Josh Schwadron: Standing Out as a Personal Injury Lawyer

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Josh Schwadron discuss:

  • Lawyers and advertising in the United States.
  • How Mighty is changing the personal injury law world.
  • Secrets of personal injury lawyers.
  • Separating yourself from other law firms.

Key Takeaways:

  • Personal injury lawyers don’t compete on fees or on what they do, they compete on marketing and on who can scream the loudest and stand out.
  • In personal injury, lawyers’ incentives are misaligned with the incentives of their clients.
  • It’s not about a race to the bottom, it’s about creating differentiated value to get more business.
  • Be authentic in how you differentiate yourself. It’s not about the market tests, it’s about what you embody in your marketing, your service, and your culture.

“Most industries are crowded, everybody looks very similar. And if there is something unique about you, that superpower actually should be translated into a benefit to the customer..” —  Josh Schwadron

Eventbrite Invitation:

Episode References: 

Book: The Upside of Stress by Kelly McGonigal

Connect with Josh Schwadron:  





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Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Narrator, Steve Fretzin, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther, Josh Schwadron


Josh Schwadron  [00:00]

most industries are crowded, everybody looks very similar. And if there is something unique about you, that superpower actually should be translated into a benefit to the customer. And if you can do that, then you really had the opportunity to create differentiated value and get more business.


Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Real quick, everybody, we’ve got to be that lawyer live Coach’s Corner coming up on December 9 at 10am Central time, we’ve got the amazing Sharon V. Steve Sackler, David accurate and Gary Johnson, all of whom have been on my show to answer your toughest legal business development questions. And we’d love for you to come and join us. At that time, you can either email me directly at or check out the show notes below for the Eventbrite invitation. Hope to see you there. Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am your host, Steve Fretzin, as the announcer mentioned, and I hope you’re having a terrific day. Listen, we’ve got an amazing show for you today. I’ve got Josh waiting in the wings, who’s going to be an incredible interview today. How you doing, Josh?


Josh Schwadron  [01:36]

Hey, I’m doing really well, Steve, thanks


Steve Fretzin  [01:37]

for having like that, like that pressure I just put on you. Yeah, that’s true. Okay, so if you don’t impress everybody, it’s going to come back to haunt you. I’m just letting you know that right now. But listen, you guys know this show. It’s all about helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. And, you know, today, we’re going to be talking a lot about what Josh does, and how unique it is in the space. And my hope is that you walk away with just a little different mindset about how you can establish yourself as a disrupter. And coming up with something unique that can just change the way you’re viewed amongst the sea of lawyers that you’re sort of in the middle of. So obviously want to take a moment to thank the sponsors, we’ve got practice, Panther, we’ve got money, Penny, and legalese, all helping you to be more efficient with your time and get up to date on technology. So check out their ad or giveaways later in the show. Josh, we’ve got a quote of the show that I think is really interesting, never waste a good crisis. And that’s a Winston Churchill, right?


Josh Schwadron  [02:36]

Yep, that’s exactly right. The heck does that mean? Yeah. So this is a chord that I live by, you know, there’s a lot of bad stuff that happens to all of us, in our personal life, or in our professional life. And we can look at those losses, as losses and stay on the mat. Or we can actually look at those as opportunities. And I think there’s a really amazing mindset. But if you look at processes as opportunities, that there’s actually lemonade that you can make out of lemons, one of the things that I’ve been especially good at throughout my career, is taking kinds of hard docs, and translating them directly into opportunities that I wouldn’t have found had those hard Doc’s not come.


Steve Fretzin  [03:25]

Yeah, I think it’s what we need to do for our kids to like, you know, if it’s too easy for them, that’s why they’re growing up and not understanding that life is hard. And so I think, you know, when my son just lost his retainer for the second time in like, four days, um, first of all, he’s paying for the replacement, which is not cheap. Second of all, I scheduled the meeting for him to go to his orthodontist on a Saturday at 8am, these sleeves to like 11 on Saturday, so he’s getting a double hit. But he just texted me that it was all his fault. And he feels really bad about it. So I mean, these are little things. But I think without failure, there’s no learning, we have to fail, we have to get up. So I really appreciate that quote, and Josh Squadron, you are the CEO and founder of mighty, and I’d love for you to talk about mighty But first, you know, share your background and kind of how you got into the legal space.


Josh Schwadron  [04:16]

Yeah, so I went to law school about 15 years ago, graduated bars in three states, practice lightly, but immediately was drawn more to the business world. And one of the amazing things about founding a legal technology company, which is what I’ve done over the past decade, is being able to combine, you know, two of my both educational but also interests, which are law and business. And so for the last 10 years, I have been in and around legal technology, most recently as the founder of mighty Yap.


Steve Fretzin  [04:53]

And it’s interesting that lawyers who get into legal you know, maybe don’t realize it, maybe they do that there are so many opportunity He’s for them to diversify. If they’re not happy, you know, billing hours all day and they want to mix it up. There’s business development, there’s marketing, and there’s also helping someone run a business and scale a business and being a part of that. And not just being an in house counsel, but being a part owner and like actually building something. So is that kind of what your thought was? You just kind of like, really, you could utilize your legal background in solving problems in the law to help build a build a business? Yeah, well, I


Josh Schwadron  [05:26]

think first year, you’re 100%, right. I mean, every business the lawyers, arguably, businesses need lawyers more than they’ve ever needed them. But certainly, if your business is actually law related, like my use is, it’s even kind of a double benefit to have a lawyer that understands not only the legal aspects of running a business, but when the product is legal or disrupting legal. It’s especially compelling.


Steve Fretzin  [05:54]

Yeah, I agree. It’s something that I’m interested in getting deeper in with you. Give me your be that lawyer tipping point, just sort of kind of leading up to where you know where you are now. And I want you to share a little bit about mighty as well.


Josh Schwadron  [06:07]

Yeah, so mighty over the past few years has been primarily b2b software that is used by personal injury lawyers to run their businesses more efficiently. And it was a compliment, or it is a compliment people’s case management systems. And it saved lawyers roughly $100 million dollars in the in the last 12 months, we had an opportunity to double down on that software about a year ago. But it would have cost consumers even more than they paid personal injury lawyers today. And that’s because we had the opportunity to launch a product where the lawyers would have paid us a lot of money. But they were then pass that cost on to consumers out of their settlement. And we decided not to do it. And instead, what we decided to do was actually go one further, and compete with our own customers, the personal injury lawyers, and launched a consumer offering where we’ve partnered with mighty law, which is an affiliated but independently owned law firm, in order to give consumers who are injured in accidents, a different service than they get today by calling a lawyer that they see on the billboards.


Steve Fretzin  [07:27]

Okay, so you guys have your own kind of your own jam now. And so instead of working with personal injury attorneys, you’re now competitive to them and trying to offer better services to the consumer. And I think what that suggests is that there’s some disruption there, which we’ll get into in a moment. The first kind of way I want to go or question I want to ask is really what’s happened where I’m driving down the highway, and it’s one billboard after another after another, and then I come home and I throw on cable, and I can watch commercials anymore. But if I do when I’m up in like Milwaukee, right, it’s, you know, not Better Call Saul, what is it? It’s one call, that’s all it’s a guy up in Milwaukee. He’s got this great tagline. But it’s billboards. It’s TV, and it’s just constant. So what’s happening in the in the, in the US lawyers and advertising?


Josh Schwadron  [08:19]

Yeah, so I think there’s a few elements at play in personal injury. One of those elements is everybody wants to compete for business, obviously. But what’s unique about personal injury is that the elements that most companies compete on, which are things like price, service level, and quality, transparency, those don’t get competed on in personal injury, everyone has the exact same price, everyone charges 33%, pre suit 40% Post suit, people, a person jewelers don’t compete on services, you know, they don’t offer a wide range of services, they just help people file their lawsuit. Everyone has the same level of transparency, which is like they try and follow the ABA rules as strictly as possible, no more, no less. And so by not competing on any of those elements, what they instead decided to compete on is marketing, who can scream the loudest who can hold the most dangerous looking weapon? And I think that’s one of the reasons is that the entire industry is conditioned to do different marketing, if you’ve been to a personal injury conference, and I’ve been to many, it’s actually fascinating how almost all of the sessions are about marketing and getting more leads, and very few of them are about the practice of law and how to actually offer a better service to your clients. So I think that that’s one element. I think the other element is it is incredibly expensive to get access to people who are injured in a direct response way. So if somebody searches on Google I’m looking for our personal injury lawyer, you’ll have personal injury lawyers that pay, you know, $500 for one of those clicks, which is astronomical. So people try and get in front of potential claimants all the time. And one of the easiest ways of doing that is creating awareness through billboards or TV commercials or bus stops. And, and so I think that those are the kind of two dynamics at play.


Steve Fretzin  [10:27]

Okay. Got it. Got it. So, what’s the so is that sort of how the pie space is sort of broken in the sense that instead of them competing on service and quality and results, it’s a marketing play that’s like pure and simple. Is that the key element that’s broken? Are there other pieces?


Josh Schwadron  [10:46]

Well, I think that is a symptom. Okay. I think it’s a really good question. There are, I would say, the biggest problem in personal injury today is that lawyers incentives are misaligned with the incentives of their clients. And the biggest reason for that is that most clients don’t know and aren’t educated about what to look for how to shop, how to compare two lawyers against each other. And as a result, lawyers know that no matter if they raise their price, or lower their price, their conversion rate will be the same. So why not raise the price if the conversion rates not going to decrease when I lower my price? Might as well keep it high? Right. And the lawyers as a result, have developed a bunch of practices that in any normal industry would never fly, but in personal injury have not only survived but even thrive. And it’s the result of clients not being holding the lawyers accountable for these bad practices and bad incentives. Okay, so I think that’s the big problem in personal injury, that and how to solve it.


Steve Fretzin  [12:09]

Well, let’s let’s take it maybe even one step deeper, which is kind of what are the the attorneys that are spending millions on TV and billboard and pay per click etc? What is it that they don’t want the consumer to know? What are they hiding something? Is it since their you know, their dot being just transparent is I think what you’re doing, which we’ll get into in a minute, yeah. Is that kind of the big the big deal that what are they hiding? Oh, yeah, I


Josh Schwadron  [12:37]

mean, there’s tons of things. I mean, you know, we talked about billboards, one thing they’re hiding is, they put these big numbers on billboards, we weren’t, we’ve won our clients $40 million. One thing they’re hiding is the fact that numbers, the gross settlement. And clients get the net settlement. So they’re hiding the fact that the client actually has to pay the lawyers fee, the medical costs, the financing costs, keys costs, and they a client actually gets far less than that number. And one of the reasons they hide it is because they are scared that if they tell the client, the net number, the client is going to say, Oh, that’s not worth my time to pursue. And it’s the lawyers fight in financial interest, obviously have as many clients pursue cases as possible. Another thing that they hide, is you sometimes see Morgan and Morgan with these billboards that say it’s free? Well, they’re hiding the fact that Morgan is only taking cases that are highly likely to win. At any point, after they’ve taken the case, that they think it’s not going to win, they’ll drop the client, which, you know, certainly doesn’t sound free to me.


Steve Fretzin  [13:46]

And also, if you think about the, you know, like, if I’m paying a lawyer 500 an hour, that might seem like a lot, and if I need them for 100 hours, that might seem like a real lot. But if it’s a big settlement, and you know, the lawyer makes 5 million, and I make 5 million or 3 million, whatever the number comes out, you know, that lawyer didn’t work that much harder for 5 million than he did for 500,000. That’s really where I think there’s a disconnect for me, not that I don’t think everybody can win in that scenario, but it’s huge windfall from that’s why, you know, you could say, Hey, what the PII lawyers are taking the risk of working for free to get, you know, through that year, 235, whatever conclusion, but I still think that that, you know, if you look at it from that perspective of like, what we pay for things, it can seem a little out of whack, too.


Josh Schwadron  [14:34]

Oh, without a doubt. I think that’s a really great point. I think maybe to say your point back to you. Contingency. You hear a lot of lawyers talk about how by being on contingency, they’re giving a gift to the world, and they’re, you know, it’s access to justice. What they don’t want to tell you another secret is that lawyers make More money, not in spite of contingency, but because of contingency. And the contingency model has actually been a boon to many personal injury lawyers who would not make nearly as much money if they were just charging hourly. For the same exact work.


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Jordan Ostroff  [16:29]

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Steve Fretzin  [16:49]

Well, there’s a reason that that some firms have, you know, legal or advertising spends of 510 20 plus million a year, and other lawyers would hear that and go I don’t want to spend 10,000 on a website. But there’s people’s blood. Why are they spending that money? Well, because they’ve got a machine that’s proven out and they know that they can get their pick of the litter on cases. One thing I wanted to ask you about Josh was about your business as a disruption to the industry. And I want to hear about that. And I think we’re we’re picking up on that as we go here. And then I’d like you to kind of teach a little bit here, if you would about what lawyers should be thinking about to be disruptors in their space, regardless of what practice area, it’s and, you know, if you’re in a room with 100 attorneys that do the same thing, how do you stand out? And how can you come up with an angle that’s going to help you to be more successful, versus just being just one of the crowd? Yeah,


Josh Schwadron  [17:47]

so the first mighty and mighty law are an alternative for some of the injured calling a billboard lawyer. And the thing that we’ve done that’s very different than any personal injury law firm that we’ve seen is we sat down and we made a list of every bad incentive that a law firm personal injury law firm has, and the mighty law lawyers have agreed to a code of conduct that is unlike anything that exists in PEI today that addresses each one of those bad incentives, and tries to turn it on its head. So let’s give one example, which is actually the example that you brought up, Steve, which is that lawyers typically charge the exact same contingency fee percentage whether the case settles for $500,000 or $5 million. But a $5 million case is not typically 10 times the work is a $500,000 case. So the lawyer shouldn’t be paid 10 times the amount. And so mighty law, part of the code of conduct is that as the settlement value goes up the contingency fee that the mighty law lawyer charges goes down. And that’s one example of how we’ve taken this bad incentive. And we’ve turned it on its head, but there’s many others, we advertise differently. We make referrals differently by actually refunding part of the referral fee that mighty law lawyers make back to the client. Because we think that referral fees are a windfall in a lot of cases. There are disclosures related to referring to medical providers, because there’s a conflict where lawyers make more money often the minute the more medical treatment consumers get. So there’s a bunch of things that mighty law has done to differentiate ourselves. And we’re really kind of proud of all of those changes. And just a one second plug. Because I know a lot of your listeners are lawyers themselves is mighty law is also building a national network of lawyers. both full time and part time. So if there are any lawyers listening, that are intrigued by the law and potentially want to get involved, I know that many law is, is hiring and expanding.


Steve Fretzin  [20:13]

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I think that’s great to put that out there because your model sounds like it’s built on integrity, and it’s built on disrupting an area that, you know, maybe it’s still functioning a little a little bit in the past some ways. So you figured out sort of an angle to disrupt and to be different in a space that’s very crowded with the same? What would you say to attorneys that are, let’s say, it’s an estate planning attorney, or let’s say that it’s an EI, or an IP attorney, doing intellectual property, surrounded by competitors all day, every day trying to compete for the same business? What are some things things that you talk about as it relates to differentiation? And and finding that kind of that unique branding statement or angle?


Josh Schwadron  [20:56]

Yeah, well, I think I think unique is the right way of looking at it, I think what we did is we looked to ourselves, and tried to take our advantages, and what was unique about us, and extend that to our offering, and our customers. So the thing that was unique about us is we’re really good at building technology. And our technology has saved personal injury lawyers, as I said, over $100 million. But what we noticed was that none of those personal injury lawyers were taking that money that was saved through technology and innovation, and passing it on to their customers. And we said, well, if we could use our software ourselves, and we saved ourselves money versus traditional Personal Injury Lawyer, what would happen if we actually did pass that money on, and we were able to charge clients less than a traditional personal injury lawyer that would differentiate us, but really, we aren’t necessarily making any less money, because we’ve found that we are more efficient on the operational side through technology than the average law firm. And therefore, we can actually afford to give consumers lower prices, better terms, more transparency, yeah. And we leaned into what we were good at and made that relatable to the customer. And so I think the advice that I would give people is like most industries are crowded, everybody looks very similar. And if there is something unique about you, that superpower, actually should be translated into a benefit to the customer. And if you can do that, then you really have the opportunity to create differentiated value and get more business.


Steve Fretzin  [22:43]

Yeah. And I was thinking about, you know, lowering rates, is that a differentiator? No, I think that might be a race to the bottom, I think that that efficiency for savings is a good one. That’s a sticky one. And I think people have to really to think about a their superpower. I agree with that, like, what are they better at than everybody. And that’s important. And then the other thing is, maybe there’s a if you see everybody swim in one way, and you can swim another and test it out. You don’t have to buy into things, day one, you can test something out for three to six months, and talk to people about it and see what their feelings are and try it out on some prospective clients or whatever it might be. And that could be you know, something, I’m working on infomercials and positioning statements with clients all the time. And you know, it’s not easy to figure that out. Right, especially if you’ve been doing something a long time. But I think we have to look at things, maybe even getting some outside help. I mean, that’s, I’m not a branding guy. Like, that’s not my job. I enjoy that I enjoy the creative creativity of it. I mean, creating infomercials, but you know, it might be that lawyer, people have heard me talk about, you know, I didn’t come up with that. I needed a marketing eyes from the outside to come in and look at me, and what are you all about? Fretzin? Well, I’m all about helping lawyers to be that lawyer. Right? They’re like, well, you know, I didn’t say that. They said that. But I was like, yeah, that works. That’s it. They nailed it. So any other kind of final thoughts on on ideas to differentiate or to figure out how to how to separate?


Josh Schwadron  [24:10]

I do think that, you know that one of my different quotes that I really like, is that we spend the quarters we spend our entire lives trying to find the thing in ourselves that the common passerby will learn within the first five minutes of meeting us. And so I think the search for what is different and unique, is often hard, insular way, meaning we can’t look to ourselves and figure out those answers. Yeah. And so if people are open to getting help, finding a coach, finding a mentor, finding a friend who will help them do the exploration, and it might, by the way, be hard meaning they might actually be something that is ugly. That’s actually incredibly valuable. All. And I really recommend that sort of exploration for


Steve Fretzin  [25:04]

people. Yeah, and even talking to your clients, like, just hey, you know, you hired me. And we had a great experience together, you’ve told me on a number of occasions, you know, why did you hire me? What what did you find about me and my firm that was, you know, that separated from the pack or that you just that you that you felt would be the right solution for you, you do that 10 times and you start hearing the same thing over and over again, you know, you might want to lean into that and figure out like, what it is, like, I’ll give you a quick example. There’s a Labor and Employment firm that assess their clients and figured out that responsiveness was the number one thing that mattered to them. And they leaned into that. And they became the most responsive Labor and Employment firm in Chicago, on their website, on their business cards, on their infomercials, everything. And they got a lot of movement from that, because they realized that no one else was willing to talk about how responsive they can be. So these are the kinds of things that the creative side of running a law practice that we have to really, you know, figure out, you know, either sometimes it hits you like lightning, and sometimes it’s like a slow drip on your forehead, and you got to, you know, take a year of it before, before it sticks. Well, I


Josh Schwadron  [26:11]

think you actually tapped into something else that is important to note, which is whatever that thing is, it’s important that you are authentic. Yeah. And that person found responsiveness as a selling point, not because they did a market test, but because that’s actually what they embodied in their culture, and then their service. And if you can combine those two, it’s, it’s incredibly powerful. And a lot of people I think, just search for the like, what’s the thing that’s converting a little bit better, even if it’s inauthentic to them? And that might work in the short term, but it rarely works in the long term. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [26:50]

Well, Josh, really great stuff, man, I appreciate it. Let’s talk about your game changing book. And I sent it to you wrong when we spoke earlier. And it’s the upside of stress. And is there an upside to stress? What’s who’s who wrote that book? I can’t tell you who wrote it, okay,


Josh Schwadron  [27:06]

there’s only one of them. So, if you go on Amazon, you’ll find it instantly. Okay? It’s a social science book. And it’s actually really fascinating. We as Americans are conditioned to believe that stress is bad. stress causes a lot of disease and peril in our lives. And the book actually doesn’t want to add on that perception of stress. And the key conclusion to it, is that there’s actually three mindsets related to stress, there’s stress for people who think it’s unhealthy for you. There’s stress for people who think neither stress is good nor bad. And then there’s people like me now, who think of stress is actually positive. And what they found was that your actual body physically changes in how you perceive stress. So in a really fascinating study, in the book, they looked at housekeepers who cleaned hotel rooms, and they found that they had tons of aches and pains in their body, and that they were physically very worn down because of the jobs that they were doing. They brought control group of these housekeepers into a one day seminar, where they explained to them that the work that they were doing, actually helped build strength in their bodies. And that when they did this work, they should actually think of it as a form of exercise and a form of health positivity, not as I like job that is going to wear them down. Yeah, brand back breaking work. That’s right. And they went back to that control group, or sorry, rather, they went back to that group that they had that message to three months later. And they found that they were actually other blood pressure went down there, like other objective results went down just by that one day of education. Yeah. So there’s also evidence Sorry to keep going on the book. There’s also evidence to show that we actually perform better when we’re under stress, and it brings out more creativity. So anyway, I recommend the book to people but the one of the reasons I like it is because I think it is a counter intuitive, book and title, most people and I think it also changes at least has changed my mentality in a very fundamental way.


Steve Fretzin  [29:34]

Well, there aren’t a lot of books that I hear about that I immediately want to go by and read and this is one that I think I’m going to pick up it’s Kelly McConkey goggle, the Ganga and Donegal Kelly McGonigal Wow, what a tough name for me to say. But I think for loi for me, you know, I’m reading it for me but I think also because it might be something I want to share with my with my clients because many of them are highly stressed. You know, billing huge hours, they got to do the BD. You know, I have to, you know, claw them off the wall occasionally play it play as, you know, armchair therapist for them. But Josh, thanks so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom, I think what you’re doing is really interesting and disruptive to the to, you know, to a market. That’s definitely saturate and, and again, it might might open up some eyes that there’s some other ways of doing things versus just the traditional way that it’s been done. So really good stuff, man. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me, Steve. Yeah. And hey, everybody, thank you for spending time with Josh and I today, I found it fascinating and interesting and fun, and you know, and all that. So hopefully you did too. And again, if you want to get in touch with Josh, what’s what’s the digit Josh if they want to hear more about mighty and they want to, whether it’s join your team or whether just learn more about it or send people your way or whatnot.


Josh Schwadron  [30:48]

So I am convinced that we have the best domain name and all of law. So you can just go to and my email is Anyone who’s listening is pretty email me directly and I’ll respond and hook them up with someone on our careers team or anything else they need and or somebody knows somebody who gets injured you know, I think we can help we can help them and we work all across the country. Yeah, very cool,


Steve Fretzin  [31:13]

man. Well, listen, everybody, thank you for spending some time again today and again, helping you be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe and be well we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [31:28]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes