Gary Johnson: The Dueling Banjos of Profitable Marketing Strategies

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Gary Johnson discuss:

  • A business coach for accountability and encouragement.
  • Deliverables are more than a selling point.
  • Networking in the transition post-COVID.
  • The Gang of Five.

Key Takeaways:

  • Continually work on your marketing – write down or communicate the idea as soon as you get it, don’t hold on it and hope to remember it later.
  • Strategy without execution is nothing.
  • Before you meet someone, do your research. Don’t show up knowing nothing about your prospective networking partner.
  • The person who brings in the business has the power, not the greatest employee.

“You have to follow up in order to continue to build a good relationship with people – that’s what most attorneys should be doing, building a good relationship.” —  Gary Johnson

Connect with Gary Johnson:  




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



people, work, attorneys, lawyer, coaching, business, clients, strategies, meeting, networking, person, shooting, accountability, marketing, development, talk, alzheimer, firm, linkedin, deliverables


Gary Johnson, Narrator, Steve Fretzin


Gary Johnson  [00:00]

A lot of attorneys are like, You know what, I don’t care if they’re comfortable or not, we’re meeting in person, you know, okay, that’s not going to help you out with your business development. Let me tell you right now, that’s not going to help you out with that person liking you or trusting. You do have to start out with being compassionate, because everybody has different situations.


Narrator  [00:22]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:45]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer, I hope you’re having a lovely day. I am absolutely destroyed. I did three presentations this morning, before one o’clock and my brains a little scrambled. So you’re gonna have to deal with that. And one of the ways that I can unscramble my brain better now than ever is introducing my guest today. This guy and I just ham it up as often as we can. And we love it. This is Gary Johnson. He’s the president of j two marketing consultancy. And he’s also the first second guest I’ve had. Now if that made sense, the first second guests, it’s better than the two timer. It’s better than the two timer that’s the word or maybe four. But now we’re friends, then now you’re the first second guest. Anyway, Gary to be a solid and give a little background on yourself and what you do and even some of the charitable work you do, because that’s impressive. Let us know. Yeah.


Gary Johnson  [01:33]

Yeah. So thank you, Steve, for allowing me to be your first timer. Now I love our friendship. You know, what I do is I help attorneys to grow their book of business very similar to you. I mean, we do so many of the similar things and our processes, and our philosophies are so much in alignment, that it just enables us to have these great conversations together. And it’s teaching attorneys what to actually do to actually build their business, because there’s a lot of things that people can do in marketing, there’s a ton of things. And it’s what is right for that individual and getting focused in on what’s their strength, as well as their target market. And putting those two things together, excels them. And one of the things I love when a client tells me, I don’t know why I’m paying you so much money, because this stuff is so easy. Just go yeah, why don’t you go back to not making him doing it really challenging. Instead of doing it easy and making a ton of money.


Steve Fretzin  [02:34]

We don’t have to explain brain surgery or rocket sign tree chocolate. I think that doesn’t always mean it’s easy to execute. And it doesn’t mean that it comes naturally. But your point is well taken that. Yeah, I get that on a regular basis, lawyers will say, Well, I guess I just should have known that. Or I guess I should have just known to do that. But maybe it’s common sense. Now that you’re hearing it from me, right? I’m hearing Exactly. But generally speaking, you know, because this isn’t taught in law school, because this isn’t taught in most law firms, even law firms that have big staffs of business development people, they’re not in the weeds, the way we are teaching lawyers, all the ins and outs of how to actually maneuver through and get meetings and closed meetings and keep clients and they just don’t have the capacity, which is why people I think, go outside of the firm to try to find us.


Gary Johnson  [03:19]

Yeah, and you know, that goes into the coaching aspect is holding our clients accountable. Because when you have certain things that are difficult to do, you need that encouragement, you need that accountability partner that’s going, Steve, you got to do this, you got to do this, you got to do this. I mean, I have a coach myself, that I have used for years, and he sees the blind spots, he sees those different things. And the same thing that we do for our clients is to point those out, but then also to encourage them and say you can do it, and then watch them do it and give them those techniques so that they can repeat it again and again. And the accountability, I think is an important element in all the things that we do in our lives. And you know, you talked about charity, you know, I did a charity fundraiser back in February for the Alzheimer’s Association and the accountability was, if they donated a certain amount, certain things I had to do, like shave my head or get shot by paintball gun. Those kinds of things go hand in hand with what we do on a regular basis with the accountability. Because book if I didn’t have to do anything, just get money. I don’t think we would have raised as much money as we did. And so


Steve Fretzin  [04:32]

it’s a bit out of curiosity, what’s the going rate to shoot you with a paintball gun because I have some extra money sitting in my bank right now. $500 But dude, I just gotta get out to California. I will shoot you a couple times.


Gary Johnson  [04:43]

I have to actually share with you some of the videos that we took. And we just the amount of pleasure on these people’s faces shooting me was disturbing.


Steve Fretzin  [04:54]

Was I right the speed that you run before you get shot and the speed you run after You get hit once a different speed. Was that an accurate description I gave you?


Gary Johnson  [05:03]

That is an accurate one. Here’s the other thing is it was? Have you ever gone to an amusement park where they have the gun shooting gallery? And they had a duck? You hit it and it went back? Yeah, it was me. That was you know, I was 20 feet away from them. And all I was doing was running back and 20 feet, it should be like 200 feet. No, it was 20. You don’t think so? They were like, and they were automatic weapons. So it was like, no, no. And there were three people shooting at one time. They put it this way, we went through over 500 arounds. Wow. And so I’ve got quite a few I still do I have quite a few welts on my body. But you know what, it’s for the Alzheimer’s Association, which is near and dear to my heart. So it was like, This is good because the people that have Alzheimer’s are getting hit every day, it doesn’t go away. My stuff, that chick goes away after a while. So it’s not.


Steve Fretzin  [06:01]

In theory, there’s a lot of people that I know are not better than me, but you’re better than me, I would never do that I would never put myself literally on the line to get popped for much do you have to be like a tremendous amount of money and PSN have to go into my bank account. That’s the difference between your love of people and helping people in mine. I’ve got I love people, and I love helping people. But I think it’s just a little less than you. I’m just putting it out there. So listen, I think there’s two things I want to accomplish in this broadcast. Number one, I do want to talk a little bit about our deliverables not as a selling point, but just as a way for people to understand you talked about our similarities. I’d also like to talk about our differences. Because I think while our philosophies are the same in how we keep positive and accountability and what we’re working with our clients on, the way we deliver is a little different. So I want to talk about that for just a minute or two. And then I want to transition to what we call Dueling Banjos, where you and I can talk about business development, like what are kind of the top three or four main challenges that we’re seeing lately with our lawyers. And then what are the things that we’re sort of working with them on day in and day out to help them overcome them and grow their book and maybe live better lives and stuff like that? Love it from a deliverable? You know, I’ll give you an example. Like, I don’t work with law firms. I’m only working with individual attorneys, do you work with law firms and work with individual attorneys? Alright, so just individual attorney. So that’s where we’re the same? What are you putting together like, without getting into a lot of details, but what’s like the package like if I’m an attorney, and I say, Hey, Gary, I want to coach I heard good things about you and that you like get hit by paint ball. Like how do I hire you like, what’s your deliverable? How many deliverables Do you have? And like, is that all customized? Like what are you doing?


Gary Johnson  [07:40]

It is all customized, but how I break it down into three easy parts, foundation, strategy, accountability, those are the three. So foundation is branding and messaging. So it’s personal branding, and messaging. Because without a foundation, it’s like when you build a house, you don’t have a strong foundation, it’s gonna go yep, crumble. So gotta have a strong foundation. That’s where we start. So as soon as you have your messaging and your branding solid, then we start dealing with strategies, strategies can be networking, social media, speaking, writing, you know, so on and so forth. So those are the strategies, and then it’s the accountability to actually do the strategies, because strategy, you know, without execution is nothing. I mean, it’s a piece of paper, you know, you could read a book that books,


Steve Fretzin  [08:30]

the dream, and anything else gets like a dream or a nice thought.


Gary Johnson  [08:33]

Exactly. And I heard hope is not a strategy help. Is that a


Steve Fretzin  [08:37]

strategy? And then what’s your deliverable? Like? Is it your meeting with them one on one, your meeting how often like, I know, that’s all customizable, too. But is it primarily the deal?


Gary Johnson  [08:46]

I meet with almost every single one of my clients once a week,


Steve Fretzin  [08:50]

okay, so they’re seeing every week. The other aspect of it is,


Gary Johnson  [08:54]

I tell them, I’m their virtual chief marketing officer, and they can call me 24/7. That’s nice. I’m accessible to them. Now, if they call me at two o’clock in the morning, I am answering the phone, but I’ll get back to them. But the key thing is, I always want them to think of things and go, I need to call Gary, I got this idea. I got to call Gary instead of let’s wait until we meet because they forget about it. And so it’s just the continually working on their marketing on a regular basis.


Steve Fretzin  [09:22]

And you’re using the term marketing, is that different than business development? Or is that the same as business development? So we’re just using a general word of marketing as an overarching business development, marketing, all branding all in one.


Gary Johnson  [09:34]

That’s it? Yeah. Okay.


Steve Fretzin  [09:35]

Got it. All right now, but you okay. Yeah. What about me? So


Gary Johnson  [09:39]

what are your deliverables for your clients? Well,


Steve Fretzin  [09:42]

interestingly enough, I really have I have four deliverables in two different packages. So one is, it’s a combination always is always for me of coaching and training. So while people need individual coaching, because they need help putting together that plan, they need help with this strategies and all that. What I found was that I was spending all my coaching time on there where should be on them personally and on their personal stuff, giving them lessons and training and skills building. And I said, this isn’t working, I need to put groups of lawyers together where I can go through modules and go through content, to teach them networking to teach them development of strategic partners, branding, and most importantly, what I call sales, free selling, or teaching them how to actually walk a buyer through a buying decision. So it’s really everything they need to know to be successful. But it’s done through being in a class once a week or once every other week, again, so I’ve got two different classes that I teach. And again, depending on how much someone needs, so it’s all about right evaluation and identifying if they have the needs, they go in one program if they have little less needs. Like for example, let’s say it’s somebody like an estate planner that is closing 19 out of 20 deals. Well, I don’t know if that estate planning unless I find out their rates are so low that they’re giving it away, right or just whatever, that they may not need to learn how to be a better sales Free seller or to work to walk a buyer through buying process because they’re closing 19 out of 20. I mean, what am I going to make it 19 and a half or right? I mean, how much better could they be at that point. So they may not need to go through my full program. So I have sort of a backup program for people that need more prospecting, you know, like marketing prospecting, how to get in front of it and get at bats. So that’s one thing. Then the other thing is those Rainmaker and business developer roundtables. So this is mainly for people that have either been through my program, and now they just want to sustain after working with me, by getting together with other attorneys in different practice areas, and holding each other accountable, sharing ideas, talking about their goals, talking, how are they doing in q2 to get to here? How are you doing to get to your numbers, and then I’ve got one that’s under a million in originations in one group, that’s few groups that are under a million and few groups that are above a million, as high as 8 million. And, you know, they all have similar challenges. And so it’s great to see them work together share ideas, you know, here’s how you better delegate, or here’s how you, you know, use LinkedIn more effectively, or this is what I just tried to work for me, and they’re sharing these ideas. It’s really amazing to watch the collaboration as it unfolds right in front of me. And I don’t have to really coach much, because, you know, they’re just like coaching each other. Yeah, but you’re


Gary Johnson  [12:19]

moderating it, right? And they’re moving things around and making sure that people are on point. So that’s a huge skill to have. No, I


Steve Fretzin  [12:27]

mean, right. And I think I have that pretty well down in the sense that I am structured, I know how to move things forward. If somebody’s getting a little long winded, I know how to cut them off without being a jerk. And also have some fun, right? Like, we’re having fun. I like having fun. And while it’s serious stuff that we’re talking about, can we have some laughs? Can we, you know, goof around a little bit? Yeah, I think that’s a part of what makes you know, who else is going to sit on a 90 minute, you know, Zoom call with me if we’re not keeping it engaging, and fun and entertaining, and also getting good value, like, no lawyer wants to do that. So I really have to step up and make sure. I mean, one of my classes this week, they absolutely loved it, is I actually broke out 12 people in a class and I broke them up into two groups, had them choose a team name, and we played what I call Fretzin Jeopardy, and it’s not Jeopardy about me personally, it’s Jeopardy about all the stuff that they’ve learned over the last, you know, six to 12 weeks. I want to hit them, testing them, seeing their competitive juices flowing, but also learning from each other. Because while some people have been in my program for six months, some others just started. So the ones that just started are just kind of sitting back and kind of scrolling notes and listening and taking it in. And maybe they come up with an answer. But mostly it’s the older people that have been with me a while they kind of know the stuff and they become the teacher and I love that like when some of this stuff right, then you know, you’ve got them.


Gary Johnson  [13:44]

Yep. And I love that aspect. Because it also I’m sure brings those new people they connect with the older guys. And I say guys, just people, the other attorneys, but they are connecting with them because you’re in this competitive arena. You know, okay, I got to try and step up my game, I have to contribute to this. And then when they do when it’s right, they go, Oh, my God, I actually know this stuff like that. I’m not really like I am, but I’m not. And then that just gets them to go up. And then they contribute more, that gets to the collaboration that we were talking about. Because if you get everybody collaborate, that’s a beautiful thing. That’s nirvana.


Steve Fretzin  [14:23]

Yeah. So I love the idea of coaching. I mean, that’s to your point earlier is like a foundational thing, you have to have the one on one, the accountability, the coaching, working with everybody is different. Everybody’s got this different practice area, different position in the firm, different book, different targets. But then the skills translate very well from a personal injury to an estate planner to a litigator at a big firm to IP, and they all are learning the same skills because they just have to customize them for themselves and they have to customize it for their practice area. But I work with them on that but setting an agenda doesn’t you know, is a part of a process. It doesn’t change that much. If you’re going to meet a GC or if you’re going to meet a mom and pop for an estate plan or husband boyfriend, stapling mon pie. Sounds like I’m talking to Mom, mom, pot kettle, and maybe that’s an elder law, I guess, elder law. Anyway, so let me let’s transition Gary to give me an example of one of the main challenges that you’re seeing right now, with one of your clients. What do you see is like maybe an ongoing issue that the lawyers you’re working with are having? And then what are you working with them on to help resolve it?


Gary Johnson  [15:27]

It’s a great question. I mean, one of the biggest things is networking. Yeah. And do we network in person? Or do we not? And, you know, you and I are both group leaders of groups. Improvisers. Sure, and I’m finding, you know, some people are comfortable about in person, some people are not, but it’s helping them navigate through that, because a lot of attorneys are like, you know, what, I don’t care if they’re comfortable or not, or meeting in person, you know, okay, that’s not going to help you out with your business development. Let me tell you right now, that’s not going to help you out with that person liking you or trusting, you do have to start out with being compassionate, because everybody has different situations. And at the same time, what do you do and what don’t do because it’s a different landscape now, and helping them navigate through that, and being able to pick up on certain cues that other people are saying when you’re in person, because sometimes we forget about it, and getting them back on the bicycle. That’s okay. I’m in personnel, what do I need to do? What’s appropriate now? And also what’s not appropriate right now, too, because you can hurt yourself in a big, big way. But it’s just fine tuning those old skills that we had before, that they may have not done these things before? So I think that’s one of my biggest ones.


Steve Fretzin  [16:49]

Okay. Yeah. And I would say that, you know, similar people are transitioning to face to face meetings, lunches, coffees, dinners, ballgames, golf, etc. Right. And I think you’re right, it’s got to be permission based. It’s got to be something where, you know, what would you prefer, make it all about the other person. And if their game then great. And then I would say the other thing that’s missing is having a process for networking. I think most people go out, and they just meet, and the meeting happens, and they make a friend. And it sounds like all is good. And then it usually ends this way. And you tell me if you heard this before, this was so great, Gary, let’s keep in touch. And we’ll keep our eyes open for each other, that this was really wonderful. Take care, we’ll talk to you soon. Bye. And that’s the meeting. All right, most every time almost every time. And while that may work out for some people, us humans may need to have a little more process and getting results with the time that we’re investing. Because I would say I can’t remember a time when my clients have been busier. So I know that there’s some people, you know, struggling and there’s people that are hurting, for work and all that. Not the people I’m working with the people I’m working with, even if they don’t have enough work, I’m giving them things to do, right. But most of the people are getting crushed on hours. They don’t know how to delegate, there’s all kinds of things going on. So to spend a lot of time networking and not get any kind of real result out of it is a concern.


Gary Johnson  [18:06]

Absolutely. Right. I totally agree with and I think probably 95% of attorneys out there do not have any process they quote unquote, wing it. Yeah. I mean, you and I, we see that all the time. One of the most insulting questions that you can ask somebody when you’re out to lunch with them was so see, what do you do for a living? Yeah, I’m a truck driver. Oh, you couldn’t have spent five minutes figuring out what the hell I do. Yeah, I mean, really, five minutes.


Steve Fretzin  [18:33]

And why are we meeting? Who are you? Yeah,


Gary Johnson  [18:35]

exactly. Like, and I’m telling you, it is really insulting. And at the same time when you do the research beforehand, and you look for those connection points. Like for instance, when you and I first met the research that I did beforehand with you was Chicago, bulls suck. That was my main thing. That’s my connection. I’m like, you know, being a Laker fan and seeing 23 behind you, you know, you and I had that conversation. I mean, the first time we came on, I was reading Damn you, but that was loaded. I mean, I loaded that up in my brain beforehand. I was gonna hit you with that. For two reasons. One, I wanted to connect with you. And two, I wanted to see if you got any sense of humor. If you’re like, No Jordans, the best screw you were dumb. I’m like, All right. We’re not a good connection. Yeah, this guy


Steve Fretzin  [19:23]

can’t take it.


Gary Johnson  [19:24]

Exactly. He has no sense of humor. Yeah, I need people that have sense of humor, because I’m so screwed up.


Steve Fretzin  [19:30]

So didn’t everybody tell you that I’m a dainty flower? You are super played with super snowflake with super thin skin. I work with lawyers all day just like you so if our skin isn’t a little thicker, we got a bigger price right there. Yeah,


Gary Johnson  [19:43]

huge problem, but processes right on.


Steve Fretzin  [19:47]

So the idea that you’re talking about is Alright, so before you meet with someone, do your research, know what to talk to them about to get the motor started. And when you’re in the actual networking meeting, live or zoom, you know, come With a process whether you steal it from someone else, or you make it up on your own, think about it, how are you going to share the talk time, so someone doesn’t dominate? How are you going to come up and figure out how you’re going to connect this person, because networking is all about giving and receiving and having a good reciprocation, can’t just be one sided, because someone’s going to feel slighted when that happens. So we really need to work on that you can do that and just build karma on and get taken into the air with karma. I did that. And it didn’t give me any business. But I got lots of karma, having some structure to the meeting, and then making sure that you have a next step at the end, right. I mean, that’s kind of what we’re talking about. It’s really,


Gary Johnson  [20:33]

and I’m so glad that you had addressed that is because it’s probably the biggest fall down that people have is they have no follow up, zero, like zero unless they see somebody, oh, hey, what’s up, like, at a meeting or at an event or whatever. And it’s like, really, unless the only time I say you shouldn’t follow up. So you don’t like the person if you cannot add any value to them. And it’s like, alright, this is a half hour, I gotta go, Let’s get off that I think is an important element to follow up. Because you do, you have to follow up in order just to continue to build a deeper relationship with people. That’s what most attorneys do is they build relationships, or that’s what they shouldn’t be doing is building those relationships.


Steve Fretzin  [21:19]

Let me throw out a an analogy that maybe someone’s heard me talk about before. But the way that I consider networking, you’re really looking to develop strategic partners. And those are the people that are most likely to be able to refer you once or maybe even on an ongoing basis, obviously, ongoing basis being better. So if you’re an estate planning attorney, and you’re networking with financial planners, you probably can’t work with 20, or 30, or 40, right, there’s probably going to be two or three, but you want the best two or three, not only the best in what they do, but also the best in their refer ability to you. Because if they’re not sending you stuff, and you’re sending them all your things, and you’re not getting that reciprocation, well, then you’re kind of missing an opportunity to have that quick call with someone who is interested in referring you as well as accepting your referrals. And so I think about it like a baseball Scout, where we have to go out and we have to look for talent, we have to look for the people that are nice, that are good networkers that are trustworthy that get it. And then we have to slowly give them something to do and do something for them. See how they respond? Do they follow up? Do they return calls? Do they keep rescheduling on you? Do they keep blowing you off? Well, if that’s so send them back to the Dominican or the minors or wherever you found them as baseball, and then you’re not literally doing that, right. And then the other side of it is you find the perfect person that you’ve been searching for. And you go, this person could play on my major league club, and then bring them up and work with them until you find out Yeah, in fact, they can bring me five to eight deals a year, I can send them a bunch of stuff. Now can I replicate that with CPAs? Can I replicate that with a litigation attorney who doesn’t do estate planning and figure out how to build your team of let’s say six to eight is a good number. And if each of them are referring you a good amount of every year? Well, that’s going to be a really good base of knowing that you’re going to be getting that in each year.


Gary Johnson  [23:11]

Yep, I totally agree. I mean, I actually call it the Gang of Five in the Jackson Five. Yeah, well, I mean, what a huge Michael Jackson fan, you are,


Steve Fretzin  [23:20]

like a little beat it. A little thriller. That’s okay.


Gary Johnson  [23:27]

But I think you’re right on. And, again, if you don’t have a strategy or plan, you’re never gonna get it. I mean, one of the questions that I asked attorneys all the time is where do you get most of your business? And they say referrals, and I asked him, Okay, what’s your plan or strategy to get more referrals? They go, I don’t have one. So your biggest business development is based off of randomness and inactivity. They go, well, that sucks the way you say that. Tell me something different. Like,


Steve Fretzin  [23:52]

I don’t like the way you rewarded what I just said.


Gary Johnson  [23:56]

Like, do you see it differently? They’re like, No, it just sucks when you say it that way. Well, this is reality. And that’s where the coaching comes into place that says, This is reality. However, we can change that with some training with some techniques, and having an actual plan to get more referrals. And that is in the follow up is such an important element. But I think you also keyed in on something that a lot of people don’t think about, which is, can this person help me out? And can I help them out? It needs to be because there’s a lot of times that people like us CPA, and don’t get any business from them? Well, maybe because it’s not the right CPA, maybe it’s a CPA who never refers anybody out. You think you’re going to be the golden goose? No, you’re not going to be you know, you need to look for a CPA that actually does refer business because otherwise you’re just going to beat your head against the wall on a random basis. And that’s, that’s frustrating,


Steve Fretzin  [24:50]

but it’s probably a lot like any law firm. There’s probably one or two people that are actively doing business development and the rest of the people are not gonna work well. The one knocking out work isn’t the one you probably Want to network with because they’re not out meeting people, their network is minimal. And their ability to refer is minimal. And it’s not their own clients. So, you know, maybe it’s a plug for lawyers CPAs anybody to go out and get business because your refer ability level goes way up. When you have a network when you can find people for other people. Well, guess what, you know, that’s all going to come back in spades. So just another thing to consider is, you know, think about your future. And as you’re considering, you know, billing as many hours as you can, and making as much money doing that. But are you really setting up for your future to be sustainable if things go south, or if a recession happens, or if your partner leaves or the one that’s feeding you or your right now, like all these firms are getting bought. So you know, you thought your firm was a 30 person firm was safe, then it gets absorbed by a monster. Now you’re in


Gary Johnson  [25:51]

power, you know, and the person who brings in the business has all the power, it’s not the greatest technician, it’s not the greatest, you know, attorney is the one that can bring in the business, that person will be the last one to get let go. Where’s the personal like, Go is the technician. He doesn’t bring in any business. And they just in fact, I was talking


Steve Fretzin  [26:13]

to one of my clients today, and the question was asked, What’s your billable hour requirements? And you know what he said, he says, they don’t care if I bill any hours, because I bring in so much business, right? I mean, think about that, think about that. A lawyer doesn’t need to bring in Now he does still bill it on hours. That’s what I’m trying to get him to do is to transition and delegate better and get those hours off of his. It’s not that he doesn’t enjoy the law. He knows that he’s the Michael Jordan of his firm, he’s got to get out of the court and play the business development game. And he’s not getting to do enough of it. Because he’s billing hours. So we get so I feel like we could probably go another hour, but I think I might have you come back. Maybe we make this a three peat. And if we do this, like, Ah, you mean twice? Like the Volstead? Who How is your nose bleeding? Okay. Hey, everybody. Let’s give a warm round of thanks to Gary who’s got a bloody nose right now from my comment. But listen, man, you’re awesome. I love the way that you work with your people. And if people want to get in touch with you, they say, Look, this guy is who I want to work with. This is a guy I want to kind of follow. How do people get in touch with you? I would say the easiest


Gary Johnson  [27:25]

way, is just go to LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn, which is very easy to do. And connect with me on LinkedIn,


Steve Fretzin  [27:34]

or Gary Johnson in the country. Right. So no problem there. I’m not the Gary Johnson


Gary Johnson  [27:39]

who ran for the Libertarian Party in 2012. For the president united states.


Steve Fretzin  [27:45]

Okay. All right. Well, that’s given us a little bit of a heads up. So LinkedIn is the way to get your give your website to


Gary Johnson  [27:51]

website is J to marketing Awesome. Yeah. So thank you again, Steve. I mean, I always love hanging out with you. It’s just too much of a pleasure, actually,


Steve Fretzin  [28:00]

you know, and there’s people out there that don’t think, you know, friendly competitors can get along and have a good time and refer each other and work together. And the answer is you’re not, we have to have a mindset of abundancy. And the more you do, the more you get, and the more that things work out. So listen, at the end of the day, Gary, right. It’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker, and that’s what we’re up to


Gary Johnson  [28:24]

changing lives making them into Rainmaker so that they can have the power and the confidence to keep the thing going, which is a good thing. It’s a good thing.


Steve Fretzin  [28:32]

It is look, thanks for coming on, and we’ll having me on. Hey, my pleasure. Alright, everybody. Listen, thanks for spending some time with Gary and I hopefully you got a couple of takeaways, if not, maybe a few laughs We had a good time together. Hopefully you did too. Hey, everybody, please keep the date open August 20. Me and superstar marketing expert Frank Ramos are going to be doing a two hour two time event. Coming up on everything sales and marketing related to grow your law practice, check it programs, and you’ll see what it’s all about and you can register right there from my website. Hope to see you there. Be safe, be well and keep that business development foot on the pedal talk to you later.


Narrator  [29:15]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes