Keith Sbiral: Delegation for Success

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Keith Sbiral discuss:

  • Saying yes to the right things, and no to the less important things.
  • Why lawyers do and do not delegate.
  • Delegation authority and framework.
  • The 5 levels of authority.

Key Takeaways:

  • You don’t have to delegate everything right away – prioritize what you need to do and delegate the things that are below your pay grade.
  • Delegation is also about authority, and passing that authority (in the long run) to somebody else.
  • Think about what you can delegate outside of work. It may be worthwhile to hire your own personal assistant depending on where you are at in your career and where you are headed.
  • The levels of authority build on one another. This will build expectations and trust as you go along.

“You have to delegate with authority. You can’t just say ‘here, go do that.’ You have to let that person know what the parameters are, otherwise, they end up being stuck.” —  Keith Sbiral

Connect with Keith Sbiral:  







Sign up at for a FREE 30-minute consultation!

Prior Episode:

Thank you to our Sponsors!

Legalese Marketing:


Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Keith Sbiral  [00:00]

You have to delegate with authority. Okay, so you can’t just say here, go do that. You have to let that person know what the parameters are, otherwise they end up being stuck.


Narrator  [00:17]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for thrilling a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:39]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely and wonderful and terrific day. I just had a crazy weekend fishing in the snow. I was telling Keith I was out fishing with my son in the snow and a snowstorm that was pretty crazy and took my wife into the city for a stay city staycation in this beautiful city, Chicago, if you ever have a chance to stay at the Peninsula Hotel, just the nicest hotel in the city, and we just did a whole tour of food and everything, it was really fantastic. And we need to take these breaks, right? We need to we need to decompress and celebrate life and have some fun, it can all just be work. But that’s what we’re all about be that lawyer, right. So you get organized, get confident, build that book of business, and wow, it opens up time for you to have the kind of life that you want. And a big part of that is you some of you, in many of you know is delegation, the ability to delegate and I’m going to introduce my guest Keith in a moment, I want to take a second to thank our sponsors legalese marketing and money. Penny, you’ll hear more about them in a minute. And Keith submitted a quote to me, and I want to say that quote, and then I want to ask him about it. And it is a quote from our friend, Steven Jobs. People think focus means saying yes to the thing you’ve got to focus on. It means saying no to the 100 other good ideas that are there. You have to pick carefully. So Keith, why don’t you submit that and by the way, welcome to the show.


Keith Sbiral  [02:00]

Hey, thank you. I’m glad you got out fishing this weekend. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully, it’ll do less snowing and more sunshine here.


Steve Fretzin  [02:07]

Yeah, coming weeks. Crazy, Stupid. And we still had fun. That’s good.


Keith Sbiral  [02:11]

Know that quote, that quote is, you know, not, you know, it’s not an unpopular quotes out there a lot. And that concept of knowing what to say no to, so that you can focus on what you’ve said yes to, and really determining what’s an opportunity and what, what isn’t, is so key, because, you know, when we talk about a limited amount of time we have and and everybody has the same 168 hours in a week. Right? And so knowing what is the distraction? And what is the true opportunity just becomes, you know, critical, especially as you move up in your career.


Steve Fretzin  [02:51]

Yeah, and I think I’ve gotten hit by the the yes, the Yes, monster too many times where, you know, people want to engage me in things, and it takes me off course, it takes me off of my true path and where my superpower is, where my core focus is, or however one we want to look at it. And this has happened throughout my career, because I’m just, I don’t know, if it’s just the ambition, it also is just I’m, I’m always I’m an opportunist, and I’m looking for new and interesting things to do with just my brain doesn’t settle. I’m constantly out there. So I’ve had to really bring it down as it relates to what works within my core focus and what doesn’t. And if it doesn’t, if it’s even taking a networking meeting with someone that is off direction, you know, meeting with another financial planner, after Ever After I’ve met with 10. And I have three solid ones, right? There’s only so many meetings you can have in a day. So it’s it’s it and that’s going to really lead us into how we manage our day in our time today in our in our discussion.


Keith Sbiral  [03:46]

Well, it’s on both sides. It’s not just the I have so many opportunities flowing in my in my direction that I can’t I can’t decide or I can’t do what I want to do, right. It’s also the scarcity mindset of Oh, no, that’s an opportunity. I just can’t say no to because if I do, what if no other opportunities come along, right? Yeah. So you kind of shoehorn yourself into an opportunity that isn’t really the best for you. So yeah, it’s a it’s a lot of quote there.


Steve Fretzin  [04:14]

It’s a good quote, lots of different things to talk about there. Keith spiral. Is this your second time on the show? I think, right. Yeah, I think so. All right, we’re moving around. I think we’re sitting at like 175 shows. And so I think it’s gonna happen where we need to bring people back to to keep squeezing the juice. And you and your partner Amy have a ton of juice in you to squeeze so


Keith Sbiral  [04:36]

it’s like Saturday live like at some point. Do I get a five time jacket or some tie?


Steve Fretzin  [04:40]

No, no, we’re gonna work towards it. I think right now. You get the two time thank you card. That might be Yeah, there we go there. But you’re the co founder of epro chromatic. Now, did I say that? Right? You did. Wow. Well, that’s a two time the first time I did it. So there you go. And talk a little bit about your business and what you do and how you work with lawyers, because I think that’s important to set up where we’re going with our show today.


Keith Sbiral  [05:06]

Sure, absolutely. So we work with attorneys really, anywhere from the one and two person shop all the way up to the bigger corporate firms. And we we work both with professionals, but we also work with teams. And I think that our team development and leadership development work is probably the most applicable here today. Because if you think about it, even if you’re just one person with, with an assistant, that really is your team, right? You’re you’re putting together what you’re doing every day. And so we work with teams to increase productivity to really figure out what those opportunities are for you that can move you forward, executive coaching, executive presence, all of those types of things that really help you find the find the focus that you need. So my background is in management, I was in a in a management position for about 18 years before we started asthmatic. And so that’s kind of the direction I come at it from.


Steve Fretzin  [06:05]

Yeah, and you and Amy have not only been on the show, but you’ve also been so kind as to speak with my peer advisory roundtables and talk to the lawyers that I work with in those groups, about time management, about delegation about the things, a culture, things that they’re really challenged by, especially during the COVID days in the post COVID days. And hopefully I’m saying post COVID. And it’s not we’re not already into another cycle. But you know, there’s just it’s just it, the game has changed, the rules have changed, the industry is changing. And and I think delegation is such a huge part of how lawyers can be successful. But let’s talk about why lawyers don’t delegate, what’s the kind of the mindset, the psyche psychology around why they need to do everything themselves.


Keith Sbiral  [06:49]

Oh, my gosh, there’s so many. Yeah, we can fill the rest of the rest of the time with this. But you know, the, the number one thing we get is, it’s just too much work. And I don’t get the quality I want, right. So, so many lawyers are perfectionist just out of out of the reality of the business, right. So if you get to that point where you just don’t feel like anyone can do it as well as you can, then it’s really hard to let go. And after you’ve done that for a few years, then it becomes really hard, because then it’s kind of a habit, and it’s kind of ingrained in you. And so there’s a way to unravel that. But the the logical side, or the attorneys brain has to say, I can I can use leverage, I can use the leverage of delegation to accomplish more, with less of my energy, right. So it’s not always about just doing more, doing more doing more, sometimes it’s about being able to recharge yourself, so you can actually


Steve Fretzin  [07:52]

live. And I think there’s a there’s a, like a balanced pain threshold that happens where lawyers, you know, they either have to be in so much pain with the work they have, or the amount of things they’re doing that are non billable, or whatever that they they realize they have to make that decision to delegate and bring someone on, or they have people on, they’re not delegating to, but the pain of giving that, that that away giving that work away giving that that assignment away, is less than, you know, just it’s just easier to do it myself. That’s I think, you know, it’s just easier just for me, by the time they there’s what I hear, by the time I teach them and train them and get them on this. I could have just done it myself. And I think that’s a very kind of short sighted view of things. However, I think that mindset and that, that that comment has been made, you know, millions of times.


Keith Sbiral  [08:40]

Yeah, and the thing about that is that so often, that is based in some previous failure, right? So it, I can do it myself quicker, or in the time it takes me to teach them? Well. That’s the key here, right? So there are methods you can use to make sure that that teaching and that process doesn’t fail. And if you if you implement that the you know, it’s, again, it’s one of those things where logically, an attorney is going to understand the leverage, logically, an attorney is going to understand that a small investment now can pay off massive dividends later. But yeah, like like a gerbil on a cage in a cage. We just keep not making the investment not making the investment making the investments. So, you know, I think it’s really an how you approach that that is where the success comes in. And then you train yourself right once once you get a little bit of success with that delegation. You unlock the key, the you unlock the lock to, you know, massive productivity and, and kind of a balance.


Steve Fretzin  [09:48]

Yeah, and I think it’s also, you know, what I’ve always called the 20 to $40 an hour rule and that can go up from there, but if you’re billing at you know, 250 to 500 an hour and You’re afraid to spend 20 to $40 an hour to hire someone that’s going to take administrative bookkeeping, marketing business, some business development, even some paralegal type work. And I know that the numbers go up. But it’s, you’re not realizing your full value and watch what you could bring to the table. It’s just easier to do it yourself. And you’re just missing the point that you could have more free time, you could have more time for business development, you could open up channels and banks of time that you never realized were there. And I think that’s the power of delegation. And in the lawyers that don’t do it, because they’re afraid or because they’ve tried and failed or whatever. They’re just they’re just missing a major, major point of how you develop not only more money and more revenue, but also that free time. Yeah,


Keith Sbiral  [10:49]

absolutely. And it’s, and it’s, you know, it’s just that that idea, like you said, especially with with that with that idea of, of hiring someone at a at a much lower rate, even if you hire someone at a pretty high rate, you find a real quality person, you know, who wouldn’t take a 20% investment with 10% money? Yeah, if you do that all day long every day. So can I started, it’s right in front of many people.


Steve Fretzin  [11:15]

Right. And so I think what we want to talk about today, Keith, you and I, and this is where your expertise comes in. And the things that you’re working with lawyers on every day, is understanding what is delegated ball, and then how to do it, and how to identify either how to train someone to do something, or how to what are like the stages of of, of how you how you delegate, because I don’t think you delegate 100% A one we’re gonna get there in a minute. But talk a little bit about how you sort of can figure out what’s delegate what’s delegate double? Yeah. So


Keith Sbiral  [11:49]

I think that the whole process is really tied together in this concept of authority, right. So it isn’t just about delegation, it’s also about authority. And so you have to think about what things you can do that you can give authority away, logically right? For eventually, and don’t worry about right now, or today worry about in the long term. So obviously, you’re not going to give away drafting the brief that that’s going to make your career right. But like you said earlier, there’s administrative, there’s payrolls, there’s, you know, all of this other work that can be done. And even to some extent, business development, at least some of the stuff on the back end, right, that can be that can be done to keep business development moving forward. And you need to identify those things that can really, that can be carved out, and at some point, then you could see having some authority given away on that. So I think that, you know, the first thing is, it’s kind of a chicken before the egg before the chicken thing, right? Because you have to figure out what things you’re gonna delegate, but you also have to understand the framework by which you give the authority. So I know we’re gonna talk about that in a second. But I think that, you know, realizing what things in the long run you could give authority for is the critical part there.


Steve Fretzin  [13:15]

I think I think you mentioned, I think there’s two pieces here that we can spend another couple minutes on number one is identifying the specifics of what are what are delegate double items. So when you mentioned bookkeeping, when you mentioned payroll, when you mentioned administrative, marketing, etc, it would make sense for a lawyer to look at a day or a couple days of his or her life. And just like you track your time track what you’re doing every day. And if you find that you’re doing a ton of things that are non billable, or marketing that isn’t getting you anywhere, or you’re just surfing on LinkedIn, or whatever it is it you’re finding, write it down, because that’s the starting point of what we need to do just understand and identify how we’re spending our time and identify what’s delegated? Will this sort of a step one, what would you add to that?


Keith Sbiral  [14:04]

Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it’s really difficult, but almost every client we have, we have them track their time in a little bit different way. And when you get on when you get on a call with a with an attorney and tell them they have to track their time, typically, this is like, you know, just bizarre world for for them, right? But we really look at it and ask them to track their time not only for work their, their their billable hours, but also all the times in between and the time after hours, their time at home, and really look at that for one or two weeks. And you start to realize all of the little things that creep into your, your day, your night, your weekend. And you see patterns of you know, I just think I’m horribly overworked and work never ends. But you see Why work is never ending, right? Because you’re not running your your payroll or bookkeeping, in the middle of the day, on a Tuesday afternoon, right you’re doing, you’re ending up doing that after hours, you’re ending up doing that kind of administrative stuff. And because things fall into those inopportune times, if you can imagine, only doing business development at night, or on weekends, right, but only doing these things that that really provide the, the key to your success at less than optimal times, you know, you you end up painting yourself into kind of a corner. So when you look at this and you and you realize all of your time and where it goes and how much time you need to spend with your family and how much time you get to do things you’re passionate about. And you look at that holistically. That’s where you really start to identify the things that are that are derailing you.


Jordan Ostroff  [15:57]

legalese marketing is not your traditional marketing vendor. Instead, we’re a true fractional cmo that helps you save time and spend your money the right way to build a practice of your dreams. We help through the entire process, from customizing your intake system to driving leads, and even getting more reviews afterwards, schedule your free call at legalese



Hi, I’m Steph from Moneypenny. We’re trusted by leading law firms and attorneys to answer calls virtually professionally and brilliantly. Our high tech receptionist service enables us to route calls to your team’s wherever they’re working. And even recognize and prioritize calls based on whether they’re a repeat caller, a new clients or a VIP. Claim your exclusive partner rates and Free Trial by quoting Fretzin. Today,


Steve Fretzin  [16:48]

I think once you realize that you have a need for admin help you have a need for marketing help, etc. Or even legal work that can be done that’s under your paygrade. Right, because you’re doing stuff as a partner or as a solo that, you know, you know, a paralegal can do, you know, blindfolded. So, I mean, I had one guy, we tracked he had two hours of time a day making copies. He’s an estate planning attorney, I mean, two hours a day of copying things and stapling things and doing all that I was like, that’s an extra week, a month, you have to spend on other things, if you can delegate that. And he did and made a big difference. The other concern lawyers have though, is let’s say they identify a bunch of things to delegate, then they have to go through the rigmarole and the horror, I guess, of of trying to find someone to do it. I think that’s the biggest barrier that many attorneys have is they don’t want to take the time they’ve been down that path, it’s just finding the right talent, and maybe they just don’t understand their options. They just think they have to hire someone full time and then put them on a W two and take care of their benefits. And things have changed so much. There’s so many options. Can you talk to that?


Keith Sbiral  [17:58]

Sure. And just as a as a segue or bridge from what we were just talking about, I I really think it’s important as well to not only think about the things that have to do with work, right? Sometimes, especially if you’re a big firm, you’re trying to make partner and you’re you’re doing these things that that are really critical to your success. Sometimes it is beneficial to just hire someone to help you, you know, your own personal assistant. Yeah. And that can be that can be really transfer, transformational for people. But to find that person. You know, it’s, it’s one of those things where 10 years ago, it would have been a completely different game. But today, as we sit here, the world has become a virtual world. And so even if you’re not working virtually even if your firm isn’t working virtually, there are so many jobs and tasks that can be done virtually, with the technology that’s available today. So you could literally have a virtual assistant that’s in the same timezone as you working in Guatemala or, you know, some other offshore place doing work at a fraction of the cost and an equal amount of talent, degreed, smart folks who are doing that stuff now, you can also find folks right here in the United States that are that are running virtual assistant companies that will just because of the nature of you know, the efficiencies that they can create are so much more reasonable and on task than then you can imagine even five years ago, and I think one of the key issues there is that the support that you have, isn’t like you said a W two employee that has sick days and has life and has everything else you have As a bench of people that you can rely on, now, that isn’t going to help the individual who who’s making copies for two hours a day, right? Because there are some limitations to virtual. But there are also local options and contract options that you can pursue. And there, even now, as we sit here in 2022, there are more people who are looking for that type of employment than ever before. So you know, the options are plentiful.


Steve Fretzin  [20:34]

Yeah. And then I think the other piece of it is the fear of arts. Now I have these options, and I get them, right. There’s virtual assistants, there’s full time virtual assistants, there’s in person, there’s all these different elements. And there’s recruiters and there’s all these different companies that do virtual paralegals and whatnot. And then the question is, how do I qualify that person, like, whether it’s an interview, whether it’s checking references, like, I’m afraid of getting taken for a ride that’s happened ever I had a woman steal from me 10 over $10,000, back when I, you know, had had an office and in Deerfield, and she ended up doing a year in Cook County, but like, my trust was broken, my heart was broken, my trust was broken. And it was hard for me to kind of get back on the horse and start hiring an assistant again, I needed one. But I had to do it. And I was like, Oh, my God, but I learned from that experience, that I need to dot i’s and cross T’s and all that. But for the lawyers who are hesitant to make that move, what are some things that they can do to help qualify someone and make sure that they’re a good fit?


Keith Sbiral  [21:39]

Well, there’s all the standard things, right, there’s the background checks, and, and all of the things that you can do to you know, formally protect yourself. But it is a matter of building trust, you know, it is a matter of, you know, you have to get to that point where it is somebody that you’re trusting, it is a relationship, it is built on that trust. And a lot of a lot of what we’re talking about here is dealing with that authority and how you do that over time, right. So I’ll just move into this and start touching on this because I think it’s it’s really critical, once you have that person, where we get tripped up so often in delegation is that you have to delegate with authority. Okay, so you can’t just say here, go do that. You have to let that person know what the parameters are. Otherwise, they end up being stuck and just spinning their wheels, because either they don’t want to disappoint you. And so they don’t make forward progress. Or they go ahead and make a decision that you didn’t want him to make. And then that breaks that that trust. And there’s that failure there. Right. And that’s where so many people get to get stuck, I delegated a task, it came back to me wrong. Well, if you if you start to look at that, as a, you know, do a little bit of a root cause analysis, why did it come back to you wrong? Typically, it comes down to authority. So we talked about five levels of authority, right? And they and they kind of build upon each other. So level one is do as I say, Yeah, so you’re delegating to someone. And it means do exactly what I’ve asked you to do, don’t deviate from the instructions. Don’t think I’ve told you exactly what I want. Now, if you say go make 100 copies, and they come back with 115 copies, it’s very clear, right? Well, you made 15 extra copies. So black and white, easy to easy to fix, easy to identify. Once that level one, do it I say an hour, you know, delegation is successful, then you can move to level two, research and report. So this means that you’re willing to let that person go, research topic, gather information, and then come back to you with what decisions need to be made. And you will tell them which way to go. So a little bit more information, they’re a little bit less time on your side, and a little bit more work on their side, then you move to research and recommend. So they’re going, they’re looking at the project. They’re doing the research, they’re figuring out what the options are, and they’re recommending to you what the best option is. So real


Steve Fretzin  [24:16]

quick before before you go on. So what just as an example, that assistant is trying to find a A writer for articles that are marketing person, they’re looking, they’re looking to research something on the legal side, they go out and do that research, they come back with an actual recommendation. Look, I talked to four people here are the best three, your best two or best one. And so that’s the level of authority that person’s getting is is actually making the recommendations that you would then know that they did their work,


Keith Sbiral  [24:45]

right and a level three, you’d still make the decision right? So the difference there would be level two, you would probably do the the interview, you would probably do the call reach out call, you know they would give you a list of possibilities. Yeah. So Once you get to that point where you’re comfortable with their, their research and the recommendations, and things are things are going along pretty well, then we move to level four, which is kind of deciding and informing, right? So they go out, they do the research, they realize what the recommended options should be, they choose that option, and they let you know they’ve chosen that option. So keeping along with this might be it might be a little bit difficult to imagine that but they’ve they’ve chosen a vendor to do the work that you need done. And then you trust them at that point. Okay, so this is obviously happening over a period of time. And then level five is kind of acting independently, right? So here’s the project, I need this marketing stuff done, do whatever it is, you do, figure it out, make it happen, you have my full support. And here’s the thing is, this is really critical and pretty exciting. So often, we think delegation is level five, acting independently, I need this done, go do it, and come back and meet my expectations when it’s done. I didn’t tell you what the expectations were, I didn’t tell you. So it isn’t necessarily always about training, always, we always hear by the time I train them to do it. That isn’t what it’s about, it’s about meeting your expectations. And for that to happen, you have to set your expectations appropriately. And so if you take the time to go through these levels, and build that trust with the other person, you eventually get to that point where, you know, they think like you, you know, you’ve always you’ve heard these people say, Oh, my, my executive assistant thinks exactly like I do, I used to have an executive assistant that was was that way I would have pretty confidently said she would make the same decision I would make in almost any aspect of of the work I was doing. And that grows out of the levels of authority. And over time. And and as trust is built,


Steve Fretzin  [27:03]

I mean, I’ll add, I’ll add a little to level two and three, because this has been something that lawyers come to me with on a pretty regular basis. And just just again, to add a little bit to it. Something I’ve recommended lawyers do is come up with a checklist. So you’re giving away a brief to an associate or to a paralegal to someone else under you, and it’s coming back wrong. And then you have to reread the whole thing you have to redo the whole thing was like that was sort of a waste of time giving them that they screwed it up, I’m not going to do that again. And that’s that’s a misstep a mistake, right? Because you’re missing out on that, that ability to help somebody to take that delegation and then execute and, and be successful with it. So what I’ve recommended is to actually write up a checklist. So that brief needs to come back in with perfect grammar, that brief needs to be, you know, researched, and it needs to be there’s four or five things that that brief needs that needs things that need to happen to it before it comes back to me. Right. So are we level two or three with that? Maybe Keith? Right.


Keith Sbiral  [28:00]

Yeah, I mean, I think That’s level two. And then the amount of the key is is, you know, you’re at level three, when your person comes to you and says, You know what, I think we need to add these two things to the checklist. There you go. Because because I do them every time, and they’re not on there. And if someday I’m not here, you know, and you start to build that that relationship and that in that process.


Steve Fretzin  [28:21]

But But think about it this way too, like if you’re telling you if there’s a checklist that says don’t turn this brief back into me, until this checklist is completed and signed off on and you turn it back into me and it’s loaded with grammatical errors, it’s loaded with inconsistencies, and I have to redo it. What does that say about that associate? What does that say about that person you’re delegating to? You know, not everybody is is, you know, is it the same, you know, ilk as far as their abilities and their competency and their consistency. So it also might help us identify who’s on delegate able to, and maybe move them to a no, or move them to a firing situation or take them off your plate because they’re the ones making your life better, even when you’ve given them that level of authority and the help that they need to get things to you the right way.


Keith Sbiral  [29:05]

And sometimes, and that’s the reality of you know, any, any business any, any place, there’s folks working together, right, and sometimes you have the wrong fit. Yeah. And it doesn’t, it doesn’t mean they’re a bad person, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person, it means that it’s not the right fit, right? They’re gonna Excel somewhere at some point. And so you know, you want to make sure that you’re providing the training and you’re providing the tools that they need, but at the same time you want to identify when something isn’t working.


Steve Fretzin  [29:36]

Yeah. So Keith, lots of great information and takeaways for lawyers listening who are who are anxious to delegate interested in delegating and just don’t have the steps. I think we’ve covered a lot of ground on that point. Let’s move on to our last segment of the show called Game Changing books and you’ve got a game changing book. I believe it’s called rest. You want to talk about that for a moment.


Keith Sbiral  [29:56]

Yes, so the book is rest and The author’s name is Alex, Sue John, Kim Aang. And you can, you can literally find that on Amazon just by just by typing in rest, rather than trying to type that whole name. But you know, the the premise behind this is really that we are wired, many people are wired to just keep going and going and going. And we were as a batch, right, we’re, oh, I only have to sleep for four hours a night, you’ve heard people who live under this. And the reality is, is it’s not healthy, and they’re not working at their most efficient, it just isn’t the science behind it proves it and, and what the author goes through in this book is really how you have to have good rest in order to be at your most productive, and how you can transform how you’re approaching your life and your goals and everything that goes into that if you really do recharge your batteries when you need to. So it’s it’s a critical thing. And we do it in all the professional type positions, whether you’re a doctor or a lawyer or engineer, we see this kind of burnout, we see a lot of talk of burnout, we see the psychological problems that come with it, we see, you know, the, the the negative aspects of what comes from these notions that we should be working 24 hours a day, seven days a week now. And rest, it’s really critical.


Steve Fretzin  [31:28]

Alright guys, Game Changing book. And, Keith, if people want to reach out to you and Amy about your business, and how you help attorneys, you know, build teams and really, you know, take over their practices, what’s the best way for them to reach you?


Keith Sbiral  [31:41]

Email Our website is And you can contact us on there as well. And that’s really the easiest way.


Steve Fretzin  [31:51]

Awesome, man. Well, thanks for being a guest. And now you’ll tell Amy, I said, I think we’re going to have her on the show soon, too.


Keith Sbiral  [31:56]

I will. And yes, I believe she’s coming up on her second time as well. All right,


Steve Fretzin  [32:01]

well, we’re listening, we’re rounding a corner with the show I look, if I again, I have someone that talks on one subject and can talk on another that’s going to be valuable to my audience. That’s the key. And you guys are top of the list. So much appreciated. All right. Thank you. And hey, everybody, thanks for spending some time with Keith. And today. As usual, I’ve got my page notes, talking about what’s delegate double, how do you track your time, how to qualify who can do the work for you? What’s the authority level, I mean, the list goes on and on of the things we covered today. Your goal or from listening to the show. In addition, hopefully having a good time is to take away something take away something that you can do something that’s actionable, that’s tactical that can change the way you’re running your law firm and continue to get better and be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. That’s what it’s all about everybody. Listen, be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [32:55]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes