Kerry Barrett: Secrets to Being Camera Ready for Lawyers

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kerry Barrett discuss:

  • Being on camera is a requirement – make it work for you.
  • Public speaking and having a camera presence.
  • Tips to do better with camera media content and presence.
  • Performing and speaking to engage your audience.

Key Takeaways:

  • When speaking to a group, in person, or on camera, you do not want to fall into legal speak. You need to speak to who your audience (or client) is in a way that they understand.
  • Look at the camera, not at your screen. It gives a connection with the audience that appears you’re looking directly at them.
  • Your voice is what creates the connection. Make sure you use your voice to repeatedly bring the audience in.
  • Preparation is key in your webinars. Know what your purpose is, know what your goal is, and keep your audience engaged from start to finish.

“You want to have a very specific agenda, you want to have very specific language, and you want to recognize that people tune out if you look like you don’t have a specific purpose, or frankly, if you’re boring.” —  Kerry Barrett

Join our interactive webinar, “Quality Over Quantity: Attracting More Qualified Clients” on June 11th, and secure your spot today! Sign up now at

Thank you to our Sponsors!


Get Staffed Up:

Green Cardigan Marketing:

Episode References: 

Connect with Kerry Barrett:  


The Kerry Barrett Show Podcast:







Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everyone, listen up real quick. Before we begin the show, I’d like to present my Be That Lawyer Challenge. If you’ve ever wondered how much more you could be making as an attorney, I challenge you to meet with me for 30 minutes to discuss your law firm. If I’m unable to identify ways to bring in more business for you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for our time together.

[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: I’m just that confident. Go to Fretzin. com to accept this challenge and hope to meet you soon.

[00:00:29] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:51] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey, everybody. Welcome back to another fun, exciting. Entertaining, I hope episode of Be That Lawyer. This show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. We’re going to do it together twice a week, every week, until you are or you decide to hire me as your coach.

[00:01:09] Steve Fretzin: One of the two is going to happen. One of the two. But regardless, I want to make sure that you guys are getting value from these shows, and so I really am working diligently to find the best guests, the people that I can interview and have great conversations with to bring you the goods and the things that are going to help you to excel in your career.

[00:01:27] Steve Fretzin: Today is no different. I’ve got Kerry waiting in the wings. How’s it going, Kerry? 

[00:01:31] Kerry Barret: It’s fantastic. I’m super excited to be here. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:34] Steve Fretzin: Yes. I’m absolutely thrilled to be here as well. And we’re going to have some fun always, as we do, starting off with our quote of the show. Now you gave me two quotes, one that was from someone else.

[00:01:44] Steve Fretzin: And then one that was for you. And I immediately said, I want the one that’s from you. I enjoy when people write good quotes. I have Bretson isms that I’ve been putting out on LinkedIn that are kind of fun. Where I just think of something right, hopefully I’m not stealing it, but this is yours. It’s speaking on camera is the new public speaking.

[00:02:02] Steve Fretzin: And so a welcome to the show and be, tell us a little bit about that quote. 

[00:02:06] Kerry Barret: Well, you, you asked for quotes from, I think it was like celebrities or well known people. And I’m like, I, I, I like my quote, but I’m, I’m not a celebrity. I may be sort of well known in certain circles. So I hedged a little bit and I give you a quote from somebody else, but thank you for choosing mine.

[00:02:23] Kerry Barret: And you’re right. I agree with this wholeheartedly. In fact, I’m, I’m, I’m sort of bullish on this particular quote because. As you know, as business owners and lawyers and executives, We all, I think, sort of have an idea of why understanding how to speak in front of a live audience is important. What many of us haven’t done is make the transition to the sort of virtual stage.

[00:02:48] Kerry Barret: And while the skills are conceptually similar, they don’t always overlap in a, in a, Easy to understand sort of way. So, you know, for example, having a stage being able to read the audience that doesn’t translate to being on camera and if we’re fully leveraging the opportunities that virtual platforms offer us or the way that we can speak on social or leverage media opportunities, for example, we have to understand that being on camera is important.

[00:03:23] Kerry Barret: Is part and parcel of that and it’s no longer in my opinion, if you want to fully actualize and if you want your business goals to materialize, it’s no longer a nice to have. It’s not a negotiable. It’s something that you need to have. 

[00:03:38] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I’m on, I’m on camera. I’m on zoom literally all day. And so I do get up in front of live audiences.

[00:03:46] Steve Fretzin: I still enjoy that. I still enjoy the interaction. But I feel like I’ve really become very comfortable in front of the camera running groups and, and doing things on, online, but I’m, but the other side of it is I’m interviewing people, I’m networking, I’m talking with prospective clients and new clients and all that.

[00:04:03] Steve Fretzin: And I’m watching how they’re behaving on camera and it’s disturbing in some instances because they’re not even looking anywhere near the camera. They’ve got, you know, their, their information over here, their camera over there. Yeah. And they’re, you know, their sound is good, their background is terrible, like it goes, the list goes on and on.

[00:04:18] Steve Fretzin: So I think we’re gonna, we’re gonna kind of dive into best practices today, but let’s, let’s go back in time and, and talk a little bit about your career because you have quite an interesting and unique career, not in legal, but in, in public speaking, in media and, and et cetera. So give us that Reader’s Digest.

[00:04:35] Kerry Barret: Well, first of all, I love what you mentioned about the fact that you’re on camera all the time because any lawyer that is watching or listening to this could be doing the same thing for themselves. They could host a podcast. They’d be the one that’s on camera. Except I, I don’t think we’re not, we’re not all perhaps natural marketers or we’re, we’re, we’re maybe very good in the courtroom, but we don’t understand how those skills translate.

[00:04:56] Kerry Barret: I appreciate you mentioning that. And yeah, my background is not illegal and I’ve been encouraged to lean into that. And so I am, but I come from a media background. Going a little bit further, even than that, back into my academic career, I started out as a veterinary medicine major. I wanted to be an animal doctor, apparently organic chemistry, sharply disagreed with that.

[00:05:22] Kerry Barret: And I had to figure out what the thing was that I was going to do next. And I hadn’t put a lot of thought into that and I hated public speaking, but I was not only terrible at it. I was terrified, but I’ve always loved storytelling. And so I re enrolled in a communications program, hoping that I would get my arms around this sort of debilitating fear that I had and.

[00:05:45] Kerry Barret: I realized as I got into it that I actually kind of enjoyed it. And so now I had to overcome this fear and I had to get good enough, not just to be able to sort of do it, but to be paid for it. And so I did, I wound up overcoming the fear and getting really good at it. To the point that I was able to leverage my skills on camera.

[00:06:05] Kerry Barret: To create a 20 year career for myself on camera as an anchor as a reporter as a producer for a short period of time and I wound up in New York City in the biggest media market in the country with a couple of Emmys under my belt and some telly awards for my on camera my on camera work. And then I was able, when I left the news business and started my own business to leverage those same skills to grow and build my business.

[00:06:32] Kerry Barret: I didn’t even have an offer when I first started, but what I did know how to do was communicate on camera. So I started creating video. I started doing virtual speaking engagements. Then the pandemic hit and things sort of. Grew from there, but now I help lawyers and executives and business owners develop those skills and then, and then fully actualize on them, like leverage them for business growth, for visibility, credibility, whatever your ultimate goal is.

[00:07:00] Kerry Barret: Let’s figure out how to leverage your ability to speak on camera to get there. 

[00:07:05] Steve Fretzin: In fact, I just saw a good friend of mine from my, from my Chicago office Alan Turkheimer was on MSNBC, as he’s a jury consultant, so he was talking a little bit about the Trump cash money trial and everything, and I saw him, I didn’t even know, you know, he was, he was gonna be, you know, it’s just like when you see a friend on TV, it’s the coolest thing.

[00:07:24] Green Cardigan Marketing: But, but, 

[00:07:26] Steve Fretzin: but I was also watching him to see like, Hey, how is he going to perform? Is he gonna, you know, really talk articulately and is he going to look a certain way and act a certain way? And of course he’s, you know, he’s he’s an expert, he’s a professional, so there was no concern there. But let me start off by just asking the basic question of why are people typically pretty bad on camera whether, and I think we’re mainly talking about Zoom at this point, and we could talk about my friend Alan and the media, but, but really on a day to day basis, it’s, it’s lawyers that are on Zooms and maybe not, not realizing they’re, they’re, they’re only going halfway with it.

[00:08:02] Kerry Barret: Yeah, and so i’ll i’ll start by saying I don’t want to pick on lawyers, but I know that that’s your audience That’s our jam 

[00:08:08] Steve Fretzin: though. 

[00:08:09] Kerry Barret: Come on. I’m gonna pick on lawyers. Absolutely 100 percent But but when I when I say this recognize that these Challenges are not entirely unique to lawyers But there is a certain set of pressures that I think do apply to a greater degree You know, there is a sense that You I think while not, again, not entirely unique to lawyers, there’s a certain sense of pressure to have all the answers all the time.

[00:08:35] Kerry Barret: And that adds an extra level of stress. There is a certain level or type of training and skill that goes into being a successful lawyer. Oftentimes your communications are adversarial. You live in the language of your expertise. So your ideal client may have. No idea really what you’re talking about when you use certain language that is, you know, as, as common as using and or the in everyday conversational speech, but as a potential client, you have no idea what it is.

[00:09:03] Kerry Barret: And I also think that there are some assumptions made when you are used to speaking in front of a live audience or you are a complete dynamo in the courtroom that that’s going to translate to a virtual space and it doesn’t always. So aside from Not understanding fully how to maybe communicate on camera and be clear this applies to social and it applies to podcasts and webinars and live streams and all of those other things.

[00:09:28] Kerry Barret: There is a tendency to fall back on your training, which means that again, you’re speaking in the language of your expertise, or you are speaking in a way that may seem evasive to a potential client because you’re speaking in a way that is, you know, very, Precise legally and is not overstepping the bounds.

[00:09:49] Kerry Barret: And so when you fall back on your training, which is in the legal field and not necessarily in a digital communication field, it doesn’t necessarily resonate with a client, and that means that there’s a lot of missed opportunities in terms of. webinars and social media video and again, live streams and podcasts and all of those other opportunities that I rattled off previously.

[00:10:12] Kerry Barret: Yeah. 

[00:10:12] Steve Fretzin: But there’s, there’s the sound aspect. There’s the visual aspect and there’s the ability to connect. and I, I think the most basic, I mean, if we’re gonna get into a bunch of ways to do it better, the most basic thing is I’m taking your image and I’m putting it as close to the camera at the top of my computer as possible.

[00:10:29] Steve Fretzin: So I can dot, or I can look at you, you know, there’s only an inch apart. So from my, from your perspective, my hope is that I’m looking at you and it looks like I’m looking at you. Right? Right. That’s the most basic thing that, that I’m not seeing ha happen enough. Is that the eye contact or the feeling of eye connection?

[00:10:51] Kerry Barret: And it’s a tricky thing to get used to. Honestly, it is. And I would say even there’s, you know, I can see that you’re looking at the camera right now. I would see sometimes depending on how big the monitor is, that somebody’s watching you on, you can sometimes even see it to that degree. And of course the, the default is you want to see somebody’s face because you were.

[00:11:14] Kerry Barret: That’s how so much of our communication is delivered. It’s via those non verbal facial expressions. And. There is some sort of non verbal, verbal elements to that as well. Pitch, pacing, tone, that sort of stuff. But we’re used to looking people in the eye. However, when we’re focused on us as the speaker, rather than the sort of end user of whatever the, But communication is we’re looking down in the monitor because we’re, we’re thinking about our communication versus the person who’s going to be watching this at the end of the production.

[00:11:52] Kerry Barret: And that is the audience. And one of the easiest ways, hands down to build a rapport with your audience is to just look in the camera. I do it because I did it for 20 years. in the news industry. I always was looking at the camera and not, I didn’t have an audience to look at. There was no monitor in front of me that showed who was watching.

[00:12:13] Kerry Barret: And so I got very used to it. If you think about though, assuming your audience is the audience, you guys listening, assuming they watch news to some degree. If you think about the way, let’s all use nightly news because NBC was my most recent stint in the news industry. If you, if you think about watching Lester Holt.

[00:12:32] Kerry Barret: At you know at six o’clock or seven o’clock or whatever it is depending on your time zone Think about how they frame that initial shot. It’s pretty close up. It’s you know, it’s it’s the way you’re framed right now That’s not happenstance It’s very intentional and the reason it’s done that way is because it allows the audience to look into his eyes Which establishes trust, rapport, and credibility.

[00:12:58] Kerry Barret: Now, yes, are, are we actually looking into his eyes? No, we’re looking at images of his eyes on the screen, but you’re looking to replicate that experience as closely as you can. When you’re speaking on camera. So the reason that they’re framed that way, at least in the beginning of the show is so that the audience can connect with that, you know, with that anchor.

[00:13:19] Kerry Barret: In this case, Lester Holt looking him in the eyes and you’re looking replicate a similar experience. Every time we show up on camera, 

[00:13:26] Steve Fretzin: here’s everything you need to know about lawmatics. Ready? They are the number one law firm automation platform in legal. They help law firms win new business, speed up intake, and boost efficiency.

[00:13:35] Steve Fretzin: They integrate smoothly with your favorite practice management tools like Clio, Smokeball, and Practice Panther. And get this, on average, Lawmatics users get 25 percent more clients, save six hours a week, and grow their revenue by at least 25 percent. Curious? I think so. Give Lawmatics a try with a 10 percent discount by going to lawmatics.

[00:13:56] Steve Fretzin: com. That’s Lawmatics, L A W M A T I C S dot com slash be that lawyer.

[00:14:08] Steve Fretzin: As you all know, finding amazing employees can be the toughest job for any law firm leader. You deserve to run the law firm you’ve always dreamed of, but you can’t get there without a great team. To get staffed up, they will help you by staffing your law firm with incredible full time, offshore executive assistants, legal assistants, marketing assistants, and much more.

[00:14:27] Steve Fretzin: The best part, they will find you a highly qualified English speaking VA based in Latin America for only a fraction of the cost. Locally at Freson, we use Get Staffed Up for Marketing Person and you know how good our marketing is. Learn slash be that lawyer 

[00:14:46] Green Cardigan Marketing: law firm owners. Are you tired of relying on referrals to grow your law firm?

[00:14:50] Green Cardigan Marketing: Have you been burned by marketing agencies who do not understand the legal industry? Hey, my name is Ashley and I’m the owner of Green Cardigan Marketing. We help law firms just like yours grow through marketing strategies that work. We track measurable data to make our decisions. We monitor your market, your competitors, and your online footprint.

[00:15:10] Green Cardigan Marketing: To schedule a call with me today to see if we can help your law firm Visit us at greencardianmarketing. com 

[00:15:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and something I found like a year ago was the hide self view on zoom And i’m not doing that now because for the podcast and video I have to leave my video on but almost every time i’m on with somebody I hide my cause i don’t need to see myself and i don’t need to get distracted by how i look or how my hair is or whatever like i’m i’m on the call let me focus all of my energy on the other person.

[00:15:44] Steve Fretzin: That’s such a critical element so what are a couple of tips that you recommend i mean outside of looking at the camera which which you know i think is important and maybe obvious as well a couple of tips that people. Could could learn from us in this podcast to do a better job on zoom or just a better job.

[00:16:02] Steve Fretzin: With any media that they’re creating where there’s a camera involved. 

[00:16:06] Kerry Barret: Yeah. One of the this doesn’t, this isn’t automatically intuitive, but one of the biggest elements is your voice. Now I know that we all assume it’s the visual because we have video and video is incredibly important when it comes to communication, especially now, but your voice actually plays a huge role.

[00:16:24] Kerry Barret: It’s why having a good microphone is important, especially if we’re doing a podcast. It’s why, because it creates a richer, more resonant sound. It sounds a little more professional. It’s not as tinny or thin or amateur sounding, but really a lot of people, even if there is a video, they’re, they’re listening, right?

[00:16:45] Kerry Barret: If they’re, I’m going to use traditional media as an you know, as an example, they’re, they’re walking past the TV or they’re getting dinner ready as they’re listening, or they’re listening to a podcast or whatever it is. And so your voice. is really what creates that connection outside of the eye contact.

[00:17:04] Kerry Barret: And again, to sort of circle back to one of the things that we spoke about earlier, it’s hard to make that connection. So how can you use your voice to repeatedly bring the audience in? It’s in the theater world, it’s called taking a Beats, right? It’s a, it’s a, it’s a pause whenever an emotion changes or a thought changes or there you’re moving in a different direction.

[00:17:31] Kerry Barret: One, one element has ended and you’re moving on to the next, but when you’re able to use your voice out, you know, beyond tone and beyond pitch and beyond pacing, but to highlight the emotion of what you’re talking about. So for example I’m thinking off the top of my head now, if you are. Looking to draw an audience in and you are using your voice to do it and you know that they’re going to, there’s a million other things that are going on and they’re going to be tuning out, being able to speak in a way that conveys that feeling or that emotion.

[00:18:10] Kerry Barret: So again, that’s pick on lawyers, but sorry, not sorry. I’m going to pick on lawyers right now. They have a tendency generally to speak in a very measured sort of I don’t want to say monotone, but it can be flat and it’s, it’s. It’s done that way intentionally when you’re in the courtroom or you’re taking a deposition or you’re talking to a potential client.

[00:18:31] Kerry Barret: It’s because you’re trying to remove the emotion out of it. That, that doesn’t work when you’re on a podcast or when you’re on social. I’m not suggesting that you go, you know, emotionally hysterical. But you have to learn to bring to move out of that sort of monotone cadence and bring the emotion in it.

[00:18:50] Kerry Barret: The secondary benefit of that is when you are communicating on camera and you’re not looking at whomever is asking you the questions, you’re looking at that little green dot and the host is doing the same thing. You are able to convey so much more by using your voice and help the host and the audience.

[00:19:12] Kerry Barret: overcome the challenge that speaking to a camera puts in front of you. 

[00:19:17] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it’s almost like we’re getting into the area of NLP neurolinguistic programming and it’s tonality, it’s pace, it’s the level of the voice, right? So people that want to, you know, you do this better than me, right? But if you wanted to get people to come in and really listen closely because you’re about to say something important, how would you do that?

[00:19:39] Kerry Barret: I’d probably take a pause. Visually, I might lean in. I probably would lower my octave a little bit, but I would create vocal variety with, and depending on what it was that I was going to say, whether it was somber or, or whether it was exciting or what it was I was talking to and who the audience is, because all of that factors in, I would, I would gauge exactly how I was going to do that based on it.

[00:20:04] Kerry Barret: The end goal, and usually it means slowing down a hair and and pausing in between certain elements and giving the audience time to digest, but you supplement that with the visuals that you would use, you know, on a stage, leaning in, smiling, eye contact, that sort of thing. 

[00:20:22] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, Carrie, I get it. And there’s something really important I want to say.

[00:20:25] Steve Fretzin: So this will, this will really resonate with everybody. So listen up carefully. And there, I just did it. All right. So yeah, it’s right. How are we pulling people in with the tone and how we’re, how we’re, you know, driving the conversation and, and really emphasizing the important things that are being said really, really great stuff.

[00:20:46] Steve Fretzin: So, so all right, so we’ve got, we’ve got the voice and the, and the tone and all of that working for us. We’re looking into the camera. We’re making eye contact with the person, sort of. And then what are a couple other things that we should be thinking about when we’re on camera? 

[00:21:00] Kerry Barret: Well, I mentioned language.

[00:21:02] Kerry Barret: Moving out of the language of your expertise. We live in it every day. My husband is a pilot. They use all sorts of acronyms. We’ve been married 22 years. There’s two of them at this point that I understand, SNAFU and FUBAR, and that’s about it. And remember that your audience is probably the same if you’re speaking to prospective clients.

[00:21:24] Kerry Barret: So be very intentional about the words that you’re choosing. It’s very easy to default. We used to use a lot of acronyms in the news industry as well. You know, VOSOT, voiceover, sound on tape package, which means a pre recorded element of Video and soundtrack, which is my voice. So when I talked to my husband about putting stories together, I would use those acronyms and then realize that he has no idea what I’m talking about.

[00:21:53] Kerry Barret: So it’s very easy to fall into that. Make sure that you’re removing yourself from the language of your expertise and using the language that your audience does, because. If you’re, if you’re putting together a 32nd social media clip, that’s not as urgent. If they’re invested in what you’re saying, they’re likely to hang around and they’ll research it if they need to.

[00:22:14] Kerry Barret: And frankly, you have less opportunity to use that kind of language in a social media clip. If you’re hosting a 60 minute webinar. And you’re using a webinar script that’s chock full of legalese, your audience is going to feel stupid, and they’re going to tune out, and even if they don’t, you’ve put an additional barrier up to them reaching out to talk to you, you’ve also gotta go.

[00:22:39] Kerry Barret: I think the other thing that again, lawyers have a tendency to do is to not recognize that when they’re in a webinar, they’re not simply deliverers of information. They’re teaching people about how to work with them, whether it’s a sales webinar or it’s a marketing webinar, or it’s a training webinar or whatever it is.

[00:22:59] Kerry Barret: You’re always teaching people about how to work with you. And so you want to have a very specific agenda. You want to have very specific language and you want to recognize that people tune out if you look like you don’t have a specific purpose, or frankly, if you’re boring, if you’re boring, they’re also out again, unless they’re incredibly invested in what you want to say, there’s a whole.

[00:23:21] Kerry Barret: Host of amazing reasons for lawyers to use webinars. And there’s a whole host of things that can go wrong when they don’t know what they’re doing, that actually diminishes their brand rather than elevates it. 

[00:23:33] Steve Fretzin: Well, and the big problem with webinars, especially these days is, you know, a lack of attention.

[00:23:39] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I have undiagnosed adult ADHD as many other people do. Yeah. Right. And the idea that I’m going to sit on a one hour webinar and watch and listen and focus and pay attention. When I have my email right here, I’ve got my phone right there. If this person that’s running, this isn’t interacting with me, connecting with me, giving me takeaways where I’m, I’m scribbling down and scrolling down notes and things that are going to help me in my career.

[00:24:07] Steve Fretzin: It’s very, very challenging to keep people’s attention today. We all have, have that issue. 

[00:24:12] Kerry Barret: 100%. It’s a huge missed opportunity for lead generation. Basically it’s what, it’s what it comes down to. 

[00:24:19] Steve Fretzin: All right. So let’s get into the webinars though, because like what I’m talking about is, is not just an issue for me.

[00:24:24] Steve Fretzin: It’s an issue for anyone that’s now being, because that’s where most of the presentations are being done now. I mean, we do like to get back to in person and there’s a lot more of that going on, but there’s still more, seemingly more webinars than live. Presentations these days. 

[00:24:38] Kerry Barret: Yeah. Well, there’s a number of reasons for it.

[00:24:40] Kerry Barret: I mean, I’m working with a client right now, a big law firm who is doing a series of webinar tours rather than speaking tours. And they’re targeting certain cities and they’re talking to people in certain cities, but they’re doing all of it virtually because frankly, if they’re done well, they’re effective.

[00:24:55] Kerry Barret: You know, if they’re done poorly, they’re not, but I’m helping them. So there you go. But it’s one to many selling sort of on steroids with reduced cost at the outset as well, because you’re not traveling, you’re not securing venues, et cetera, et cetera. And so there’s a real opportunity there to get in front of a much wider audience.

[00:25:17] Kerry Barret: then you would ordinarily doing sort of hand to hand combat or going, you know, going and speaking in person on stages. I would say the biggest mistake that most lawyers make when they are putting together a webinar is they don’t have a clear purpose. I mean, they know what they want the end result to be, but they don’t really know how they’re getting from, Hey, thank you for joining me to, you know, book a sales call or book consultation or whatever that, you know, call the action is the end.

[00:25:44] Kerry Barret: Generally the next thing is that it’s sort of overly salesy content, failing to recognize that there’s. Some teachable moments that have to happen in there. And this varies to some degree. There are nuances on the size of the firm, the type of client that they’re looking to talk to, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:26:01] Kerry Barret: But generally speaking, overly salesy is another one of the mistakes that I see on a fairly regular basis. You mentioned audience engagement. I think that’s another key. We do have these nice little polls and tools that we can use on zoom, but They’re sort of forced engagement. It’s not the same thing as being on a stage and, for example, calling out to the audience and having some real time interaction with them or, you know, asking questions, real Q& A.

[00:26:34] Kerry Barret: So that’s a tricky thing to handle as well. Technical issues, certainly. You talked about lighting and microphones. And I think then not knowing how to promote it and just sort of having an unstructured presentation, not really knowing how to get from one element to the other. I, I was listening to two lawyers the other day do a webinar and there was sort of, it was clear that they hadn’t practiced.

[00:26:58] Kerry Barret: And there was sort of these weird pauses where one would stop, but they didn’t, the other one didn’t really know if they were fully wrapped up and there would be a, and that it was sort of like one step forward, two steps back. And as the audience, I was sitting there going, come on, you could do it. I know you could do it.

[00:27:16] Kerry Barret: That’s not what you want your audience to be thinking as they’re listening to your webinar. You want them cheering you on for reasons other than like, you know, I, I think you can, I think you can. And so those, Are sort of the biggest mistakes that I see on the regular When i’m i’m watching a lawyer webinar for 

[00:27:36] Steve Fretzin: yeah, that’s all that’s all great.

[00:27:38] Steve Fretzin: And just to add to what you’re sharing I also like when, and again, for lawyers who are looking to focus on business development, yes, educate and a webinar, but maybe you’re talking about problems then solutions, maybe you’re using case studies, you’re not only demonstrating expertise, but maybe the people in the audience have those problems or know people who have those problems.

[00:28:00] Steve Fretzin: They’re hearing you talk about them, share your expertise and solving them. And then the best thing in the world is when you’re done and you get a bunch of emails or you get a bunch of people lined up to see you and want to meet you at the end of a presentation because what you said really resonated with them.

[00:28:15] Steve Fretzin: That’s ultimately why are you speaking it’s not for your health right i mean you’re there to build your brand and to get business. And we need to leverage the presentation and not only the way it’s presented, but the content to try to drive that engagement. 

[00:28:31] Kerry Barret: I love that you mentioned case studies and 100%.

[00:28:35] Kerry Barret: Those are incredibly important. I do find sometimes that when people think of case studies, they think of, I’m going to throw a lot of sort of data or statistics or whatever. I always suggest. Yes, that stuff is important, but if you can wrap it in story, the stories will sit with you. Stories, yeah, for sure.

[00:28:53] Kerry Barret: And if you find the right story for your audience, they will see themselves in it. They’ll be like, that person’s in my mind. They see what I’m struggling with. That’s my story, or there’s some element of it that I’m dealing with. And there’s an interesting thing, not to get too deep into the Brain science of it, but there’s something called neuro coupling and I’m not an expert in this but I I’ve researched it when putting my own stories together.

[00:29:20] Kerry Barret: It says when somebody is telling a story and somebody is listening and invested. Their brains neurocouple, meaning they actually start functioning on a similar wavelength and that can happen when you’re speaking on camera as well. It’s not something that only happens when you’re on a stage and in front of a live audience.

[00:29:39] Kerry Barret: And if you can create an experience, this is the engagement element. If you can create, this is how you create legitimate engagement instead of forced engagement on camera. If you can create story. And delivery style that creates that neurocoupling where your audience almost sees themselves in your story, then you’re, you’re 90 percent of the way there.

[00:30:01] Steve Fretzin: That sounds like Avatar for lawyers. There you go. Neural coupling. Really, really great stuff. Let’s wrap things up, Carrie, with your game changing podcast, and this is one I’ve heard before, but I want you to share a little bit about it and why it’s, it’s one of your favorite podcasts. It’s called Gold Diggers.

[00:30:17] Steve Fretzin: Not gold with a D. Goal, G O A L, Diggers. Talk to us a little bit about that podcast. 

[00:30:23] Kerry Barret: So it’s hosted by an entrepreneur by the name of Jenna Kutcher. And I have taken a couple of her programs. She does a lot of work on, or does a lot of programs. That teach business owners email marketing, how to build your email list, etc, etc.

[00:30:39] Kerry Barret: But she also has this podcast. It’s really sort of a, it’s almost like a workshop style business and marketing podcast. And there’s a lot of inspirational and motivational elements to it as well. But the reason I listen to it on the regular is because not only do I get very Actionable sort of step by step tips on, for example, how to grow my email list and how to how to market to it, but also how to redefine maybe even what success looked like for me or how to, you know, figure out what that bigger, you know, that That be hag as they call it, the big hairy audacious goal.

[00:31:19] Kerry Barret: What is that next be hag that I have in front of me that maybe I haven’t even looked at because I’m scared to. So there’s, there’s actionable advice and then there’s also sort of bigger picture motivation and inspiration as well. I, I, I love her and I love it. 

[00:31:34] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, everybody check that out. And as we wrap up, want to thank our sponsors, of course, law Maddox, helping you get your.

[00:31:41] Steve Fretzin: Law firm automated, especially with your marketing. We’ve got get staffed up, getting you those full time administrative folks and marketing folks to help you build your business. And of course, green cardigan marketing, check out frets and. com to see their great work, a redesign, my website, better content, better videos, etc.

[00:31:59] Steve Fretzin: And Harry, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to go either go through training or they just want to learn more about you. What are the best ways for them to reach you? 

[00:32:08] Kerry Barret: There’s two things I would suggest doing. Number one is following me on LinkedIn, Harry Barrett. And then the second is to go to my website, harrybarrett.

[00:32:18] Kerry Barret: com specifically. Carrie Barrett. com forward slash resources. And you’ll find a whole host of free resources to get you started. And then you can also, if you’re curious book, a free on camera competence strategy call, and there’s some other elements of resource in there as well, that you are more than welcome to tap into.

[00:32:38] Steve Fretzin: All right. Well, listen, how did I do today? You’re judging me every minute of this. I can tell on my camera skills. 

[00:32:44] Kerry Barret: I wasn’t watching your face at all. I was just looking at the 

[00:32:48] Steve Fretzin: camera. All right. You sounded 

[00:32:51] Kerry Barret: fantastic. 

[00:32:51] Steve Fretzin: All right. All right. Thank you. Thank you. I was just looking to get my ego stroked a little bit today.

[00:32:55] Steve Fretzin: You know, dealing with lawyers, I don’t think they compliment very easily. So neither did my lawyer father. So there you go. Listen, Carrie, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom. A lot was covered with, with, with webinars, with zooms, with voice, with image imagery and how you’re, you know, how you’re really connecting with your audience.

[00:33:16] Steve Fretzin: Really great stuff. And I just I appreciate you and maybe have you back sometime soon. 

[00:33:21] Kerry Barret: I would love to be a guest again. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to be here. 

[00:33:25] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Carrie and I today on the Be That Lawyer with Brettson podcast.

[00:33:31] Steve Fretzin: Always trying to help you be more confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe, be well, and we will talk again very soon.

[00:33:43] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Loyal, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.