Eric Moch: The Reward of Autonomy

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Eric Moch discuss:

  • Becoming self-sufficient and creating your own future.
  • Leadership as a learned skill.
  • Culture is king.
  • Serving in leadership to develop a lasting team.

Key Takeaways:

  • Just because you have an aptitude and skill for your business does not mean you are going to be qualified to lead and mentor people.
  • As the business owner, your employees will not care about your business as much as you do unless you give them a reason to.
  • You have to provide good talent a supportive, safe, nurturing environment, because it means more than money.
  • Recognize that, unless you have had specific management training, you are going to be bad at it at first. Leadership is a skill that must be learned from square one.

“Being autonomous is its own reward, and it’s worth far more than compensation. You can’t be halfway autonomous. If you want to be autonomous, you have got to develop the ability and the interest to develop your own practice.” —  Eric Moch

Connect with Eric Moch:  



Phone: 312-205-7712


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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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lawyers, business, people, firm, leader, eric, leadership, book, money, steve, coach, day, attorney, partners, law firms, industry, service, develop, mentor, customers


Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Narrator, Jordan Ostroff, Steve Fretzin, Eric Moch


Eric Moch  [00:00]

And realize that being autonomous is its own reward. And it’s worth, in fact, far more than compensation. And as I develop this autonomy, I began to recognize that Well, you can’t be halfway autonomous. If you want to be autonomous like this, at some point, you got to develop the ability and the interest to develop your own practice.


Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:52]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day. Listen, it’s Chicago, Colin from Chicago, we’ve got finally some decent weather here. And it’s a great day to be a lawyer. It’s a great day to do business development and marketing, branding, and leadership and all the different things that you learn from this show. I’m just so happy that you’re with us. And listen, there’s opportunities every day, to continue to develop and grow and learn. And you know, this show is only a part of it. There’s books I’ve written, there’s programs I’m running. And that’s just me. There’s also you know, dozen other coaches that I’m friends with that I think are terrific and that constantly putting out content. So you’re been a student of the law, be a student of business development, marketing, branding, because that’s going to help you with your career, and becoming a leader in the legal industry and space. But introduce my buddy Eric in a moment. Want to thank our sponsors, legalese, marketing, and money, penny more about them in a few minutes. Eric was so kind to send me a quote. And it’s early. It’s not that early in the morning, but early, too early for something so deep, but I’m going to tell you what it is. While we are postponing life speeds by nothing is ours. Except time. Whoo.


Eric Moch  [02:03]

Morning, Eric. Good morning, Steve. I’m happy to be here. Thanks for the opportunity. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [02:08]

I was so happy that we connected a few months ago and got to know each other better. And that we could we could do do a show together. Talk about that quote. That’s, that’s That’s an unusual one. But I like it.


Eric Moch  [02:19]

Yeah, it’s, it’s become more resonant. For me, as I have just recently passed my 50th birthday. I’m not sure it’s a type of quote, that’s going to hit somebody between the eyes, and they’re in their 20s. But it speaks to the truth that time is the one finite resource in our life. It’s never coming back, we can make more money to replace the money we’ve spent, but we don’t get more time. And so it’s incumbent upon us to use it wisely and be bold with it, when it comes time to be bold, this life’s going to end. It’s certain, and very few of us know when or how. So if there are things you you would like to accomplish, you better get after it. That’s what I think that quote means to me.


Steve Fretzin  [03:03]

Yeah, and just just waiting, waiting is not a good strategy for anything you want to accomplish in your life or procrastination or holding off. I, we all feel that and we all you know, want to hey, I want to learn business development. You know, next year, I’m going to do something next year. And then next year turns into two and three and five, and then you’re in your 50s. And you’re you know, you don’t have a book of business, you’re getting fed work by other lawyers, and you have no control over your career. And that’s just one example that I’m dealing with every day and seeing every day. And it’s not just 50s it’s people in their 60s, lawyers in their 60s that, you know, we’re working longer. I don’t think people are retiring at 65. That’s not That’s the old model of when people retire from law. I think it’s I think it’s the needles move to is what 75


Eric Moch  [03:47]

Yeah, the guys, not just guys, but guys and women in the practice of law, you’ll see them working well into their late 60s. And I jokingly say, if I’m still doing this in my late 60s, it will be because I’ve either just bloomed into a new love for it or something’s gone terribly wrong financially.


Steve Fretzin  [04:06]

Yeah, right.


Eric Moch  [04:08]

Listen, I may not be doing this into my 60s and 70s. But I’m always going to be working. I’m always gonna be producing stuff.


Steve Fretzin  [04:14]

Yeah, me too. Me too. I’m probably going to slow down travel, do some stuff like that more. But at the end of the day, you know, I just love what I’m doing. I love how I’m helping lawyers and in the transformative exercise that we go through and, and that gives me so much energy and so much passion that I pop out of bed in the morning and I’m ready to go each day. And again, if you’re just cranking out hours and cranking out work and you’re not even happy, you don’t really enjoy it, you’re you know, you’ve got 10 bosses, and now half of them are clients, half of them are your partners, maybe not the best direction, you might want to consider making some changes. So that quote is really interesting. Eric, what’s your background not only as a lawyer, but also as a leader at your firm?


Eric Moch  [04:56]

So I’ve been a licensed attorney since 1997. I spent all but about three and a half years that time in litigation, servicing the insurance industry in the early aughts, as I guess we could call them now I took a hiatus and I went in house to an insurance company that doesn’t exist anymore. It was GE still owned insurance business. I played a couple roles there to sort of catch my breath, enjoyed it, but GE made it clear, they no longer enjoyed owning an insurance business anymore. And if you know anything about GE as a business, when GE decides it doesn’t want to own something anymore, things can go quickly. So I got back into litigation, I had spent almost the entirety that time I got back into in 2005, developing a niche by which I service the insurance industry and its customers. And the investigation and defense against organized insurance fraud, which is a scourge upon industry. It’s a billion with a B billion dollar industry in every major metropolitan area, most especially Chicago. And it’s been very rewarding to help not just insurers, but their customers, hopefully sleep a little better at night, knowing that I’m on their side, making sure that you met actors are not doing things they shouldn’t do their assets, right.


Steve Fretzin  [06:20]

And talk about your movement from, you know, worker bee attorney to business developer to leader at your firm, helper Hepler. Bloom, in Chicago office.


Eric Moch  [06:31]

Yeah, and I’m the partner in the Chicago office of boiler room. I’m the managing partner of the Insurance Services Group. When I joined my now retired mentor in 2005. I was the drone I was the cog, as many young lawyers on the game was billing time, because it associates their comp largely on their billable hours. My mentor, fortunately, I’m still in touch with whenever I need some wisdom. He had a very hands off decentralized approach. So the longer I stayed with him, the more faith he developed me, the more autonomous I got to be that I realize that being autonomous is its own reward. And it’s worth, in fact, far more than compensation. And as I develop this autonomy, I began to recognize that Well, you can’t be halfway autonomous. If you want to be autonomous like this, at some point, you’ve got to develop the ability and the interest to develop your own practice. Because if the working model for the practice group is we’re all autonomous, and we come together occasionally as necessary. You’re swimming upstream, if you suddenly try to impose upon everybody, okay, give me more work, give me more work, give me more work, I certainly can do that, but in an autonomous environment. And to be clear, not everybody thrives in that sort of hands off decentralized environment, but you have to begin to become self sufficient. My, my mentor retired, the tail end of 2020. Like many people, he saw the light, what life really means, thanks to this great pause that called the pandemic. And I then began slowly transitioning into a leadership position of our practice.


Steve Fretzin  [08:19]

Yeah, and what I mean, you’ve worked for leaders, you’re now a leader, what do you find that law firms generally or typically get wrong about choosing leaders? Because not all people should be leaders or be put in management roles? Right?


Eric Moch  [08:32]

Yeah, I think this is endemic to American business. In particular, let’s be clear, a law firm as a business. We’re not selling drywall, we’re not stamping out widgets. This. I think every business gets wrong, fundamentally, that simply because you have an aptitude and a skill at something that moves the needle for your business, you’re therefore capable of working with people in developing people. The fact that you are an efficient Biller, or you’re an excellent trial attorney or you write a great appellate brief, in no way shape or form qualifies you to lead people and mentor people and law firms. And I’ve worked on the corporate side of things. Law firms especially get this right, because law firms and I listen, I’m a lifelong lawyer, you tend to encounter some really dark negative personality types and law firms that you may not know their environments. Those folks can be really good at arcane areas of business. It doesn’t qualify them. present company included not too long ago. It doesn’t qualify us to to lead people that’s a skill you got to learn.


Steve Fretzin  [09:37]

Yeah, and it’s interesting that I that in sales, they would take the top sales guy or gal and they’d put them as a manager, they make them a sales manager you can sell so now I want you to manage the team that’s going to sell under you. Obviously everything that you do that’s been successful for you For you will drip down to the salespeople that you’re now overseeing and they don’t provide mana. He’s been training they don’t even ask Do you want this more than Here’s your pay raise. And here’s your new job. And I think lawyers right rainmakers get the same type of, of move over to Hey, you’re the top Rainmaker, you’re bringing in millions, you obviously should be, you know, running this firm, we want to make you the the managing partner. And that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s going to go well.


Eric Moch  [10:20]

It almost never does. Hey, you’re great at a therefore you must be be because reasons It messes. When I started managing this before my mentary lab, Steve, I was often very few of your guests or listeners will ever be as lit up and torn to shreds and exit interviews I had. I was terrible.


Steve Fretzin  [10:46]

I don’t mean to laugh, but it’s just I appreciate the honesty. We’ve all been there. I


Eric Moch  [10:51]

drove. I drove away, talk to your talent. I gave I gave really good young attorneys no choice but to lead because I resented being forced to do it. At first, I did not endeavor to make myself better. And I assumed falsely that because I was a good attorney, I would be great. At leading, I was terrible. And at some point, I finally realized maybe it was after the young team, terrible exit interview. Look. Nobody else is coming through that door to help leaders, right. It’s not me, I need to learn the skill set. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [11:22]

And again, I also think Leadership isn’t for everyone. And I feel like I’m a good leader. What I do in my business for the industry, and for the lawyers that I work with, I feel like I’m a good leader as it relates to being a good coach for my clients, like we have a partnership that is unbelievable. But I can also tell you that I had a point where I was running three or four businesses, three offices, and I had 13 employees. And I had no time to manage and I really didn’t enjoy. The Babysitting is kind of what I call that babysitting all of these people that I wanted to be autonomous but weren’t. They weren’t doing their jobs. And I had to step in and try to and I hated that that I had. I just wanted everyone to work as hard as I work and do what I do, you know? And that’s just not necessarily what you’re dealing with when you’re managing.


Eric Moch  [12:13]

Yeah, why can’t Hey, I figured this out. Why can’t Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [12:17]

And then are they motivated? Like, I’m motivated, don’t they? Well, I was the business owner. Of course, I’m more motivated than they were motivated. They were getting a paycheck in commission. Okay. But they all had different motivations for working hard. I just didn’t know what they were. And I don’t think I asked


Eric Moch  [12:32]

you. Look, if you’re a partner, like if you own your business as you do, or your partner like I am, you’re the business owner, why would you assume your employees care as much as you do? That’s not the model. It’s never gonna be the model. And it’s a flawed assumption. Well, they must care as much as that well, they don’t. They’re just here until you show them this is a place they need to call home. They’re just here to build their their chops and, and get a line on the resume. So you mentioned


Steve Fretzin  [13:00]

Yeah, I mean, but there are there are a lot of mistakes that are being made in recruitment, hiring, or lack of your so there’s that. And then there’s a lack of onboarding, there’s a lack of how we manage people, coach people, encourage people, get them bought into the firm, get them bought into the mission. Most firms don’t even have a mission, right. They’re just like, this is a place you work and you practice law. And I think that’s changed with the pandemic. I think that the reason that the great resignation is upon us to some degree, is because people are looking for more than a job. And I think you’re identifying that and what you’ve already said, but what are the things that you’re seeing that are missteps that continue to happen, happen to you, but also you see happening across the board in the legal space?


Eric Moch  [13:50]

I think people aren’t yet fully aware that culture is king now. And look, I’m Gen X as you are. We are the last generation that effectively had to make our own way. You know, we were the kids that were kicked out on summer vacation at atm, go play on the 150 degree metal slide and come back in or like that’s so inherent in our upbringing that you got to go get it yourself? Well, that’s not the culture now. And because I’m Gen X, I struggled with that. And I still have colleagues, Gen X colleagues and older colleagues who struggle with that, but it’s, it’s real culture is king now. It’s not a fad. And you have to provide good talent, a supportive, safe, nurturing environment, because it means more than money. You know, you can be good at your job. I’m really good at what I do now. And I know that right now there are busloads of lawyers who aren’t as experienced as I am on it’s qualified haven’t done as much who are getting paid more than me and that’s okay. You got to let the income go. I think I had a great culture word. That’s what’s preeminent right now and I people are still Especially while business are slow to recognize that


Jordan Ostroff  [15:02]

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Steve Fretzin  [15:25]

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Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [15:28]

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Steve Fretzin  [15:42]

I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?


Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [15:48]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:02]

Very cool. Thanks. You know, you can get paid more now as an attorney than ever before, but at what cost? And I don’t think lawyers realize the cost until they go to that other firm that they that they’re getting paid a lot more. And then they realize their weekends aren’t there, their evenings aren’t theirs. They’re working with attorneys they don’t care for the work isn’t interesting. Like Alright, yeah, great, good job. You’re making 100 grand more than you used to, but you’re miserable every day. So how long are you gonna do that? Right? And how’s that money going to work out? You know, now you’re just at a higher tax rate. You know, where’s that money gonna go? Right? I mean, I just I just don’t see it. I think that there’s other ways to make great money. I’d rather be at a great culture. And this is just me being me about the stuff I do. But I’d rather be at a better culture and build business, do business development, build my own client base, get to that million dollar plus mark, of originations make the same money I’m going to make as a, you know, as a cog in a wheel over at this other firm, just doing everyone else’s work and not having any control over my career? Yeah, I’ll make more money. But there’s other ways to make more money.


Eric Moch  [17:08]

Yeah, there’s there’s a saying, you know, I’ve never seen a Brinks truck at funeral. You’re not taking it with you. And it kills me to know that in the mind not to recent past, I contributed to an environment which young associates effectively didn’t have a weekend, or they had a one day weekend, because what happened on Sunday morning, it’s sort of dreading the week ahead. I want my lawyers to know that when they come to work for us, they get a two day week. Yeah. Nice. So let’s talk


Steve Fretzin  [17:35]

about successful leadership within a firm you obviously have, you know, been very open about mistakes you’ve made. What have you learned? And what are you seeing that, that you’re doing that that other people listening might say, Wow, that’s really something my firm needs to do, or that’s something I’m glad my firm is doing. And, Eric, you’re going to hopefully give us a couple of thoughts on that. Yeah, I


Eric Moch  [17:55]

think that it has to start with a fundamental shift in your mindset. You have to approach leadership, regardless of the business you’re in as an act of service. And I, the switch for me happened when I realized, Oh, my God, I work for them now. The freeware,


Steve Fretzin  [18:13]

you work for your attorneys now? Yeah, they don’t work for you. You work for them.


Eric Moch  [18:17]

I work for them. Nice. I the first the the one out first year attorney who knows nothing. Who in years past you might view as an inconvenience that you had to coach up when you had no, no, I worked for him. Now I work for her now. I’m leading as an act of service. And if I don’t see it that way, I’m not going to develop a lasting team. And if I don’t develop a lasting team, that I can show my customers, then all the business development shops in the world aren’t going to matter. Because my arms are only so


Steve Fretzin  [18:50]

big. Yeah, you can’t handle you can’t handle what you’re what you have in there for. It’s all it’s all falls apart. It’s a house of cards.


Eric Moch  [18:58]

Yeah, you’ve got to provide younger attorneys and even your colleagues. You got to be the one that serves, hey, let me be of service. What do you need to thrive? Because if you thrive, I’m gonna do more of what you need less than one of the questions I ask in interviews now is, hey, I know you’re looking for a reason. I’m not looking for you to badmouth your current employer. But if you joined us, what can we give you that you’re not getting now that would help you thrive? More so than you are now? What can we offer you? And it’s and I didn’t always have that mindset. I think whether you are in a law business, or you’re selling widgets, or you’re selling drywall, you’ve got to approach leadership as an active service. You work for them.


Steve Fretzin  [19:41]

Yeah. Well, that’s really important and I don’t think that most managing partners office managing partners or just partners that that have underlings right, that they feed work to are thinking about it that way, and it’s it’s a total like, flip around on, you know, these are my this is my team and they work for me And you’re saying the opposite. And I think that’s really encouraging to hear that you learn that as a leader, and that you’re that you’re actively participating at that level, because that’s really what team is all about, and how you keep people in that culture feeling, you know, feeling really happy in their jobs, which is, which is at a premium right now. Yeah.


Eric Moch  [20:20]

And if you’re in a larger firm, like I am, I know, I’ve listened to a number of your podcasts, I know that you’ve had a number of solo, folks, if you’re in a larger firm like nine, and you understand the necessity of approaching leadership, it’s incumbent upon you to get with your firm leadership and say, Look, I got an opportunity to develop a great team, they’re gonna thrive, but I need I need some breaks, I need to Bill 150 to 200 hours viewer per year, I need you to understand what he’s taking on some non billable tasks. And you have to be okay with that. You have to advocate for yourself,


Steve Fretzin  [20:52]

you got to make space for it. So, you know, one of the biggest problems that I think I’ve seen in management, you know, you know, no, you know, I work with a lot of managing partners in my roundtables, and they’re wearing too many hats. You can’t be a leader, and Bill 2000 hours plus and build business go out and Rainmaker and B in charge of branding and marketing for the mean, there’s only so many hats that you can wear. And in without the time to do those the few well, then it ends up at the expense of doing most of them badly.


Eric Moch  [21:25]

Yeah, you can’t do it well, for long. I mean, there’s a reason that lawyers have such high incidence of horrible things like addiction and divorce. Yeah, you can do that until you can. Right, right. So


Steve Fretzin  [21:38]

I think understanding that I’m serving as a leader serving my team versus them serving me is a great a great takeaway. And Ted, what’s another element of ideas for leadership within a firm?


Eric Moch  [21:52]

Sure, recognize, and this is hard for lawyers, we’re very egotistical creatures. Recognize that unless you have had explicit management training, or you have had leadership experience in some other field around, you’re going to be bad. You’re going to alienate people, you’re going to drive away bright young talent, you’re going to be bad because leadership is a skill set. And you have to start from square one, you have to humble yourself to the slow process of educating yourself through experience through trial there. And and you don’t get to be a great leader from the word go simply because you build 2500 hours a year and you got 2 million in business and you haven’t lost a jury trial for you. None of that matters, you’re going to be bad and find something you like about that. Do you educate yourself one way, if you approach your firm as you showed, and say, Hey, I need some supports, I need some guidance. And that’s not forthcoming. Guess what the entirety of the world’s knowledge on how to lead is in your palm of your hand right now, if you want to look for it. I can’t tell you how many podcasts and books and YouTube videos and seminars, I turned to to develop this, I talked to folks like you, I still have a great relationship with my former mentor. I never not educated myself on how to get better. It’s


Steve Fretzin  [23:13]

it’s it’s like most things in life. It’s It’s a never ending education. We always have to keep learning and growing is a way of moving forward and advancing. And I think the day that we stop and say we know everything’s probably a bad day. That’s just not that’s just not how life is, you know, even golf pros that shoot, you know, under par, that are on the tour, constantly getting feedback from their caddy constantly getting feedback from coaches, and people helping them with their physical side and the mental side. It just doesn’t stop. And I think that’s really a big takeaway you’re from from this, this chat. Anything else you’d like to share? Maybe anything that’s changed based on the pandemic in the great resignation as it relates to leadership that we haven’t talked about yet? Yeah, I think that the


Eric Moch  [23:59]

the era of the top down dictatorial leadership style, especially in the practice of law, has gone the way of the dodo bird in the in the firms and organizations that recognize that sooner than later are going to be the ones that thrive and position themselves to really grow generations. In a key part of that is recognizing that in any practice group, it’s a collaboration. And that includes the small senior level partner with the newest attorney, you gotta collaborate. You can’t assume you know what you folks need, ask, Hey, how am I doing? What do you need more? I want are you happy here? You have right to be happy. I told lawyers. Look, I’m not sure this is the right environment for you. And it’s not because you’re a bad lawyer. It’s very likely because I’m not good at this yet. But do you have a right to be happy? What do you need? Because I don’t know if I can provide it right now. So I think the big takeaway is that is across every industry but especially Well, if you think you’re going to willpower, and passive aggressive dictator your way to longevity, I’m sorry to tell you it’s probably not. Yeah, and I think,


Steve Fretzin  [25:13]

you know, this is, again, why the peer advisory groups that I run are so important, because when you take, for example, eight to 10, managing partners and leaders, and you put them in a, a monthly forum, and we have these discussions on culture comp, growth, what to do with problem children within our firm, and the great resignation, the marketing, branding, I mean, all these topics are discussed, and they’re giving each other ideas, they’re not on an island. And that’s so important. Whether you have a mentor, a coach, or a group like this of people that you can lean on that have experienced is different than yourself. And they work as a team, it’s, it’s, for me, it’s one of the most refreshing and, you know, positive things I’ve ever done in my career. And I’m not having to coach and train like I normally do, I can sometimes just sit back and let it happen. And let’s just listen. And I’m blown away by the collaboration that they share and their interest in helping each other be better leaders and better managers, etc. So, you know, yeah, a little bit of a plug there for my peer advisory roundtables. But I think the point of it is that we need to have people around us that know more than us know, different things than us as a way to continue that growth.


Eric Moch  [26:25]

I think you’re doing valuable service to the industry by putting those together. Because let’s be clear lawyers, especially as we get older and career, we’re less reticent to ask for help. So the service you’re providing, you know, the, obviously they’re your customers, it’s how you pay the mortgage, but the service you’re providing industry by pulling together these these peer mentorship groups, hey, I can only Aspire One day I might be successful enough to let you sit.


Steve Fretzin  [26:52]

Well, listen, everybody, it’s Eric Mach, talking a little bit about leadership here and giving some great ideas and takeaways. What’s your game changing book? Because it’s so because it’s one that’s not known to most people? It’s not a Daniel Pink, it’s not a, you know, you know, a typical, a typical, like, what’s in the hip now type of book? Surely, whatever. Because I had a big smile on my face when I saw that you you submitted that?


Eric Moch  [27:15]

Yeah, it’s a book and I’m sure it’s in Princeville. It’s called selling the invisible and a turn


Steve Fretzin  [27:21]

around selling the invisible. That’s hairy back with everybody hairy back


Eric Moch  [27:25]

when I was first published in the 80s. And it speaks to the reality that unless you’re selling T shirts or widgets for a living, and frankly, even if you’re selling T shirts, what you’re really selling is service, it’s invisible. But your customers will know when it’s not there. So it’s one of the most impactful books I’ve ever read, especially when we’re practicing law because we are providing a service. How do you dial it in and make sure your customers constantly receive the service they they demand and deserve? It’s a wonderful book to be in, get your hands on it. You’ll be better for reading. Yeah, well, you’re


Steve Fretzin  [28:02]

a terrific interview. And I appreciate all of your advice and wisdom if people want to get in touch with you because they’re interested in helper bloom as a as a possible place for them to go to or just to network with you. What’s the best way to reach you?


Eric Moch  [28:15]

Emails? Great. It’s Eric er, I see dot MOC. Moc H adds one word here.


Jordan Ostroff  [28:21]



Eric Moch  [28:22]

the room H EPLERBROM. You can also free up feel free to call me at 312-205-7712. I’m on LinkedIn, I can’t recite verbatim my URL because I don’t have much of room in my head. But if you look for me on LinkedIn, I’m always looking to connect with the network with books there i i advertise and promote the many seminars and I like to speak it. So hopefully we can shake hands in the future. If you’re out there listening and like to learn more about practice. I’d love to get to know you.


Steve Fretzin  [28:58]

Awesome, man. And I’m pretty sure I screwed up the name of your firm at least twice during this interview and just putting it out there. It’s Hepler broom, hat blurs not helper broom, helper bloom or any of those. So just so everyone knows. No one’s perfect. Team my team a teenager will tell will back me up on that statement. By the way.


Eric Moch  [29:20]

I got to remember a junk marketer calls and some of them call and mess up my last name. I would know that they weren’t


Steve Fretzin  [29:28]

Yeah, well my name is Steph they go Is this Mr. Britt fried sin and I’d be like the telemarketer for a marketer. Yeah. Now now I don’t even do that. Now. You just wait for that pause. There’s like that pause that happens when you pick up the phone and there’s a pausing all boy and you hang up right away. But anyway, good stuff, Eric. Well, thanks so much for being my guest. And again, I’m just I’m thrilled that we got to meet not always five, six months ago or something like that, and that we were able to reconnect and get you on the show. Hey, everybody stopped by Well, before I get into that, thank you again. Oh,


Eric Moch  [30:02]

thank you. Appreciate the opportunity to come. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [30:05]

absolutely. Excellent. Hey, everybody, again, another great opportunity to learn from, from the show. And from Eric in particular, I think the conversation was incredibly helpful, especially if you’re in an environment that isn’t quite what Eric was describing, or was describing as it relates to bad stuff. And, and then of course, you know, realizing that maybe there’s a different a different culture that you’re that you’d like to go to. And it isn’t all about the money. I think money’s great. But if you’re just working for the money that you’re going to find that gets old pretty quick. We want to we want to enjoy our lives, our careers. That’s what this show is all about. So hopefully you’re getting some good takeaways to be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized, and of course a skilled Rainmaker. Take everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [30:55]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notice