Jamie Spannhake: The Secrets to Mind Management

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jamie Spannhake discuss:

  • The relationship between the billable hour and efficiency.
  • Time management and mind mastery.
  • The 168 Hour exercise and time management tools.
  • Delegation for items below your paygrade.

Key Takeaways:

  • Time management is always clearer when we know what our values are – we always want to spend the most time on what we believe is the most important.
  • Lawyering is all about problem solving, which is creative. The only way to be creative is to have downtime.
  • If you feel like you are failing it is because you have too much stuff on your plate.
  • Time tracking is a great way to find out what you are doing that is below your pay grade and where you could be better utilizing your limited time.

“Mind management is two things – the way that we think about time, and how we talk to ourselves about time.” —  Jamie Spannhake

Connect with Jamie Spannhake:  

Website: https://www.jamiespannhake.com/

Email: jamie@spannhake.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiespannhake/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawyerlionlaundry/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/idealyear

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LawyerLionLaundry

Book: https://www.jamiespannhake.com/products/the-lawyer-the-lion-the-laundry-available-for-pre-order

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.




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Jamie Spannhake, Narrator, Steve Fretzin


Jamie Spannhake  [00:00]

We often say I just don’t have enough time. I don’t have enough time. And that may be true. But if we instead start saying to ourselves, I have too much to do. We change the dynamic so that we instead of being a victim to our time, we are now empowered to do something about all the stuff we have to do.


Narrator  [00:26]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:49]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. It’s so glad that you’re with me today. And I hope you’re enjoying the show. We hope you stick around to the end to we’ve got something new and exciting, I hope that you’re going to enjoy at the end of the show. So you know, listen through the whole thing, and you’re not going to want to miss anything that’s coming up anyway. Because one of the greatest challenges that my clients face and you may be facing is how do you deal with time? And how do you manage time? And is that even a reality? And how do you juggle having kids? How do you juggle the job, the billable hour, the business development? Oh, my God, overwhelming. So we’re going to tackle a lot of that today. I’ve got a really amazing guest someone that I met recently, and we just had the most delightful conversation, and I said we need to bring this to the show. She is an attorney. She is a writer. She is a work life integration coach. And her name is Jamie Spann Hake. How’s it going, Jamie?


Jamie Spannhake  [01:47]

Oh, it’s going great. How are you, Steve? Good. I


Steve Fretzin  [01:49]

do want to hear that name in German.


Jamie Spannhake  [01:52]

Shawn hawk. Nah.


Steve Fretzin  [01:54]

Okay. Those darn Germans with the crazy pronunciation. I love it. Yeah, I’m


Jamie Spannhake  [01:59]

not very good, though. Yeah. All right. All right. I


Steve Fretzin  [02:02]

know your maiden name is Jackson, which I, which we said was much cooler. But yeah, we don’t want to Jackson. That’s right. That’s awesome. I got some, you know, if I changed my name to Steve Jackson, that’s cool. Right? Right. We’re the Fretzin Fretzin is like, what’s that?


Jamie Spannhake  [02:17]

Yeah, the Fretzin You know, there’s not that many sti Fretzin It’s probably just like, there’s probably not very many. Jamie Spann Haix


Steve Fretzin  [02:24]

is also true. There’s no other Steve Fretzin. I want to keep it that way. My son Jr. So we’ll listen to do me a solid in my audience and give a little background because that is, you know, quite quite a lot that you’re involved in, as an author, as as a lawyer, and also as a coach. So take us back and how all that all that came about?


Jamie Spannhake  [02:46]

Yeah. You know, before I was a lawyer, I was an actor. And, and then I came to know the law through sort of a day job and the law firm and decided to go to law school. And so last law was sort of my second career, right. And I’ve been practicing for 17 years. And somewhere along the way, I also became certified as a health coach through the Institute for Integrative Nutrition in New York City. And so I’ve always had an interest in the health and wellness of attorneys. And so I started writing for attorney at work and online blog, right. That deals with everything that attorneys need. And so I started writing for their health and wellness column. And after writing, for about seven years for their health and wellness column, I realized that no matter what problem I was addressing, for attorneys, there were about six things that kept repeating themselves as tools to use to make an attorney’s life better. And based upon those tools is how I came to develop my book that I wrote that came out in 2019. And that book was very well received, and I had a lot of opportunity to talk about it and talk to attorneys about it, and realize that it was the basis for coaching, right, and that helping attorneys apply the tools and techniques in the book was really a an effective way to help attorneys manage their time and their mind, and practice and still have an enjoyable


Steve Fretzin  [04:36]

life. Yeah, and the title of the book is the lawyer,


Jamie Spannhake  [04:39]

the lion and the laundry, over three hours, three hours to finding your Calm in the Chaos. So I worked really hard to write a short book. It’s harder to write short so that the busy lawyer can read it and work through it in about three hours. So that’s the idea behind it. You Africa?


Steve Fretzin  [05:00]

Well, you’re, you know, if you’re talking about managing time and being efficient, then why not have a book that does that? Right?


Jamie Spannhake  [05:06]

Exactly. Yeah. You know, the first drafts of the book were about twice as long. And I had edited as it ended up being and I had several friends who are attorneys read it. And they also the same thing, this really needs to be able to be worked through in about three hours, because that’s about how much time a person would have on the weekend or something, to work through it.


Steve Fretzin  [05:30]

Now, you mentioned nutrition. You mentioned time, you mentioned number things. And what’s the the champ what are the challenge is that lawyers that you’ve seen that, you know, experienced with time? And what sort of isn’t there sort of a weird relationship because of the billable hour with time? And how we how they how time is perceived?


Jamie Spannhake  [05:46]

Yeah, there is, you know, there’s there’s a couple of things that come to mind when I think about attorneys in particular, and time. And the first is that the billable hour does not promote efficiency. Right. And especially as a more junior lawyer, if you’re in a bigger firm, for example, where they have a minimum billable hour, and that model doesn’t promote efficiency. The other issue that often comes to mind, and it’s, it’s the opposite, it’s contrary to not promoting efficiency, is that there’s always more to do, there is a lot that practicing law takes a lot of time. It’s it’s very time consuming. And you’re never done. You’re never finished, you just come to some point in the day where you decide to stop and pick it all up again tomorrow, right? There’s never like, Oh, I’m done. I’ll just done now. That never happens. So those two things combined make it very challenging to have some sort of balance and manage our time reasonably.


Steve Fretzin  [07:02]

You know, it’s interesting, my wife is a teacher, and I asked her about, you know, do they teach you how to study in school? And she said, No, they really don’t do that. And I go, what? And I think that in law school, shouldn’t time management or mastery or some way to manage these these things should be should be taught that should be a class. Oh, yeah,


Jamie Spannhake  [07:23]

absolutely. I think it should be well, before law school, you know, I mean, I think there are people who end up in careers that they didn’t really work through a process to make sure this was the right career for them, you know, and their lawyers, their doctors, their accountants, like, whoever, whatever the job is, there are people that sort of ended up there without learning and thinking about how to make decisions about what to do for your career. So my book, for example, starts with values, because for me, I think that time management and mind management, but in particular time management is, is so much easier, whenever we’re clear on what our values are, because that’s how we set our priorities. And we want to spend the most time on the things that are most important. So it’s yes, we should have a, they have that intro to legal reasoning or whatever. I think in most law schools in the first year, maybe even in the summer, before law school starts, I think it would be great to have a time management. This is how to manage your time how to get things done, how to not feel so anxious about it, how to have realistic expectations, that’s a big one. But what you can do with your time, so that you don’t constantly feel like you’re falling behind or failing.


Steve Fretzin  [08:49]

Right, right. And you mentioned something is, as you’re describing, or answering my question, I should say, and you mentioned mind management, what is what is that?


Jamie Spannhake  [08:59]

Yeah, so for me, mind management is two things. It’s the way that we think about time, and how we talk to ourselves about time. And so one example is, we often say I just don’t have enough time, I don’t have enough time. And that may be true. But if we instead start saying to ourselves, I have too much to do. We, we change the dynamic so that we instead of being a victim to our time, we are now empowered to do something about all the stuff we have to do. And that’s where we open the door to becoming effective in our time management when we think we can do something about it instead of being victim to all the responsibilities. The other thing that time management is for me is finding ways to reduce anxiety, and to stay focused and calm and centered so that we can make good decisions. And for me, that’s mindfulness and meditation


Steve Fretzin  [09:59]

is That what what you’re seeing lawyers struggle with more than anything is just that they’re not calm. They’re not there’s a tremendous amount of anxiety there. They’re working way too much or too long.


Jamie Spannhake  [10:12]

Yes, I mean, I think that the legal industry doesn’t promote taking time to care for yourself. That’s probably true in a lot of industries. But I know it to be true in the legal industry. And that downtime or time off, as is seen as weak, like, you can’t handle it, you can’t, you can’t do it, you got to take some time off. And that’s, that’s really detrimental. Because that downtime is how we rejuvenate. It’s how we get rest. And it’s also necessary for creativity. And I think a lot of people don’t think of lawyering as creative, but it really is, you know, it’s all about, it’s all about problem solving lawyering. And that requires creativity. And the only way that we can be creative is if we have downtime. You know, we experience that when we come up with a solution to a big problem, you know, right before we fall asleep, or while we’re in the shower, or whatever, you know, and that’s scientifically proven. Like that’s, that’s the thing, downtime.


Steve Fretzin  [11:23]

And I went through Transcendental Meditation years ago. And I’m not doing it on a regular basis the way I’m supposed to. So I’m a bit of a slacker in that sense. But I know that if I’m burning out in the middle of the day, or something where I can feel that I’m drifting, and I’m not focused, I go and do 20 minutes of meditation, I come back. And again, I’m back to being myself, shout out to Ken and the way people typically know me, and it just makes a huge difference. Same thing with sleep, and also the way I eat. I mean, I’ve had a number of guests come on and talk about, you know, eating in the Snickers bar versus, you know, the healthy snack or just not, you know, having a very heavy lunch, which you know, if I do that, man, I’m done. Like I’m sleepy time. So, it there’s all these different pieces to the puzzle, how do you bring it all together? Whether and I know that you have some, something you wanted to talk about called the 168 hours and stuff that feeds into my question or not, but maybe they’re two separate points?


Jamie Spannhake  [12:23]

Well, you know, we can start there with 168 hours, because that is, most attorneys feel like they are not good at time management, when really what it is, is that they are trying to do too much. So, I mean, we can always improve our time management skills, and there are tools and techniques for that. But the first place to start is having reasonable expectations for what you can accomplish, right. And so we start with what I call the 168 hours exercise, because there are 168 hours in a week. And what I have clients do is take 510 minutes, however long they need to sit down and quantify the time that they need in any given week to do all of the things that they need and want to do. And then add it up. And inevitably, is more than 168 hours. Yeah, when I do this exercise, I get 188 hours or something. So that’s 20 hours more than there is in a week. And no matter how good my time management skills are, I need 27 hours in a day to do this. And no matter how good my skills are, I can’t do it. And then when I look back over the week, there’s like a whole day’s worth of stuff that I didn’t do, because it’s impossible. So I want people to start from a place of realizing you’re, you feel like you’re failing because you set yourself up to fail, because you put too much on your plate or someone else put too much


Steve Fretzin  [14:01]

on you that yeah, that’s where I was gonna go to is so like, you know, hey, I want to have this balance you’re speaking about and then, you know, my boss, the practice, you know, the group leader practice leaders dumping, you know, every day is throwing, you know, emergencies at me, I can’t get back to what I’m doing. So that’s another whole element of of how do you overcome that?


Jamie Spannhake  [14:21]

Yeah. So, you know, each person is different in their circumstances. So depending on what the circumstances are, are the tools that we would start working on. So it might be that one has more control than she thinks over what work to accept or not. And if that’s the situation, then we start looking at priorities, so that when an opportunity presents itself, the person can decide, is this something that’s aligned with my values and my priority? So I’m going to say yes, or I do, I’m interested in it, but it’s not really You know, in the top priorities for my life, so I’m going to say no to that opportunity. Now, if the issue is that you don’t have a whole lot of control over what’s being put on your plate, then we talk about tools for boundary setting communication for what you need and want. Because sometimes we find that people will dump on us as much as we let them. But then whenever we go to them and and set some boundaries, they will change their behavior. That’s not always the case. But sometimes it is. And then the other thing that we talked about, and this is my, one of my favorite time management tools, is delegating.


Steve Fretzin  [15:42]

Yeah, delegating, that’s the beast of the whole thing you need to delegate.


Jamie Spannhake  [15:47]

Yep, that’s right. So you know, I have a tool that I use with people called the three B’s. And it’s largely about delegating. I didn’t make this tool up. It’s from Martha Beck, who is a life coach trainer. And the bees are Baggot, barter it or better it. And so for any task, or opportunity, whatever it is, you know, whatever it’s part of your must do or want to do. You ask the question, Can I bag it? Can I barter it? Or can I better it? And so bartering it is delegating it, finding someone else to do it, paying someone else to do it, using your assistance, relying on colleagues, babysitter, cook, like whatever it is, you can use it in your personal and your professional life, bagging, it is just deciding not to do it. You have to think about what the consequences are. But if you’re okay with the consequences of just not doing it, no one’s going to do it, then. Don’t do it. Just take it off the list, right? Yep, yeah. And then there’s bettering it, which is something that you either must do yourself, or you want to do yourself, then you try to find a way to make it better to do so the example that I use for that sometimes is, I wanted to take up running, but I don’t really like running, but I wanted to like running. Yeah, so I joined I joined a running club, right, so that there was a running program. And there were other people, there were accountability partners are check ins, that sort of thing. So I better that for myself.


Steve Fretzin  [17:28]

Yeah, that’s really important in the you know, the people that work with me that are interested in business development, it’s one of the first things we have to do is we have to figure out how the time is being spent. You know, what the priorities are, I mean, all the things that you’re talking about, I’m trying to execute with my clients. It’s hard, but it works. And I’ve had a recent success story. It’s not, you know, we’re not we’re not fully cooked out of the oven yet. But it’s, it’s going so well. You know, an associate attorney who’s getting hammered with work, work she doesn’t want to do in areas that she’s not interested in. And she communicated. She’s, they even told her don’t do business development. Like they told all the associates, we just get your work done, don’t do business development. And she was like, No way. And she had just hired me to, so that wasn’t going to happen. Right, right. And she started to make a name for herself. She started to insert and communicate and do things. And now, like, everything’s opening up to her, and she’s getting new business. And she’s getting equity partners that now want to meet her because she’s moving and shaking in the right direction. And she’s delegating a lot of stuff and automating things that she never had before. So everything you’re talking about is doable and workable. You just have to get the buy in, you just have to want it. Right. That’s right.


Jamie Spannhake  [18:43]

And you got to take the time to think about it. Right. Sure. And that’s hard to do when you’re busy. But when you can take some time to actually think about where do I want to be? How do I need what I need you to get there? What’s important to me, you wouldn’t build a house before you drew up a plan, or you’d end up with some crazy building that didn’t work. Right. So same thing, you know, you got to you got to take the time to to build the plan, in order to get where you want to be.


Steve Fretzin  [19:17]

And how much how much time or emphasis do you put on automation? Is that a part of a big part of what you’re talking about with people or is that not? Not a big part?


Jamie Spannhake  [19:26]

Yeah, it is. It can be a you know, because I’m working with clients who each one is different. If they are interested in automation, then then we go there. I would always open the door to that conversation. Because I think sometimes people don’t realize there are things that can be automated. They need. They need a little nudge to get there. But there’s so many things you can automate it and even if it’s not your work, stuff that you’re automating, even if it’s your personal stuff like automatic bill pay and dog food or on, you know, an automatic delivery schedule, whatever it is, yeah, there’s so much that you can automate so that you can then focus on the things you want to focus on.


Steve Fretzin  [20:11]

Right? Right. Something I’ve done to to to help my clients understand how poorly their time is being used in the grand scheme of, you know, billable hours and business development. Like that’s what I want my clients doing those two things, and then getting efficient to the point where they have more time than they’ve ever had for their family and for their health and other things, is to track their day to track you know, their day to track their week, may be bringing it breaking it up into 15 minute increments. Do you do that with with your clients? Or do you something like that?


Jamie Spannhake  [20:42]

Yes, I do. So you know, I am a certified health coach, as well as a work life integration coach. So as a health coach, we often start with do a food diary for two weeks, right? So you can figure it out? Yeah, yeah. So you can figure out what you’re eating. So we know where we’re starting. And the same is true with time do a time diary. It’s, we as lawyers are so adept, our experienced, at the very least with monitoring our time that we can do that, you know, we every six minutes, we know basically what we’re doing that point one, right. So I think it’s really important skill. People often are hesitant to do it, because it sort of sucks to


Steve Fretzin  [21:28]

do it. It’s like well, yeah, trucking is no fun. And it’s no


Jamie Spannhake  [21:31]

fun, but I tell people like but invest the week or two or whatever we decide you’re going to do. And because the dividends are amazing, because you actually see where you’re spending your time. And that’s the jumping off point you’re knowing where you are, you need to know that to go to the next level. So it’s super important to do.


Steve Fretzin  [21:57]

I’ve done this with clients where I’ll give you two quick examples that are just so outstandingly horrible. One was an estate planning attorney that I identified was doing two hours of photocopying a day, copying documents standing next to the printer printing, you know, pulling it off the printer stapling like doing all that all that all that work. And that’s an extra week a month, we figured out right the two hours a day. That’s the math. And then the other one was also crazy was a guy who was staying up till midnight, one o’clock in the morning, by the way, not watching TV, just talking with his wife. I was like, wow, that’s I mean, that’s impressive, that you’re up late. And I talked about what that’s great. But then sleeping in because he needs his seven, eight hours, and then getting such a late start on the day that he’s not even in the office till 1030.


Jamie Spannhake  [22:44]

Yeah. And I was like he’s Yeah. And then he feels like he’s running and behind, constantly behind constantly behind. Yeah, yeah, one of the tools that I use, and I share this with my clients is, if you could pay someone less than what you would could earn and that amount of time, then you should delegate it to someone else.


Steve Fretzin  [23:06]

And in most instances, it’s significantly less meaning it is 20 to $50 an hour for someone to help you with your marketing for someone to you know, you know, do some administrative work bookkeeping, like I do almost nothing other than podcasting, like this, right? I’m here doing this. Yeah. So some level of marketing but but this this type of stuff, working with my clients and meeting with prospective clients, new strategic partners, so it’s all about working in the business and on the business and everything else. I mean, everything. I don’t even have paper on my desk anymore. I moved to a tablet, very cool tablet, by the way, shout out to remarkable too. It is the new, it feels like you’re writing on paper, but it’s a tablet, and it saves everything uploads everything. And I’m totally paper free, which is other than the notes I have for our meetings, because that’s off my computer. But but so helpful, so helpful to have that to have that delegation of all things that are below your kind of paygrade.


Jamie Spannhake  [24:12]

Yeah, and it makes it easier to stay organized to Yeah, because you have less sort of balls in the air.


Steve Fretzin  [24:19]

Yep. So some great tips and takeaways. I really appreciate Jamie and we might have one or two more as we go. But I do want to move to the new segment. For those of you who are active and regular listeners. This is totally new, very exciting. It’s called the three best of and it’s about my guest and where she lives. So it’s the three best of Washington, Connecticut. So if you’ve never heard of Washington, Ken had never been to watch, but maybe you want to go there someday. So let’s talk about Washington, Connecticut. What’s I’ve got three questions for you around Washington, Connecticut. So number one, because I’m crazy foodie type person. Best Restaurant in Washington. In Connecticut, what’s your favorite?


Jamie Spannhake  [25:04]

So the best restaurant in Washington, Connecticut, well,


Steve Fretzin  [25:06]

let me give you your favorite or your favorite doesn’t rated but let me


Jamie Spannhake  [25:11]

give you a little context. Okay. So Washington Connecticut is a town of 4500 people. Okay, it is small, right. So there is a downtown, but it is like, like a town square kind of downtown street. Yeah, Main Street. So exactly. Um, but my favorite restaurant in Washington, Connecticut is the George Washington tavern, which is the GW tavern. We call it nice and you can sit outside, it’s near on the banks of the shepaug River. And they have comfort food, but they also have like a nice vegetarian selection. There’s a full bar. There’s a fireplace inside. It’s casual but delicious.


Steve Fretzin  [26:06]

Yeah, that sounds lovely. All right, and best attraction or park. So again, I’m coming to visit. What am I doing when I when I come to visit? What am I seeing? What am I doing?


Jamie Spannhake  [26:19]

Yes, summer here and Washington, Connecticut is awesome, because there are a lot of outdoor community events. And in the center of town, also on the banks of the Chicago River here. There’s an old gas station, like with the garage doors that you open, that has been converted into an art and community space. And so there’s a lawn out front and they have outdoor movies, they have bands, they have a farmers market. In the evenings, they have firepits where you can roast marshmallows and make s’mores and the town just comes together there. Sometimes ad hoc, there’s no particular event going on. But people just show up and have picnics. And sometimes there are events. So the center of town that is called the Judy black memorial park and garden.


Steve Fretzin  [27:13]

Wonderful. Wonderful. All right and final question and I don’t fit it’s a different answer. But but we’ll see. Most popular thing to do. So whether that’s people visiting or that’s people that live in Washington, Connecticut, what’s what kind of the hot thing to do?


Jamie Spannhake  [27:28]

Yeah, so people come to Washington, Connecticut, because it is the town upon which Gilmore Girls Domo girls,


Steve Fretzin  [27:38]

my wife Oh, nuts right now just hearing that.


Jamie Spannhake  [27:41]

Yeah, that it’s based upon Washington, Connecticut.


Steve Fretzin  [27:43]

Oh my go.


Jamie Spannhake  [27:44]

So like Luke’s diner we have is actually Marty’s diner here. It’s not a full diner. It’s actually a coffee shop. Okay. And we have stores that sell like Stars Hollow paraphernalia. So people come here we have the bookstore and the small school. So people come here to tour the real stars Harlow of Gilmore Girls.


Steve Fretzin  [28:09]

Wonderful, wonderful. Well, listen, that is that is very interesting. And it does make me want to come out and visit if I’m being honest. Come on. Yeah, my wife and I love that love, love art. We love food. We love going to new places, especially historic places, historical places, and I think it was named after obviously is named after George Washington. I guess he was kind of rolling through there on a regular basis.


Jamie Spannhake  [28:31]

I think he stayed here during some battle. I’m sorry. I don’t know the history that well. No, no worries. No worries. But yes, he was here for some period of time. And living in Washington. Yep.


Steve Fretzin  [28:45]

Okay. Well, listen, Jamie, this has been a blast. I think what you’re doing is very noble. I mean, the profession of law is noble. And then working with lawyers and helping them with their lives in bettering their lives is incredibly noble. And I appreciate you and I appreciate you being on the show. If people want to get in touch with you check out your book, check out your website. How do they get in touch?


Jamie Spannhake  [29:06]

Yeah, so my website is Jamie span haik.com. Pretty easy. You can learn about my book, you can buy it there. There’s also free resources there. There’s links to my coaching program. And I would love to hear from people on LinkedIn. Jamie Spann. Hank on LinkedIn and on Facebook, on Facebook, I am the lawyer the lion and the laundry. And also I’m Jamie span a comm Facebook. And you can reach me via email if you like, which is Jamie at span a.com.


Steve Fretzin  [29:38]

Wonderful, wonderful. Well, thanks again. And let’s you know we’ll keep in the loop. I want to I want to keep in touch with you and make sure that that you know my clients are getting taken care of and in healthy mind and body to so thanks so much.


Jamie Spannhake  [29:52]

Thank you so much for having me, Steve. It’s a pleasure.


Steve Fretzin  [29:54]

Great and Hey everybody. Thank you for spending some time with Jamie and myself today. Hopefully you liked the show. you’d like the new segment I’d love to get feedback from you. If you wouldn’t mind sending me an email at steve@fretzin.com Just to say hey love the new segment interesting learning about a new place in the country that maybe you’ve never heard of or been to before. Again just trying to shake things up mix things up we’ve hit you know 100 Plus shows and I want to make sure I keep you interested so let me know and feel free to like us. You know, give us some star some ratings share us let other lawyers know that we’ve got a show that is all about being that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, be safe, be well, everybody, bye bye.


Narrator  [30:38]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes