Emily Hirsekorn: Energy Management, Performance, and Well-Being for Leaders

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Emily Hirsekorn discuss:

  • The relationship between leadership and learning.
  • Why and when lawyers need support in their careers.
  • 4 of the most common blocks to success.
  • The learning that can happen at different stages of your career.

Key Takeaways:

  • When you are growing and learning and leading in a way that is most authentic to you, that is where you are going to be happiest and most effective.
  • Find what you really want to do and what you want your life to look like, then work backward to find out how to make that work.
  • Come up with a narrative where you are the hero of the story. You can be confident in yourself without coming across as arrogant.
  • There is so much to learn, and it doesn’t always have to cost money.

“I really encourage people to shift from time management to energy management, think about what keeps your energy up, build those positive habits, and then really focus on both performance and well-being because they impact each other.” —  Emily Hirsekorn

Episode References: 

Book: Energy Leadership by Bruce Schneider

Connect with Emily Hirsekorn:  

Website: https://www.hirsekorncoaching.com/

Email: emily@hirsekorncoaching.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilyhirsekorn/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hirsekorn_coaching/

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Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

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Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Emily Hirsekorn, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther


Emily Hirsekorn  [00:01]

So again, I really encourage people to shift from time management to energy management, think about what keeps your energy up, build those positive habits. It’s hard in large part to help people build positive habits over time, and then also really focusing on both performance and well being because they impact each other.


Narrator  [00:28]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day today. I am Steve Fretzin. As the announcer mentioned, we’re coming up on 230 240 shows and from my perspective, it’s all about helping you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and if you picked up on it, but every single week I talk about competent organized skilled Rainmaker, and today, I’ve got an expert on confidence in being a great leader, a confident leader, if you want to put those two and two together on that. I’ve got Emily waiting in the wing. How are you Emily?


Emily Hirsekorn  [01:23]

I’m good. Happy to be here.


Steve Fretzin  [01:25]

Yeah. Happy to have you. We were You were brought in by who is a Carl? Yes, perfect. Carl fix. Oh, love Carl fix. He’s awesome. Shout out to Carl, and want to thank our sponsors, we’ve got practice, Panther, legalese, and money, Penny, helping you automate your business, your law practice just making your life easier. So check them out. They’ve got some advertisements and some giveaways coming up soon. Emily, you gave me a terrific quote of the show. And I just want to share that and then get your take on it. Leadership and Learning are indispensable to one another. So that’s a John F. Kennedy, right?


Emily Hirsekorn  [02:01]

Yes, the idea where I why I love this is we think about learning in the beginning early on, we go to school and it doesn’t stop. So I work a lot with emerging leaders, people who are just getting into leadership, to keep going you keep learning as you grow, and it’s necessary. And of course, as high achievers which most lawyers are, we want to be learning continuously. And sometimes mid career, people are looking around and thinking Why Why am I not so fulfilled? And that’s a huge piece of it. People want to keep growing.


Steve Fretzin  [02:37]

Yeah, and I think I’ve heard people say, and I think I may have said this a time from time and time again, you know, when we stop learning, we start dying. Like there’s there’s so much to learn. And we just we if we don’t keep improving ourselves, improving efficiency, improving how we do things, improving our leaders, improving whatever, we just stagnate, and we end up kind of getting left behind. So I think it’s really critical that leadership and learning, you know, fits together so well, which is a terrific lead into your to your background, if you would mind giving, giving my listeners kind of a Reader’s Digest version on yourself.


Emily Hirsekorn  [03:07]

Sure, happy to we’ll try to make it concise. I tend to be long winded. There’s a big story. But but it does start with the beginning. So an undergrad I did research with Rick Snyder, who was one of the founding fathers of the positive psychology movement. And the his baby was hope. He defined hope theory for the field. So he breaks down into goals, pathways and motivation, which of course, essentially of Cote. I really have been in this for a long time, and had a little detour in law. So early on. I helped him with some research, I presented a poster at a national convention for the American Psychological Association. I loved it on the correlation between different sources of social support and hope. And I had no idea what to do with it professionally. I knew I didn’t want to be a clinical psychologist addressing clinical mental health, mental illness. So go to law school, I thought, why not? Why not? I was very, very academic. I had no idea what that meant. So I had thought in law school actually loved law school did really well there and went into private practice with a midsize defense firm. Seems like the perfect gig. And shortly into it. It was rough, which is the experience of a lot of lawyers, of course, and I didn’t have a lot of support at the time. So I had a failing marriage. I was in a new city. I didn’t have a big social support system. No family nearby. Didn’t have strong mentorship sponsorship people saying here’s some ideas for where you could go didn’t have a coach any of that. So I do left, I left after just a couple of years. Early on, I was a talented lawyer, but just left, so very fear based. But I went into ultimately law career development at the University of San Diego. So I’ve been working in law career development. For eight years, I was the attorney, working with recent grads, but also attorneys, I was the alumni advisor, in addition to working with students. So I’ve been doing this for a while in some vein, and then I had a friend of mine, I knew it wasn’t the end for me, like something else was out there, that a friend of mine approached me and she said, I’m in this coach training program, I think you need to check it out. This is really what you’ve been looking for. And she was my original coach. So she coached me through that process helped me make that transition. And when I found it, it was magic. It was connecting all the dots, right? This is what I kind of started out with, I really wanted to help people achieve their goals always been pushing people to be their very best, especially when it comes to career. Now I got married out with my legal background supporting lawyers and support lawyers in a more in depth way.


Steve Fretzin  [06:12]

Yeah, that sounds like that that relationship. And that journey into coaching was sort of your be that lawyer, tipping point. Like, that’s really kind of like the next the next thing that led to the to what your what your passion is.


Emily Hirsekorn  [06:26]

Yeah, it’s, it’s a little bit bigger than that. But yes, I mean, that’s a piece of it. But it’s also I mentioned, I had a really challenging time in my personal relationships. I, frankly, had a really hard time working with other people. Because I didn’t learn that early on when I was young school was easy for me. And I just worked independently, even in law school, I didn’t ever do study groups, it worked independently, grades, great. The problem is, when you get into the workforce, you need to collaborate


Steve Fretzin  [07:01]

with other people, they’re the star and other people


Emily Hirsekorn  [07:05]

being the million professionally, relationships matter a hell of a lot, I came to find out,


Steve Fretzin  [07:11]

no doubt. And thank you, Emily HERSA. Corn is the founder of HERSA corn coaching. And you and I met as we mentioned through Carl fix. And I just I just find it so fascinating, the specific area that you’re in developing confident leaders, and when we think about the legal profession, we think about lawyers in, you know, within the space of growing their own law firms and maybe running their own show, or just being engaged with their existing firm that they’re with, what are kind of the main struggles and challenges that you’re seeing them have every day to, to, you know, be successful?


Emily Hirsekorn  [07:48]

For I’m gonna answer that. But first, I want to identify the different kind of demographics, where I see there’s a lack of support, and people are really craving it or really need it. So number one, making transitions, a lot of people shit early on even but a couple of years in, but up through into senior leadership, they’re asking what’s next. And people crave clarity, they want to know exactly what’s next for them. And book, we have a lot of options. So that’s a major one people wanting to figure out where they’re headed next, making that transition smooth being as successful as possible. Sometimes that means starting something new. So that may mean someone’s starting a firm. And just like the work I do, doing the work, the legal work is only a piece of it, you know, business development, and marketing is everything. So that might go hand in hand with the transitions. But I really found this interesting niche with emerging leaders. So we’re talking about it, we’re looking at the Big Four model, for example, we’re talking about senior Associates, and junior partners. And the legal field is notorious for promoting folks with no leadership development support. Right? So start supervising people, we’re not going to tell you how we’re not going to help you out. Or as partners start bringing in business. I mean, I’ve got people who are like, I don’t know that these are brilliant minds. Brilliant, very talented. And they’re put in a role and given these new duties. And it’s a totally different side of work, which you are familiar with that yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [09:33]

that they just don’t know how to do when the other interesting thing is is the person that’s the Rainmaker at the firm gets asked to be the managing partner, so they have a skill in developing business. And someone then just assumes because they are more of a dominant force within the firm, they clearly would be able to handle managing 100 people and running the firm.


Emily Hirsekorn  [09:55]

Yeah, yeah. So these assumptions are made like you said, and people are given these additional do At least without support? And and look, we also have to answer your question. We also have these characteristics that are kind of across the board perfectionism, very high standards, the inner critic, which goes hand in hand with the two of those. Yeah, we’ve been beating ourselves up for years that got us through law school, right? A lot of us, that’s what helped us be successful. You saw that this keep going, okay, great. But at some point, it’s not sustainable. That’s draining to work like that. So I think early on, people can power through and then they hit a wall. So it’s stressful, and it’s not sustainable. So they get to that point where they realize, okay, I need to do things differently. I just got off the phone with someone who said, I just don’t know how I know. And I don’t know how so that’s definitely where I come in. Like I said, lots of relationships work, communications work. executive presence, that’s what we were just talking about. Great with leadership development. And then also the business development piece, how are you taking on new duties? How are you growing? And figuring out how to do it in a way that works best? For you? How does it how can it be authentic, because that’s when you’re most effective? At the end of the day,


Steve Fretzin  [11:25]

in a simple way of phrasing it for me is that, you know, people lawyers, and just about everybody has, you know, their own head trash, you know, the mess that’s between their ears. And it’s the, you know, self doubt. And it’s, you know, all the all the messaging and things that are coming into our heads every single minute of every single day. So how do people assess and deal with with anxiety and head trash and things that are keeping them down from from being the person they could be? Or should be, whether that’s a leader or whether that’s just someone with confidence?


Emily Hirsekorn  [12:04]

Okay, great question, I have four, I’m going to share four of the most common blocks to success. So four mindsets that blocks success that we see popping up over and over with this particular population. The first one limiting beliefs, lots of people have heard about this, excuse me. But the idea here is some belief about how things are supposed to be that does not align with who you are what you really want. Obviously, that’s going to hold you back. So we’re a lot of lawyers, we grew up, let’s all get a professional and make a lot of money. That’s the goal. Right? One of these traditional professions, a lot of lawyers at some point are like, I don’t think this is what they’ll be doing here. This isn’t really me. So figuring out, identifying those limiting beliefs, where what you’re doing is based on this belief about what you’re supposed to be doing, rather than what you really want to do. Of course, the shift there is figured out what you really want to do.


Steve Fretzin  [13:12]

Okay, right. And we’ll figure out what you really want to do and what you want your life to look like. And then maybe work backwards from there versus trying to work towards it. Right, because you can break, break it down into smaller chunks and pieces. If you know that you want to make you know, 300,000 a year like income. You want to take three vacations a year, you want to hang out and see your kids ballgames, whatever it might be figured that’s what you want, and then maybe work backwards.


Emily Hirsekorn  [13:40]

I love it. Yeah, figure out where you are, identify the goals, the ideal, and then chip away and start taking actions towards it. Absolutely. chip away at the step that’s getting in your way. Those blocks are just tickler internal. And then also identifying baby steps, small actions to get you there. So that’s number one. Number two, you like to assume the worst. So testicle, this catastrophic thinking, right? So, for example, I use this the other day, we have someone in leadership and their team doesn’t listen to them. So they’re like, they never listened to me. What’s the point? I’m not gonna have these meetings anymore. I’m just gonna power through Screw it. Good luck. They could do stuff on their own, obviously not supportive of your theme. So you’re feeling like crap. They’re feeling like crap. So shifting your perspective, figuring out first of all, believing that it can work, you have to believe that it can work to make it work. Number one, the number two, do it’s a self reflection. There’s our second key doing some self reflection. What can I how can I step up and take some personal responsibility here? I’m certain there is something we can all do differently to make things better are taking personal responsibility to make things better for the team that can help us address that example of when we might assume the worst.


Steve Fretzin  [15:08]

Yeah. And I think it’s hard to pull the ego out. Like, we all have egos. Right. And so if you’re leading a team and they’re not following suit, you know, we have to pull the ego out and maybe look at that being self reflect. I actually just had a meeting this morning with a group of people that I were improvisers, and we, this is my EC, my executive committee. And it was the opposite. It was I, you know, they were doing everything, like they were coming up with ideas, they were the ones making suggest, they were saying how great everything’s going. And I was sitting back, just like, oh, okay, I thought I was gonna have to come here and dictate things. And it turned out the opposite, I actually had to just sit back and listen and take all and all this great stuff, all this great feedback about how wonderful everything is and positive changes. So, you know, I think I think when you can, when you can take the ego out of it and be self reflective makes a big difference. But I that’s such a critical point. I think lawyers, in particular have strong egos and, and sometimes that gets in the way of being self reflective.


Emily Hirsekorn  [16:07]

It’s very hard, especially when we’re talking a lot these days about self promotion. I mean, a lot of people this conference, I was just at people kept asking, How do I advocate for myself self promote, without being people are using the word braggadocious? without coming off as a braggart? Great question. With almost everything I’m doing when I’m supporting folks, we’re just trying to strike a good balance. Right? So we, again, it’s identifying what’s the ideal for you defining what success looks like for you? And then doing the reflection piece? Where can we pull back? Where can we push, push forward? Yeah, definitely a push and pull. Cool.


Steve Fretzin  [16:46]

Let’s keep going. You’ve got a list, how many were what are we three.


Emily Hirsekorn  [16:51]

So the next one’s fun, we make shit up. We make it up all the time. So no matter what’s going on different situations, we’re all interpreting what’s happening. We fill in gaps with stories, right? So the to recognize this is where the egos coming into recognize, our interpretation is just one, one possible interpretation of what’s going on, I love to give the example of people at work, just giving you the side eye, someone looking at you funny, and people might say, oh my gosh, they’re gonna be or they don’t like me, or they’re not gonna give me work, which is make up these stories. And when we feel like that it’s so much unproductive energy, that we’re just sitting there with, it’s hard to get our work done, it’s hard to feel confident, asking for more from that person are collaborating. So this one, I think tends to really get in our way of collaboration, and working with other people. It does become more personal. Yeah. So we


Steve Fretzin  [17:54]

just interrupted you. Sorry. Let’s just finish your thought. And then I’ll jump in.


Emily Hirsekorn  [17:58]

Yeah. So just in terms of the shift, how do we shift that? The big question is just, what’s another perspective, I like to literally try to put yourself in another person’s shoes, if it’s a story that involves another person, almost always effective. When someone says, okay, hold on, if I was in their shoes, another interpretation here, I might be thinking, XY and Z. And I’ll just end with this. If I would say, if you’re gonna make something up, why go with the story that’s disruptive, at least some sort of story that’s going to be supportive, whatever it is you want. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [18:36]

Well, and it’s so interesting because the you know, our whole day is an improv I mean, every this conversations and improv you know, the the meeting you’re going to have later today’s and improv. And granted, we can know our stuff and know our, you know, the practice of law, Marketing, Business Development coaching pretty well. So we can, you know, be a better improper than then a newbie, right, someone that’s never functioned in our space. But we Yeah, I think we have to make sure that while we’re improving, we’re also taking in, you know what other people are saying, we’re being pot, you know, we’re staying keeping it in a positive light. And when we do come up with story I liked I love telling stories. That’s one of my favorite things to do. Especially to prove a point to share an analogy to get someone to think about something differently. Through that improv through that story. Of course, if you find success in some, then you can you can repurpose them and reuse them, which I think is super helpful.


Emily Hirsekorn  [19:28]

Yeah, beautiful. Tell a story that’s supported exactly how one that’s productive, very helpful for boosting competence, especially when we think about people developing a pitch. Getting out there, come up with the narrative where you’re the hero of the story. I love that concept. And then the last one is the biggest one, the most challenging, difficult to deal with. And it’s the inner critic, which of course we’re all familiar with. Some people call this the Gremlin. But it’s that voice. It’s telling you you’re not good enough. And again, I’ll say it again, it starts early on, obviously affects people in terms of capacity sporting a ton of entry level attorneys right now big law. And I always say it’s so strange the position, they’re in these brilliant people in a position where they don’t know what the hell they’re doing. That’s a rough combination right there. So it certainly pops up that way in terms of capacity. But mid career, people switch jobs. So they might feel like they’re starting over definitely new stuff. People get into leadership roles. Again, I don’t know how to do this. And then other capacities to maybe you’re getting on a board for the first time. Maybe you’re speaking for the first time leading a team, so lots of different ways it pops up, but lots of people are questioning themselves and doubting their abilities because of that inner critic voice.


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Steve Fretzin  [22:22]

And I think you have to be cognizant of relationships because one way out of a lot of trouble is knowing people that know more than you that can help you along the way. So I’ll give an example. I was speaking to a delightful attorney yesterday who is new in a particular practice and I was hearing, you know, she’s not really sure how to charge for her services. She’s just kind of getting into this particular area of law that she’s never been in. And she wants to build up a practice. So there’s some things I can help her with. But even before I get my claws into her if that can happen. I set her up with an estate planner that she’s in this state planning space, who is in her area that has been doing it for many years, and can really be a mentor to her and really show her the ropes on certain things. And so there’s lots of learning that can happen some that’s paid some that’s done through relationships, I got a call yesterday from a coach. And we had to reschedule because I took my son fishing, because the weather was too nice in Chicago for you. Yeah, oh my God, and he caught a beautiful pipe and wading through the river. It was beautiful, anyway, but he’s calling me because I have a successful coaching practice now for almost 20 years, he is doing it sort of as a side hustle. I know he wants to flip the switch and make it. So I’m going to spend 30 minutes with him maybe even an hour to help him out. And I’m not charging him for that you’re not charging people to talk, you know, shop? Yes, I think we really have to look outside of ourselves at the relationships that we have or that we can develop. Because there’s so much to learn. And it doesn’t always have to cost money. Sometimes it can just cost, you know, you know, somebody helping you, what can you do to help them, maybe they just feel good about helping you and they were delighted to to be a part of that growth. And part of what you’re where you’re going to end up.


Emily Hirsekorn  [24:07]

And what I think is so important about what you just said, is when that inner critic messaging pops up, some people believe it, and body it and sit there and don’t do anything. Yeah. Well, other people like these folks who are reaching out to you, they Oh, there’s a gap, a skills gap. How am I going to fill it and they go into action? So a lot of the work that I end up doing is that self advocacy piece, just asking them, What are you going to do about it? Okay, you got a problem, right? We identify problems for living, right? lawyers do. That’s fine. It’s not an issue for you, so long as you can shift into solution mode pretty quickly. So a lot of it is just shifting people to start saying how can I take action to address this instead of just sitting there in it?


Steve Fretzin  [24:58]

Yeah, so what is like you You know, the top like one or two things that you see with lawyers where you have to step up? And what solutions do you I mean, you’re giving solutions this whole time. But are there one or two that you think you want to, you know, shout from the rooftops? You know, this is what I’m seeing. And this is what I’m telling my clients on a fairly regular basis.


Emily Hirsekorn  [25:19]

Sure. So I’ve realized over the past three years, what I’m doing boils down to two things, performance and wellbeing. And I think a lot of the time folks are approaching it from one angle exclusively. And I think that that’s problematic. So I make clear, I mean, my title is executive life and leadership coach, it’s not executive coach, it’s not life coach, it’s because we are working on both performing at your best at work, and feeling your best. I am very big, with sustainable success. The whole industry of coaching is about success, right? How do you achieve success? How do you achieve your goals, I don’t talk a lot like that. I’m talking about sustainable success. So let’s figure out what you want. But let’s also set you up simultaneously, to be able to be successful for the long run. So in terms of performance, I love this idea of peak performance. There’s this chart that I saw the other day, and if we are bored, we’re not challenged, we’re not stimulated enough, our performance is down here. Right? If we are appropriately challenged, and excited about the work, peak performance, if it’s too much, which certainly happens with lawyers a lot, we’re too busy, we’re overwhelmed, our performance dips. So this is where wellbeing comes in. Even though we talk a lot about time management, I encourage people to shift away from that and start thinking about energy management. And that’s also summing up what I do. When we think about time, people were like, I gotta keep my butt in my seat. And Bill, Bill Bill, right, you can’t move, I’m sure you’ve been in that spot where you don’t move for hours. It’s crazy. It’s not good for you, though. So your performance dips. So if you take some time you go take a walk outside, get some fresh air energized by calling a friend, whatever it may be that replenishes your energy, even though it’s taking some time away from those billable hours, it’s actually going to enhance your performance. So it makes you more effective. And it also makes you more efficient. So it feels counterintuitive, but that’s so short minded, you’ve got to pull back and look at the bigger picture. So again, I really encourage people to shift from time management to energy management, think about what keeps your energy up, build those positive habits, it’s hard, exists, in large part to help people build positive habits over time, and then also really focusing on both performance and well being because they impact each other. I don’t care where you start, you’re gonna end up hitting the other one, too.


Steve Fretzin  [28:12]

Yeah, I think that’s true. So for example, if I try to do a bunch of things in the afternoon, let’s say between three and five, they’re just not going to be happening at the level that I want them to happen. I’m just I’m drained, because I’ve been on zooms all day. And I just I think that energy management piece hasn’t been talked about enough. I think we do talk ad nauseam about time management, I am a big believer in it, I follow it, I teach it. I mean, we have to some degree, what we’re not doing is talking about the energy management, we’re not talking about the mental and physical health enough. And we’re not talking about, you know, when your peak performance is going to be during the day and how to work towards that. And so I think that’s really brilliant and important that you mentioned that Emily, so any additional thoughts on that subject? Because I think that’s that’s going to be where we’re going to wrap things up before we get to Game Changing books.


Emily Hirsekorn  [29:02]

Yeah, I do want to say one more piece on that. When I started coaching lawyers, I had this concern about using the word energy. And from time to time, not often with me, because people coming to me know what I talked about, but from time to time you hear someone saying like, Oh, this woowoo stuff or like life coaching. I don’t know. Folks, it is practical. Yeah, about performing at your best, you have to be thinking about this stuff. It’s by no means out there at all. It really is practical. So I know it can be hard for some people to get their heads around that if you really think about when you’re performing your best and how to maximize your energy super, super important over time. And I overtime I also realized everyone talks energy level, everyone knows what you mean. Your energy level Yeah. So that It’s tempting to I think both you and I, we’re here to help people boost their energy level feel like they have as much energy as possible to get through their day and feel good about it at the end of the day and not


Steve Fretzin  [30:11]

drained. Yeah. And also you might have certain moods at certain levels. I’ll give you a quick example. I’ve got a teenager and, you know, it’s like five o’clock in the afternoon, and I picked him up from school, and he and I say something, he gets really grumpy and angry with me. And I go, have you eaten? Yeah, I go, have you eaten? He goes, and I haven’t eaten since lunch. I go, Yeah, we need to get you some food man. Because that’s he’s not mad at me. He’s not angry. And yet, he’s grouchy because his body is miserable. Because he hasn’t feted in five hours or six hours. And I just


Emily Hirsekorn  [30:41]

had another conversation. That’s where it turns up all of the different things that influence our energy. Yeah, but physical, I mean, physical that’s one of them what’s going on with


Steve Fretzin  [30:53]

getting so much physical fitness, you know, and I’m, I haven’t done this yet. But I started taking Pilates. And I’m gonna, I’m writing an article, maybe it’ll be it’ll actually be out, I think, by the time this show posts, but I mean, the energy that I’m getting from that class, and the energy that it’s in the way that I’m feeling is better, right? But far better than because I play a lot of sports. But that, like beats me up. It doesn’t build me up. Does that make sense? Like when I walk away from a sport or playing two hours, I feel like I’ve been beaten down, because I have I physically am drained. And with Pilates, it’s the opposite. I walk out and I feel like I’ve got more energy and more like, fitness and health and muscle and musculature and all that kind of stuff anyway. Yes. And


Emily Hirsekorn  [31:35]

though that your, your reflected? Yeah, take a minute to acknowledge that a lot of people don’t, and might just say, Oh, I checked my box, got my exercise and no background work, and not even taking the time to think, is this actually helping? What else is out there? I mean, those are the kinds of basic questions that a coach might be asking people, these are blind spots for a lot of folks, they don’t recognize they have a lot of options, lots of different ways we could do things. I have a lot of fun with my clients exploring totally different possibilities, but kudos to you, my friend for


Steve Fretzin  [32:13]

Thank you. Yeah, I’m, you know, look, and every every everything that you do, you should look at as an exercise as a learning experience as a way to understand your body your mind, and figure out what works for you. And I think that drives that energy that you’re talking about. And so I think that you’re right self reflection, not just me, but people in general, we’re not doing enough of it, to understand what’s working and what’s not, and how to make positive decisions. How we have to take tomorrow different than today.



Now, great,


Steve Fretzin  [32:44]

awesome, Emily, thank you so much. We’ve got a game changing book, when we haven’t had on the show. It’s called energy leadership. So we’re back to energy again, which is good. I’m very pro energy. Talk to us about energy leadership by Bruce Schneider.


Emily Hirsekorn  [32:58]

Sure, so the coach training program that I completed, when I got into this was AIPAC, the Institute for professional excellence and coaching, and it’s based in this energy leadership framework. So what I walk my clients through, we start off with an assessment. And it’s not a personalities ethic outside, it’s an energy. It’s so great. And this is where people start to gain that self awareness, we start the reflection process from the very beginning, saying, Oh, this is how I’m showing up here and why this is what’s going on with me, we establish that great baseline. And then energy leadership offers this framework, it’s seven different approaches that you can take, once you’re aware of them. And you have that practice where you can pause throughout your day, you can choose the approach that’s going to serve you best. So just to go back to the example that we were talking about earlier with your team, if you don’t believe in your team, lots of doubt, lots of conflict energy, low level energy, as you can imagine, it’s associated with stress, not productive. So the goal is teamwork, collaboration, all of this really high energy stuff. How are we going to get there, we’ll begin think about what thoughts are associated with higher energy levels, like you’re talking about opportunity. So if we say hold on, this isn’t a bad thing. This is actually an opportunity to shake shit up in my office. I was high, wait a minute, I was hired to turn things around. So this is what I’m going to do and coming up with ideas and generating a lot of creative idea, high level energy in this framework. So it literally gives you kind of suggested prompts, to shift your energy up to be more supportive, productive, reducing stress, less judgmental, less fear base, really, really fun stuff. And I have some clients who I mean every session, they just want to play with the framework. They’re like, okay, let’s What would this Approach look like what would this look like? So that energy leadership book is really wonderful because very corporate, again, very practical for US business minded folks. And it walks people through a small company, with the leader, learning the framework, and seeing how it can apply not only to individuals, but actually to an entire team. And I’m sure you’re thinking about this too. But nowadays, team coaching is very much where I think the future of coaching is headed. Lots of places and people are recognizing the need for institutional support. And we can only do so much with individuals, right. But a lot of times, we need to do it at a more institutional level, too.


Steve Fretzin  [35:46]

Awesome. Well, Emily, thank you so much for spending time with us today and sharing your wisdom what how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more about your, you know, leadership and coaching programs? Sure.


Emily Hirsekorn  [35:59]

So always email Emily at her support and coaching.com, you can check out my website, I have plenty of good information there, including services per supporting coaching.com H AI, r s, e k, O R M, that’s how you spell that last name. I’m on LinkedIn as well. And Instagram I play around there too. So connect with me, ask me questions. I’m here to chat, and, and also coming up with customized ways that we can offer support, I think that’s really important, because everyone needs something different.


Steve Fretzin  [36:31]

Yeah. And I think whether we’re going into a terrible recession, a moderate recession, or soft recession, stress isn’t going to get better for people. I mean, we’re dealing with a political climate, we’re dealing with just actual climate, right, we’re dealing with all these things, and the work environment that is changing all the time. So I think it’s so important now than ever, to have mentors, coaches, you know, friends relationships in place, and think what you’re doing is very noble. And I just appreciate you sharing some of that knowledge on my show.


Emily Hirsekorn  [37:01]

Thank you so much. It is it’s humbling work. It’s an honor. And I get to work with some extremely bright and talented folks who are always inspiring me as well. So I like to say I get to have fun and enjoy myself every day. It’s a little confusing how


Steve Fretzin  [37:19]

kids work. But it is. So the interesting, the interesting thing is what you and I do pretty different. However, people like oh, you work with lawyers? I’m so sorry. You know, they make that joke. And I usually in my mind, I go, you have no idea. Like, they’re the best people. They’re the the people that are going to actually hire and engage coaches like us, yes. Open minded their egos in check. Like they get like, there’s more to it than being the smartest person in the room. So you and I think have a very, you know, wonderful industry that we’re involved in and engaged in every day. And so everyone that thinks that we’re crazy, you know, they don’t, they just don’t understand that we’re, we’re actually in the right place doing the right things. So


Emily Hirsekorn  [38:01]

I have the complete exactly the same sentiment, I’ve had that same experience. And I at first I’m like, I don’t even know what to say, because I did they think I work with wonderful people who are open minded. I also like to think to this idea of the emerging leadership demographic, people who are rising now, they’re looking to do things differently. They’re looking to be more collaborative, less top down management style. So it is an also an opportunity, I think, to shift things in the industry, which is really, really cool.


Steve Fretzin  [38:35]

Yeah, very cool. Stuff that so thank you so much. And thank you everybody, for spending some time with Emily and I today, you know, I mean, I’ve got I’ve got so many things written down right now, performance and well being and self reflection and getting rid of that inner critic and you know, all the all the challenges that lawyers have today and that they are addressable, you just have to you just have to again, find the right resource and the right relationships. But as you all know, it’s all about being that lawyer soon as competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. So take into account what we’ve heard today and hopefully it helps you you know, live a little better tomorrow. So take care everybody, be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [39:18]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes