Ken Crutchfield: Technology, Relationships, and the Future of Your Law Firm

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ken Crutchfield discuss:

  • Thinking about the client first in building and growing your firm.
  • The intersection between technology and relationships.
  • Bringing in new talent to your firm (then retaining them).
  • Looking to the future and understanding what your firm needs.

Key Takeaways:

  • There is pressure on clients to be better, faster, and cheaper. You get to decide how your firm helps your clients to reach their goals.
  • Keep a pulse and check in with your clients. You can’t just rest on your laurels and assume they will stay with you.
  • There is a tension between the desire for more transparency in billing, as well as more flat fees.
  • Understanding the generational differences between your lawyers is extremely important to bringing in and retaining employees.

“If you aren’t mining and looking for talent in all places, you’re not going to have the talent pool that you need to be successful.” —  Ken Crutchfield

Connect with Ken Crutchfield:  




Future Ready Lawyer Survey:

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

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Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



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Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Ken Crutchfield


Ken Crutchfield  [00:00]

In this last survey, I believe 24% If I’m not mistaken of all law departments, we’re going to consider switching counsel in some situations in terms of their outside vendors. So and that was nearly double what it was in the year prior. So that’s another area where the pandemic has impacted the relationship between law firm and client.


Narrator  [00:27]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:50]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. This is Steve Fretzin. And this is my announcer voice if you’ve never heard him announced his voice, this is what it sounds like. I’m just kidding. So listen, it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and every single episode, my goal is to bring you value as a listener so that you can pick up tips, tricks, ideas, information, that maybe you’re just not getting on the streets, in your local area, or from your home office, wherever you are today. And today is no different. I’ve got an amazing guest today, I’m going to say a quote of the day, and then we’re going to talk about it for a moment, then I’m going to introduce him in more detail. So the quote of the day is control your own destiny, or someone else will. That’s a Jack Welch quote. And it’s really makes sense for our topic today, because we’re going to be talking about the future. But I am a big fan of controlling destiny. And my father, the retired lawyer, Larry, the lawyer told me, Son, if if I can give you any advice in your life, it’s to make sure that you run your own business, or run your own career, do something that you love all of those things. And God bless him. But I did. And I love every day that I get to work with lawyers and get that make a difference in the community. And can just tell helped me out when you hear that, quote, control your own destiny or someone else will what does that make you think of? Or what does that mean to you?


Ken Crutchfield  [02:08]

I think it’s a great quote, I think one of the biggest challenges with that is understanding what you can control and what you can’t control. So that’s where I often go. And I think people tend to be more skewed towards not realizing that there are ways that they can influence or control things that are going on around them. So I think that’s that’s my my first and foremost takeaway from that quote is, is being discerning and trying to understand what you’re what you’re doing, and where you can control because you’re beating yourself up against the wall if you’re trying to influence or move something that’s never going to move.


Steve Fretzin  [02:42]

Yeah. And that’s that’s the conversation I have everyday with my wife who worries about everything that she can’t control drives me up the wall. God bless her too. But we’re talking with Ken Crutchfield. He’s the VP and GM at Walters. klore, legal and regulatory us. And he has written some amazing, amazing information and pieces on the future of legal the current legal community and what’s going on. So we’ve got a lot to cover today. But can you do me a favor and just go back and give a little bit of your background for my audience?


Ken Crutchfield  [03:12]

Sure, Steve, thank you. It’s great to be here. I started my career actually at LexisNexis. Back in the 80s, I was getting my electrical engineering degree of all things at that time. And through the years, I’ve had the good fortune of managing five different businesses from the p&l perspective, that have been on the intersection of technology and content most all of my career. And so it’s given me a lot of opportunity to think about how to innovate to be different, and how to focus on growth within businesses. I spent 17 years in tax and accounting, and just rejoined the legal marketplace in the last couple of years. So some things are very familiar. Other things are, you know, a nice contrast from what I was doing, but gives me the opportunity to leverage learning.


Steve Fretzin  [04:04]

Yeah, and you wrote just an amazing report called The Future Ready lawyer survey. And can you just take a moment to talk about about writing that and what that’s what that is? What’s included in that in that piece?


Ken Crutchfield  [04:17]

Sure. Well, first, I have to say there’s a ton of people behind that so I can’t take credit.


Steve Fretzin  [04:22]

I was gonna give your credit for the whole thing. Okay.


Ken Crutchfield  [04:26]

But I do get to be the face of it sometimes. So the Wolters Kluwer future ready lawyer survey, especially the moving beyond the pandemic. This was the third year that we’ve done this survey. It is a survey that is more global. So we had nine European countries plus the US involved in the survey. We surveyed corporate legal departments and attorneys and law firms. And we pulled together the the respondents which has over 700 individuals and basically looked at it compared it year over year, and there’s a lot of very interest Think things that have played out this year, specifically the global pandemic, you know, just I think like with Amazon, where people have found that, you know, the trend of buying online and doing more shopping in the 21st century, also affects the practice of law. So whether it was having to learn how to use Zoom, or to be able to work remotely, or maybe not rely on your print periodical until average, something that was digital, those sorts of things have played out significantly in the last year. And that was something that showed up significantly in the survey itself.


Steve Fretzin  [05:34]

Yeah, so let’s go through that a bit in let’s talk, I don’t know if it’s three to five, or I don’t have a specific number that we have to cover. But as far as the like, the main takeaways that would impact the lawyer like I’m mostly dealing with private lawyers and private practice, although that maybe there’s some GCS out there listening. But, you know, there’s a lot of things that impact, you know, attorneys, big firms and small, and I’d love to hear some of the some of the key takeaways that you feel would would most impact them?


Ken Crutchfield  [06:02]

Sure. Well, I think the first thing is starting with clients and understanding, thinking client first, clients are under a lot of pressure, you know, the better, faster, cheaper, especially if you’re a public company are trying to compete with public companies, you have to do things with greater productivity all the time. And I think within the law department, the law, the term department oftentimes was off to the side, this mysterious group, but it’s s. s law firms start to advise and say, You got to have control over all your suppliers, all your vendors, everybody’s go to a firm to certain attestations, about your policies, it becomes very clear that law firms are part of that in the corporate legal department are too. So there’s some very interesting dynamics there that I think are putting pressure on the law department itself. And the law department is, you know, being asked to conform with technologies that are maybe being pushed in advance by the IT department, or just to be more productive in general. So I think that’s a very important thing is to understand there is pressure on clients to be better, faster and cheaper.


Steve Fretzin  [07:05]

And that doesn’t necessarily mean that that the clients are looking for a more transactional relationship versus a more personal relationship with a lawyer or law firm. Is that big? I mean, what do you think about that? Because obviously, you know, you know, securement departments and other groups, you know, they’re not buying a pen or they’re not buying a desk, when they hire a law firm. They they need the expertise of that firm. So is our Is it is it is it pressure, but but maybe just to a degree because they don’t want to lose the relationships or the or the value of, of the lawyers that do the work?


Ken Crutchfield  [07:37]

I think I think it’s a great question. I think one of the key points that came out in the survey was 91%, of corporate legal departments plan to ask their outside counsel, about the technology that they use. So it’s not just about the relationship. And it’s not just about what is being delivered, but how things are being delivered to. So I think that there there’s a need for law firms and attorneys and legal professionals to think more holistically about what they’re doing, where their relationship may have, had won the day in the past, and the ability to navigate that you have a lot of different things and factors there, both the technology and the productivity aspects. But also is I see this more in large, corporate legal departments that need to go through an RFP, they need to have procurement involved, to be able to have sign offs that go beyond the individual relationship, you’re you’re you’re conducting business with an entity with a vendor, and that may diminish, but not eliminate the role of individual relationships and advice.


Steve Fretzin  [08:41]

Yeah, and that really makes it tough on business development. Because, you know, when you’re dealing with, you know, blind RFPs, or limited contact RFPs very difficult to build a relationship and really share, you know, ask questions and learn more deeply what the needs are of the client, you’re sort of just responding to the words on a page. And I think that’s a real that’s it’s almost like a double edged sword a bit because, you know, you may not be able to, you might be answering their questions, but you’re not really learning about the client and their needs, maybe to the same degree.


Ken Crutchfield  [09:12]

Right. I think that’s, I think it’s a great observation. Because in some ways, when you go to an arm’s length RFP process, you kind of undermine the ability for a law firm to understand enough to be able to effectively bid or to deliver the services that you’re trying to contract for. And that’s, I think, a general challenge with procurement processes in general. And I think that’s a great reason why relationships are so key and being able to have relationships outside of the specific engagements that you’re working on, so that you have a pulse on what’s going on with that client. That’s, I think, a very key component and knowing all the places that you can find information about your client that may not be readily available and just spending a little bit extra time with that.


Steve Fretzin  [09:56]

And I would also add that that the importance of building that client loyalty now could help avoid the disaster later, in the sense of if you’re have a social relationship with your GC and their company, if you have, you’ve referred them business or contacts, you’ve you’ve gone above and beyond what the basic level of good work and fair pricing or whatever it might be, what the old myth of client loyalty is that the step up that needs to happen is to exceed expectations on a variety of levels that might help to avoid some of the potential RFPs and transactions that could could could come


Ken Crutchfield  [10:33]

your way. Right. Today, commodity work is more or less lends itself towards getting alternatives and understanding and, and having price be a significant driver. But I think where you’re talking about bespoke legal advice and issues, you know, it’s who’s been there done that, who do we trust to give understanding, and then the intangibles of relationship, I think play very well there. I think one point that I would make, Steve is that, in this last survey, I believe, 24%, if I’m not mistaken, of all law departments, we’re going to consider switching counsel in some situations, in terms of their outside vendors. So and that was nearly double what it was in the year prior. So that’s another area where the pandemic has impacted the relationship between law firm and client. So I think, you know, it’s important to understand there’s probably business to be had, for those that are looking to grow their practices. But it’s also don’t don’t rest on your lawyer laurels either. If you are, have a long standing relationship, it’s good to check in and make sure that you understand what is important to your client and keep a pulse on that.


Steve Fretzin  [11:47]

Yeah, I’ve heard at one time I’ve heard it a dozen, that, you know, listen, that company already has a law firm or lawyer. So they aren’t going to need me there or they’re, they’re already set. They’re not, you know, why bother contacting them, because they’ve already got somebody? Well, look, if if one out of four, or maybe even more than that are open to taking a meeting based on a strong recommendation from someone they trust, you have a chance you have a real opportunity to to bring in business with mid market and large companies, if 24% are are open to possibly moving. So I think it’s a big misstep for lawyers to just assume that that you know that that company has a lawyer, they you know, they’re if they want to change, they’ll reach out to me. Well, no, I think there’s got to be some proactivity there, because the stats demonstrate that the opportunity there is there. Agreed. Now, so what’s another another key takeaway from the future ready lawyer survey that that was put together?


Ken Crutchfield  [12:44]

Well, one thing is we we categorize and were able to identify technology leaders versus organizations that were basically on par with their peers versus ones that were lagging. And technology leaders were more prepared, and were able to more seamlessly move to remote work. 46% of the technology leaders were very prepared to support clients remotely when the pandemic began compared to 20%, of transitioning, and 8%, of what we call trailing are the ones that were more lagging. So I think there were some interesting points there. The other thing, and I don’t have the number right in front of me here, but there was a correlation with profitability, too. So the more technology and bracing and technology mature, a law firm was in the survey, the more profitable they were, or the more likely they were to be profitable.


Steve Fretzin  [13:35]

Yeah, and I think what they’re looking for, you know, companies are looking for that efficiency, and they’re looking to get things done quicker, faster, better. And without the right technology that’s very difficult to do. You’re you’re doing things in, you know, back in the 1980s. So we’ve got it, you know, people so law firms have to step up. Yeah. Are there particular types of technology that are that are more important than others as it relates to those efficiencies?


Ken Crutchfield  [14:00]

You know, I think you’ve got the baseline of connectivity that I think everybody kind of had to solve for. So the zoom, the teams, the different ways of connecting, I think collaboration software is more and more important. And I think that’s one of the other things that came out in the study is, clients would like more collaboration. And so having the ability to use SharePoint or collaborate on documents online, I think is a key thing. But I would really say that looking at what your pain points are, what are the problems in your firm that you want to solve for, is really where I advise and suggest you start, because it’s easy to get wrapped up in technology for technology’s sake, or the latest buzzword because, you know, if you don’t have AI in your product, you’re you’re probably, you know, not not following the trends if nothing else, and I think AI is a buzzword, that means a lot of things to a lot of people and it may be just the same thing that was in the past. like 10 years ago, is now repackaged in AI. So I think, you know, focusing and making sure that one is not getting into the weeds of technology just for technology’s sake. But really looking at where your priorities are, what outcomes would you like to see for your firm or for your client would be really the places to focus?


Steve Fretzin  [15:23]

Yeah. And I think another thing I picked up from your report was the use of alternative fee arrangements and how law firms are getting creative with how they bill and how they how they work with organizations. Can you talk to that?


Ken Crutchfield  [15:38]

Sure. So I think that’s that’s an area that they came up I’ll share with an A Conversation with an industry leader recently. That I think is a very insightful piece, which is alternate theory, arrangements actually run counter to one of the other parts of the the survey, which is the desire for transparency and knowing how you’re doing work. So when you go to an alternate fee arrangement or a fixed bid, you just get the work product delivered to you and you get a bill, for the price that you did you lose the visibility of what the hour by hour attorney by Attorney work was being done. And so I think that’s an interesting tension that we should be watching is how do you provide both transparency, but also predictability and billing that gets out of the the billable hour, because I think the billable hour is one of those things. It’s just part of the practice of law. And it’s hard to get away from that. So I think that’s that’s a very intriguing piece, because in the back in the day used to be well, I had to save time, I can’t do this. Well, now there’s competition that I think has pushed that down. So you have to be productive to a certain degree, to be able to recover the fees and be competitive for business.


Steve Fretzin  [16:53]

Yeah, and I have a number of clients that are doing the alternative fee arrangements or flat fees. And I think they’re what they’re what I’m hearing is that their clients love it, because of the consistency of not getting a bill then you go oh my god, you know, that bill is three, four times what I thought it was going to be, I know it’s 1000 a month, or I know what that the number is every month, and I can get everything done for that number. So I think there’s probably a number of pros and cons. And it may also be based on the size of the matter the size of the


Ken Crutchfield  [17:23]

of the client. Agreed. I think there’s also a component of just understanding what is what is your client really asking? Because sometimes they say, Can you do it for less money. And that may not be what they mean, they may be negotiating, they may be looking for value in a different way. So understanding what is really prompting, the request may give you the ability to reduce the scope or, you know, go to an alternate fee arrangement in in a particular way that meets the need of the customer. Because sometimes we do this in our own personal lives where we go in and we’re either looking to haggle because we we need to optically, you know, for our spouse to know that we’re being responsible with their money, there are other things that are going on sometimes and understanding those needs and the softer issues is a real important skill. Because sometimes, you know, some lawyers have got the personality of being very detailed and literal. And you know, being able to balance that is is important.


Steve Fretzin  [18:24]

Yeah. So is the I’ve got one more question for you around around the report and about what’s going on in the future of legal. Is there one more point in the in the survey that you want to cover? Before we get to my my final question, maybe you’re going to hit it and then I’ll blow up my whole idea here. But


Ken Crutchfield  [18:42]

I think the one thing that I would say is that while there’s going to be increased investment in technology, attorneys believe that and there’s an expectation, especially by clients, the preparedness, the understanding of what technology do I pick, how is technology going to that benefit me is one of the other key gaps that surfaces here is there’s a lot of pressure and desire to improve using technology. But knowing exactly how that’s gonna work over the next few years is still a bit of a mystery. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [19:16]

I actually lied, I have two more points that I wanted to ask you about. And these are both in recent news reports that have come out and one of them is around the non lawyer owned law firms. So Arizona, Utah and other states that are going to soon follow and I’m already hearing people from Illinois saying it’ll never happen here. Well, that’s, you know, we’ll see. But, you know, that’s very interesting. And you know, to have a competitor like Google or to have a competitor like Deloitte, you know, you know, just you know that they have unlimited resources, competing or even people like me and other legal marketers that were doing marketing for other law firms. Now they’re able to do it, you know, for their own firm if they set one up. What are your thoughts? on that, and what what are you seeing there? You know, I


Ken Crutchfield  [20:02]

will, I can’t really speculate on how the laws and regulations will change to expand. But I would say that, without that, the delights of the world, the the big four in particular, are going to bring technology and approaches into the marketplace that are more productive. This is upside for them. And let’s not forget that these large accounting firms have relationships with the CFO, and the CFO tends to have more pole than the chief legal officer. So they have relationships, getting back to the relationship point that are very important. As matter of fact, for my experience, being in tax and accounting, you run into situations where, you know, if an audit firm says, sorry, but your financials are a little weak in this area, you’re going to have to fix that, that becomes a board level issue. And all of a sudden, it’s tracked by the audit committee and pushed down in their initiatives that flow. And all of a sudden, you know, money is no longer an object. So I think, being very wary and understanding that the accounting firms are much more technology oriented, they all have technology practices for productivity improvement, and are leveraging technologies like robotic process automation, that aren’t used as much in law firms.


Steve Fretzin  [21:22]

Yeah, so it’s gonna get it’s gonna get real interesting in the next number of years, as it relates to how that how that plays out. The other in maybe our final point that I want to cover with you, is the another report that came out, and we think we’ve been talking about this for years, and we’ll see how things change. But the diversity, equity inclusion, that some of the big companies, corporations are saying, Look, if you’re not, you know, staffing our matters with with people in diverse areas, then, you know, we want to take our business elsewhere. So what’s what’s your take on based on your survey? And based on what’s coming out in the reports around Dei?


Ken Crutchfield  [21:59]

Well, I think that one thing I hit on the DI, D, and I think in just a second, but I think, you know, talent is a real challenge. And we read that everywhere. You don’t have to go past your local paper or local website to understand how challenging it is just to find good help to fill a restaurant or to meet the needs in general. And you know, that’s playing out in law firms too. So attracting talent is very key. And one of the things that I think could be a safety valve with some of that is embracing technology, making sure that you can do more with the people that you have and not burn people out. I think that’s got to be very, very key. So that’s kind of foundational to this. But I think it also sets up the conversation around diversity and inclusion. Because if you aren’t mining and looking for talent in all places, you’re not going to have the talent pool that you need to be successful. That’s just kind of a table stakes. Plus, you have going back to the RFP component, you know, all these corporations are looking and struggling to find talent to. And they also recognize the societal aspects of, you know, inclusion, and they have policies that they want to conform to and that they have to conform to in many situations, even the SEC is requiring disclosures are discussing that. And I think the NASDAQ’s actually said, you know, we are going to require ESG disclosures. So there’s, there’s a whole movement there that is going to continue to play out and it’s the right thing. So I think from that standpoint, firms have got to start to think about how do I become more like my client in a lot of different ways. And that’s going to start with who who is staffing engagements?


Steve Fretzin  [23:45]

Yeah. And I think it’s a bit of a potential culture shift that needs to occur within the firms that have been sort of the good old boys, or they’ve been acting like the Wild West, just shooting up in the air there. They’re not looking at the culture. They’re not looking at at the way they stack the way that they build their teams, and how they appreciate their people and demonstrate appreciation. And I think there’s a big misstep in in firms not really seeing what’s coming up the pipe on that.


Ken Crutchfield  [24:15]

Yeah, I’d say one thing to add there is it’s one thing to acquire talent, it’s another thing to retain talent. So I wouldn’t go celebrate the victory of you know, being able to stop and adjust the new hire mixed in terms of what what the inclusiveness is of that group until you’ve been able to demonstrate that you are able to retain that talent to


Steve Fretzin  [24:41]

Yeah, the smartest managing partners and executive committees today are their meeting about how do we appreciate our people? How do we give bonuses, how do we give things that are meaningful to them? It isn’t always money. Sometimes it’s just saying Great job or it’s asking how can I help you with your job? How can I help you know make your life Next better. And I think that’s that those are things that need to happen on a more regular basis. And I know the clients I, you know, I work on, I put together some roundtables for managing partners and for equity partners and such. And they’re having this conversation pretty regularly, because they’re so concerned about, look, if they lose producer or they lose a great lawyer, I mean, that could really set them back because many of these firms are 4060 people. And when you lose a key player, I mean, then who’s doing that work? And how’s that going to get filled? And what’s the timeframe to get it replaced?


Ken Crutchfield  [25:30]

Right, I think understanding the generational differences to have you know, baby boomer to millennial to Gen Z is really important. I remember I’ll pick a tax and accounting example, used to work, grind, grind, grind to become a partner. And an accounting firm, same thing happens in law firms or other professional organizations. And there was a point about 10 years ago where people were getting to that point, and you used to be able to just dump work on the associates below you. And the millennials started enter. And they’re like, I don’t want this. I’m not sure I want to be a partner. And you find partners, you know, working at three in the morning and realizing what’s wrong here. I worked all this this time to be able to get into a place where I didn’t have to do this. So I think it’s important to think through those sorts of dynamics in terms of what do the next generation want, because they do have more options, more more money is moving in house and corporate legal departments and more work, especially the repeatable work, as opposed to the bespoke work is going to continue to flow in house or to alternative legal service providers.


Steve Fretzin  [26:37]

Yeah, a lot of great information here, Ken, and I really appreciate it. We’re going to wrap up with the three best of and you are in Alexandria, Virginia, correct? Yes. All right. Awesome. So before we get into your favorite restaurant, and stuff like that, you know, give us a little like 32nd history lesson on Alexandria, because as we talked about pre pre interview, it’s got quite a quite an amazing history.


Ken Crutchfield  [27:02]

Yeah, so Alexandria was actually George Washington’s hometown. He had mountain burnin, but he would come into Alexandria, he actually planted out the survey the town, that’s just the beginning of the, you know, kind of the modern history of Alexandria was here before DC. I think I mentioned that everything from the War of 1812, where, you know, they Alexandria had sent their militia to Baltimore and then ended up having to surrender the town to the British during the War of 1812. The French and Indian War was planned by General Braddock in Alexandria, the first casualties of the Civil War, were in Alexandria and Alexandria, was occupied by the Union troops, the entire history there. There’s a rich history there. And it plays also into a lot of the civil rights movement, starting in 1939, with a library protests and a number of other things that have been very early in progressive. So it’s a very interesting and cool place to live. And I’m very fortunate to live here.


Steve Fretzin  [28:05]

Yeah, so I’m going to come to DC at some point in the next year, or a year or two years, my son missed his eighth grade Washington DC trip. So we’re going to be coming out your way at some point. And let’s say I’m treating for dinner and I’m going to take you out for a nice meal. Where are we going? Where are we, you know,


Ken Crutchfield  [28:21]

I love Landini is that’s on King Street, which is the main drag but there’s a lot of development on the waterfront too. So it kind of depends if you’re looking for waterfront ambiance as opposed to 240 year old warehouse to eat in or outside on the patio there I would I would probably go to vole was or two, eight is on the river, which is a new, a new one that just opened up in a brand new development on the river as they’re revitalizing the waterfront.


Steve Fretzin  [28:50]

Very cool. Very cool. And what there’s a lot of historical elements there. And I know you just mentioned it, but is there one thing that I would have to see in visit if I’m whether it’s for historical purposes, or maybe again, it’s just you know, a beauty of the land, what would be the one thing I’d have to say?


Ken Crutchfield  [29:07]

I’m going to give to one is there’s a little known there’s two sites, one in Philadelphia and one in Alexandria, which is the Tomb of the Unknown Revolutionary War soldier. So that’s a little cortisol at history that’s just off to the side. The other thing would, would be, there’s a Manumission tour, which is basically a history of African American history that tells the story that is often told, and there are a number of very poignant African American history lessons to be learned in Alexandria.


Steve Fretzin  [29:39]

Very cool, very cool. And what are the locals into what are you doing for fun recreation etc, and others around you to kind of keep busy, keep active and then kind of enjoy that joy the area?


Ken Crutchfield  [29:50]

Sure so I we picked we moved from Montclair, New Jersey. And so when we moved and became empty nesters for real we decided we wanted to walk place where we didn’t have to get into a car but every other week, so we do a tremendous amount of walking. And there’s 160 restaurants within, you know, 25 minute walk of where we live. So food and walking, I would say are the things that are very common around you have


Steve Fretzin  [30:15]

two of my favorite things, my wife and I just love to walk and especially walking around towns and areas. And we live in an area where where we can walk around our neighborhood, but not to get to the town not to get to restaurants and stuff that that we’d love to do. So I love it. And that’s just wonderful. Well, listen, Ken, this has been incredibly educational informational. I just appreciate you being on the show and sharing your wisdom and your insights. I think there’s a lot of great insights that lawyers need to hear. And so I just thank you so much.


Ken Crutchfield  [30:45]

Thank you, Steve. It’s a pleasure being here.


Steve Fretzin  [30:47]

If people want to get in touch with you or read more of the things that you write how to what are the best ways for them to find you?


Ken Crutchfield  [30:53]

Sure. So LinkedIn is always a way to connect with me to to look we can certainly post the Walters cooler future ready lawyer survey. I think when you drop the podcast maybe or come up with a way they’re also very willing to take email, a candid Crutchfield at Wolters


Steve Fretzin  [31:12]

Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, thanks again. Hey, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Ken and I today if you didn’t get a couple of good ideas or some insights that maybe you didn’t realize were going on then then you were you were sleep sleeping through the episode again. Thanks again, man. I really appreciate it. Hey, thank you, Steve. I really appreciate it too. Yeah, and everybody take care of be well be safe, and we’ll see you again soon.


Narrator  [31:39]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes