In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Dr. Bill Saleebey discuss:
- Report versus rapport.
- Doing your research before networking with someone.
- Top tips for networking wide and deep (and for improving your elevator pitch).
- Deep diving into what people really do.
Key Takeaways:
- Establishing rapport is one of the key elements of networking. You have to engage in rapport talk to really establish relationships.
- Build the relationship – talk less, listen more, and really connect with those you are meeting with.
- It takes multiple conversations to truly build a relationship and connect.
- Volunteer, get involved, do what you say you’re going to do, and do an outstanding job.
“My definition of networking is building mutually beneficial relationships over time. There’s a lot in that – it’s mutually beneficial, and it takes time.” — Dr. Bill Saleebey
Episode References:
Book: Click: Ten Truths for Building Extraordinary Relationships by George Fraser
Connect with Dr. Bill Saleebey:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billsaleebey
Website: https://drbillsaleebey.com/
Book: Networking in the Virtual Age
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/billSaleebey
Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrBillSaleebey
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/saleebey
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bill_saleebey/
Thank you to our Sponsors!
Legalese Marketing: https://legaleasemarketing.com/
Moneypenny: https://www.moneypenny.com/us/
Practice Panther: https://www.practicepanther.com/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
SPEAKERS
Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Bill Saleebey, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther
Bill Saleebey [00:00]
My definition of networking is building mutually beneficial relationships over time. There’s a lot in that you it’s mutually beneficial, and it takes time.
Narrator [00:15]
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:38]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, as the announcer mentioned, and you’ve heard me say this, if you’ve been listening to the show many, many times, I never changed. I’m the same person I was yesterday and from last year and all that fun stuff. But listen, you guys, it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. And I think whether we’re in a recession coming into recession, considering there’s going to be a recession, I don’t know what exactly is happening. But I know that in some areas of law, things are slowing down and ours are being caught. And so we really need to lean into business development and in particular networking, leveraging our best relationships, meeting new people deepening and widening our bench. I’ve got my friend Bill here, Mr. Pro visor is going to be we met at the group leader Summit. Yes. That is correct. Yeah. Yeah, that was a lot of fun and table table set at the same table. And we didn’t have any idea what he would do, what we what we actually did until afterward, we connected but that’s okay. Better late than never. And I was just so happy to meet you and get to talk with you. And you sent me this fantastic book, networking in the virtual age, which I enjoyed reading on my drive up to up to Milwaukee with my wife to visit some family. And we’re going to get into Bill’s very, very extensive background and all about him in a moment, of course, have to thank the sponsors love my sponsors. We’ve got legalese marketing, helping you on the marketing side, we’ve got money, Penny, taking that whole reception thing out of your hands and having it being done in a live manner that’s really more effective. I was on a phone tree, dealing with the big company the other day, and I wanted to kill myself. I mean, it was brutal hit one for this too for that. And none of them had anything to do with what I wanted. I wanted to speak with someone and they wouldn’t allow that. So it’s just brutal. And then practice Panther helping you get organized with your practice management software and make sure you’re organized your billing, how you’re managing your files and cases and all that jazz. Really good stuff. So Bill, you have a quote of the show, and it’s interesting. I wasn’t sure I had to read it twice. Be quick, but don’t hurry. That’s that. Whose quote is that?
Bill Saleebey [02:46]
That’s from John Wooden, the coach of my from my alma mater, UCLA, better known as The Wizard of Westwood, which was his advice to his players. Okay, quick, but don’t hurry.
Steve Fretzin [02:58]
What does that mean, though, that explain that.
Bill Saleebey [03:01]
There are times when we really have to be efficient and be quick, but if you go too fast, then you’re gonna mess something up. Yeah. Okay. You don’t want to go too fast, but you want to be you want to be on things, but not
Steve Fretzin [03:14]
at the extent at the expense of making errors and mistakes that are gonna end up costing you the game or costing you, you know, clients or something like that. Okay, yeah, that’s exactly right. All right. And I’m going to try to do this last name, Celebi, Bill. Sweet, right.
Bill Saleebey [03:28]
All right. people pronounce my name correctly. Thank you, Steve.
Steve Fretzin [03:34]
Yeah, well, I I like to ask first before I destroy it, because Fretzin isn’t that challenging, but I get fried sin. I get Fritz seen I get you know, I used to say Now not everybody knows this chemical or whatever was put in search of breath mints, but remember certs with Ritson that says goldenes Fretzin. So I would say like certs with Fretzin, and then they would immediately know Rhett’s and but I think that if you’re under 30, you have no idea what retsina is and why it’s inserts and how that makes your breath fresh. So anyway, you’re a PhD, you’re an OT multiple author, right? You’ve had multiple books. You have written my books, yeah, books, you just trying to one up me with four. So thank you, you’re a networking expert. And you’re the move doctor. So you’ve got lots and lots of titles in so catch us, like take us back and share like how you came to be doing all these amazing things from being a PhD in the education space, through, you know, through the, you know, through being an author and networking expert, and Guru and all this stuff.
Bill Saleebey [04:32]
Okay, well, it started out my goal as I was going through college, and actually in a Ph. D. program was to become a college professor. And I did a lot of that I did a lot of teaching, mostly part time at the college level. But I could see that full time tenure track position was not going to come my way. So I had worked as a mover in out of high school. So I said, Well, maybe I’ll just get a job temporarily as a salesman for a moving company. And that was 40 years. years ago. So I mean, simultaneously all through doing this moving business, I would also teach and speak and write and do all kinds of things. But at one point, my sales manager said, Bill, you have to network. And this was about probably 20 years ago. And I literally said, What does that mean? Yeah, right. He said, Well, you got to meet people that do similar things and exchange leads. And but then I realized, and I was, I was introduced to larger networking groups, like providers, and I went to join providers, as a mover. And initially provider says, No, you can’t get in, you’re a vendor. And then I said, okay, and but I had some people that were lobbying for me, and I finally did get into a provider’s group. And then as I was serving up the process, so I, back about 11 years ago, I wrote a book called Connecting beyond the nametag. And I approached the managing partner of providers about my book, he liked it, I wrote it, I published it. And then as time went on, and then shortly after that, I got my own providers group to lead. And then I wrote my second book on networking, key networking tips for business in life. And then when the pandemic hit, I said, wow, there’s something else happening here. It’s virtual, this is a new, these are new skill sets we have. So then, a couple years ago, I wrote networking, the virtual age. And I continue to have a dual career as a relocation manager for a moving company, and a network expert. And I speak on networking. This week, I spoke to the Filipino American Chamber of Commerce, and I get all kinds of different kinds of speaking gigs, and I love it, because if I can help people improve their skills, that’s kind of who I am and what I do. So that is a brief summary of my history.
Steve Fretzin [06:54]
Yeah, well, I appreciate that very much. And, you know, I want to just compliment you on the book I enjoyed enjoyed reading it. You know, it’s, it’s important to even when you when you’re, you know, quote, unquote, an expert in something. And I mean, I think most people believe or feel that I’m an expert. And I’ve written a book on networking and all that, to really hear something set in laid out a different way, or to get a nugget that you just didn’t pick up. And then of course, I can steal it and use it. Right. That’s okay. But I love that the point you made, and this was such a cute use of words, the report versus the report. I just wanted to bring that up like that. I have a bunch of earmarked chapters. And that one I just right away, I was like, I have to share that with people. That’s really, really good. You want to just take up take two seconds on that.
Bill Saleebey [07:36]
Yeah, I heard that a long time ago. And it was apropos of the difference between typical male communication processes in females, and typically in by stereotypically males, engage in a lot of report, talk, let’s talk about sports. Let’s talk about the stock market. And women, enlightened men who think have more rapport talk, how can I get to know if I talk to you? And you mentioned plane crash? I would want to know more about that. Sure, I know, find out the feelings behind it and how it impacted your life. So establishing rapport is really one of the key elements of networking. And that’s the difference report. And and in order to be successful and build relationships, you have to engage in more rapport talk, you can do more talk, that’s fine, the team’s won, or whatever it was, but you’ve also got to connect and on a feeling level.
Steve Fretzin [08:36]
Yeah, I think yeah, I think having a question or two prepared when you’re going to an event to try to draw someone out to talk about their life and their family, they where they live, what they do and get that information. Or the other thing is like, people show up for meetings with people that like a prospect or something like that. And they talk about the cold weather in Chicago, or they talk about the sports or whatever. And I’m like, wait a second, you didn’t take the time to go to Google or LinkedIn or their website to, like, pick up something personal or something business to ask them about and compliment them about I think he talked about that, too, in the book is, you know, compliment them on something. What a great way to start a conversation versus Can you believe how cold it is? That’s, or the worst and I’m just saying this because it happens to me almost every day. Now I got the autographed Jordan, Jersey behind me and people right away, get into that. And that’s fine. But it’s like, five 600 times now I’ve heard about my IMDb and asked about my Michael Jordan, Jersey, versus someone reading an article that I wrote or complimenting me on a book or complimented me on my podcast, something to get into. If you’re going to sell me something or you want to network with me, you know, show me that you actually took 10 seconds and look me up.
Bill Saleebey [09:46]
Yeah, that’s become more and more relevant today. Because we can do that. I do that every time I’m going to speak to a group I go. I find if I can get the list of the people that are going to be in the meeting and I look up literally I try and look up every one of them on LinkedIn and find something out about them. So that I could say something like, oh, Illinois State University, I have some good friends of mine that State University, or so you find out something and it’s changed the way we communicate. So instead of saying, Hi, Steve Fretzin Oh, it’s Fretzin. What do you do? Well, if I’ve looked at your LinkedIn profile, or find out other things about you, you say, well, maybe LinkedIn is one thing, but I’m also going to look Steve up on Facebook and find out oh, he’s, he’s, he plays golf, or whatever it is. And then you you’re a step ahead, and people appreciate it, they say you’ve taken the time to learn something about me. Yeah. So that’s, it’s really helpful to do that. And
Steve Fretzin [10:45]
a tip on LinkedIn real quick, since I’ve got your attention, everybody is, if you go to your LinkedIn app on your phone, you can record the pronunciation of your name. And that’ll upload into your profile. So there’s a little megaphone next to your name, where people can click it and hear the actual pronunciation of your name as you say it. So that’s, you know, a little thing, but you know, it adds up, if I can start with someone’s name properly, versus destroying it right out of the gate, that’s going to help build some rapport to unless you want to make fun of yourself, which I do, because I’m basically you know, more on with names. So do you have than just taking a step back bill because I’m we’re gonna get into some heavy weeds today on the on networking, best practices, but is there a be that lawyer tipping point in your career or in your life that were things really shifted and changed? Just just to kind of, you know, I just always curious about that.
Bill Saleebey [11:37]
Well, I think seriously, one of them was when I became from being a college professor and moving guy, and I became a networking expert. Yeah, I didn’t major in networking. In college, I learned it. Um, but I had the, I had the psychological background. So I knew some of those things. And that was always interesting to me. So I think, and then, when I wrote the first networking book, then it triggered into the second and then I went in, and it was easy for me to accept that because I knew that I had the skills and want to continue to learn. And obviously, as we’ve seen with the pandemic, we continue to learn new things, that becomes a new tipping point where, you know, as you know, as a leader, that you we learned from running a group in person to learning to run a group virtually, is it a new set of skills? So always improving the skills, I think is how the process worked for me.
Steve Fretzin [12:36]
Yeah. And I think it also is proven out as a clear differentiator and how you’re remembered, because, you know, I may not remember you as the moving guy, day one, but I’ll remember you as the networking expert, who also, you know, I can refer for moving, you know, you know, business. So let’s transition before we get into best practices for networking. Let’s talk about, you know, I mean, I had struggles I think in my book is the attorneys. What is it called? Yeah, the attorneys networking handbook. It’s which is funny, by the way, because I actually have the name tag. I’m not luck, because you mentioned the name tag, right? So yes, we were aligned in our minds at one point. But I start off the book by saying, essentially, no one has made more mistakes, networking that I have, I hit them all, three hour marathon meetings, meeting with the Amway salesman, you know, getting sold constantly helping everybody but not able to focus on, you know, helping them help me or figuring out you know, I built karma, because that’s what the book said to do with the books before yours in mind set to do. So what are you seeing out there either in the past or today that are kind of the top mistakes or missteps that people make professionals make in networking?
Bill Saleebey [13:50]
I think one of the first ones that comes to mind is they talk too much, they don’t know how to finish a sentence. Think, you know, they talk they go on and on. That’s one not. And corollary to that is not being a good listener. So those are two additionally, not following up thinking that meeting somebody one time you go to, you guessed at a different providers group or a different Rotary Club. And you think by going there one time that they’re going to, if they’re a managing partner of a law firm, that they’re going to hire you to coach their attorneys. You need to build a relationship. There’s the the networking paradigm, which you know, improvisers puts forward know, like, trust and refer, but I would add an element to that know, like, connect, trust and refer that you got to make a connection with people. And I think I lied to my comment about you know, rapport, is that you take the time to build the relationship and realize it that in my definition of networking is building mutually beneficial relationships over time. There’s a lot in that it’s a mutually beneficial and it takes time. You have people that join a networking group? And after two months, they said, I think I’m going to quit. I didn’t get anything out of it. Well, they don’t get it. Yeah, you got to build a relationship you’ve got to give you and you and that’s the other thing is we get into networking, I want to get referrals. The other the better approach is what can I give and the more you give, the more that you’re eventually going to get.
Steve Fretzin [15:20]
Yeah, and so let’s, let’s balance that out. Because I think my book really focuses on like actual step by step processes and language to not only give effectively, but also qualify the people that we’re meeting with to understand their value as it relates to our network. And I even use an example of like a baseball Scout, where we’re looking for talent that we could bring into our team or onto our team. And while it’s good to build your brand out there in the ether with everybody, it’s gonna lead into my next question, which is, is it better to be, you know, broad and have a massive network of people that you’ve met maybe once or twice? And that you maybe have followed up with? Maybe not, but you know, a lot of people know who you are, but or is it better to know less people and focus on, you know, five to 10. And I think the baseball Scout analogy kind of leans into that a little bit more like you can have, you can know a lot of people, but ultimately there’s going to be five or 10 people that you’re going to want to focus your energies on, because they’re the ones that have the keys to the kingdom as it relates to referring you?
Bill Saleebey [16:24]
Well, I think that wide, deep question really depends on what you do and where you do it. If what you do is really geographically specific, and you have a limited amount of and also the amount of time you have and you have a amount of time, then you should go deep, if you are strictly in business development, and you can do business anywhere, and I’m oversimplifying, but if you can do business anywhere, then you should go deep,
Steve Fretzin [16:50]
but then you should go deeper, then you should go why why, okay, yeah, then you should
Bill Saleebey [16:55]
go wide, because you can get business anywhere. But if you go wide and you don’t follow up with the relationships, then that has a minimal value. So you got to look at what the you know what the payoff might be the return on an on time investment is, but I think those are the key and and I’ve worked a little bit with spoken to lawyers, I know you’re more of a coach, and I’m more of a speaker. And what I learned with lawyers, and I’m sure you know this is that if you’re if a person is a an associate in a law firm, and they’re told Bill hours, Bill hours, Bill hours, that’s what we want you to do and that work. Clearly, they have a limited amount of time. So their networking probably is going to be deep and more narrow because of their limited amount of time. But if you’re strictly a rainmaker, then you can go everywhere and you can join multiple groups and the more people you meet the better.
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Steve Fretzin [19:20]
But the problem with deep is that it takes not only time, maybe less time than then wide meaning less time than going out meeting on you know 1000 Strangers, you know if you can meet 20 people and bring three to five of them into your inner circle. That’s really the goal because now you’ve got a CPA, you’ve got an estate planning attorney, you’ve got a financial planner that all have the ability to refer you regular, ongoing business, the problem Bill lies within. How do I do that? These lawyers are not trained in law school or at the law firm level to do anything that you and I have now become very naturally doing. So what’s your suggestion? And then this will lead into kind of my next question about top tips for being a successful networker. But let’s start with how do we meet people, and then identify that there’s someone that I want to have a deeper relationship with, and then execute on that?
Bill Saleebey [20:14]
Well, I think you’ve got to have more conversations with them. So you meet somebody, and it takes multiple conversations and multiple contacts. You’ve got to learn about what they do. You got to learn about who they know, and whether they’re going to possibly refer you. And if you if you like them, you say, Well, I want to have more conversation. I don’t know if you can refer me but I’m going to build the relationship and see where that goes and not be impatient and not be thinking, what are they going to give me? When are they going to give me referral? If you have the faith, that you have made clear what you do, you have a good clear elevator speech presentation, and you follow up and you show up and you’re consistent, you’re going to get referrals. But it isn’t a one shot deal. It’s something that you do over and over and over again, maybe try different ways of explaining. And if you do more than one thing, some people say, Well, if you do more than one, I clearly do more than one thing. It’s not wrong for me to mention both of those things. But for somebody new, they may just want to know I’m a networking expert, or I’m a relocation manager, and they couldn’t handle the to the more than one thing that you might mention.
Steve Fretzin [21:30]
Yeah, and I would add that a big a big word for me and the clients I work with and what I’m teaching them, because they’re limited with their time is the word qualify. And so just like that baseball Scout, you know, first of all, we’re how are we qualifying where we’re going to meet the right people? And who are the by the way, who are those targets? You need to know who those targets are of the people that have the greatest likelihood of referring you or being in this? You know, if it’s general counsel’s that you’re going after? Who else is in the room with general counsel’s? What other lawyers what other professionals have those same clients or those similar audiences? And then it’s about how do we so now we met that person? And how do we qualify them forward from, you know, a little, you know, baseball field in the Dominican up to the minors, and then maybe up to your, you know, bench and then eventually your starting lineup, that doesn’t happen overnight, build to your point. So what are we doing? And what questions are we asking to qualify, so that everyone just isn’t created equal as a relates to their ability to refer us and the likelihood that they’re going to come in contact with business that you know, and by the way, the way we reciprocate as well?
Bill Saleebey [22:41]
I think part of it is you learn you need to continue to learn about people by asking questions about them, so that you say so. So if let’s say, for example, someone says, I’m a wills and estates attorney, and you’re trying to find out more about it. Well, if you don’t know anything about wills, when a state’s attorney, then you’re not going to know what other questions to ask. But if you’re or let’s just another example, employment attorney, you may say, Well, are you a litigator? Are you not a litigator? So the more things you know, and you working directly with lawyers know all kinds of variables either way, what I described as when I started in networking, I did not know the difference between a PII attorney and an IP attorney. Now, if someone says, can you refer me to a PII attorney, I would say, well, you I know you mean personal injury, but are you talking about catastrophic medical? Are you talking about slips and fall? So I didn’t know that. So the more so what I found for me networking is a lot of it is just learning. I’m learning about, you know, what’s an m&a advisor? What, how does an m&a advisor get business? How could I refer, I’ve got it in my my group, my providers group, I have an m&a advisor disjointed, I’m trying to learn as much about him so that not only could I possibly refer him, but other people in the group could confirm him. So what I do as the leader is try and dig down and dive deeper into what people do. So we can find out more, not just that elevator speech, superficial. You know, I’m Steve Fretzin. And I’m I coached lawyers beyond that, what do you really know? What does that really mean? Well, I learned more about it. And I say, All right, I know what I know how I could refer, Steve,
Steve Fretzin [24:27]
when I think that that might lead into a discussion about you know, how to how to craft a good infomercial or something that’s going to keep people’s attention. So maybe we’ll we’ll cover that in a minute or two. But I just want to I want to wrap up this little segment about qualifying that I think if you can identify the targets that make sense for you, and you can bring them up slowly through giving to them and then maybe seeing how they play ball, how they respond. How do they interact with you? Do they blow off your emails? Do they respond to your emails, do they you know, that might go back to the trust part, right if they did In a good Seinfeld ism people have heard me talking about you can keep the rest of you can take the reservation, but can you keep the reservation? People say they’re going to commit to things. And then they don’t. In fact, I came up with this as in the networking handbook, there’s the, the taker, there’s the real giver. And then there’s the apparent giver. Now we know that takers are taking they’re selling you, right? They’re not, they’re just there to take, you know, they’re not there to pretty one else but themselves, then you’ve got the real giver. And I think that’s where you bill and I fall into, like, we care about people we care about giving, helping and connecting good people with good people. And we follow through and execute, which is That’s the deal. The problem is, in the apparent giver, the apparent giver, we all know, these people, they say all the right things, and maybe they even have the best intention of following through, but they don’t do it. And then you have to check in with them. And you’re chasing after them for name that they gave you that isn’t happening. And they just those are the ones that either need to be educated or need to be dropped.
Bill Saleebey [25:58]
Well, I think the key really is one of my favorite sentences in networking, do what you say you are going to do when you say you’re going to do it. It’s good to write if somebody says are their boss, who wants to be on the committee, you raise your hand to be on the committee? That’s good thing that you did that. That’s not enough. Did you do a good job on the committee? No, you did a great job. Well, if you did a great job on that committee, I’m going well, that’s probably a that’s a work sample. Right? And that sample is positive. If that’s the way you’re that’s the way you do your business. If that’s the way you lawyer, then I’d refer you in a minute, because I know that you do what you say you’re going to do, you’re a hard worker. So that’s the key is volunteer, get involved, but not only get involved, but do an outstanding job. And yeah, you could say, well, I’m busy, well, everybody’s busy. But the people that do a great job are the ones that the cream that rises to the top, and I see it in my group, you know, not, not everybody shows up, you know, that’s the starting point, you got to show up. But then you really, you’ve got to volunteer, but you’ve really got to perform
Steve Fretzin [27:07]
that and who’s being for example, in the providers groups, like who’s being thanked all the time. I mean, those are the people that’s that’s another piece of the work product is someone’s being thanked three, four times by people, for giving referrals and being a great networker, and a bunch of people aren’t getting thanked ever, well, maybe you want to go and you want to network more with the people that are being thanked because they’re the ones that actually get it and are doing it every day or have greater needs for other services. So
Bill Saleebey [27:33]
I think that is and that is what happens in the group people go in. And that’s kind of the 8020 rule. 20% of the people are getting 80% of the testimonials, and you know who they are. And they continue to do that. And those are the people obviously, we’re gonna, we’re gonna want to spend more time with
Steve Fretzin [27:49]
Bill, we’ve only got time for two more points, because this, I don’t know how that happened that the time just totally went, just came in red. And I’m like, I’m gonna go talk here we are having a good talk. And it’s frustrating to me, because I think we could probably do, you know, two hours on this. But two things I want to hit on one is alright, so I find the person that I want to bring into the fold that is that I’m helping that’s helping me, we’ve proven each other out. Now I feel like I’ve got someone on my team that’s useful in that, that I can continue with how to what’s like the one or two things I need to do to stay connected with that person so that things don’t slip away. Because when you find a nugget, a goal, you know, stay there in mind it right.
Bill Saleebey [28:29]
You build the relationship, I think the key is you, you expand the relationship in the way I describe it is I did not get into networking, because I needed friends. But in the process of networking, I have developed some wonderful friendships. I found great people. So you build in every time you talk to someone, you learn more things and you build on the relationship if you find out that their kid that their children are going to be going to college, you. You pay attention to that. If you told me, I said, Steve, what are you doing? Well, I’m going to, I’m going to Boston with a for a college tour with my son, Bob, Bobby, and the next time I see you and I say Steve, do you have any kids? Well, clearly, I wasn’t listening. But if I’d say, out of the college shirts with Bobby goatee, go, Bill really paid attention. And he really seems to care about my son’s college. So building the relationship every time and you want to seek that person out more than ever, you know, maybe just having lunch or having coffee, but building the relationship.
Steve Fretzin [29:35]
I mean, you may actually want to put a little bit of like a plan together as it relates to how often you’re going to touch someone like that from a phone call from an email from a social component. Are you giving to that individual multiple times throughout the year? So that relationship maintains its strength? So I think you’re spot on with that. I really I wanted to spend some time on infomercial. I don’t think we’re going to be able to do that but let’s do this. Let’s Each give one tip on how to connect with an audience or an individual in an infomercial, because what I find is that most people do this. They go, Yeah, I’m an estate planning lawyer. We do estates, we do trusts, we do wills, we do probate we do bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. Next thing you know, everyone’s sleeping, and nobody cares. So what’s the suggestion to get off of the list of stuff bandwagon and get on to the bill and Steve better tip bandwagon.
Bill Saleebey [30:29]
It always comes back to me, less is more, if I can understand what you do in a couple of words. That’s all I need. I don’t need you to go on for five minutes telling me about all the things you do. Now if I want to know more. Steve Fretzin. Networking coach for attorneys. That’s all I need to know. Now. I want to find out more, I may find out what does that mean, Steve? Does that mean you go to law firms and work with the associates or the partners or whatever it is? So for me, it’s just Bill syllabi, move doctor? I coordinate residential and commercial relocations. Anything related moves I handle. Yeah. So keep it simple. Keep it brief.
Steve Fretzin [31:16]
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I just add, you know, so like mine, for example, when I talk to a roomful of lawyers or an individual, or, you know, lawyers don’t learn business development in law school with me they do. So just that one mean, every lawyer has said, we never learned this in law school at least multiple dozens of times in their life, their career, I believe, because I hear all the time. Right. So that one sentence alone, I think they get what I’m about. It’s all the stuff they never learned. So now I get what Steve does, he must teach that it’s just assumed. The other thing that I would say is that it’s good to if you want to tell people all the things you do, one thought might be to flip it around into the kinds of problems that your prospective clients have, or that the clients you work with have it sent tends to be more memorable. So instead of saying, I do estate plans, it would be you know, people struggle with how they’re going to manage their affairs after their, their untimely death. And leaving that in the hands of the courts or leaving it in the hands of people that are fighting over your money probably isn’t the way to go? Well, I’m like thinking, I just learned about what an estate plan is through the problems he was bringing up. As opposed to him saying I just do estate plans, and maybe what that means. So that may be another thought about about infomercials, but there’s a lot of different ways to do it. I just recommend having something planned out that’s to your point, they’ll simple, but also something that’s going to connect with the audience so that they get what you do versus kind of not really caring or glossing over it.
Bill Saleebey [32:47]
It’s got to be clear, it’s got a clear, concise, memorable, clever, if you’re funny, that’s good. If you’re not, don’t try and be and be funny with their elevator speech. They’re not funny, and or they try and be really clever. But if somebody says, I really don’t get what that person does, then it wasn’t a very good elevator speech you want it? Or and it’s like, is it fun? Is it are you likable? You go, I get what he does, and it was kind of fun. So, you know, I know if I can possibly refer him I will because I like him. And he it’s clear what he does, he doesn’t talk.
Steve Fretzin [33:23]
Right, right? Do they break it down? Like someone’s a four year old, I think that also helps, especially lawyers getting into legal mumbo jumbo, you know, you’re talking to an audience, even maybe other lawyers and other practice areas, and they don’t even understand what you’re talking about with specific intellectual property or things that are more complex. Hey, Bill, let’s wrap up with your game changing book, which is click by George Frazier. And I’ve heard the name before but I’ve never read it. Why that book. And what’s so wonderful about it?
Bill Saleebey [33:50]
Well, the thing that I liked most about it was that he, what he talks about is just the key to networking is clicking with somebody, and then another word is connect, but you click you go, you know, and you know that and the way I’ve thought about it recently is who do we like? Who are we drawn to and who are repelled from. So we have I think three ways we either like people are drawn to them, we are neutral about them, or could care less or we don’t like them what we want is to be mostly that person that clicks with other people. But is that awful involve? It also involves it means you’re versatile. I may click with you in this conversation, but if I talk to someone else in five minutes, I’ve got to be a little bit different to click with them. So you got to be versatile in your communication skills so that you click with a variety of people. Yeah, and I think
Steve Fretzin [34:45]
being prepared again, you know, read your research your questions, how are you going to run a meeting and you’re gonna set an agenda, the all these things add up to better opportunities to click versus winging it which again may work for you When I was were, you know pretty advanced but for other people, you know that winging it you know you’re going to turn some people on you’re going to turn some people off and you don’t really know because maybe somebody doesn’t tell you but you’re wondering why didn’t that relationship blossom while you You You’re winging it may not be the right approach that situation or many situations Bill thank you so much for being on the show if people want to reach out to you to talk about you know, they’ve got a big move coming up moving nationally, right people that are moving offices,
Bill Saleebey [35:28]
both local and national. I do a lot right within southern California but also to vary anywhere in the in the continental US, okay? And
Steve Fretzin [35:37]
if they want to like find you get your books, check out what you’re what you’re doing what the best, what’s the best place to find you?
Bill Saleebey [35:44]
The best place to find me probably starting places just on LinkedIn. Yeah, it’s probably easy bill, Celebi, Sal E y, you will also see my son who has the same name, who’s a podcast expert. But so but I’m the networking and moving guy.
Steve Fretzin [36:02]
So he didn’t set you up on it with a podcast.
Bill Saleebey [36:05]
I you know, I’ve been on his podcast. I don’t know. You know, I haven’t quite got the bug yet. But okay, how long have you been doing it quite a while. So yeah, it’s
Steve Fretzin [36:15]
been, it’s, I think I have to look, but I feel like it’s gotta be coming up on three years. And there’s got to be around 250 shows or something that’s been done. And, you know, and I love it. I love talking with people talking with you, asking questions, learning stuff, and my audience knows, you know, I’m an avid note taker. So as we go through these interviews, I pick up things I pick up new things, ideas and phrases, and, you know, report versus report, you know, whatever. And I, you know, that’s kind of my jam. But my favorite thing is just producing content that people enjoy, and that people can take in without, you know, suffering through it. I know that topic, especially for lawyers, business development, such a harsh topic for them, nobody said, Geez, I can’t wait to get to be a lawyer. So I can go sell legal services. Right, so the last thing they want to do, so anything we can do, whether it’s books, articles, podcasts, videos, to make it, you know, palatable for them, you know, and that’s my passion is just just trying to help everybody. And that’s what this show does. I hope so. Anyway, Bill, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom. This was an absolute pleasure. And I just I appreciate what you’re doing and and how you’re, you know, angling, you know, to help as many people as you can in your career.
Bill Saleebey [37:29]
Thank you very much, Steve. It’s been a it’s been a pleasure for me, and I wish you the best I can tell by talking to you, you’re great at what you do. So keep doing it. And happy to do this and hope that it reaches some people and helps them. That’s yeah, that’s it. Those are aligned. Yes. Yes.
Steve Fretzin [37:46]
Everybody, thank you for spending some time with Bill and I today and getting your networking chops up and ready to go again, whether we’re in a recession or not, I have to believe we are I am leaning in that direction. I think it’s going to hit some lawyers more than others, depending on the area of practice. But whatever the case is, you know, building your book of business, having your own clients networking effectively. I mean, these are things that are going to end up making you money, providing security, whether you’re a solo or you’re at a firm, that’s really what it’s all about is having that security and having that control in your career. And that’s what this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, like the way came around on that bill. Being that lawyer someone who’s confident, organized and skilled Rainmaker, everybody take care Be safe, be well, and we’ll talk again soon.
Narrator [38:34]
Thanks for listening to be that loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes