Keri Sicard: Building Your Law Practice Within Your Dream Life

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Keri Sicard discuss:

  • Creating a truly virtual IP firm.
  • Pitfalls of the current law firm model.
  • Promoting collaboration (even through a commission model).
  • Connecting and building culture in a virtual environment.

Key Takeaways:

  • The partnership law model was created in the early part of the 1900s. The world has shifted drastically in the last 100 years, but the law industry has not.
  • Breaking the traditional law model format allows you to increase the attorneys take home from each of the cases.
  • There are ways to connect and be together as a team without being in the same place and in the same office.
  • Find your own happiness. That will look different for everyone, so don’t take your cues based on what someone else finds joy and fulfillment in.

“There are more people, like me, that don’t care about being partner. They just don’t want to have to work their life away. I would go five days in a row without seeing my kids when they were two, four, and six. And I don’t ever want anyone to have to ever do that.” —  Keri Sicard

Episode References: 


Book: Unfu*k Yourself: Get Out of Your Head and Into Your Life by Gary John Bishop

Connect with Keri Sicard:  




Thank you to our Sponsors!

Legalese Marketing:


Practice Panther:

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

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Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Narrator, Steve Fretzin, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther, Keri Sicard


Keri Sicard  [00:00]

There are more people like me that don’t care about being partner. They just don’t want to have to work their life away. I would go five days in a row without seeing my kids when they were two, four and six, and I don’t ever want anyone to have to ever do that.


Narrator  [00:19]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:42]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. Hope you’re having a lovely day. Today. I am Steve Fretzin, as you know, the host of the show. And this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, which is someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker, and there’s so many different ways to be successful as a lawyer, today’s also a lot of different ways to kind of fail and flop and flounder. But we don’t focus on those as much as we do about like giving you tips and ideas and ways of making improvements so that you can live the best possible life as an attorney that you can. And so, you know, obviously my job is to continue to try to bring interesting new guests that you’re going to learn something creative from and hear a different perspective. And I’ve got Kerry waiting in the wings. And she’s going to, you know, perform today and kind of give you a whole different angle on on what she decided to do as a lawyer to run her firm. How’re you doing, Carrie?


Keri Sicard  [01:33]

Hi, I’m doing great. Thanks for having me.


Steve Fretzin  [01:35]

Yeah, the kids today. Awesome. And we’ve got some wonderful sponsors of this show, be that lawyer including practice Panther money, Penny and legalese. You can hear their commercials coming up soon. Don’t fast forward, listen to them, because there’s giveaways and things that they’re doing for you, the be that lawyer audience. So check that out. We’re going to start off with the quote of the show. And this is a Henry Ford, whether you think you can or you think you can’t, you are right. So Carrie, why, first of all, welcome to the show. Good to see you again.


Keri Sicard  [02:07]

Thanks for having me.


Steve Fretzin  [02:08]

And why? What’s that quote mean to you? What’s the what’s what’s your thoughts on it?


Keri Sicard  [02:13]

I think the biggest reason why I love that quote so much is that your mindset really can make such a big difference in your success. And you really need to believe in yourself, especially as an entrepreneur and as a business owner. And as a lawyer, the whole world is telling you that you can’t. And I think you need to believe that you can. Because when you think you can’t, you just spend so much time and energy and effort on the reasons why. And if you just put that energy into the I can do this, you’ll make it happen.


Steve Fretzin  [02:50]

I’ll tell you something funny, my best friend, when I decided to leave the business I was in and go and start my own, you know, coaching business, and I kind of ran it by him looking for support. Looking for you the man you can do he’s like, I don’t think it’s a good idea. And he went on to explain why he thought it was in this was you know, during, you know, those before recession, but it was like, you know, you’ve experienced in this, you know, this, that the other. And it’s just so funny to occasionally bring that up to him because things have obviously worked out pretty well. And I was successful the first year I did it, but it was just, I just love to kind of pick it him about it. But you know it but I think what your quote is it’s more about Yeah, there could be some negative forces around you. But you have to have the right mindset, you have to know that you can do something and go after something. And then if you tell yourself, you can do it and try I mean, the thing is, even if you fail and you try at least you you tried, you know most people don’t try to do something different and be there, you know, go for something. So I think that’s a really great quote, and I appreciate you sharing that. So Carrie, you’ve got an interesting story and background, I’d love you to give kind of a Reader’s Digest version so my audience can sort of understand where you’re coming from and your area of practice but more importantly, like your background and legal leading up to running your own you’re the founder of virtual IP law, which is a very unique in case you guys wanted to carry see card. They mentioned Karis last name, but you’ve got a very unique firm that you’ve developed. And we’re going to spend some time on the show talking about that, but give us your background.


Keri Sicard  [04:22]

Yeah, sure. So I am a second generation patent attorney. My dad also is a patent attorney. And I just loved that he was always learning about something new, always working from home, which was unheard of back in the 80s and 90s. So I grew up watching him have all kinds of really cool inventions. And I just was hooked. I’m probably the only 15 year old that knew what I wanted to do for the next 10 years of my life, for better or worse, but I’m really fortunate that I found my passion at a young age and I knew I love patents. So I got a Bachelor of Science in Electrical and Computer Engineering. And then I went on to law school, I worked at small boutique firms, I was fortunate to work on many different areas of technology. So I know a little bit of about far too many things. And I’ve worked for the large firms, right down to having a five to seven hour a day commute. Most of the law firms I worked at were of traditional partnership model. And it just never really was the right fit for me. So fast forward through to the middle of the pandemic, I was laid off due to the pandemic, as unfortunately many people were and six months in, I said, I’ve just got to do something. And so I put my so to speak shingle up, as many people do, and I give a lot of credit to my dad, he said, I just don’t think the world is going to go back, unfortunately, for better or worse to a pre pandemic status. And so he said, make a virtual firm. And my first thought will, there are many firms that have people that work from home, but to be a truly virtual firm, that’s going to be a challenge. And I said, Well, I’m just I can do this. And I started with nothing but my 401k. And I had no clients, and my dad, and we put a website together. And two years later, we have seven attorneys for support staff, everyone works from home, and our home base is a co working space. So it’s been arrived for sure.


Steve Fretzin  [06:32]

So where would your be that lawyer tipping point B, would that be the fact that you know, the pandemic hitting or is it’s there’s some other point,


Keri Sicard  [06:41]

I would say it was a combination of the pandemic hitting, being laid off from that traditional partnership model and realizing that just at any moment, everything could just go away. And one problem with that particular firm was they had one really big client. And so when that one client went away, so did the large amount of their work. And so I just realized that there has to be one a better way of serving your clients to a better way of operating your firm. And three, a better way of making sure that all of your eggs, you know, are not in one basket, so to speak. So I tried to hire find a firm, nobody was hiring the first six months of the pandemic. So I guess, after spending that time searching for what I was looking for, I just realized that I can’t find it, I’ll have to create it. And even if it’s just for myself, to have this virtual presence, and to be able to serve smaller clients, and to not have all of my eggs in one basket, you know, just make that work myself. And I’ll never forget, someone said to me, Well, what if it doesn’t work? And coming back to that mindset, I just looked at them. And I said, it’s gonna work. You know, there’s, that’s not an option for me, I have this work, and I will do whatever it takes.


Steve Fretzin  [08:09]

Yeah, but it’s, you know, it’s interesting. You spend your career helping people develop their patents and their ideas and how they’re going to be then you came up with your own and then you did it.


Keri Sicard  [08:20]

I did. And the irony of that is that I don’t want to protect it, because I want to share it with everyone. And I’m actually not even sure if the business model I have is patentable. But even if it were there, I wouldn’t want to exclude anyone else from using it. I share it very freely, because it still is a lot of work to make


Steve Fretzin  [08:42]

it work. Yeah, just because somebody knows how you don’t you tell them how to do so right? It’s like, hey, everybody go out do business development, doesn’t mean you can just go out and do it. Right. There’s a lot that goes into learning and executing on business development, running your own firm, anything that you want to become an expert at or that you need that you want to execute on. It’s tough. But kudos. So let’s go back a little bit and talk about what are some of the pitfalls of the current law firm model? And I think the the pandemic has kind of brought some of those to the surface, but let’s maybe maybe create a small list of, from your perspective, the issues with that existing model.


Keri Sicard  [09:22]

Yeah, there are so many that are


Steve Fretzin  [09:25]

gonna need a longer show Fretzin


Keri Sicard  [09:27]

We need a nine hour segment. So I will start with the honestly, I think the biggest problem is just that it hasn’t changed. The partnership model was created in the 1900s. I mean, and I’m talking like the third Angley 1900s. But it’s the early 1900s of this idea you’re talking 100 years ago. How many industries right? Think of if doctors operated the same way on the same principles that were established in the early dentists marketing. We are literally lawyers and financial, the financial industry are the only ones that have not changed in 100 years. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [10:15]

but what is it because of that? What are the problems that exist in that current model that most people find themselves in.


Keri Sicard  [10:23]

So they’re stuck in the we need to be in a building, we need to all work together, we need to have this high overhead. We need to, it forces you to do so many things by being stuck in that mentality of we do it this way. Because it’s the way it’s always been done. Right. And I can’t tell you how many times I heard that as a young associate, and you would just try to make little tweaks and little changes. I mean, yes, I loved having a beautiful office in downtown Boston, it overlooks the harbor, it was wonderful. It took me on average, 30 hours a week, to get there, and back home. Yeah. And that’s just crazy. And on top of that, I had this insane amount of hours, I was supposed to Bill. Every year, it was the last year that I worked in Boston, which was a little over, it was actually almost 10 years ago, I was expected to bill a half a million a year. And I saw less than a third of that ratio, because there it goes to the partners, thirds goes to the overhead third goes to me if I’m lucky. And the other the the problem with that is that our rate goes up every year, which is good, you work harder, your rate should increase, you should be rewarded for the extra time, all the experience. The problem, though, is that the clients, for the most part, have flat fees. So now, you’ve compounded a high overhead with high hours with a higher rate with flat fees. So now you can’t, you still have to put the time in. So either you’re producing a less quality product, or you’re writing off time. And you still can only bill so much for that one item. So now you have to work even harder to meet those hourly requirements. And it’s just as you know, inflation happens and clients aren’t gonna go Oh, yes, you know what, you can charge me $2,000 more per patent. Now that sounds awesome. Because I know you have to raise your rates, that just doesn’t happen. So it’s this big snowball effect? That is not winning for anyone. And I could go on and on. But no,


Steve Fretzin  [12:50]

I think I think I guess you’re right, that and I think what this pandemic is brought to the surface is how a efficient people can be working from home, be that you don’t need to have the big overhead that you used to have, in fact, you can go down to, you know, almost not nothing, but you know, doesn’t have to be, you know, 10,000 a month or anything like that, or, you know, firms, obviously doing millions a month or whatever it might be for them if depending on the size. So, and then there’s the other piece of it is the, you know, the way that it works with associate to partner or partner to equity, you know, and just all the layers and levels, and that’s not, you know, made for everybody, right, I think in some instances that, you know, the rich, like, you know, just life in general, the rich get richer, and you know, the worker bees do the work. And, again, not everybody’s, you know, loving that model. Some people it works great, and other people, you know, mad so much. So let’s talk about what you sort of figured out to come up with an alternative model? How does that work? And then we’ll go through pros and cons and talk about some other more in depth pieces, but maybe just share with us kind of what your model is, and why it works.


Keri Sicard  [14:05]

So I would say it is the opposite of the traditional partnership model rather than having you have a building and it costs you a certain amount. So you know that you have this overhead that you have to meet so and you have a salary you have to provide people because they have this high hourly requirement. It seemed it always just seemed backwards to me, you know, why do we have to have this high require you have this high requirement to satisfy this high overhead to satisfy these high salaries. You’re stressed out as an employee because you’re trying or an associate you’re trying to make these high requirements. You’re super stressed out as a partner or the owner because you’re trying to bring all of this work in to keep all of these people busy and oh my gosh, if you use lose one client, you know, I don’t even need to get into the suicide rates and such attorneys it’s very high because it is such a stressful job is in and of itself, like, let’s take, it is so stressful alone, we don’t need to add all the stresses of high overhead and high billable requirements and all of this stuff. So I really worked backwards. The first attorney I took on, I had one patent application to give her and I told her, I would give her a percentage of whatever we could bill for it. I had just enough to keep myself busy. And I had a little bit extra on my plate. And she said, Okay, great, because I don’t really want to work a lot. She had got flat out burnt out, she was in house for 14 years at a very large company working 14 hour days, they wouldn’t even let her leave early on Fridays type of thing. And so she came back from an 18 month sabbatical, and said, I want to work a little bit, I don’t want to work a lot. Perfect. I will give you a laptop. I’ve won patents to give you, you’re expected to bring in the rest yourself. I’ll give you a generous percentage. I’ve been told numerous times I can’t give 50% of my attorneys get at least 50% Knock on wood. It’s been two years so far. And because traditional partnerships, you could only give 30 Maybe 40 If you’re lucky. And so easy. Bring her on. I thought okay, let’s put an ad on and see, you know, who else would be interested in this? And literally, it’s, I thought, this is a hard sell. I’m gonna hear crickets, right.


Steve Fretzin  [16:29]

It’s like you’re paying them on commission. It’s like here, people that are used to salary bonuses and everything. It’s, you know, the benefits everything that goes with it. And you’re like, hey, I’ll pay you on commission. If you you know, if you take this work, I’ll give you x if you bring in work, I’ll give you x.


Keri Sicard  [16:44]

It’s almost laughable, right? I was literally, I just went ahead and did it, I put it up there. I do have incentives, if it’s their own client, they get an extra percentage, if another attorney does the work, they get an extra percentage so that it really promotes people collecting together. If you handed off your work, you’re not gonna get nothing, you’re still gonna get a piece of it. And I put the posting app in January of 2021. It was very vague. And every person I talked to it was not a salaried position. Many people were very offended. And I’m sorry, if I offended any of you. It’s okay you partnerships are your jam, they’re not my jam. It’s okay. A lot of people were very offended. It’s not a partnership, I will likely have work for you. But I want your expectation to be nothing I don’t want you to like because I don’t want you to be disappointed. Your expectation is to bring in your own work. I have a CMO I have a paralegal I have a now I now have a COO of a virtual assistant. They will help you with all of this stuff. But you need to bring in your own work. I just shut the posting down in seven days. I had so many applicants I was just blown away just blown away. At there are more people like me that don’t care about being partner. They just don’t want to have to work their life away. I would go five days in a row without seeing my kids when they were two, four and six. And I don’t ever want anyone to have to ever do that. Did


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Steve Fretzin  [19:42]

Well, it goes back to what I think a lot of us learned in the pandemic which is you know the importance of quality of life, the importance of family the importance of health. And, again, you know, the idea that someone’s going to bill 1500 2000 plus hours in a year makes very difficult To, you know, to do that and have that maybe the same balance that someone else can have that wants to give that the other pieces of life, you know, the lion’s share of the of the focus. So I’m happy that you got that result and, you know, continue to share, like what happened next.


Keri Sicard  [20:18]

And I just have to caveat I’ve recently heard some firms are at 3000 hours now. It’s just crazy. So So what happened is I ended up hiring four attorneys in two months, which was quick. It was wonderful. My payroll quadruples from one month to the next. So I put a big time out on hiring to get a little bit of cash flow coming back in be, you know, it’ll come back in, but it takes time growing a business that was still only a year and a half, and that my payroll quadrupled in one month. So I did take on a CEO this summer, she helped us with all of that. And I took on one more attorney in June. So we’re now up to seven attorneys. We are in we have two in New Hampshire, one in Rhode Island, one in Virginia, one in Florida, and one in North Carolina. I think I got everyone I have a patent agent in New Mexico. My co is in Florida. That yeah, so we’re we’re spread out.


Steve Fretzin  [21:27]

Yeah. Okay. So how does it work? Then? Are they ever brought together as a team for meetings? Is it all separate to they know each other? Have you ever had like had them all come together? Like in person to meet and kind of how did you manage that?


Keri Sicard  [21:42]

Yes, so the best thing I ever did, which I should have done much sooner is we have a weekly call every Thursday at noon, everyone jumps on, I tell people that family and client come family and client matters come first. So that always trumps the Thursday meeting unless it’s something important, I’ll send out an email. And I do bi weekly check ins with each of my employees or my attorneys and employees, it’s just 15 minutes every other week, but just to give a check in. And we do have a summer outing where everyone comes together once a year. So some people find it totally wild that everyone I’m hired, except for my first attorney. I’ve had not met in person at all, I actually met most of them at the summer outing, which was pretty interesting. But yeah, it’s it’s been really great.


Steve Fretzin  [22:32]

And then is there because the push backs gonna be the, you know, you’re looking to build something here and how do you maintain good culture? When things are virtual? That’s going to be a minute I know there’s a lot of people doing this this you know, work from home and coming into the office, you know, randomly or rarely and, and then the firm’s are struggling with how to make sure they keep a positive culture. What how do you how are you kind of finessing around that or leaning into it.


Keri Sicard  [23:02]

It’s something that I’m trying to figure out as well, because it is definitely that is the biggest challenge as a virtual firm, having our weekly calls actually does a pretty good job of keeping everyone together. We also try to have at least one virtual event every once a month could be a cooking class, trivia, wine, tasting coffee, tasting just once a month where we all get together for something fun, that’s not related to our job. I think you just have to think outside the box and take what you would do in a traditional building and just make it virtual. I get asked a lot of questions that I kind of chuckle at. My favorite is how do you communicate with your whole team? And my responses? How do you communicate with your whole team? And they say, well by email, really wow. And, you know, one of my attorneys when he started, he said, this, this is truthfully a challenge for me because I can’t just pop into your office. And I said, you know, I understand. But the truth is, even if we were next door to each other, the likelihood of me being available is pretty slim. We’re both very busy. So just do me a favor and replace that hopping into the office with a call


Steve Fretzin  [24:17]

or text. Yeah. And schedule, just schedule schedule, schedule time with me. You know, like I have the auto scheduler and everybody you know, you scheduling this podcast and every client I have knows they can pop into my calendar, look for a gap, pull it together and just like walking into my office except I’m not being interrupted.


Keri Sicard  [24:35]

Yes. And you have to be okay with that. I have. I have talked with a few business owners who they’ll say to me, how are you okay with something just popping up on my calendar. But you’re spending five emails going back and forth to make that happen? I’ve literally had six or seven Calendly events pop up since this morning. Just Because I send out my link, and it happens, and it just makes it so much easier. So I think you just, you have to think outside the box a little bit. But you also have to make sure you’re checking in on your people. Are you doing okay? Is everyone all right? I, those weekly meetings, never start out with work. That’s always How’s everyone’s week going? Did you guys do anything fun this week? I did this, how’s the weather? You know, we’re all over the place, right? Ending those two minutes really makes a big difference. Got it? Well,


Steve Fretzin  [25:35]

listen, it’s I think, important for people to sort of listen to this and recognize that there’s a lot of different models, big firms, small, firm, virtual, non virtual, solo, non solo, etc. And that one of the things that you want to consider is, are you happy? And are you engaging in internal politicking that eats up your day and your mind at night? And you can’t sleep? Are you? You know, working off of one big Rainmaker, who’s bringing it all in? And that’s how your life is based? And if that changes or alters or slows? How are you impacted? Right, so I’m, you know, obviously, you know, carry on a huge, you know, build your own client base, as the control element and the security blanket for every attorney. And not everybody’s gonna buy into that. But I think as we continue to get more advanced in, in understanding what makes you successful in law, business development, autonomy, happiness, they all kind of play a role. So how do you talk about? How did you How are you finding your happiness? And how are you seeing other people with alternative models like this finding their happiness?


Keri Sicard  [26:50]

Definitely, by having the flexibility to work as little or as much as they want, I would say is the biggest key to their happiness, I have an attorney that will work her butt off for six months in a row, and then she just wants to be off the grid for six weeks. And she absolutely loves that. And I think you just need to find your own happiness. What do you like doing? What do you enjoy doing? Maybe being partner sounds perfect to you? Maybe that is something that you really want? And maybe it’s something that you don’t you just need to find whatever makes you happy? Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [27:26]

no doubt. So for people that are listening to this, that are interested in copying your model, or doing something similar, maybe they’re already doing it, but not maybe it’s you know them on their own versus them, adding multiple people. And you mentioned, like taking care of payroll, and that’s probably your biggest expense. But then you also mentioned it’s based on their billing hours on the work that’s coming in. So how does that are you paying? Are you paying people a drawers? How are you? What’s the setup? And then how do people mirror your model? If you’re willing to give that away?


Keri Sicard  [27:56]

Yeah, absolutely. So I started by paying people well in advance of the invoices going out. And that was sometimes a challenge, because I didn’t know if something was billed or not. So now I’ve transitioned to basically the bills go out, or all all the invoices have everyone’s time in it for one month. And we try to get all the invoices together within 10 days, and everyone is paid on the 15th. So I will so I know. So I’m taking the risk of paying everyone before I get paid, but I think I’m not sure if anyone would buy in, if I if they were taking that risk, that’s a tough risk that I don’t think I should be putting on my associate. So that is, the biggest con for me is that I have to, you know, pay them before I get paid. And sometimes there’s a 30 to 60 or even 90 day lag, that’s where it comes in.


Steve Fretzin  [28:55]

But if you have if you’re in a type of law practice where you know, you’re dealing with maybe difficult people or you’re not, you know, getting paid, you know, on time or not, or you just don’t know if they’re going to like it’s they owe you 50 grand, and you’re lucky if you get 10 That kind of practice, that might be tricky for them to pull that off, I think you probably have more consistent payers, or you have some system set up to make sure that it gets paid. Like I have everybody that works with me on ACH and auto and like I have almost no collections at all, like I have one client right now that I’ve got to have a conversation with. But that’s that’s it everyone else is really. So is that maybe specific to your area of practice that makes that easy.


Keri Sicard  [29:39]

Perhaps the other thing that I really am trying to be better about is getting retainers up front, especially if it’s a new client because that will help to, to stay ahead of it. That’s one of the biggest mistakes I made in the beginning was not getting sufficient retainer funds. And I do think my model would actually We work better for people, maybe in trusts and estates where you can get your money upfront, because then you’re going to be getting your money, the attorney is going to be doing the work right away. So you actually wouldn’t have the lag and cashflow problem that I have.


Steve Fretzin  [30:17]

Right. And I liked the idea of getting the retainer. And I think there are other people that are trying to set up flat fee models, where they get paid 2000 5000 10,000 a month on a regular basis. And that also would, you know, help with the cash flow. But also,


Keri Sicard  [30:31]

I’m not sure if you use law pay, but they I use law pay for my credit card transactions, and they just recently, it’s coming out in December, it’s client credit, where the client can actually apply for credit through law pay, and you get paid from law pay, and then law pay deals with the client.


Steve Fretzin  [30:48]

Okay. Wow, that’s nice, good information. Yeah, it was really interesting. Carrie, if people want to get in touch with you to learn more about your model, or maybe get involved with you around your model, what’s the best way for them to reach you,


Keri Sicard  [31:00]

please reach out to me on LinkedIn, I will chat with anyone or if you go to my website, virtual IP, there should be a link on there for a 15 minute consultation. Or you can reach out to me via email, which is also on my LinkedIn.


Steve Fretzin  [31:16]

Yeah, and all that’s in the show notes, too. So the in the game changing book of the show is go Arza go, I was gonna say go after yourself. It’s on f yourself. With the full word in the book, I think being used. Talk about why do you feel like that’s such an important book for people to pick up? And what did it kind of mean to you?


Keri Sicard  [31:36]

It all comes back to that mindset piece. I love that book so much that I’ve actually read it twice. And it’s literally just about getting out of your head, and just shutting off all that head trash and getting into your life. And one of the favorite, my favorite passages of the book is, I want you to walk up to a set of train tracks and pretend that your life and you look all the way to the left and all the way to the right. And there are moments that you think are so such a big deal, that when you look, take a step back and look at your life, in that perspective, they’re just so minuscule. And how you’ve come so far in your life, and you still have so far to go and how to just get out of your head of oh my gosh, I spilled my coffee. This was the worst thing that’s ever happened to me. Yeah. All right, I spilled my coffee move on. So I just, I can’t recommend that book enough. If you struggle at all, with that inner voice telling you you can’t do it. Tell it to go eff itself.


Steve Fretzin  [32:40]

Well, Carrie, thank you so much for being on the show. And now he’s sharing, you know, your wisdom, but your story and also kind of how you took a real chance. Whether you’re forced into it or not, you still took a risk to build something and create something that is unique in the marketplace and even more so that you’re willing to share that model with others that that may say, You know what, I’m a solo. I never even thought I could do what you did and get three, four or five people from it. And I can have that as a as a way of generating more wealth and more business and helping more people. So really, really, kudos to you on that.


Keri Sicard  [33:13]

Yeah, thank you. The only thing I will say is be prepared for two years of 16 hour days.


Steve Fretzin  [33:20]

That starting a business, I don’t care what it is any business, any business you got. That’s what the beauty of being an entrepreneur, you put the time in and invest in it. And but I think the king, right, and it’s also about making less mistakes as you go again, if you can learn from someone like you, from me and from other people that have done it, and been successful at something that can really shave a lot of years off of that learning curve. So I think that’s an important point just to make sure you don’t you might be on your own. But that doesn’t mean you have to be by yourself. Yes, absolutely. All right. Well, thank you. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Carrie and I today hopefully you got a couple of good thoughts and takeaways. And this might be something for you to consider. If you’re not, you know, I know no one’s 100% happy but if you’re less than, you know, you put the percentage in front of it happy. You may want to consider a note another way to be that lawyer and a different model as someone who’s confident organized to the skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody, be safe, be well, and we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [34:22]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes