Jordan Spear: Marketing for Your Unique Law Firm

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jordan Spear discuss:

  • Common pitfalls lawyers make in digital marketing.
  • The unique challenges to marketing for your unique way of doing business.
  • Creative content creation to stand out in the market.
  • What to look for in a marketing agency.

Key Takeaways:

  • Marketing can help you to stabilize your inflow pipeline and allows you to bring in clients beyond just the referrals.
  • Every law firm sees their business differently, even when they are in the same practice area. You need to know the firm to know how to market appropriately to their audience.
  • When working with a marketing firm, they need to understand your firm – if they have a recommendation right out of the gate, they may not be the right one for you.
  • You want to be able to trust that the marketing team behind you understands what your goal is and is bringing information to you about the market.

“Marketing is not just about placement in front of everybody. It’s about strategic placement in front of people that want to do business with that type of firm.” —  Jordan Spear

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Episode References:

Connect with Jordan Spear:




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

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Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Narrator, Steve Fretzin, MoneyPenny, Jordan Spear, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther


Jordan Spear  [00:00]

You got to get to know that in order to market them adequately marketing is not just about placement in front of everybody. It’s about strategic placement in front of people that that want to do business with that type of firm and so you’re hitting the nail on the head with that.


Narrator  [00:18]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:41]

Hey everybody welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day fabulous day you know, something that I was watching over the weekend this tickets on Prime but it’s called not on if you’ve seen this Jordan, but it’s called All or nothing and it’s basically follows a Premier League team in this case it was Who the heck was it? It was last year was like Tottenham Hotspur and then this year was arsenal and I follow the Premier League I’m not gonna get into the soccer chat with you but it basically followed the team through their season and I mean, just amazing motivation and like, what does it take to be you know, to win and what does it take to have a winning season or win whatever I was just so inspired by it, you get the other you get inspired by sports or people like that or not so much?


Jordan Spear  [01:24]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I’m a big sports fan. You know, I was growing up as a kid grew up in South Bend Indiana originally end of the Golden Dome there at Notre Dame. So God is just really bred into acquired by sports in the movies like Rudy and think Yeah, yeah. Whether it’s a movie or or sports or motivational speakers. I find them all fascinating and ruminating at times. Sure.


Steve Fretzin  [01:47]

I think Rudy and maybe Remember The Titans to best like motivational, bright movies for football. Love them been a good one? Yep. Good stuff. We’re gonna introduce Jordan in a moment. Want to welcome you all to the show. And hopefully, you’ve been listening for a while now. And you’ve been getting tips and takeaways, things that are gonna help you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. As you guys know, I’m always trying to bring on, you know, top level minds in the legal industry to help you, you know, just work through a lot of the different ins and outs of what does it take to be a successful lawyer in today’s world crazy world. Jordan was so kind to send me a quote. And I love this quote, for a couple of reasons. I remember, my father, Larry, the lawyer, used to get upset about just about everything. And I gave him this book called Don’t sweat the small stuff. And he was then quoting me things from the book for like, a year after I gave it to him. And of course, he’s completely forgotten it and continues to sweat everything. But Jordan sent me a great twist of that. Would you get that from your you think your drill sergeant?


Jordan Spear  [02:45]

I think it was a drill sergeant back in the military days. Yeah, if I remember correctly, you know, in the heat of a moment, that was it, it was given to me and it stuck. And I get stuck for a long time.


Steve Fretzin  [02:56]

So we’re gonna start off with that book title of don’t sweat the small stuff. And it’s all small stuff. That’s the original book title. This is what your drill sergeant said. Don’t sweat the petty stuff. And don’t pet the sweaty stuff. They get right.


Jordan Spear  [03:09]

That’s right. Yeah. But you know, the reason it’s stuck is obviously it’s always a reminder to kind of just forge ahead and not get hung up on the on the small details are get down on the small stuff, but there’s a little bit of a humorous twist to it. And I like to laugh so that every time I heard that or or said it myself, I or whoever I sent it to got a little chuckle while also you know, receiving the intended message. So,


Steve Fretzin  [03:32]

yeah, version, and I have a sweaty teenager, and there’s nothing worse than petting a sweaty teenager. So anyway, I totally love that quote. And yeah, I mean, it, it is so true. We, especially the stuff, the small stuff that we have no control on, or that’s something I go back and forth with my wife all the time, because she comes from a long lineage of warriors. And I try to say, look, you know, this lady said this to you, that’s her garbage, that’s not your garbage, or that’s not your problem. That’s her problem. And she’ll sit in, you know, lament about it for like days, and I’m just like, Holy mackerel, if I did that all the time, I wouldn’t have any, like, mental capacity that to do the things I do and, and stay sane. So I’m constantly like my wife’s advocate to get her to not sweat this not sweat the small stuff or touched anything sweaty?


Jordan Spear  [04:18]

Well, and you know, all the business of nurses and obviously, the law firm owners are stakeholders, too, whether it’s a small business law firm or any other small business, they’ve got a lot of small stuff, they’ve got to let roll off their back to stay focused on the larger mission. Otherwise, it’s too easy as a as a business owner stakeholder to go insane. So


Steve Fretzin  [04:36]

yeah, and a lot of them a lot of them are and they’re all I mean, there’s a lot of stress and pressure starting out a new year ending a year. You looking at the numbers, looking at the bills, looking at the lack of support, I mean, lawyers are at you know, the stress levels reaching you know, pretty high levels. And so, part of what we want to do you know, in this show, and just generally is help them with automations help them with ways of delegating ways of letting go of things that are consuming time and energy and allowing them to kind of again try to, you know, live their best life. So, Jordan Speier, you are the Director of Business Development at Bold digital ventures. And I was I met you through I think, your sales rep. Alyssa, right. Lisa, les Alyssa. Alyssa now she’s terrific. She’s really wonderful. I just have enjoyed getting to know her better. And, and her introducing us was wonderful as well give us a little background. We’ve already kind of picked up military and some other things. But give us a little background. And then we’ll lead into our main topic today. Yeah, absolutely. Yemen’s.


Jordan Spear  [05:35]

You know, I mentioned before military for five years did military intelligence work. And then for the government for a few years, a number of years in Afghanistan, that hearing a lot of cool quotes, the one of which we pulled out, and then sort of transition to the sales. And that’s why I mentioned SPIN Selling, you know, it’s fairly rudimentary or beginning level sales book, but I had to make a staunch transition for the sake of being home with my family, for military and being abroad to sales career. And that was one of the first sales books somebody put in my hand and told me to read. And so you know, given that as this kind of always stuck around as sort of the catalyst for jumping off into a brand new world, which I did back in 2012, getting into marketing sales, I’ve been doing that ever since some b2b capacity. But then, you know, for the last six or seven years, it’s been solely dedicated to helping law firms small to mid size, primarily, market and attract more business. And all of that the vast majority has been through digital marketing efforts, my spent a number of years as an individual contributor, all the way up to running a large swath of the country for Thomson Reuters for a while there, and then made the transition over to bold digital, as you mentioned, in the director of business development role. And so again, still a primary focus on the legal vertical, we do serve more than just that. But there is a niche to that, given a lot of the background of the founders, etc.


Steve Fretzin  [06:55]

Yeah, in any particular moment. I mean, if it was in the military, or for was this kind of going out on your own, like through your be that lawyer tipping point of like, where are you like, felt your career shift? Or where you felt some real positive motivation to, to change things up?


Jordan Spear  [07:10]

Yeah, you know, I’ve owned a couple of my own small businesses, one of which I sold a number of years back, but I think, you know, founding my first business and sort of being in control from top to bottom of that, really shed light on a lot of things, not just selling solutions, or coming to the door and talking to people but seeing it from their side of the table where you go to sleep at night thinking about your business, you wake up in the morning and forget to taste your breakfast, because you’re sweating, the small stuff, are you thinking about, you know what that day is going to bring or how to make your business thrive or do better. And so that time and owning my own businesses really opened my eyes to their challenges and struggles. Maybe not just those that are on the surface, but also those that occur in the background of business ownership and the responsibility that comes with that. And so, yeah, the biggest catalyst for me was owning my own business. And it’s helped me a lot now, because when I’m talking to law firms or other small business owners, yeah, I’m talking to him about solutions we can provide to ultimately make their life easier, but I can resonate with them on a little bit deeper level. And it’s not just about, you know, product to do this for your business, but to relieve headaches and stress and less to think about less to sweat about. And so that’s helped me it’s helped me understand where they’re coming from, from their angle, and it’s made me better at what I do in a consultative manner.


Steve Fretzin  [08:26]

Yeah. And I think you know, that’s a good lead into our main topic today, which is really about digital marketing. And, you know, I’m obviously a coach and business development side. But I just know that when you can combine business development and the right marketing strategy, the right marketing approach, and you put them together, it ends up being a little bit magical as a relates to how it not only generate business, but locks up business drives long term loyalty. So I want to get into the weeds on that. But one of the things I love to get in your head about is the common pitfalls that lawyers generally make when evaluating like, what marketing digital marketing efforts to implement, there’s so many different options. These days, there’s so much money that’s being you know, are being thought to being thrown around. And I think there’s a bad taste in a number of lawyers mouths about, you know, I, hey, I spent a bunch of money on this, it did nothing, I spent a bunch of money on that it did nothing and they’re, like, frustrated with. So with that whole situation. So what what are you seeing as some of the pitfalls when there isn’t a strategy in place?


Jordan Spear  [09:28]

Yeah, you know, the word marketing even has become just kind of cringe worthy, almost, especially to the to the legal vertical, even though it’s been a short lived concept for that particular vertical, and it’s, you know, legality so to speak. But, you know, some of the biggest pitfalls are, you know, first and foremost are not really entertaining the idea of digital marketing. A lot of firms have thrived on their reputation and, you know, being known for what they do and word of mouth and so the first thing is just a general app. responsiveness to digital marketing to begin with, or any kind of marketing for that matter.


Steve Fretzin  [10:05]

Yeah, the like, if it ain’t broke, why fix it? You know, why put money into something if we’re getting leads in today, they’ll be here tomorrow.


Jordan Spear  [10:12]

Yeah, and you know, and that’s what we tried to explain to in the you know, and again, this is going back to being a business owner, myself, and really taking control of your pipeline. And I’ve sat in front of countless, countless attorneys and law firms. And one thing that will all admit even with a reputation is that their business pipeline has ebbs and flows to it. And one month, the referrals are flying through the door, the next month, you think everybody forgot about it, and you can’t explain why. And so, you know, if nothing else, marketing for firms like that can help stabilize that pipeline and give you less to worry about over the cheerios in the morning, because you’ve got another means of attracting qualified business and not just living and dying by when someone decides to provide that referral. And so, you know, there’s just in in in doing that, and taking that next step to evaluate what tends to happen is if you’ve got people like myself from various organizations that come in with different opinions on what works and, and some are a little bit more judicious than others, or look at it from one angle or another, some are very superficial and just simply tell you do this, and let’s go and then you end to have a bad experience from something like that. And it can spiral into more barriers or defense against exploring more of those options down the road.


Steve Fretzin  [11:21]

It’s a fret sin mantra that I teach all my clients prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. And so we understand that in the world of doctors, right, that if you have a hurt arm, and you go in and the doctor says, you know, easy peasy, let’s just cut that arm off done. No problem, okay? Well, I kind of like my arm, and I’d like to be able to, you know, you know, hug somebody, you know, with two arms. So that’s not a that’s a terrible prescription without doing any diagnosis. So I agree with you that I think that everyone feels that whatever hole shape they have that you fit in that, you know, if you are triangle, but you feel you have a hole shape did that that triangle is going to just needs to be adapted to fit into that hole, which is not the case. Every law firm, every practice area has different ways of that they that they, you know, can effectively market their business. And when you talk to some people, it’s a one size fits all, hey, everybody should podcast. Well, guess what? No, that’s a terrible idea. Most people shouldn’t podcast, it’s the wrong venue, the wrong marketing strategy, the wrong XYZ. So I think you’re right on the money that either they’re not doing it at all, or because they’ve either had bad experiences, or because they’re just kind of uneducated about it or been led down somebody’s bad paths, they don’t know what to do.


Jordan Spear  [12:36]

Right? Well, I’m gonna like you’ve kind of mentioned there with the anecdotal Doctor story, there’s a lot of marketers that I don’t want to say under educated but just a little bit more superficial in the approach a, you know, everybody does pay per click, you got to do pay per click, for example, come on in, that’s what we’ll do. It’s turnkey, it’s easy, it’s easy for them to sell, it’s easy to accept as a law firm who’s heard of it. But is that the right strategy, either in a standalone manner, or otherwise, you know, is yet to be determined. And so you understand the goals of the firm and what they’re trying to accomplish. And of course, to I think our next topic, is marrying that with a little bit of data that props up the rationale for the recommendation on how to approach it for a firm, and I think we’re gonna get into that. So I will put the card,


Steve Fretzin  [13:17]

you’re not gonna put that card in front of the horse. The The other thing that I think is really important is is how is the digital marketing agency or whoever you’re talking to about marketing? What’s their process for evaluating you as a client and you’re evaluating them as as a potential strategic vendor, we want to look at it. And I have also found that if there’s a lot, there’s way too much presenting, and that goes back to the prescription, way too much presenting even if it’s, you know, a bunch of different channels. I would rather have someone whether it’s me or a lawyer, like get to know me get to know my business, spend some time asking questions, I got sold something the other day, that was well over $100,000 okay for me to do something. Not going to say what and get into the, into the weeds on it. But I emailed the guy after I go, Look, I think you’ve got an amazing product, amazing solution. But I think your process is terrible. Like, I didn’t say it like that wasn’t that mean about it? But like, I was like, you know, do you want me to take 30 minutes and just help you selflessly help you with the way that you’re managing these meetings, because he heard sold me like he wouldn’t even get around to the price until I basically had to pull it out of him. But then when he did, it was clear. Like, that’s an insane number for something that I don’t even really need. Like it was just really bizarre. So I think we really have to think about, you know, what the process is and use that as a way of understanding is this agency good or not? Because if they’re not asking questions and getting to know you and what’s worked and what hasn’t and all that, that could be a maybe a sign that it’s not a good fit right from the start. Yeah, no,


Jordan Spear  [14:51]

spot on. And you know, a quick example on that is with law firms have sat down in front of hundreds of Narberth 1000 law firms and chatted on digital strategies and efforts and business development. You can imagine within that I’ve sat in front of a lot of firms that work within the same practice areas, perhaps the state planning. But I can’t really tell you and they would all tell you this, but a lot of people would look at it this way, almost none of them are the same business. They’re all attorneys, they all do estate planning, they may do probate, they may not do probate. But the point is the way they approach the business, the way they see their value delivery to their clients, the ways that they carry themselves and interact or portray there are all very different. And each one is an individual case. And you got to get to know that in order to market them adequately. Marketing is not just about placement in front of everybody. It’s about strategic placement in front of people that that want to do business with that type of firm. And so you’re hitting the nail on the head with that.


Steve Fretzin  [15:45]

Okay, well, I appreciate that.


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Steve Fretzin  [17:16]

Let’s take things further than give me your take on why it’s important to understand maybe the behaviors of the of the clients or the customers in the area that you’re focusing. So we’re talking about estate planning? Why is it important for lawyers to really maybe take a deep dive to understand the behaviors of those the way that those buyers buy or the way that those people behave? Before investing in digital?


Jordan Spear  [17:42]

Yeah, it’s absolutely critical. And if people aren’t kind of going down that road with you to educate your firm on your consumer journey, prior to any recommendation, then it’s probably not as thought out as it needs to be. You know, every in generally, you’ve got legal consumer behavior, which we like to pay special attention to, because when we can ultimately understand that, study that and then marry that up to marketing best practices to get in the way of those consumers actions or journey, that’s when we really start to have a productive strategy in place. But even so within the legal verticals, that consumers act differently, you know, a staunch example would be a DUI case, you’re gonna want to market very differently to somebody that in a very brief moment immediately needs your services and needs to speak to somebody convert, as opposed to the example you just gave on an estate planning firm, where not only are people apprehensive, or maybe they just don’t understand they need to be engaging as an estate planning attorney and have an estate plan. They’ve got to be nudged along with their buying cycles entirely different. They’re going to they’re going to seek information, they’re going to interact with a firm potentially, in different venues in the digital ecosystem. And they’re gonna need to be convinced that it’s worth finally reaching out. And so you know, the way that we ultimately get in front of legal consumers because of the way they act and shop is just as important as the way we then go about fostering or hand holding those potential leads to conversion as a law firm, and every single legal vertical is different in that sense and requires a different attention to detail and a different strategy to do so adequately.


Steve Fretzin  [19:21]

So is there a specific example you can give me maybe with a recent client of yours where you identified the way that their buyers are buying the target market they’re going after? And how you kind of leveraged the digital strategy around that?


Jordan Spear  [19:37]

Yeah, you know, I could probably, as I think about it, something a little bit more situational. And this is going back about two years, but I liked the story because I liked the strategy. We were working with a DUI firm and they were wanting to educate local college campuses on the fact that they could still get those on the line wire scooters etc. And We did a little bit of market research and there weren’t a lot of firms in that given market that were explaining that producing content on that getting in the way of those individuals that may have come across that type of an incident and be in need of help. And so, you know, we implemented a strategy to start producing content both in the way of frequently asked questions pages and blogging content to educate these college campuses. And then, of course, ran that content through different mediums and through Pay promotion to target audiences in those areas to help help them understand one we want to we want to try to prevent that from occurring naturally. And even though law firms make their money on that side, they do you want to, you know, proliferate content that helps their customers stay out of trouble or their prospective clients. And so ultimately, what happened there is that became index and that content became relevant in that market, they became the only firm really discussing these pay to rent over the phone, Scooter issues. And we were able to attract a number of qualified clients primarily around the college university there that found them because of inquiries or otherwise searching online, how to handle something like a situation like that. And we were able to drum up business that otherwise wouldn’t have really existed for the firm. And that was a very quick turnaround and just sort of an isolated example.


Steve Fretzin  [21:11]

Yeah, but I love that because you’re taking a specific type of motor vehicle, a certain type of situation and seeing that, yeah, this is happening quite a bit. And it’s not being captured, or it’s being captured in a way, that’s an all we can educate people, but you can’t stop stupid. So right, things are gonna happen. You want to be the one that they’re thinking of when you know, people act, stupid. And drinking certainly supports that stupidity. And I enjoy drinking too, by the way, but I also know that I was quite stupid back in my college days, and I’m glad there weren’t scooters available, because that would have been problematic for me. Yeah, I’ve watched it occur, it’s, it’s something else, but I just, I just followed the train tracks home, that’s how I got home, you know, right, the energy stop. All right, so we’re not going to get into my college experience any more than that, guys. So thinking about then, you know, looking at the client behaviors, and then how does that also then align with the appetite of the firm to invest or the appetite of the firm to want to me, what kind of motivation do they have to invest money in and really start putting it towards, you know, towards their marketing? Because I think that’s a hesitation. Most firms are like afraid to spend the money? What’s the return on investment? How quickly is it going to come? And that can be really kind of a source of frustration?


Jordan Spear  [22:34]

And I think a lot of the frustration comes from just the ambiguity of what to do and what works and how do I know it’s working, and oh, every marketer comes in, and it’s just spend money. And we’ll see if we make money, I think when you come in and as we do, and sit down and talk about the legal consumer trends, how they shop, how they make decisions, to partner with a specific attorney, and why they make the decision to do that, and he helped the law firm, and the attorneys really empower them, really, to understand why, you know, for instance, I don’t like to blog, and I don’t like people writing my blogs for me, because they write at a low level, and it doesn’t represent me well. And so that’s a common objection we hear a lot of times, but when you can start to help, you know, these law firms understand why there might be value in the circulation of content at the level of their consumer, when they want to digest it, you know, that can help get them over the hump and erase some of the worry as to why we might be doing something. You know, one example I give firms all the time, and it’s super important is they all want to be in Google, and they all want to show up for that vanity search term, personal injury attorney, you know, near me, right, and something that they don’t really stop to think about is what’s going to attract a lot of visibility, but is it is there viability there. And there may be somebody that’s your lowest converting arena, when it comes to legal consumers, they convert into a climb in round 4%, when your discovered through that mean? Means because they’re either shopping for price information, maybe they’re a salesperson looking up to the next firm to call, right. So you catch a lot of the frivolous stuff with that, when we start talking to our firms about long tail searches. And that is somebody going in and search out a very specific question into Google or looking for, you know, what if I’m injured online wire schooner who’s responsible going back to that, but putting the PII twist on it? Well, you know, if your firm can start to build up a robust amount of content on your website around those types of questions and things, and people are searching in that longer tail form for something very specific, and you’re showing up, you’re viewed as the expert now on that topic through your content, you’re separating your firm you’re being discovered, you’re answering a direct question. And so when we can affirm showing up and being discoverable for longtail searches, which believe it or not the lot easier than competing for the vanity, we can get out there and convert consumers, you know, legal consumers that are rated 24% in decline. And so starting to understand, you know, maybe the most efficient ways to go about again, needing to be in line with the goals of the firm, how quick they need to be Row caseload, how quick they need to diversify the caseload. There’s just a lot of real data out there that suggests there’s a better way to do it. And so I think just understanding that data is the firm empowering with that makes that decision a lot easier to make to implement certain strategies.


Steve Fretzin  [25:16]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so let’s say in, you know, not to make this an ad for your company, although it might turn into that if someone’s evaluating a digital agency to understand if there’s a good fit to understand if there’s value there. And in making that investment, let’s say they’ve been burned before, once, or maybe multiple times. Okay, look, I’ve spent, you know, I had a guy, you know, I paid $30,000, to do a web site. And the most important part I told him at the very beginning was I wanted it to convert, I wanted it to be something that would lead someone to filling out a form and it didn’t do that. And I said, What’s the biggest problem with my website goes, well, this isn’t going to convert, I go over, and I make for $30,000 back, right? So like, it was like I’ve been, we’ve all been in that place. So what are the like three tips that you would say, hey, whether it’s me or someone else, if you’re evaluating an agency and a strategy that would work for you? What are the what are the top things that they should be looking for?


Jordan Spear  [26:11]

Well, I think you alluded to one earlier in the conversation, and that’s that they don’t come through the door with a pitch and with a product and something, you know, how can they recommend before they understand not only what you need, but who you are, and how you conduct your business and who you serve, specifically. So you know, I can’t tell you nine out of 10 times I walk into a law firm, and I say, is the website accurate, and it will almost, but we have this on there, we don’t even do it, you know. And so it’s just really the first thing you got to you got to know is that if somebody is coming through the door with a recommendation right out of the gate, that’s probably not a solid one, somebody that’s coming through and demonstrating some business acumen and asking the right questions and wanting to understand your business. When it comes to marketing. There’s various theories to it. Some of it’s not just about the lead tomorrow, some of it’s about conveying the value of that firm to its consumer, differentiating them from their competitors in the market. You can’t simply do that by walking in and building a website running a pay per click campaign. You know, it’s funny, you say conversion, you want it to convert, I refer to websites as conversion platforms all the time. Sometimes I gotta preface that by saying, your website, AKA your conversion platform, because that’s what they’re built to do. And so you know, just looking out for those people that are coming in wanting to understand your business asking the right questions. Number two, super important, I would say is what we just were going through, and that is, you know, if I’m a business owner, and somebody’s coming in as a business development consultant for me to Market to Market me to my consumers, I’m going to want them to be able to provide me with some intelligence or some information on my consumer, simply just understanding the ins and outs of building a good website or running a pay per click campaign, they’re just gonna fall short. If we don’t understand how is the consumer gonna gonna digest that? How are they going to find it? How are they going to interact, and what do they want to see to ultimately convert for something like that. So I’d say Be on the lookout for somebody that really wants to educate you they come in and and it’s an exchange of information, they want to know about your business and how you conduct it, how you go about your day, but they also want to share with you some information on on who you serve, and the things you know, that they may not provide value to them, whether or not you know, that firm partners with them or not, it should be consultative in that manner. You know, in number three, I tell people when they laugh, you gotta you gotta like me, you gotta like the you know, the rep, you got to like the person you’re talking to, you got to believe that they’re intelligent, they know what they’re doing, and that they can deliver on their promises. Because when it comes to digital marketing, specifically, it’s very much a relationship based business, people will continue to do their digital marketing with somebody that they like, even if they don’t know that they’re doing the exact best job that day. And so you know, if you can find an intelligent, consultative individual that understands the ins and outs of your client and digital marketing, and you check the I like this person that’s sitting across from the box that I’m going to have to deal with on the business front with regularity. I think those are probably the most important factors.


Steve Fretzin  [29:08]

And I would add to the last one, just the their ability to convey the level of expertise of the team behind them. Because while you may be working with the owner, the rep, you know, someone that’s in a position to help, you know, walk you through this buying decision, you know, the team that’s on the backside, they’re the ones that are actually, you know, doing the search engine optimization to pay per click the ads and what’s their pedigree, what’s their, you know, is this being outsourced to, you know, here or there and how’s that being managed? And so you also want to be kind of aware of, you know, the back side of things, just just it’s not a bad question to ask, you know, really great stuff, Jordan. So let’s go to and you mentioned this at the right at the beginning of our visit that the game changing book for you is SPIN Selling just really getting you the A’s, B’s and C’s of of selling getting out of the military and into into kind of that career path, right.


Jordan Spear  [29:59]

Yeah, you know, out, and I’m sure the attorneys out there, they’ve got some piece of collateral that they look back at that meant something to them or, or seemed groundbreaking or maybe, you know, acted as a springboard for them in their career that they now look back at, as you know, pedantic or not necessarily, because their level has progressed, right. And selling was just one of those first books that a mentor, as I crossed over into the sales and digital marketing world, put into my hand, said, read this, no, this I did. And, you know, it just sort of shifted my mindset from one career path in the intelligence community and being overseas and all of that, and then just kind of flipping the script into dealing with business owners understanding needs, understanding what they’re doing today, what they want to be doing, and ultimately how to help get them there with the products that you have at your disposal. And so they put me in the right mindset for that. And it was sort of a springboard for me into, you know, further exploring other collateral and then just getting better every day at what I do, and, and formulating that consultative sales approach. That’s, that’s benefited me and my clients like,


Steve Fretzin  [31:02]

yeah, and one of the reasons I wrote my first book is called sales Free selling Jordan. And one of the reasons I wrote it was because I was I came up in sales, and not just sales, but hardcore 80s 90s, early 2000 sales, which was, you know, you got to sell, you know, convince, you got to get them to change their minds, right? Don’t take no for an answer. Don’t take any prisoners. I mean, that was the manager methodology that I came up with. And I always had a terrible distaste in my mouth about it, and feel, you know, almost felt like I was taking advantage of people which it I hated it, I hated that part of it. And I just like to be honest and have integrity. So sales, free selling, for those of you who would like to pick up a copy of that on Amazon, it’s, I think it’s super inexpensive. We’re on Kindle, it might be free, but it really just walks you know, how do we take that consultative style to the next level, where it’s all about building relationships, taking control of a meeting in a in a cooperative way, walking the buyer through buying decision? Right diagnosis first prescription later, all the things that we just talked about? So it’s been selling? Yes. Sales pre selling, also, yes. So Jordan, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about bold digital ventures, what’s the best way for them to reach out?


Jordan Spear  [32:14]

Yeah, they can find us on our website at Bold Digital Also, you know, I’m directly reachable at Jordan, at Bold, digital Again, always happy to set up some time to chat, always happy to get in there and understand what you’re doing. And, you know, whether it’s myself or any of the representatives of our company, we also offer, you know, free evaluations of your current digital ecosystem as part of that diagnosis and just sort of free exchange of information to benefit whether or not there’s a partnership. Yeah, our phone numbers are on there. And we’re very reachable and very responsive. And we enjoy the conversations and have a passion for what we do.


Steve Fretzin  [32:50]

Yeah, it’s it’s clear and talking to you that you do and we’ll have all that information in the show notes as well. So people will find it very easy to get in touch with you, Jordan and check out your company with before we wrap up, I just want to thank our sponsors, we’ve got legalese marketing, just helping, you know, take off something like acting as as sort of that cmo for your marketing in particular, something they’re doing with law, Maddox and other you know, tools like that to help you automate. So like when I do this podcast with you Jordan stuffs being automated through law, Maddox and legalese is the one that sets up all those automations. So you’ll know when the podcast is coming out, you’ll have the assets to market it and put it out on social and do the you know the cooperative things so we can get this this a great interview in front of people obviously want to thank money Penny, they do the live chat on my site, they also do live receptionists, you can get rid of your receptionist, hire a virtual one that takes care of things and gets, you know, helps convert right since we’re talking about converting convert, you know, the web leads into you know, the phone calls that come in away from a phone tree and into actual business. And then of course, practice Panther, that wonderful Practice Management site and company that helps to just automate the way you’re running your law practice. So that’s all good. There. Hey, Jordan, thanks so much for being on the show, sharing your wisdom. I think everything we covered today was just rock solid, helpful to the lawyers that are really struggling with the whole, you know, digital marketing, digital kind of strategy, idea, and just, they’re kind of pretty unhappy about it, I think. And so I think you really laid out some great ideas and points for them. Yeah,


Jordan Spear  [34:21]

no, thank you, Steve. I appreciate, you know, the conversation and the platform to do so. And, you know, if anybody’s wanting to dig in a little deeper to some of those trends and things and understand their consumer a little better, reach out to us.


Steve Fretzin  [34:33]

I mean, you go and thank you everybody for spending some time with Jordan today. Hopefully you got a couple of good tips and takeaways and Now obviously, this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer someone who’s confident, organized and skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well, we’ll talk again real soon.


Narrator  [34:52]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website frets For additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes