In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Joe Tamburino discuss:
- Why lawyers struggle to build a book of business and a law practice.
- Honing your skills and learning from others.
- Communication, expectations, and building a great team.
- Building media relationships.
- You have to have confidence in yourself, no matter what venture you go into in life.
- Having a record of success will give you confidence and will really let you know what your job truly is.
- You (or someone on your team) have to be available when business comes your way.
- Everybody has an email – if you are looking to contact someone in the media, see who is in your area and reporting on your area of law, then reach out to them.
“Things happen to make your business successful outside of work all the time.” — Joe Tamburino
Get a free copy of Steve’s book “Sales-Free Selling” here: http://www.fretzin.com/sales-free-selling
Thank you to our Sponsors!
Get Staffed Up: https://getstaffedup.com/bethatlawyer/
- The Law Entrepreneur – https://thelawentrepreneur.com/
About Joe Tamburino: Joe Tamburino is one of the most effective criminal defense attorneys in the Twin Cities and has been named a Minnesota “Super Lawyer” for the last two decades straight. His passion for excellence in criminal defense has led to an exclusive rating as a Minnesota State Bar Association Board Certified Legal Specialist in Criminal Law, a certification achieved by fewer than 3% of all attorneys. He has defended his clients effectively against a wide range of charges – from DWI and white collar crimes to child pornography, assault and homicide – and has personally tried over 100 jury trials. Joe has over 30 years of criminal experience.
A graduate of New York University and the University of Minnesota Law School, Tamburino began his career as a public defender in the Anoka County Attorney’s Office. In 1997, he joined what would become Caplan & Tamburino Law Firm and has become a prominent and visible member of the Minnesota legal community. In 1998 he was named a Rising Star in Minnesota by Minnesota Law & Politics (Rising Stars are attorneys who have practiced for less than 10 years and are the age of 40 or younger). Since 2000, he has been named a Super Lawyer by Minnesota Law & Politics for twenty straight years.
Joe Tamburino was nominated for an Emmy Award for his legal analysis on WCCO CBS TV throughout the trial of Derek Chauvin. He is a frequent legal analyst for CBS News, Court TV and Law and Crime Network. Tamburino has shared his expert legal analysis on high-profile cases and is a regular resource for media looking for a conversational understanding of current events with legal complexities. He also presents regularly to law schools and legal professional groups on a wide variety of criminal topics including: drinking & driving, alcohol-related accidents, homicides and criminal sexual conduct, campaign finance, international matters and first amendment (free speech) cases.
Tamburino is licensed in Minnesota and Wisconsin and the Federal Courts in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and North Dakota.
Connect with Joe Tamburino:
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, everybody, before we get to the show, just want to mention, we have a business development workshop coming up on November 16th at noon central. All you need to do to sign up for that free workshop is to go to Fretzin. com slash events and sign up today. And I know you’ll get a lot of takeaways from it.
[00:00:16] Steve Fretzin: Hope to see you there. And enjoy the show.
[00:00:22] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:00:44] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. Uh, the announcer just told you that, so I’m assuming you picked up on the idea that this is the Be That Lawyer podcast. And this podcast is all about helping you, the lawyer, to be your best self, to really make it as a, as a professional in your profession.
[00:01:01] Steve Fretzin: And you know, that means being confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And if you’re hearing about Fretzin for the first time, I don’t want to beat a dead horse with this, but we really focus on two things. We focus on helping lawyers through coaching and training to really develop their book of business, to be independent, to self sustaining and not have to rely on their partners or other people.
[00:01:19] Steve Fretzin: Uh, or, or just worrying about where the next dollar’s gonna come in. The other thing we do is we take successful rainmakers and we put them in peer advisory roundtables. Really allowing them to get off their island. Things that they wouldn’t talk about at their firm and really, um, in a confidential environment, have a, have a nice place to talk with other rainmakers and successful law firm owners and rainmakers around the country.
[00:01:40] Steve Fretzin: And that’s a tremendous amount of fun. And we’re going to jump in today. We’ve got an amazing guest today. You’re going to love Joe. I, Joe and I had this, this terrific conversation. I mean, I think we’re both like shot out of a cannon and, uh, probably today’s not going to be different. How you doing Joe?
[00:01:54] Steve Fretzin: Good. How are you? I’m doing well. I’m doing well. I’ve got just a freaking crazy day today. In fact, I had to ask a few people to reschedule with me just because I’m, you know, 10 meetings in a day on zoom is a little bit of a mind blow. So I’m, I’m trying to kind of say, Hey, next week’s a little more open.
[00:02:09] Steve Fretzin: Would you mind? And people are pretty, pretty flexible with that. Joe, listen, we’re going to start off with your quote, with the quote of the show, right? And we don’t always get a Napoleon Bonaparte quote, but we’ve got one. Normally it’s Napoleon Hill, who’s a very famous, uh, writer of, uh, Think and Grow Rich and all that.
[00:02:23] Steve Fretzin: But this is the other Napoleon, the real Napoleon, and it’s never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake. Uh, and I love that. So first of all, welcome to the show. Second of all, tell us a little bit about why that’s your quote of the show. What, what, what resonates with you about that quote?
[00:02:37] Joe Tamburino: Well, a couple of things.
[00:02:37] Joe Tamburino: First, I’m a Napoleon Bonaparte buff, and the reason for that is I love European history and also my Italian background, because even though Napoleon himself was French, he was born and raised in the island of Corsica. His whole background was Italian, still up today, even though the island of Corsica has been French owned for hundreds of years.
[00:02:58] Joe Tamburino: They are ethnically Italians, and Bonaparte is an Italian name. And, uh, secondly, uh, his quote not only fit, you know, his battles all over Europe against, you know, the Habsburgs, the Austrian Empire, against everyone. Uh, it also fits the courtroom, which is this. When the other side is messing up. Let them mess up.
[00:03:21] Joe Tamburino: Don’t interrupt it. Don’t, don’t think that you have to, Oh, I have to correct the record or, Oh, I have to get these back on the rails. No. If the other side is making a mistake, let it go off the rails. Let the other side make the mistakes because then you capitalize on it.
[00:03:38] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Are you a, are you a fan of Woody Allen?
[00:03:40] Steve Fretzin: You ever watch Woody Allen? Oh, yeah. You ever see Love and Death? Love and Death?
[00:03:44] Joe Tamburino: Oh, I didn’t see
[00:03:45] Steve Fretzin: Love and Death, no. Okay, I have a homework assignment for you. You need to go watch Love and Death because it takes place at that time and he gets involved with the Russians and the, and the French with, and then he meets, you know, he’s in the, with Napoleon, but it’s, it’s just insane, the whole thing that goes down.
[00:03:59] Steve Fretzin: You know, he’s like a little villager who ends up in the middle of this war. Um, anyway, so you’ll have to check that out, but yeah, really cool. And there’s so much going on in our world, uh, where people are making mistakes all the time. And by the way, one thing I’m noticing too, is that there are lawyers making mistakes with their clients and there, you know, there’s, there’s, you know, you think, well, Hey, they’ve got their, they’ve got their lawyer, they would never hire me.
[00:04:21] Steve Fretzin: And that’s not the case. There’s a lot of lawyers that are making mistakes or taking their relationships for granted and not staying in front of their clients. And Other lawyers can step in and, and they may be willing to move. So I just want to put that out there that that’s a thing, you know, not a Dutchess because people have lawyers that they’re, they’re not willing to open to meeting someone new and seeing, seeing a new face.
[00:04:42] Steve Fretzin: Um, so anyway, Joe, Joe Tamburino, you are the owner of Kaplan and Tamburino based in, uh, in the twin cities, right? Minneapolis. That’s right.
[00:04:50] Joe Tamburino: Downtown Minneapolis.
[00:04:51] Steve Fretzin: That’s a great town. That’s an absolutely great town. It is. And, uh, and give us your background and I know you’re, you’re heavy in the criminal up there, uh, criminal law and, uh, give us your background leading up to be that lawyer tipping point or, or you can float that, be that lawyer tipping point anywhere you want.
[00:05:06] Steve Fretzin: Like I’m not, I’m not hardcore about when it has to happen.
[00:05:09] Joe Tamburino: Uh, no, no problem. Well, I, uh, graduated from a public high school in suburban New York City, a very blue collar area. Uh, I graduated from New York University in 1986, and then I graduated from the University of Minnesota Law School in 1989. I spent approximately one year in the prosecutor’s office in a suburban county, and then I was a public defender for about four or five years.
[00:05:35] Joe Tamburino: And then in 1997, I joined, uh, the Kaplan Law Firm. And then a number of years later, it became Kaplan and Tamburino. And I’ve been the sole owner since 2015. So about eight or nine years. Uh, that’s, that’s my background in a nutshell. In terms of, you know, what was a point in my life that I thought, you know, really, you’ve always got to make something out of yourself.
[00:06:00] Joe Tamburino: The only part that I can really think of that comes to my mind is, uh, back in 1974, uh, when my grandfather died. We were a, uh, second generation, uh, Italian family and, um, I, my mom was a single parent. She, uh, got pregnant with me when she was in, uh, 11th grade and had to quit school. So, uh, you know, she had me when she was 17.
[00:06:26] Joe Tamburino: And hardworking family. A bunch of people lived in the same house, my grandmother, my grandfather, my great grandmother for a while, some uncles, I mean, everybody was in either construction or the trades and my grandfather was a garbage man in New York City. And back then, you know, you could on that salary pretty much raise a whole group of people and, um, and you know, it was very important to move ahead.
[00:06:51] Joe Tamburino: And so, uh, you know, when he died and he died at a young age, he had complications with some medical issues. He was, uh, 59 years old, actually, by right now. And, uh, after that, it really brought into focus that, you know, you got to do something with your life. I mean, we’re placed here. We have the great fortune of being born in this country with everything that this country could offer.
[00:07:16] Joe Tamburino: And, uh, you got to make something out of yours. And that was impressed upon me. And I hope that I’ve impressed my three children with that. And I think I have because so far, they’re all young adults in their twenties and thank God they’re doing quite well. Yeah.
[00:07:29] Steve Fretzin: Well, and I think it’s such an important part of life to have experiences, whether it’s it’s death or near death or role models and, and, um, you know, I have a teenager right now and I’m trying to continually, you know, damaged, he’s not going to listen to me, but he can watch and he can observe and he can see what my, what my wife and I are doing to, you know, better our lives and better his life.
[00:07:51] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, and it sinks in, we, it comes out in different ways in different times, but it, it sinks in and it’s, it’s quite an adventure, but I get totally what you’re saying there. Yeah. So let’s, so you’ve been, you know, just super successful in your space and I know that doesn’t come easy, but talk to why lawyers, some lawyers struggle to not only develop business and I could, I could write, I’ve written books on that, but, uh, but, but to, to, to build a real law practice, something that, that really has legs that has, uh, that the scales that, that has the ability to, to really be sustainable over, over, you know, years and years.
[00:08:27] Steve Fretzin: Most of the time
[00:08:27] Joe Tamburino: from what I’ve seen is they lack confidence, which is something that, you know, permeates throughout society. Um, I think, especially in today’s world, I think it’s really tough to have good confidence in yourself that you could do something. Why? Quite frankly, because of, uh, social media. I mean, everything surrounds us all the time, of people who are uber professionals, but also uber failures.
[00:08:52] Joe Tamburino: And, and we’re all being watched and every word we say is out there in the ether forever. You can never get rid of a text or an email or whatever it is. So I think it makes people very gun shy and they start lacking confidence. But you, even if, then if you have worries about your self confidence, you have to build on that and you have to trust yourself when you go into any venture.
[00:09:18] Joe Tamburino: You know, whether it’s, it’s the legal field or, or anything, even if you wanted to start your own electrical business or plumbing business, you got to have the confidence.
[00:09:28] Steve Fretzin: I think confidence. And I think it’s also about, you know, who you surround yourself with, like thinking about, you know, the coach that I worked with before I got into my own business and my father instilling in me how important it is to own your own business and to kind of run your own show.
[00:09:43] Steve Fretzin: You know, that’s, you know, my father, Larry, the lawyer, you know, was always a very successful solo and, you know, my sister and I are both entrepreneurs and I think he’s very proud of that. And, um, so I think, I think, but also learning from others. I mean, did you learn from Kaplan and like really kind of understand, like when you got in that you had to have mentorship to learn what you now know?
[00:10:03] Joe Tamburino: Yes. Um, because what Ellen taught me. Is, and he had many years of experience as a prosecutor and a public defender before he started the firm. Uh, but what he said is, of course, you’ve got to be the best attorney you can be, but you could be the most spectacular, fabulous attorney, but you could also be the most spectacular, fabulous or attorney.
[00:10:27] Joe Tamburino: So you also have to know how to run a business because if you don’t, then all of your skills, everything that you’ve taken years. To perfect won’t parlay into a career, won’t parlay into a lifestyle, into how you support yourself and your family. So it’s important to be a good attorney, of course, but it’s also important to make sure that you’ve got the business end down.
[00:10:52] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, and there’s a reason I got pulled into this industry, Joe. I mean, this is a, this is a noble profession. These are wonderful people. I work with the brightest, nicest people in the industry, but they have to have an open mind. They have to have a willingness to commit time and energy and even a little bit of money to learning the business side, the business development and business side of the law.
[00:11:15] Steve Fretzin: And again, when you match that up with a great lawyer, I mean, it’s, it’s like an unstoppable force. And I think confidence can be built through those two things, knowing that you’re really good at what you do and knowing that you have the ability to grow business and be sustainable with it. You’ve, and I talked about sort of three key pillars to running a successful law practice firm.
[00:11:36] Steve Fretzin: And I’d like to just break those down into step one, step two, step three. So people listening can kind of, you know, take it in, in, in, in bits and pieces. So… Let’s, let’s, let’s get into that. What would you say is the number one, one kind of key pillar to success in, uh, in building a law practice?
[00:11:50] Joe Tamburino: A record of success.
[00:11:52] Joe Tamburino: I mean, you just don’t all of a sudden get out of law school and hang up your own shingle and start being successful. I started out in the public sector, you know, first, very briefly in prosecution and then in public defense. And the reason for that is because you could really hone your skills. I mean, day in and day out, prosecutors and public defenders are in court during doing all sorts of hearings, whether it’s bail hearings, competency, evidentiary hearings.
[00:12:23] Joe Tamburino: Uh, some type of pretrial issues and of course, jury trials. So you’ve got to really get your feet wet. Now, sometimes you could get that experience with a small law, such as, you know, like we hired one time we’ve done this in the last couple of decades, hired one of our law clerks as a full time attorney because she was really exceptional and we had her in the trenches every day.
[00:12:51] Joe Tamburino: And so that was like being a public defender, so to say. She was really going in and out of court all the time. But you’ve got to have that record of success. It does build your confidence, but it also lets you really know, uh, what, what your job is. I mean, it’s like that. I forget who wrote the book, um, who said you have to have 10, 000 hours of practice before you’re
[00:13:14] Steve Fretzin: an expert.
[00:13:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, 10, yeah, 10, the 10, 000 hour rule of, of, of being an
[00:13:17] Joe Tamburino: expert. Yeah. Yeah. He, uh, oh boy, he wrote a really good book on, also I read his book on, uh, The African American migration from the southern part of the United States to the northern part in the mid, uh, 20th century, uh, was really good. And I’ll, I’ll, we’ll
[00:13:33] Steve Fretzin: come, we’ll come back to that because I, I know who you’re talking about it, but that I think you both, both you and I have it, have it out of our brains for a sec.
[00:13:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,
[00:13:41] Joe Tamburino: so, I mean, and you know, he gave the example of, uh, and you know, still of today, most people would recognize this rock group, the Beatles. And what he gave an example of is that how the Beatles, before they were hugely successful in the UK and the United States, played in Hamburg, Germany. All the time, nightclubs all the time, and they really got their profession down, so getting a record of success helps in no matter what you’re doing.
[00:14:06] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Was it Gladwell that, that’s it. OkayWell, that’s
[00:14:09] Joe Tamburino: Malcolm Gladwell. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He’s
[00:14:12] Steve Fretzin: really, and, and, and again, I don’t know, I mean, 10,000, I get that number, but I think that there’s also something to be said about a thousand hours. And here’s my, here’s my jam, Joan, tell me what you think about this.
[00:14:26] Steve Fretzin: There’s a saying. It used to be practice makes perfect. Right, and I don’t buy that, and I haven’t bought that for a long time, because if you practice the same things the wrong way over and over again, you’re just practicing imperfectly, so, I like to say, you know, perfect practice makes perfect, and I didn’t come up with that, by the way, but that’s, that, oh, you know who did, that’s a Lombardi, for crying out loud, that’s a Lombardi, okay, so I’m stealing it from him.
[00:14:47] Steve Fretzin: But I bought into it. And so it’s, I want to spend the hours on learning something, but I want to make a mistake and learn and improve, make a mistake, learn, improve. So when I’m teaching lawyers, business development, just as an example, I debrief a scenario with them. There’s a mistake that was made, an error that was made, a question that wasn’t asked.
[00:15:05] Steve Fretzin: And then we talk about it and say, okay, so here’s the gap that I found next time you go on the meeting, a different meeting, go in and make sure you ask that question or make sure you do this step or something. Then they’re getting better and better and better. So I think the 10, 000 hours is, is a great number.
[00:15:19] Steve Fretzin: I think it can be done in less if you’re in a position to improve.
[00:15:24] Joe Tamburino: That’s right. I agree with you. I agree with you. Okay.
[00:15:28] Steve Fretzin: As you all know, finding amazing employees can be the toughest job for any law firm leader. You deserve to run the law firm you’ve always dreamed of, but you can’t get there without a great team.
[00:15:37] Steve Fretzin: To get staffed up, they will help you by staffing your law firm with incredible full time offshore executive assistance, legal assistance, marketing assistance, and much more. The best part, they will find you a highly qualified English speaking VA based in Latin America for only a fraction of the cost.
[00:15:54] Steve Fretzin: Locally. At Freson, we use gett, staffed up for marketing person, and you know how good our marketing is. Learn email@example.com slash be that lawyer.
[00:16:06] Get Visible: Lawyers, there’s an easy way to boost your law practice. Partner with GetVisible, the digital marketing agency that makes you stand out. Meet Sarah, an awesome lawyer, but a terrible marketer.
[00:16:18] Get Visible: GetVisible helped her build a powerful website and boost her online visibility. Now she ranks high on Google, gains clients through ads and engaging content. Tired of feeling insignificant? Make it rain. Visit GetVisible. com and stand
[00:16:32] Steve Fretzin: out. So we’ve got that. You gotta be great at what you do. 100 percent agree with that.
[00:16:37] Steve Fretzin: What’s our second pillar?
[00:16:39] Joe Tamburino: You have to be available. And that means when business comes your way, you have to make yourself and your team to a large extent available. And here’s what people do sometimes. And you know, everybody has their own way of living for 35 o’clock comes around. They shut down. That’s it.
[00:16:57] Joe Tamburino: I’ve left the office or I’ve left my zoom screen or, or whatever Microsoft teams. I have punched my card out. If you do that, you’re not going to grow your business. It’s just never going to happen because things happen to make your business successful outside of work all the time. You might get that call.
[00:17:18] Joe Tamburino: I have had many, many calls like this, where it is Thanksgiving morning at 10 AM and the whole family’s around. And there’s someone that needs your help. Or some venue of business that is coming your way. And if you simply say, I’m turning off the cell phone and I’m not talking to anybody, well, well, you just kissed that goodbye.
[00:17:39] Joe Tamburino: Now, the reason why it’s important to have a team behind you is no human being can do this 24 seven. Right on. I mean, you, obviously you need time with your family, God forbid something happens that’s an emergency or
[00:17:52] Joe Tamburino: acute situation, but, and then you have your team, somebody else is going to be available.
[00:17:57] Joe Tamburino: Like, in our firm, what we always have is 24 7, 365 days a year, there is someone from our firm that answers phone calls. Not some recording, not some service out of, you know, Indonesia that answers the call. Someone right in this office has the firm’s cell phone. Second, there is always an on call attorney.
[00:18:19] Joe Tamburino: So it could be Christmas day, Easter Sunday, 4th of July, whatever, Yom Kippur, whatever it is, some attorney will be available. So yes, one person, myself, no way could you do, I mean, you, you just wear yourself out. Right. But if you have a team to do that, you make yourself available. The other
[00:18:39] Steve Fretzin: thing that I find lawyers do a terrible job at is, um, setting expectations, maybe not so much with like a new prospective client that’s calling you because they found you, you know, and it could be a big, big deal, but like with a client that you’ve been working with and they’re just calling you as a lawyer night and day, night and day, and they just expect that you didn’t set any expectations about.
[00:18:59] Steve Fretzin: You know, look, if you have an emergency, then you’re going to call me. And if it’s this kind of problem, if it’s other kinds of problems, you may, or you’re going to call my associate or, you know, you’re going to wait somebody like just something to kind of set the tone of how we communicate so that it isn’t just being slammed all the time when you’re trying to be with your family and you’re trying to have some personal time and have that personal life.
[00:19:19] Steve Fretzin: And I think lawyers just generally, they’re not, they’re not just setting up those kinds of expectations or having the backup lawyer on call, like you said, which I think is really, really smart.
[00:19:29] Joe Tamburino: I agree with the expectations and, you know, most of the time, uh, I would say by far 98 percent of the time, clients abide by those expectations.
[00:19:38] Joe Tamburino: You know, we tell our clients, look, if it’s an emergency, of course you call us, absolutely. If somebody’s arrested, something happens like that. Yes, of course. You call us no matter what. But for most things, by far, 90 something percent of the time, please send us an email. Yes, we’ll connect to you within 24 hours, there’s no problem with that.
[00:19:57] Joe Tamburino: If it’s something that’s a little more urgent than that, you can sure text us. But mind you, if you text us at 7 o’clock at night and it’s not really something urgent like You know, hey, can I drop off this affidavit now that I’ve reviewed it? You know, you could call up our assistant in the morning. You can certainly do that via email.
[00:20:15] Joe Tamburino: So email usually works the best because, you know, then the client thinks about it rather than just grabbing the phone and texting, you know, they get down, they, they send out an email. It might be 10 o’clock at night and you’ll get back to them by, you know, 5 p. m. the next day.
[00:20:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think one of, if we were to survey business, and I’m going to take it on a business, a business side of it, but it could be, it could be personal.
[00:20:39] Steve Fretzin: No, it could be personal too. It’s any, it’s that like, what’s the most important thing about, you know, or your relationship with a lawyer, you know, is it service, is it quality, is it this, is it that, right? Is it rate? It comes down to, in many cases about, um, you know, uh, communication about, about that, that availability and responsiveness.
[00:20:58] Steve Fretzin: And I think you’re really nailing, nailing it on the head with, with the way that you’re managing that. So, so kudos to you and, and, and thank you for number, pillar number two. Let’s move on to pillar number three. Uh,
[00:21:09] Joe Tamburino: get yourself out there, which is if like, you know, uh, with media, like what we’re doing right now when, you know, some radio station or a local news outlet calls you up and says, you know, might you be able to talk about, uh, you know, whatever the issue is.
[00:21:25] Joe Tamburino: If it’s something in your wheelhouse, take it, absolutely get out there. When all of a sudden a high school, uh, you know, social sciences teacher, because I’ve talked at many, many high schools, calls up the firm and says, Hey, you know, we have, uh, you know, part of our process of talking about careers, we’d like to get an attorney in your area of the law.
[00:21:45] Joe Tamburino: You think someone would want to talk to the class? Absolutely. Uh, there are so many different venues that you could get out there, but you have to put yourself out there. Some attorneys don’t want to do that. And you know, obviously that’s their choice. Um, but there are many times where, you know, I mean, take for example, local media.
[00:22:03] Joe Tamburino: Your average local journalist, you know, in a market like ours, which isn’t huge, I mean, it’s top 20, but it’s not huge. You’ll have journalists who are simply calling law firms to get opinions on some issue. It’s not like they have, you know, a direct dial to the best attorney in whatever, St. Paul. But a lot of these beginning journalists just start making phone calls.
[00:22:27] Joe Tamburino: That’s how it happened with me years ago where you have Journalists just calling up, they’re young, and they say, Hey, is anybody there that I could bounce things off of? And you take that opportunity. Now after years of doing this, sure. Then you become known. I mean, there are a good anywhere from six to 12 journalists, both in print, uh, radio and television in the twin cities who have me on speed dial basically, and call me for a whole bunch of things.
[00:22:56] Joe Tamburino: And I love it. And we have great relationships. Yeah. But they didn’t exist. Those relationships didn’t exist until I started making myself fail.
[00:23:05] Steve Fretzin: And I think that probably leads back to the pillar number one of like your track record of success, being an expert in your space and then putting yourself out there, right?
[00:23:13] Steve Fretzin: It’s like a one, two punch on that outside. I want to come back to media in a minute, but outside of media, what else did you do or do you like ask the people at your firm to do to get out there? I mean, media is one, one element, but there’s, you know, a dozen
[00:23:26] Joe Tamburino: others. So, um, every state obviously requires their, uh, bar members, their attorneys, who are licensed in that state, to do CLEs, continuing legal education hours, whatever it may be.
[00:23:41] Joe Tamburino: And most CLE providers need attorneys to teach certain courses. So, when you go, like in Minnesota, there’s the Minnesota Institute of Legal Education and, you know, their CLE programs, uh, they also call attorneys and they say, Hey, you know, we’re putting on, you know, even a half hour piece on this rule of evidence.
[00:24:04] Joe Tamburino: Let’s, let’s talk about, uh, you know, foundational issues. Let’s talk about hearsay. Whatever it is, do you think someone there might want to contribute? Yes, absolutely, because you get out there and do that. Um, the other thing is, uh, legal organizations. Sometimes, you know, you’ll have, and, and not even all legal organizations, community organizations.
[00:24:26] Joe Tamburino: Sometimes you’ll have community groups and some legal organizations who need help, and you help them. For instance, locally, I am a long term board member for the Downtown Minneapolis Neighborhood Association, which is the recognized city neighborhood association for Downtown Minneapolis. I was the chair for three years.
[00:24:46] Joe Tamburino: I’ve also, I’m also part of the Downtown Council. I’m also part of a downtown safety committee, part of the Italian Cultural Center in Minneapolis. So you get yourself involved in all these things. Uh, you know, you don’t have to be super involved, but you know, just do something. Get, get, get out there.
[00:25:05] Steve Fretzin: Well, let me, let me, let me just put two points in.
[00:25:07] Steve Fretzin: Number one is I don’t think lawyers will always recognize the importance of being on boards of being on a, on a part of associations, but not just attending, actually being in a leadership role on a committee. And who else is on that committee? I mean, they say, well, how do I get in front of GC’s general councils?
[00:25:23] Steve Fretzin: How do I get, you know, they’re not at the local chamber. They’re not at the local. Yeah. They’re on boards. They’re with charities. They’re engaged in, in things like when you talk about, you know, the city, you know, who’s involved in the city. You know, that’s where those GCs and that’s where those CEOs, you know, invest their time.
[00:25:39] Steve Fretzin: And I think the other part of it, Joe, and tell me if I’m right about this, cause my, my father, Larry, the lawyer was very good at this. I don’t think he did a great job of developing it into business the way I would have taught him, but he was very good at it, getting it, demonstrating his expertise as a lawyer by sitting on a board with a lot of other high profile
[00:25:56] Joe Tamburino: people.
[00:25:57] Joe Tamburino: Yes. And many times, not all times, but many times when you’re on such boards. Somebody will say to you, Hey, I think you, you work in this area. I know, or I, I’ve seen, I know about your practice and I think you practice in this area. So what do you think of this? And whenever somebody says, what do you think of this?
[00:26:16] Joe Tamburino: And it’s in your wheelhouse, talk to them because you’re going to help them. You’ll establish a relationship and they’ll remember that. And it could be a year down the road when they say, Hey, wait a minute. I have a client or I have a neighbor or a friend or a relative who has a problem in this area and they’re going to think of you.
[00:26:35] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really, really great stuff. And just any other, I wanted to go back to media. I know this is just like a one minute drill, but like, if someone is looking, they they’re top in their field. They’ve got lots to say one tip to be proactive, to try to get media attention.
[00:26:51] Joe Tamburino: Oh, you could just contact your local reporters that you see either on TV or in the newspaper.
[00:26:58] Joe Tamburino: How do you do that? Really easy. Everyone’s got an email. All you got to do, if you’re in, you know, WWY, you know, TV station in middle America and you see, you know, John Smith, the reporter, and he’s talking about some issue that you know about. This is totally part of your field. You email them and you just say, Hey, I saw you reporting on this really nice piece, but I also thought you might want to consider these two other issues that are definitely part of what you’re talking about.
[00:27:30] Joe Tamburino: I have done that many times. Uh, the response has always been positive. You know, the reporters have always said, you know, something like, gee, thanks for telling me that. I didn’t know that. I’m going to keep that in my back pocket for the next time I talk about the issue. And sometimes what they say is, that’s great for a followup.
[00:27:49] Joe Tamburino: When are you available to talk? So literally can just go. It doesn’t matter. Everybody’s got an email. You can easily find them and you insert yourself and you say, Hey, I heard you do this. I saw this. You know, I’m here. If you ever want to talk about X, Y, and Z.
[00:28:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really, really spot on and smart. And again, you know, things have the world has become smaller, right?
[00:28:10] Steve Fretzin: So now we have access to people that, you know, 10, 20 years ago, we wouldn’t have, you know, maybe known how to, how to get in touch with them. And it’s all out in front now. So great. Joe, um, we, I asked you about, uh, you’re not really a big podcast guy and I get that, that not everybody is and that’s all right.
[00:28:26] Steve Fretzin: Um, I want to do the, I’m going to do the podcast, the game changing podcast, and I’m going to put a shout out to my friend, Neil Tyra, who runs the law entrepreneur. And um, I love the show. I’ve been on the show, I think a couple of times, um, but he, it’s similar to be that lawyer, but it’s really focused on the entrepreneurial side of, of the, of the practice of law, the business of law.
[00:28:48] Steve Fretzin: And so if you guys haven’t checked out my friend, Neil Tyra show, check that out. And, um, also want to take a moment to thank our sponsors, of course, Overture. law, helping people to ethically fee share. And that might be, uh, something Joe to think about. They’ve, they’ve set up a really slick system of, of figuring out how to help people fee share nationally, uh, and take care of all the, the, you know, the BS paperwork and stuff that goes with it.
[00:29:12] Steve Fretzin: Of course, GetVisible, uh, helping people on the marketing side, um, everything you need for your, for your, um, for your digital. And of course, get staffed up. So if you’re looking for that full time receptionist, full time admin, full time marketer, like I’ve got in my, my Sergio, I call him my Sergio now, I guess we’re, we’re that type, uh, down in Bogota, Columbia, who’s always working with me thinking of, of, of how to help me grow the business.
[00:29:34] Steve Fretzin: Um, those are our sponsors and they’re awesome. They’re really, really awesome. Joe, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about your firm, they want to network with you, what’s the best way for them to reach you? Oh, my
[00:29:44] Joe Tamburino: email, uh, the letter J Tamborino at Kaplanlaw. com. Yeah. And also Google me, Joe Tamburino, Minneapolis,
[00:29:52] Steve Fretzin: Minnesota.
[00:29:53] Steve Fretzin: Yep. And we’ll put all that in the show notes as well for people that want to just scroll down on their phone and check out that. Joe, thanks so much. This was, I mean, not only a lot of fun, but also I think super helpful because we just, you put it down into simplest terms of how people can really start thinking intelligently and strategically about building a law practice and not over complicating things too much.
[00:30:14] Joe Tamburino: Well, thank you. And you run a great show. These were great questions. And, uh, you know, I, I love the rapport that we’ve built and you make it so easy. So thank you very much. Well,
[00:30:24] Steve Fretzin: let’s just say I’ve had, I’ve had, uh, you know, what do they say? It’s not my first rodeo. So, uh, I think I’ve done, um, we’re already over a hundred thousand downloads.
[00:30:32] Steve Fretzin: I’ve done over 340 shows in about three and a half years. So like this is, this has been, uh, this has been a lot of fun. This has been my pleasure and my joy, Joe, and I appreciate you coming on the show. Taking your, uh, your time to talk, to talk with my people. Um, my, but you gotta, but, but you gotta get on the podcast or list.
[00:30:47] Steve Fretzin: The podcasts are fantastic, Matt. Yeah, I know. You know, I gotta,
[00:30:50] Joe Tamburino: my, my, uh, a lot of people in my family listen to ’em. My, my wife, our kids, uh, they do a lot of walking and they put the heads.
[00:30:57] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. But like, when you’re killing time in the car or walking a dog or like, stuff like that, there’s a little amp on your phone.
[00:31:03] Steve Fretzin: Just click it and just start. Yeah. But be that lawyer in first and then second is, you know, other things that are topical to you. Uh, anyway. Well, listen, thanks again. You too. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you everybody for spending time with Joe and I today. Hopefully you had a fun ride like we did, and again, you know, helping you every single week twice a week to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.
[00:31:23] Steve Fretzin: Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again.
[00:31:31] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.