money do you have coming in? Let’s look at your bank statement. Okay, where are you actually spending the money? Right, your credit card statements given a broader idea.


Steve Fretzin  [15:18]

Here’s here’s a suggestion. Don’t have a boat. Right? You always say never want to own a boat. I just want to know people that have boats because I think boats like they turn out to these huge money. People keep just dumping money into it.


Chris Engelman  [15:30]

You’d be surprised that the number of people especially through COVID have actually made money by selling Yeah, so let’s say


Steve Fretzin  [15:40]

that we never realized it wasn’t it wasn’t investment, we always thought it was just a depreciating asset. It just put down and down and down.


Chris Engelman  [15:46]

Yes, that’s so funny. So before you say don’t own a boat, but you’re but you are absolutely correct that you got to sit down you got to figure out what is the priority Yeah. From there making that appropriate investment decisions from there.


Steve Fretzin  [16:04]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:03]

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Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [17:07]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:20]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:41]

Very cool. Thanks. So let me let me ask it this way. How is being a wealth manager maybe similar to being a lawyer? I mean, you’re managing clients and working with them to solve problems, lawyers are doing the same thing. How do you see that the similarities between what you do and what lawyers do?


Chris Engelman  [17:55]

Yeah, I mean, we’re both in the service business, and dealing with highly professional people, and helping them solve their challenges and people who we have an expertise in investments and money, you have an expertise in the law, or your clients have the expertise in the law. And we are bringing that expertise in a very practical approach of what we refer to as having that real conversation. What are you looking to do with your life? What are those challenges you face? And let’s tackle it one by one. And it’s a very simple,


Steve Fretzin  [18:34]

then it Chris, I think, you know, when we work together, one of the things I think that really resonated with me and I think resonated with you is that the mantra prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. And so I think there’s an element of people looking for solutions, and they want them fast and just tell me what to do and all that. But we got to step back and ask questions, we’ve got to be, you know, excellent at listening and empathy, and understanding. Because the reality is that that, you know, just just throwing solutions out of people and invest in that and and solve this and solve that. It’s not necessarily a one size fits all, but that’s how people want it to they just want to tell me what you charge or tell me what you know, it’s gonna take or whatever. And that’s not the conversation you want to have. And I don’t think it’s the conversation lawyers want to have. What are your rates?


Chris Engelman  [19:23]

It’s exactly you nail on the head right there. There we go. It was so expect that but you’re right. It’s the idea of the best client relationships that we have a real relationships. Clients over time become our friends. They understand that we’re looking out for their best interests. Sometimes they don’t necessarily want to hear our advice, but we got to give it to them. straight shooter. Anyways, it’s not always good news. That’s not always good news, especially the markets what they’re doing this year. But I


Steve Fretzin  [19:55]

mean, I like the idea that the relationship with the Client and I think in a high level of communication, I think that’s something that lawyers struggle with is the right amount of communication. And how do we keep our clients engaged with us? When there’s a something there’s nothing going on? So we’ve got to keep them engaged, because the relationship depends on it. The sustainability of that client, the loyalty that client, it’s all based on the relationship and the service you’re providing excellent service you’re providing. So are there things that you do or suggest to Kevin on to maintain the relationship to strengthen the relationship as after you get the business?


Chris Engelman  [20:32]

You know, it’s much more for us and much more customized approach? Yes, we have our quarterly newsletters, yes, when the markets are going haywire, we may send them a special note that doesn’t do anything, and we send them Birthday Candy. And I think they do appreciate the Birthday Candy. Don’t get me wrong. But it’s knowing how these clients are going to take, knowing what their hot buttons are, what they’re concerned about, what’s going on with their family, what’s going on with their health. And being a real human being. And just checking in with them in the way they think they want to be checked in with, you know, I funny clients that I’ll call them up and say, let’s meet, because we haven’t met in over a year. And they say, I didn’t want to meet with you a year ago, and I don’t want to meet with you now. And I have other clients who I’ll talk to daily, not a lot, but a few. And 98% of my clients when I’m talking to them, we’re not talking about what’s going on in the markets, we’re talking about what’s going on with their life. And knowing what’s going on with their life is going to help us make better financial decisions for them in probably the same way of what’s going on with their business, what’s going on with their life is going to help you make better law decisions as well. Right?


Steve Fretzin  [21:55]

So it’s the human element, the relationship, that is what the understanding is what is driving the relationship and the longevity of the of the client. And I think lawyers can take a note from that. Because if you’re just giving them an update on the case, or if you’re just you know, handling the call when the emergency comes in, or whatever that may be isn’t enough to keep clients happy and satisfied. And in loyalty you because I think loyalty needs to be earned. And it needs to be something that’s thought about not something that you could just hope for hope that it happens,


Chris Engelman  [22:31]

right? If you can be proactive, as well as think about what’s going to be important for them. That’s all. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [22:41]

Now, Chris, I don’t know if we covered this earlier. But let’s let’s see if we did and maybe there’s a different direction we go with it, but managing money for, you know, a business owner or other clients that you have, how is it different than managing money for a lawyer? I mean, there’s significant differences in how you work with a client, a general client versus a lawyer client.


Chris Engelman  [23:05]

Yeah. So it also again, goes back to the type of lawyer and type of job they have a lot about lawyers, a lot of them have partnerships, whether they’re early in their career, and they’re buying into that partnership, or later in their career, and going to use that partnership to fund their retirement. You know, you start with that partnership document that that lawyer has. Maybe I’m wrong about this, but a lot of the lawyers that we work with have never actually met them yet. Yeah. So you said assuming


Steve Fretzin  [23:39]

that’s even if they have one in place, right? Yeah.


Chris Engelman  [23:45]

So you know, you start with that, yeah, you also have a lot of lawyers that that work with, and maybe I’ve worked with a couple SEC lawyers as well, who they invest in their client deals. And that’s the vast majority of the investments they do. So what happens is, they have 80% of their money tied up in illiquid, private investments, or all their investments are in real estate in the Chicago metropolitan area. Because guess what, that’s where their clients are. That’s not the way you necessarily go about building a portfolio. But that’s how some lawyers going out there and have built their investment portfolio. And those are some of the things that we have to take into account, as well. As you know, you have a lawyer that specializes we have a lawyer that specializes in utilities, and representing largely utility companies. And we make sure that for him, we built a portfolio that didn’t include any utility companies just because the conflict of interest right as well. Okay.


Steve Fretzin  [24:46]

So let me ask you this. If somebody’s listening in there, they’re saying alright, I’ve got a wealth advisor, wealth manager, etc. And I don’t know if if he or she is the right person for me or if I need a new one, or if I don’t, what should people be looking for? Are as warning signs that they’re well, and I’m not saying to badmouth anybody, I just general warning signs that a wealth advisor isn’t doing his or her job, or making sure that you are being prickly. Well, you mentioned about how you really protect in an advocate for your clients. But that’s not may not be happening, what are some some things that they should be watching out for.


Chris Engelman  [25:18]

So this is the first, this is the most important thing. After your family, your money is the most important thing you have. And you want that wealth advisor to be treating your money, like it is their money. So what does that mean? First of all? Do they invest their own money in the same things they’re recommending? For you? You would be surprised by the number of Wealth Advisors out there that don’t do that. Or they use a third party Wealth Advisors for their own money. Yeah. Especially when you started to deal with more Wealth Advisors from a bank. You know, it’s, you want people to be investing their own money alongside their money so that everyone has their interests aligned, right. That’s the first thing you want. Second thing is you want someone who you can confide in, obviously, when dealing with money is a very emotional thing. And to be able to talk about those emotions that come along with money, and come along with what are those challenges, your frustrations? You want your wealth advisor to be doing that if someone like, like, no, he’s fine, or she’s fine, but you probably don’t have the right person in place when you have that thought. There. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [26:57]

So I think the two things you mentioned that resonated with me was number one is they should be treating your money the way they treat their own, it’s not you know, that that’s a sign that they know what they’re doing. Because they’re, they’re, you know, they’re not, they’re not be asking you, it’s this is what they’re doing for themselves. And that should be you know, that should be if they care about their money, they’re going to care about your money, the ability to confide and have that, you know, relationship and that confidentiality and be able to be honest, when things aren’t going well, or when things are going really well of what to do, is there some level of either years of experience or pedigree or something else that they should be looking at, as a relates to making that decision of who to choose.


Chris Engelman  [27:40]

You know, there are certain degrees that people have, whether it’s a bachelor’s degree MBA, CFA CFP, those are all nice to see people have, it shows a certain level of commitment to the profession, which is nice for people you to have. But it’s not the end all be all. Now, I will say this, am I smarter 25 plus years into my career than I was five years into my career? Absolutely in multiple different ways. None of them having to do with how to manage money, per se, okay. And it’s really comes down to sitting across the table from the person, do I trust this person, that they’re gonna do the right thing with my money here, and if they don’t do the right thing, that’s then you, you want to be as far away from them as they can.


Steve Fretzin  [28:36]

Yeah. And I found with market volatility, that a lack of responsiveness or a lack of proactive responsiveness, reflect, to think proactive responsiveness. Or just being proactive with communicating with me, when I’m in an urgent situation. So like, you know, I think when the market tanked in 2008, you know, everything went down, and I don’t think, you know, there was any communication at all. And I just, I just was like, I was, like, blown away that someone would manage my money and not talk to me ahead of it or even after it, to kind of say, you know, here’s what’s going on. And that’s what I was watching out for.


Chris Engelman  [29:16]

It’s the same thing with being a lawyer when you know, clients is having some type of issue with the business their reach out, yeah, the pro se how they’re doing, see, how could you help in any way which may not be held from a law perspective, but giving them some referrals and people to talk to and other areas that may be able to help their business? That’s what good lawyers do, and that’s good financial advisors do as well.


Steve Fretzin  [29:44]

Yeah. And it’s, again, you’re looking at the business more than just you know, the money you’re looking at the relationship and you’re looking at the human being and what do I need to do outside of, you know, protecting their money to add value or to you know, step up in a in an urgent situation. Jim, Chris, thank you so much, man. Before we wrap up here, you submitted a game changing book. And when I saw the title of the bucket, I did smile a little bit. You want to share what your game changing book is.


Chris Engelman  [30:12]

So it was a football game of sales pre selling. Sounds familiar? Okay, but an author by the name of Steve Fretts.


Steve Fretzin  [30:19]

Oh my god. All right. So now we’re just in a whole nother level of usability.


Chris Engelman  [30:25]

I will say this, Steve, and I don’t want to make you blush. But I think you’ve already blushing right now. Well. I’ve been early in my career. I remember reading the Zig Ziglar books. I’ve been to definitely many marketing strategies, have you talk to someone about their pain, you ask them open ended questions. I’ve been around some very good people who I thought could sell ice to Eskimos. And I never quite understand what their sales techniques were, why they were so good. And then going through your program, reading sales pre selling working with you, the light bulb just sort of went on. And I realized it has nothing to do with investments. It’s all about that conversation that you have talking the client about what they’re looking to do with their money, what are their challenges, their frustrations and their concerns? And having that real conversation there? People just really appreciate that human side of what we do. Yeah. Well, I


Steve Fretzin  [31:31]

appreciate that as


Chris Engelman  [31:31]

well. Or law, people in law profession.


Steve Fretzin  [31:36]

Yeah, I mean, there’s a level of, of understanding that needs to occur today that is never occurred in the past. I mean, people want to feel understood, they want to feel empathize with. And sorry, it’s been a long day already. And at the end of the day, you know, they’ll buy if they like you trust you and feel that you’re someone that can solve their problems. And it isn’t about the sales pitch or the sizzle of the state. And that’s where people that that go on, you know, quote unquote pitch meetings, may not realize is that isn’t about you know, the firm’s you know, bench at least initially, it’s not about you know, the case is one it’s not about, you know, how great you are as a lawyer or financial adviser or anything. It has to do with with how people feel about you and the level of understanding. So I tried to put that into the book sales Free selling with a bunch of different steps, but I appreciate you your kind words, and I love working with you and I’m glad that we can remain friends I still want to get I want to get on the picket cord with you and show you how I can play that sport to maybe not quite the same level but I’m trying I think we’d have some fun.


Chris Engelman  [32:37]

I’m sure you’ll be very good at pickle you’re already great club champion a paddle now here we go. Never been you’ve never been moved at all.


Steve Fretzin  [32:44]

And that Well, no. champions like to play on the same team. Your salad, your salad. Chris, thanks so much for being on the show. And people want to get in touch with you to have a conversation and they like your approach and everything. I’d love for them to reach out to you. What’s the best way for them to reach you?


Chris Engelman  [33:01]

Well, you can always google Parkside investments or email me a Chris CHR yes, that Engelmann en je e l ma n at Parkside er, que si d i n, where you can always reach out to Steve as well. And I’m sure that you’ll put us in touch with


Steve Fretzin  [33:20]

Yep. And in all the, you know, email and website and all that will be in the show notes. So just look below, you know, where you are looking at your phone right now, for example, and you’ll see all of that jazz. Well, glad we’re able to catch up. We probably need to grab a lunch or something. And we’re both in the in the same arena area together. So we just need to get together for a sport or meal or something. So I’ll be awesome. spearhead that. Awesome. Yeah, thanks again, Chris.


Chris Engelman  [33:44]

Good deal. Thanks, Dave.


Steve Fretzin  [33:45]

You got it. Hey, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Chris and I lots and lots of great takeaways. I’ve got my usual page of notes of, you know, wisdom that Chris shared. And again, if you’re someone that struggles with your money, if you are looking to make sure you make the best investments, I mean, this is a side of the show, we don’t talk I help you build wealth. That’s great. But then you got to deal with the wealth. You got to figure out how to protect it and make sure it’ll work for you not have you worked for it. So anyway, everybody, continue to listen and I appreciate you spending time with us. To be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [34:27]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes