Chuki Obiyo: Diversity and Inclusion in Business Development

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chuki Obiyo discuss:

  • Diversity, inclusion, and equity in business development.
  • Business development as a method and tool of empowerment.
  • The top challenges and concerns people face in business development.
  • The Diversity Business Development Roundtable.

Key Takeaways:

  • There is accountability with your actions in every roundtable or initiative that you take part in.
  • You must follow up after your initial interaction with a new contact. Instead of waiting, set up a next action step at the end of a meeting (such as scheduling your next meeting right then).
  • Having a business plan will allow you to prioritize your time and help you plan for your business goals. It will also help you to be strategic and intentional about those you connect with.
  • You do learn powerful skill sets in law school. Some of them just need to be translated to business development, such as research, documentation, and the ability to be curious and ask questions.


“I’m very excited about [The Diversity Business Development Roundtable]. This is solution oriented. We can ideate and strategize on problems all day. But, eventually, someone’s got to put pen to paper or take the right step. From a diversity perspective, this is absolutely a small step in the right direction. We’ll continue to add steps to that and climb mountains.” —  Chuki Obiyo


Connect with Chuki Obiyo:  




Register for the Diversity Business Development Roundtable here!:


Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



steve, attorneys, roundtable, people, business, lawyers, clients, development, prospective client, financial planner, absolutely, plan, challenges, diversity, bit, interaction, litigators, part, follow, conversations


Narrator, Chuki Obiyo, Steve Fretzin


Chuki Obiyo  [00:00]

This is the diversity in law business development roundtable specific to attorneys of different backgrounds, specifically racial and ethnic minorities. In addition to that this roundtable is really a collective wisdom. Exercise is what I call it.


Narrator  [00:22]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:44]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. As the announcer mentioned, I hope you’re having a lovely day today here in Chicago, we’re finally getting some terrific weather. And wherever you are, I hope that you’re doing well and happy and businesses going wonderfully. Obviously, this show is all about helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and to help you with that. I have a tremendous guest today and a good friend of mine. Shuki is been a business developer for many years. He’s an attorney. Chuki how’s it going?


Chuki Obiyo  [01:14]

It’s going well, Steve? Yeah. energized to be with you today.


Steve Fretzin  [01:18]

Yeah, you’re always energized. I don’t know less than energized. Shuki. I’ve never met that person.


Chuki Obiyo  [01:22]

I think energy is absolutely undefeated and underappreciated. To be honest with you now positive energy though, Steve, we’ve got to make sure we qualify that by.


Steve Fretzin  [01:33]

Yeah, I didn’t say like, here’s Chuki, the Mr. Negative energy guy, right? We could just make that assumption. You have like six Snickers bars this morning, and you’re ready to roll. But anyway, do my audience is solid and give them a little background because you have a very interesting path that you’ve taken.


Chuki Obiyo  [01:46]

Absolutely. So Steve, you mentioned earlier, I am a lawyer, coach and business development consultant. I’ve been in the business for about 20 years specific to business development. And a bit about my background, Steve. So I was born on the west side of Africa, I grew up on the north side of Texas. And now I live on the south side of Chicago. I think that connotation and orientation is really important, specific to the topic that we’ll discuss today. Also, fundamentally, just my philosophy of life, Steve. And when we talk about positive energy, I just really believe that progress is an ideal and a virtue. So when I work with clients, when I work with colleagues, when I work with individuals in my professional network, there’s always a sense of progress, that I think I activate, and I really believe in So yeah, that’s a bit about me.


Steve Fretzin  [02:40]

Yeah. Very cool. And I’ve just enjoyed I mean, I’m, I’m trying to think how long we’ve known each other. But I want to say maybe about a year Is that about right? Yeah, that is about right. And we met during the pandemic, we met at a Starbucks, we both had masks on sitting outside, it was about 30 degrees out 20 degrees out. We just sat out there for an hour and a half and talk like two old friends. And now we are two old friends, I guess. Oh, spot on. So you know, one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on today is because we’re going to talk some business development. And we’re going to do a little Dueling Banjos and have some fun with some things that we’ve learned and that we teach business development for lawyers. But the other thing is we’re going to be collaborating on something really interesting. So for the last year or so I’ve put together some business development roundtables, okay. And I’ve got two that are for lawyers that are hungry for business, they’re actively doing business development. Many of them are past clients of mine. And they’re under a million dollars in origination, but they’re going after it like crazy, okay. And then I’ve got two groups that are for lawyers that are over a million origination, and I’ve got them from about 1,000,005 to about 8 million, if you can believe that. And they work together as a peer advisory mastermind group to share ideas to help each other with their issues to, you know, everybody goes on the hot seat and gets grilled. And it’s all done in the spirit of helping learning and advising each other. And so I don’t have to really coach and train as much many of these people are past clients of mine, but it’s more about them helping each other and be supportive of each other. And even to the point where they get together once a week and, and do like accountability for getting business development done. Because that’s sort of the greatest challenge for lawyers is just finding the time to do it. And like having a workout buddy, they’ve got these teams set up where they go out and do that. Now, that all being said, you and I are working on something a little different. Can you describe what that is? And then what’s the event we have coming up? That’s going to promote it and help to explain it?


Chuki Obiyo  [04:31]

Yeah. And Steve, you know, before we get into the details of this, I do have to say just person to person, phenomenal job of the platform that you’ve created here with the podcast, as well as with the roundtable initiatives. I know that attorneys are really empowered as part of these business development roundtable series. So kudos on that, Steve, just, as I said, man to man, specific to the initiative that you and I have discussed that it’s nice. There’s quite a bit of momentum that we’ve picked up on this. So this is the Verse three in law business development roundtable, specific to attorneys of different backgrounds, specifically racial and ethnic minorities. In addition to that, this roundtable is really a collective wisdom. Exercise is what I call it, where these attorneys that are business development minded, can get together share best practices and power each other around driving business development progress specific to their books of business. And these are attorneys across different practices, right. So you don’t have to be a litigator or a transactions attorney. This is cross practice, focused, we have a specific webinar that kicks us off, literally in a few weeks, July 7, at 8am, central Chicago time, but really anywhere across the world, really, you’re the nation you absolutely can join in. And, Steve, I believe there’s a resource link that you’ll provide as part of your Fretzin website. Is that correct? Yeah. And so


Steve Fretzin  [05:59]

in the show notes for this podcast, there’ll be some information. But if you just go to my website, and click on the Events tab, you’ll see it and you can sign up right there. There’ll be an Eventbrite associated with it. And it’s free to attend. But this is where you need to go in order to not only understand what it is that we’re presenting, but what’s the value? And is this something that would be a fit for you. So it’s not for everybody, we have this specifically set up with a cause in mind,


Chuki Obiyo  [06:27]

Steve, one of the things that I should note, in addition to what you’ve laid out, in outline in this diversity in law, business development roundtable is that some of these topics are a bit sensitive, right. And certainly these views expressed are my own. But there’s a disposition of being humble, and having a hustle mindset in approaching some of these topics. So when I think of diversity, inclusion, and equity, there’s some practical definition. So it’s really bring it down from the theoretical to the practical. Diversity is when an individual walks into a room. And there are any number of other individuals from different backgrounds present in that room. That’s diversity. So within the context of an attorney that’s driving business development, this is when whether you walk into an office, or you walk into a professional networking event, and you see individuals of different backgrounds represented as part of that interaction in the room. That’s diversity, the presence of different individuals from different backgrounds. Inclusion is when you’re present in that room, Steve, and you feel empowered to have at least one conversation, you are invited to have at least one conversation of all the different conversations that are happening in that room. And then equity is when you have equal access. So all the conversations that are happening in that room, what tends to happen with attorneys of color, and attorneys that are part of racial and ethnic minorities, Steve is that you can be present in a room. So you can have diversity without inclusion or equity. In addition to that you can have diversity and inclusion, but without equity. So part of what you train on Steve, with your Fretzin initiatives, and certainly what I’ve been very passionate about over the last number of years is to use business development as a mechanism for empowerment, where diverse attorneys can take control of their book of business, they can feel empowered to have the right conversations and the right rooms, to develop the right client relationships. So in essence, I mean, that’s the passion disposition here that I take, certainly in approaching this initiative, Steve.


Steve Fretzin  [08:46]

And what I think we’re bringing to the table at this event is an opportunity for people to share their challenges as it relates to business development, working in a firm or on their own, and how a group like this can help them feel included and feel like they’re a part of a team separate and apart from their firm or from their current friends and relationships, where everyone is on the same page. We’re all working as a team to accomplish the same goal, which is growth, power, equity, inclusion, and just making sure that we have sustainable law practices. Is that accurate? That is


Chuki Obiyo  [09:19]

absolutely accurate. And Steve, the timing is impeccable, right? If you look at a number of developments that have happened within the industry, so for example, the Mansfield rule, this is all around how do we empower attorneys of color as part of the recruitment and retention processes at different firms? And then when you think of the consumers of legal services, so these fortune 500, General Counsel, individuals, right, and executives, these individuals have now put out some proclamations right. There’s been a number of fortune 500 general counsel that have put out proclamations around how they need to have diverse attorneys represented as part of engagements right, whether as a billing attorney whether you are billing partner or associate, or having that attorney work on that matter. And effectively what a number of these corporate law departments are doing, Steve is they’re making requirements and surveys to really track those reporting mechanisms to ensure that diverse attorneys have been, in essence engaged with the types of projects that they deliver to these law firms. So law firms are challenged, right. I mean, but it’s not just that you’ve been, you know, pulled into, you know, a pitch meeting or, you know, you’re part of, you know, a broader team to help drive a client relationship. I think it’s really important that when you are in that room, when you do have the attention of that general counsel, as an attorney of color, how are you driving that client relationship forward? I mean, you’ve got the ticket of admission, but then you may not have a seat at the table. How do you keep that seat at the table? That’s precisely what we’ll explore as part of these roundtable conversations. So there are challenges that we’ll discuss their opportunities that will discuss all specifics are a number of these industry trends. And then the last thing that I’ll just call out here, Steve, is that we get very practical, as you know, and again, you know, lessons from a number of your very successful roundtables. Steve, there’s a sense of accountability with every single interaction that we’ll have as part of these roundtables where you can call it a homework assignment or some kind of a follow up action plan, that attorneys that participate in these initiatives will really be empowered to make sure that they follow through on and then you know, we’ll have a touch base, you know, we’ll have a follow through just around those. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [11:33]

no, that’s exactly it. And so I think the first step is, we’re going to, you know, have people going to the website and signing up and demonstrating interest in business development. And being a part of potentially a part of a roundtable, this is something where there needs to be a mutual fit between individuals, and you and I, and everyone’s got to have that right mindset of of interest and growth and openness to sharing and being just honest about where they are, where they want to go with a group of people that are all going to keep it confidential, and keep it as a tight unit. And so it’s not for everybody, but I think it’s great for the people that I currently work with, they absolutely love it. They love the camaraderie they love, the growth they’re seeing, and most importantly, the accountability that they’re just not getting now, it’s not coming from me as a coach, it’s coming from their peers, which I think actually comes across better. So we’ll come back and talk more about the diversity roundtable at the end of the show, just to recap it a little bit. But let’s get into the weeds a little bit about what you and I do every day, which is helping lawyers with their business development efforts. And what are like, let’s just say the top two challenges, frustrations, concerns that you’re hearing, because you’ve got your ear to the ground all the time. And you spend your whole day working with lawyers helping them overcome challenges, what would you say are the top two and then let’s talk about you and I can kind of dueling banjo a little bit of some potential solutions?


Chuki Obiyo  [12:51]

Yeah, I would say one of the top challenges Steve is following up after an initial interaction, right? So there attorneys there, and we sort of conceptualize this as hunters and farmers, right, Steve, I’ve seen that you’ve put out a number of statements on this. So when you think of business development, as a hunter of business development, as a farmer, a hunter is a little bit more proactive, you know, maybe they go out and have those one on one interactions with prospective client contacts. And then on the farming side, maybe there’s a webinar and maybe there’s, you know, you have some kind of a broader article published, and those sort of sit back and maybe form those relationships that way. So it’s sort of the one to one on the hunter side, or the one to many on the farmer side. The challenge, though, is how do you follow up? So after you’ve had that initial interaction, have you’ve written that article? What’s the follow up plan? And I think this is where some solution sets needs to be put in place, whether it’s a personal sense of accountability, where you’ll have protected time on your calendar, it’s actually effectuate that follow up, or you’ll have systems in place resources in place to help you with that follow up if you can’t dedicate the time, personally. But obviously, that’s one of the challenges. Steve, I would welcome your reaction to just this challenge of how attorneys can really follow up after that initial interaction.


Steve Fretzin  [14:09]

Yeah, absolutely. And the easiest thing that I try to instill in my clients, if it’s at all possible, is to set up a next step at the end of the meeting. So instead of having to finish a meeting, walk away, and then remember to follow up or put reminders into follow up, which, you know, those are fine things as well. If I finish a meeting with someone, and at the end, they’ve got something to do for me, I’ve got something to do for them, or we feel that there’s synergy. Let’s actually physically schedule together the next meeting the next call the next zoom, something so that it’s in the calendar ready to go, then the follow up is zero, there is no follow up because we don’t need it. It’s already happening. It’s built into the process. So that’s like the easiest thing that I could see. Now, some people gonna say, Well, that isn’t easy, because, you know, I don’t know what I’m going to do for them and they don’t know what they’re going to do for me. Well, that’s a whole bunch of other content that we did. to talk about, like how to run an effective meeting. So that’s so that you can come up with those things. And then the next step is becomes more evident and clear that it needs to happen.


Chuki Obiyo  [15:09]

Oh, absolutely. Right. And even going back before you’ve got that follow up plan, just having a business plan, right, you know, a number of attorneys don’t necessarily have what you and I would consider an effective business development plan, right. So we talk a lot about the three P’s. So when you think of the three P’s of business development against sustainable business development, where you’re doubling your book of business, or tripling your book of business, you’ve got the plan, that’s the first key, you have to have a plan in place. That plan can inform next steps around the types of networking events that you’ll attend the types of webinars that you’ll activate the types of prospective client profiles that are most interested in and most connected with your practice experience. That’s what you put in that plan. Right? So that’s the first P. And then the second piece, you know, what we touched on a little bit? So just the process, right, you have a follow up process? Do you have a research process? And then the third piece, Steve, is just this idea of Once you’ve defined that process, you know, is there an improvement mechanism in place, right, a process improvement mechanism where you’ve got that mindset of continuous improvement? But look, a bigger challenge than even follow up is just having a plan, Steve, I mean, you tell me give me a sense of maybe some of the experiences there just just inspire attorneys to put together business development plan.


Steve Fretzin  [16:29]

Yeah, yeah, in fact, I have a new round table member named Scott who’s doing great as an associate coming up and building business, and he’s very active. But he never had a plan. And we sat down and spent an hour together last week, and we put together a plan, and the light bulbs that were popping, and the guy could just see a sense of relief sort of roll over him because he then had the direction of who he was going after where he was going to spend his time how he was going to follow up, what does he have to use his calendar for in order to stay on top of it, and it was just a rush, you know, rush for him to get that and he’s working out, he’s gonna send me a draft, I think got it scheduled for maybe by this Friday. And we’ll review it together. And then he’ll really have this opportunity to have this plan where he can execute on it. And part of that plan is obviously following through and how he’s going to keep in touch with all the relationships internally at his firm and externally that he’s developed. And without that, you’re definitely missing things you need to be top of mind. Now, the other thing I’ll say is that if you have 100 200 300 people that are in your network, you’re not going to want to or have to follow up with all of them. I mean, I set up a newsletter twice a month, that allows people to get a regular correspondence from me, and they see my posts on LinkedIn, and we’re communicating through LinkedIn. So I have the touch for the people that are my acquaintances, or, or former clients or whatever it might be. But for the people that I have to follow up with, which are my new clients, my strategic partners, my prospective clients, etc, the people that are, you know, that I want to maintain strong relationships with, I’m going to have a stronger follow up step in the plan that I will for the general public that I’ve met, because I think while we want to treat all people equally, they’re not all created equally as it relates to how we spend time with them to develop business and help them and them help us.


Chuki Obiyo  [18:20]

Oh, that is absolutely resonant. Steve. And, by the way, I love the story of Scott’s success steps here that he’s taken, that’s just inspiring, right? Specific to this idea of how you prioritize your time, you’ve alluded to this, I think having a contact list that segmented, right, so to the point about how not all these contacts on the list are created equal, being very intentional and strategic about your a level contacts, B level contacts, C level contacts, and that allows you to set up a strategy to really engage with the contacts at the right, a level B level C level, right? Powerful, and in some ways to enables high station just to round things that hit your calendar.


Steve Fretzin  [19:03]

Yeah, I think that it’s important, again, to understand that we want to be kind to all but at the end of the day, you know, our time is money and time is valuable. So we really do need to break things down to segment things out and have our clients at the top of the list as far as where we spend our time and energy. And then down from there. It’s going to be our strategic partners, the people that refer us business on a regular basis, then there’s people that we’re dealing with, that may be a strategic partner may be a client and obviously they need to get as much attention as possible. And so there’s going to be levels you know, if we want to say that it that way of where we and how we spend our time, and without that you’re going to be just you’re not going to have any time left because you’re going to try to spend your time and spin your wheels with everyone. The other thing that I try to teach my clients is the ability to qualify people in to your inner circle or out of your inner circle. And the easiest way to explain that is by sharing that, you know I’m a bass Ball scout in my job is to go find talent on, you know in the field. So I go to Dominican, I go to the minors, I go to the AAA, I go to colleges, high schools, etc. And it’s my job to find talent people that can play. So let’s say that you’re an estate planning attorney, and you know that most of your referrals are going to come from other attorneys in particular, let’s say divorce attorneys. Let’s say litigators that don’t do estate planning. Maybe it’s CPAs, non lawyers, financial planners, and they’re not all created equal, right, there’s some that are very good networkers that want to feed their clients to a good resource, like an estate planning attorney, and some that don’t. And your job is to figure out not just that someone’s good at what they do, like, for example, a financial planner, but how are they going to work well with your clients? And also, are they going to be able to send you business as you send them business. And so you’re vetting them through to see how they play and see how they run and see how they hit and throw. And if they’re doing a great job, then you want to keep bringing them forward? If they’re not, that’s what I’m saying, don’t keep investing time with the wrong people, put them on your newsletter, put them in your LinkedIn, communicate with them, you know, kind of on an automated level, and you don’t have to keep spending time with them. Because you only have a limited time you want to spend it with the right people doing the right things.


Chuki Obiyo  [21:13]

Yes, that’s spot on. I do have to go back to your baseball Scout reference, maybe we’ve got to get you connected with the Chicago Cubs, because they can use your services, right, we we’ve got to get back to a World Series. That’s


Steve Fretzin  [21:27]

I don’t know if I can help on the sports level. But if they, if they you know, they look, you know, they’re trying their best, I’m sure. But,


Chuki Obiyo  [21:35]

you know, I will say this variety to the point about just challenges that attorneys face around business development. And Steve, you and I, we connect on this quite often, certainly with conversations, individuals across our professional network, just this idea that, well, hasty, well, he I didn’t learn how to sell in law school, right, they don’t teach you how to sell in law school. I think sometimes, you know, a couple of things that get lost in that shuffle. There are some very strong skill sets that translate very well into business development, that you do learn in law school, you’re in documentation in law school, right? So you can document your success as it relates to having a success plan. So this business development plan, that’s something that should be written down, it shouldn’t sort of be a pie in the sky concept, it should, you know, pencil paper where the rubber meets the road, you’ve got to have that written down. That’s documentation. And that’s something that you absolutely flex those muscles in law school. And and as part of that documentation, so having an experienced journal, right, so as you make progress on different networking opportunities, as you start to really drive referral relationships, the ability to just document some of your experiences and successes. I think that also is another layer of motivation that really drives us efforts forward. Right. So documentation is a really strong skill set. Something else that I’ll just note, Steve is research. Research is a very powerful skill set that you do learn in law school, right? The ability to research the right answers for your clients translates into the ability to actually research to get clients, right. And this is something that I try, in my conversations to really inspire attorneys to think through right the muscles around documentation and research.


Steve Fretzin  [23:15]

Can I add one to that? And that is the ability to be curious and ask questions. We’re so interested in solving problems. And we’re so interested in talking and just, you know, kind of filling the blank space of air that we just we don’t think to listen, ask questions, listen, and understand people and weather. So like, go back to my example of an estate plan or meeting a financial planner. You know, the state planner should be asking a ton of questions to understand, you know, how much interaction that financial planner has with clients? What type of net worth are they looking for? How often do those people need estate plans? Who would they currently referring now? And how’s that going? All of those questions could lead to information that allows you to qualify whether this financial planner would be a good referral partner or not. And if the referral partner says, you know, the financial planner says, hey, look, I’ve got, you know, five estate planners just like you that I’ve been working with for 10 years. So probably, you know, yeah, I’d love to send something your way. You know, maybe that’ll happen down the road. Well, you can just know that it’s not, and you can get out of there, stay friends, and move on know that there’s another financial planner that maybe doesn’t have quite the same ties and would be a better fit. So it all comes down to using the skills that you learned in law school, and then the skills that you learn after law school that need to be continued to be improved and perfected and then not tracking things and not looking back at the game tapes, if you will, is a sure is a surefire way to repeat history. So the question is, like, for example, someone that’s been trying to build strategic partners and hasn’t been able to do it, and they’ve been trying for 10 years, so you have one year of experience 10 times versus taking that year learning from it and improving and improving it. proving in which case you’re going to continue to the example also that I use, you can just go back to this is for the litigators that have been in court for 10 years, if you have your first trial, and you learn nothing from it, and then you do another 50 trials, and you’ve still learned nothing after 10 years. Well, I don’t think that’s a really great way to build a law practice and build a solid reputation as a lawyer in business development. We do that where we don’t consider what just happened and how we should improve. Why is it okay in to learn in a legal setting, but not in a business development setting? Right. Some food for thought.


Chuki Obiyo  [25:35]

Yeah. A lot of food for thought there. I mean, that’s breakfast, lunch and dinner.


Steve Fretzin  [25:40]

Yeah. All right. Exactly. I’m full just thinking about it. Yeah.


Chuki Obiyo  [25:44]

That’s great. And it’s funny. So just, as you talked through that, I was sort of thinking of any number of what I call Fretzin. Nation isms. Right? And maybe you just knew what I just invented.


Steve Fretzin  [25:57]

You just keep coming up. I’ve got Fretzin nation. Fretzin eyes as I never thought I’m a verb, but it’s happening.


Chuki Obiyo  [26:06]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, it’s a verb. It’s a noun. What’s interesting, and I got some of these insights from you. And also speaking with some of your clients. Right? I mean, just this idea of prescription without diagnosis is malpractice. Right? Yeah. Mapping back to your point about just asking questions, right. And look, attorneys are trained that this lawyers are trained that this to ask questions, open ended questions, closed ended questions, those questions, then empower your ability to diagnose the critical legal matter an issue, and then connect that with your legal solution prescription. Right. So yes, absolutely. I love that. So that’s kind of one of my Fretzin nation isms that I chew on from time to time. But


Steve Fretzin  [26:47]

I think the problem is, is that lawyers still have it in their head that they need to go out and meet with prospective clients and solve problems and show how smart they are and talk about how great their firm is, when in reality, what the prospective client really needs and wants, is they want to be understood, they want to feel understood, they want to believe that there’s someone out there that can solve those problems. And jumping to prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. And that mantra has been resonating with my clients for 15 years now, mainly, because that’s what they’ve been doing is just running out and pitching, pitching, pitching. And I actually teach sales, free selling, as you know, which is about not pitching. It’s about waiting until you understand everything first. And whether or not someone’s qualified, if there’s a good fit to make sure that the problems they have, you can resolve. And then once that’s all happened, then you should feel more comfortable presenting to someone who’s more qualified, that it makes sense that that you’re going to actually work together. So there’s so many things that you and I teach, and we work on with these lawyers. And while there’s some things they’ve learned in law school, generally, you know, this is an education that lawyers, especially ones that want to be relevant in the future and want to make sure they have sustainable books need to learn these skills. And it’s not rocket science free, there’s no brain surgery required. It’s pretty much blocking and tackling however, it is a learned skill, and it is something that needs to be learned. And so let’s wrap this up, then if you’re okay to keep going back to the diversity in law business development roundtable, because this is an opportunity for people to talk about their challengers to get some insights about what this platform is and how it would potentially benefit them, and see if it’s a fit, because it could be a game changer for the people that decide to attend, and then maybe even take it a step further.


Chuki Obiyo  [28:33]

It absolutely could be a game changer. Right. I mean, you know, we talked about some of these communities being underrepresented effectively, what this roundtable automatically does really day one is it creates a community automatically, right? I mean, just within sort of your first attendance of special I mean, there’s a community that’s already built, and then that community can continue to grow. And see one of the points that you and I discussed, and I think something that we’re absolutely committed to do is we’ll evolve this as we get feedback, right? The idea here is that, you know, we don’t have sort of the magic wand seven days a week, we’ll continue to evolve this with input from attendees and participants sort of that collective wisdom progress, right. Yeah. So very excited about the July 7 session. So July 7, session, that’s the webinar, make time on your calendars. attend that webinar, get a sense for some of the concepts that we’ll explore. And then coming out of that webinar, we’ll also have some next steps. And, Steve, as you noted, I think Fretzin website will have all the details and certainly they could reach out to you they could reach out to me directly, you know, happy to provide contact information just to explore any number of conversations. But yeah, I’m very excited about this. This is solution oriented and you know, we can ideate and strategize and problems, I think all day but, you know, eventually I think someone’s got to put pen to paper, someone’s got to take the right step. And from a diversity perspective, this is absolutely a small step in the right direction. We’ll continue to add steps to that and climb mountains.


Steve Fretzin  [30:00]

Yeah, well listen, I’m excited to do something alongside you that I know is going to be impactful to the community and impactful to a very diverse group of people. And I’m just thrilled to be a part of it. And we’ll work together to make sure people get some real traction with it. So thank you for being my friend for being an advocate and for partnering with me on this particular endeavor. I think we’re gonna have a lot of fun with it. And we’re gonna help a lot of people. Thank you so much, Steve, really appreciate it. Yeah. And hopefully all of you out there listening. If this is something that is interesting for you, the diversity roundtable, please, you know, be sure to sign up and go to Fretzin website to do that. If it’s something that isn’t for you, you’re a white guy, for example, like me, maybe it’s something you want to share with other people in your firm or with someone at your firm that is in the diversity, inclusion space. And we’d love to have you know, that information shared so that the right people can go and attend and see what it’s all about. So hopefully, again, this is just another thing we’re adding to help you be that lawyer someone who’s confident, organized and skilled Rainmaker everybody take care of the safety. Well, thank you. Alright, Yuki, take care.


Narrator  [31:05]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes