In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kevin Daisey discuss:
- Crafting your product around your client, not the other way around.
- Getting unstuck from making the same mistakes.
- How a podcast can help your marketing, no matter what field you’re in.
- The secret about podcasting for lawyers.
- Everything comes back to strategy. Results and growth over time always start with strategy.
- You need to be focused, have a plan, give your marketing strategies time, and have someone who is tracking the KPIs from it. Without the data, you don’t know how to handle it, both good and bad.
- You can make anything successful if you stick to it and do it properly.
- Hosting a podcast is less work than you think if you have a great team behind you. You become a talk show host of your own, get the marketing, and get great content to repurpose.
“It’s repurposing! You and me are recording this now. We can take this and make an article out of it. We can take clips, we can do video versions, we can do audio clips – there’s so many things you can do to disperse it, and we did this recording one time.” — Kevin Daisey
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About Kevin Daisey: Kevin Daisey is a digital marketer & entrepreneur. He is the founder & CMO of Array Digital, a law firm marketing agency, and the host of The Managing Partners Podcast.
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
[00:00:00] Kevin Daisey: It’s repurposing, right? So me and you are recording this now. Obviously we can take this and make an article out of it. We can, we can take clips, we can do video versions, we can do audio clips. There’s so many things you can do to disperse
[00:00:13] Narrator: it.
[00:00:18] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
[00:00:40] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I’m Fretzin and I am just so happy and thrilled that you’re with us again today. If you’re a new listener, welcome and you know, hopefully you enjoy today’s show and go back and check out some previous episodes. As you know, as an existing listener, that this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer or someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker.
[00:01:00] Steve Fretzin: And so the goal is to, you know, continue that today with my guest, Kevin. Kevin, how you doing? I’m doing Good to have you. Good. I was on your show yesterday. Uh, at least recorded. And then you’re on my today. So this is a, a podcast swap, if you will, which is a great way to kind of like get to know somebody and also get some good marketing juice, you know, from that squeeze.
[00:01:21] Steve Fretzin: And today we’re going to really take a deep dive on some really cool subjects I’m excited about. If you’re also hearing about Bretson for the first time, I am the sales free selling lawyer coach. I work with lawyers in two ways. One is putting them through an MBA style coaching and training program.
[00:01:36] Steve Fretzin: It’s about eight months, and you learn everything you never learned in law school and how to be an absolute assassin to take control of your law practice and build the book of your dreams. Get that control and freedom with your own clients and, or more of your own clients. And then I also run four peer advisory round tables.
[00:01:52] Steve Fretzin: So if you’re feeling isolated and alone, like you’re on an island, don’t have other managing partners and law firm leaders to kind of talk with and collaborate with. Check out my website, fretson. com and look up what those peer advisory groups are all about. It’s really eyeopening to learn from other lawyers and what they’re doing and how they’re being successful and keep you sharp and accountable to achieve your goals.
[00:02:13] Steve Fretzin: And that’s all I have to say about that. Uh, Kevin, we’ve got a quote of the show, which is how we love to start, and of course, Seth Godin being, like, the master of, like, really good quotes, and so here’s the one that you submitted. Don’t find customers for your products, find products for your customers. So that’s a really good quote and kind of explain to me why that’s a, the quote of the show for you.
[00:02:35] Kevin Daisey: Sure. Yeah. See, I appreciate you having me on again. And just to quickly back you up there, what Steve was talking about with, you know, with, with how he thinks about selling and business development and peer groups, we both agree a hundred percent on that same philosophy. And selling should be selling. So talk with Steve.
[00:02:51] Kevin Daisey: I think it’s a great lesson learned for you all to reach out to him. Um, as, as we talked yesterday on our show, we had a
[00:02:58] Steve Fretzin: really, really engaging conversation about sales, free selling and better methodologies for never feeling like a salesman, which is what I think lawyers like. You know, like that might be their greatest, one of their greatest fears is like, Hey, I’m a, this very well established lawyer.
[00:03:11] Steve Fretzin: I don’t ever want to be seen as a, you know, a Chachki salesman or something like that. Right. Yeah, a hundred percent.
[00:03:16] Kevin Daisey: So we, we talked about that in detail yesterday. And, um, and so my quote, I think aligns with that too, is, you know, we try to think about, you know, a product that we’re all interested in and what we like to do and what we’re most passionate about maybe sometimes.
[00:03:33] Kevin Daisey: And, and so we come up with. You know, this product or the service, and then we hope that we can show people into it. Right. And we hope that whatever we’ve crafted is going to be good. And then we said, go sell it. And then hopefully we get people to say, Hey, this is a perfect little thing for me. And instead really understanding your customer or your client and what’s best for them.
[00:03:57] Kevin Daisey: What do they really need? What’s working for them and, and talking with them to understand their business and situation. And then you want to craft your product. Around that. And so once you can do that, then people start to show up and say, Hey, I heard about that. I need that. This person referred me the way you do.
[00:04:17] Kevin Daisey: Your business is unique. And that’s what I’m looking for. And so again, you’re, you’re not selling, you’re solving their problems and you’re, you’re coming up with a solution. That’s going to be a fit for them. And so that’s my 2 cents on that. So don’t try to
[00:04:31] Steve Fretzin: force it. Make it easy. It’s like if you build it, they will come.
[00:04:34] Steve Fretzin: And if you’re putting together the right product, the right service, you know there’s a need for it and a desire for it in the marketplace. Right. I mean, that’s, that’s the name of the game versus trying to shove a round peg in a square hole and just trying to push stuff on people that they may or may not want or need.
[00:04:50] Steve Fretzin: So I think, yeah, to your point, you know, really understanding your client persona and what you’re putting together and how that mirrors up and matches is, is critical. So Seth Godin. Pretty smart guy, right? I think he knows his stuff. Put out a couple books. I think he knows a little
[00:05:03] Kevin Daisey: more than we do, but uh.
[00:05:04] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Kevin Daisy, you are the founder of Array Digital. You are the host of the Managing Partners podcast. As uh, we mentioned, I was on your show yesterday and that’s going to be coming out soon. And that was so much fun to do and I think you and I both, again, to your point, just aligned so well in our, Philosophies of how business development should be done in a non salesy way, but is that your background and give us your background is your background in sales?
[00:05:28] Steve Fretzin: What’s your, where did you, where did you start?
[00:05:30] Kevin Daisey: Good. Yeah. Good question. So my background honestly was in, well, I went to do engineering and I did websites and design on the side. So I was just more of a graphic artist, drawing, painting, and, and I was like, well, I got to do computers with this. So I started making websites and stuff.
[00:05:49] Kevin Daisey: Well, I never thought that was a career. Uh, And so, as I’m going to engineering and working at an engineering firm and things like that, some along, somewhere along the way, I met some entrepreneurs outside of work and I was just like, whoa, these people are different. They have their own companies. Like, I want to see myself doing that.
[00:06:08] Kevin Daisey: And so I quit and started a website design company. So I became a salesman is just like a lawyer went to law school and now they find themselves a business center and a salesman and a marketing professional and all the above. Right? So I was designing websites because I like to do it and now came all the other things, managing people, growing a team, sales, all the things that you have to do.
[00:06:32] Kevin Daisey: And so I didn’t know how to sell, but I knew how to talk to people. So I’m obviously. Yeah. I can go up and talk to a wall basically. So I had that natural ability, but never had a process, never had any training. I just talk to people, listen to them. And the sales kind of came from that, but I had to establish a network.
[00:06:51] Kevin Daisey: I had to go out and try my hardest to meet people in an area I’d never lived in. So for me, it was like survival at that point. And so I just became, I guess I figured out my own way. Yeah. But as we talked the, uh, yesterday, I didn’t really have a process and it really steps to follow until the last few years.
[00:07:14] Kevin Daisey: So it was kind of the wild, wild West, you know, some sales came through, some fell apart. Didn’t really know why some, uh, you know, it just nailed it. So it’s just have to step back and say, okay, well, there’s gotta be a reason for. You know, watch some come through and some don’t, we got some bad clients that came in that we don’t even like.
[00:07:33] Kevin Daisey: So just, it took some time for me to, to really put that together at 15 years or more.
[00:07:39] Steve Fretzin: And what’s interesting, my background was in design, not backgrounds design, but then learning all the other aspects of a business. And that’s, that’s the thing, you know, a lot of lawyers that go out on their own, uh, that’s their greatest fear is like, Hey, I’m a good lawyer and I’ve got, you know, clients that adore me and think I do great work.
[00:07:55] Steve Fretzin: And now I got to go out and start my own thing and learn all these other skills. Yeah, you do. And it isn’t easy, but it’s, you know, for the ones that do it, they’re not too many that if they do it right, have any regrets. I think it’s the ones that go out and they don’t get coached. They don’t work with mentors.
[00:08:11] Steve Fretzin: They don’t have advice there. They are on an island. And I think they’re the ones who then try to figure it out on their own. They’re smart people. They’ll figure it out. And now then the timetable and the, you know, to get that, you know, managing people or, or developing, you know, your marketing or whatever.
[00:08:27] Steve Fretzin: That’s going to take three, four, five times as long if, if at all. And then it’s sort of, then it starts to turn raw. And in many cases they end up going back to a law firm with kind of their tail between their legs. So it’s the soft skills, everybody that really, you know, help to keep yourself, you know, in a good, but again, that could be when you’re at, at, at a firm or on your own, you still need to have the, you know, the, some of those skills that are learned.
[00:08:48] Kevin Daisey: Absolutely. And what I’ll say is this is 15 years or 20 years in business almost, but, and I just kind of like finally put it together. I’ve had coaches training programs. We’ve paid lots of money to go to different like, uh, seminars, hundreds of thousands of dollars that I’ve spent and a coach, a friend of mine locally.
[00:09:07] Kevin Daisey: That’s not even our coach for this stuff is more of a financial advisor for us. But he’s also a good salesperson. He’s the one that helped us really adopt the process we have now. So after all that time and money and peer groups and the measurements, it took time for us to kind of piece together our own process.
[00:09:26] Kevin Daisey: And, you know, if anyone listening can, you know, take that timeline and make it off after mine, that would be. Probably a good thing. So it took a lot of time, pain and effort and money, and it was a pretty simple solution at the end of the day that I just didn’t really see in front of me until the last few years.
[00:09:45] Steve Fretzin: Well, and that might be, that might be a good segue to, you know, the lawyers that are listening that sometimes get stuck, you know, they’re stuck with their marketing, they’re stuck on their business development, they might be stuck with a bad team. Um, and why do you see, why do you think, you know, what is the kind of primary reason or two why lawyers get stuck?
[00:10:03] Steve Fretzin: In, you know, making the same mistakes or in, in having a business that isn’t being profitable, they’re not paying themselves like what they should be making. What are your, what are kind of your, your thoughts on that?
[00:10:14] Kevin Daisey: Yeah. So the biggest thing I really do see, and I, I talk to attorneys all the time. We have 110 clients, 30 employees here with our two different agencies that we have.
[00:10:24] Kevin Daisey: So I get to talk to lawyers a lot, plus the podcast. And the main thing I see as there’s either a, there’s no. Processes and systems in place and no organization to the firm. I’m talking to a 40 attorney firm right now, whether it’s new systems, new processes, a managing partner that makes all the decisions, he’s the only equity owner, so there’s not really a lot of buy in from anyone else anyway, and it’s just kind of madness, but he’s built a big firm, right?
[00:10:52] Kevin Daisey: Probably a hundred employees, but my, but the problem I see is there’s no strategy. I bring everything back to strategy. Everyone. They’ll call me. Hey, Kevin, I need my phone ringing next week. Right? So what can you do for me? Well, for 1, we’re not a fit for you. Probably because. But by the time we do the research, collect the data by your firm, your market, and sort of build out a print plan and a strategy, you’re already unhappy because you want your firing in next week.
[00:11:21] Kevin Daisey: That’s a problem that I don’t want to have the burden of. If you want results and growth over time and a year from now, three years from now, five years from now, we’ve put you in a totally different position in your firm and your life. Then we can talk. But the problem is they’re jumping from one place to the other.
[00:11:41] Kevin Daisey: They’re trying this over here, trying this over there, and none of it’s working. And there’s no strategies. There’s no brand built into it. There’s no thought process behind it. It’s just whatever they might’ve heard or learned, they go to a marketing company like me and say, I need this. Instead of saying, Hey, you’re the expert.
[00:12:00] Kevin Daisey: Tell me what I need. And that’s, that’s the whole sales process that we’re talking about.
[00:12:04] Steve Fretzin: But it’s, but it’s also Kevin, uh, what we call random acts of marketing, right? So today I’m a speaker, tomorrow I’m writing, the next day I’m networking, I’m trying a bunch of things. None of them are really working well.
[00:12:15] Steve Fretzin: It’s a rollercoaster ride of, you know, sometimes my business is up, sometimes my business is down. And that’s where lawyers start to really get stressed out because they’re either so flush with business that they can barely keep up. Or the phone has just died and they’re not really getting anything coming in and that’s scary.
[00:12:32] Steve Fretzin: That’s scary because the money you made the first half of the year isn’t coming in the second half of the year. That’s when they’re calling you saying, Hey man, turn on the spigot and it doesn’t work like that. So the strategy you’re talking about is having an actual plan of where the food is, where the, you know, the low hanging fruit is.
[00:12:50] Steve Fretzin: And how to go out and get it.
[00:12:53] Kevin Daisey: A hundred percent. And um, and all the things that you mentioned, like where they, they do this, they write, they do that. All those things work well and they have a place, but just ad hoc and random, they’re not going to work at all. So it’s, Oh, I tried TikTok, that doesn’t work for me.
[00:13:07] Kevin Daisey: Well, I know other lawyers that have crushed it. Maybe that’s not for you, but if you’re not focused to have a plan and you’re not tracking KPIs and what to expect from it and have some people accountable for the results that you’re looking for and give it enough time, well, it’s not going to work. It’s just not going to happen.
[00:13:26] Kevin Daisey: Um, and if you don’t have systems processes in a plan, if he did turn to speak it on, that is pure chaos as well. You don’t even know how to handle it. And then you say, Hey, stop it. We’re, we’re busy enough now. And then you don’t get busy again, and then you’re like, Hey, turn it back on again. Let’s try that again.
[00:13:41] Kevin Daisey: So everything has to kind of be aligned and working and, and the attorney can work on the business and not just be running around like crazy the whole time.
[00:13:52] Steve Fretzin: And it’s, and there’s no silver bullet, generally speaking for everyone, everyone’s, you know, in a different market selling, you know, you had different legal services, you have different angles, different brands.
[00:14:02] Steve Fretzin: And I got into an argument on a podcast, which was, which, you know, it is a very friendly argument. It wasn’t, it wasn’t anything aggressive, but I was, you know, saying, look, SEO isn’t for everyone. And she was like, what are you talking about? Of course it is. And I’m like, well, no, it’s not. If you’re, you know, getting into the game so late in the most crowded SEO market in the world, you’re going to be on page, you know, 75 on Google and you’re going to try to compete.
[00:14:26] Steve Fretzin: And get, is that really the best model to try to, you know, how long is that going to take a and B and how much money is that going to cost? And what if I’m a small firm and I don’t have, you know, 500, 000 or a million dollars sitting around? It’s not for everybody. So, but she was like, no, you gotta, you gotta do it.
[00:14:42] Steve Fretzin: I’m like, why? You know, it’s just, you gotta pick your battles. Hey everybody, check this out. You’ve just had a call with a client where they need help with something you don’t do. You’ve reached out to colleagues, you’ve searched the lawyer directories and you simply tell them you don’t know anyone that can help.
[00:14:58] Steve Fretzin: Overture changes all of that. Overture is the first private attorney network designed for the country’s best independent attorneys to refer matters to one another and ethically share in referral fees. It’s a great way to keep your clients happy and build your practice with referred clients. It’s by the founders of LegalZoom.
[00:15:17] Steve Fretzin: Membership is free if you’re accepted, but act now to get priority access to referrals for your state and practice area. Apply for membership at overture. law, overture. law.
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[00:15:51] Steve Fretzin: Tired of feeling insignificant? Make it rain. Visit GetVisible. com and stand out. And so I think, you know, part of what I work with clients on, and I think Kevin, you identify with this too, is let’s really identify who your clients are, let’s identify what their needs are, and let’s try to pick a marketing channel that is going to resonate with that audience.
[00:16:13] Steve Fretzin: I’ll give you the best example I have. I pushed a lot of chips and a lot of money in on video. Teaching lawyers how to do business development and it couldn’t have failed harder and I, I said, look, if it fails, it was a subscription model to 50 a year, like it couldn’t have been cheaper and better. And whatever.
[00:16:30] Steve Fretzin: It was a great offer. The reason it failed a, because I didn’t know how to market it, but beat what I found out and what I is that yes, videos are great. However, is a lawyer going to sit in front of a computer in the middle of the day? And watch videos on business development. They already are opposed to business development at all.
[00:16:48] Steve Fretzin: And then on top of that, they’re going to sit and watch a static video of me talking and not billing hours or not doing other things. The answer was no. The answer is no. And I didn’t, but I said, you know what, even if this fails, I’m going to have some really good video content. Uh, so I had like a backup plan that I could still repurpose the content.
[00:17:03] Steve Fretzin: But podcasts, on the other hand. Holy mackerel, like, what a difference, walking the dog, driving their car, on the train, in their office, playing in the background. They can multitask and it was like an epiphany that podcasting is a far better way to get into a lawyer’s head and teach stuff, even then books, even then video for me.
[00:17:28] Steve Fretzin: So how do you see, you know, you’ve been podcasting now, how long? Four or five years. I think. So yeah, a couple of years on me. And how has it been for you and how do you see it as, as a potential marketing channel for lawyers?
[00:17:42] Kevin Daisey: Yeah, absolutely. That’s a good point. And for me, I mean, I got kids, I got, I run businesses.
[00:17:47] Kevin Daisey: I have a 30 minute commute to my office. I just choose to live a little further from the office. So I listen to podcasts every morning on my drive. I can’t read a book because that takes a lot of time of just sitting there quiet. And I just. I don’t have it. So for me, it’s on the way to work and back. So that’s an hour each day that I can consume either podcasts or ebooks or audio books and things like that.
[00:18:11] Kevin Daisey: So that works for me. So I understand a lawyer running around, they’re in court or in cases or depositions, all that stuff all day. Commute to and from all the weekends, mowing the grass, you know, whatever it is, you can consume that content. So I think podcasts are great for that. And so I’ve been podcast for quite a while.
[00:18:31] Kevin Daisey: I have a business podcast. It’s not the business, the managing partners podcast is the podcast that we currently produce. I had a business one that me and my partner did daily for a few years that has like 1300 episodes. So I’ve been doing it for quite a while. And really what I’ve seen with attorneys, not, and I’ve, I know quite a few attorneys that are very successful with podcasts in areas that I thought wouldn’t be successful.
[00:18:57] Kevin Daisey: So I’ll leave with that because with anything like that, like I said, with marketing or channels or different things, I’ve seen everyone make everything successful if they focus on it and do it properly. So, so a few ways that I, you know, I know that it’s very successful is the way that I do it. And the way Steve kind of handles it is if you’re a business attorney.
[00:19:18] Kevin Daisey: Or a state plan attorney or anyone that’s looking to connect with business owners or a particular job title, you know, CEOs and stuff like that. The interview style podcast is, is massive. It’s huge. I can have Steve here on my show. We can have a great conversation about him and his business and we have the opportunity to connect.
[00:19:44] Kevin Daisey: And Steve’s obviously going to know what I do, ask me what I do. We’re going to connect off, you know, behind the scenes. And now I have a connection with Steve, who is my prospect in this case, if he was an attorney. And so I get to build that relationship and I’ve been invited to dinners, events all around the country, just having conversations with folks and I’m not selling them on, on the podcast.
[00:20:08] Kevin Daisey: I’m just having them on to talk about them, their business and what they’ve done to accomplish goals in their life. And that works the best. If you’re a B to C attorney, so say your personal injury or divorce, you want to speak on the subject matter, you know, be the subject matter expert. And if it’s a certain area that you’re in, uh, geographically, I had a, I had a guest on, it was a divorce attorney in Colorado and a high net worth area around like Aspen and stuff like that.
[00:20:38] Kevin Daisey: And he’s like, yeah, we do a podcast about divorce. And I’m like, That’s gotta be hard to get clients. Like who’s going to go listen to that? And then they said, well, boom, look how many clients that we sign up and how many left listeners we get. And so they had a geographic targeted podcast show about divorce that brought in tons of clients and interest.
[00:21:01] Kevin Daisey: And I was just blown away.
[00:21:02] Steve Fretzin: So, well, it doesn’t have to be people that are going through a divorce that are going to be on the show, right? If you talk about divorce and all the things around it, and then people listening that maybe you’re considering it or find that subject interesting, they’re listening.
[00:21:14] Steve Fretzin: And then they feel like to your point, like people listening right now to Kevin, you and I, Kevin, right? And they’re saying like, I feel like I really know Steve. Like he’s, you know, he’s, you know, clearly I’m, I’m authentic. I mean, what I’m doing on my show is who I am. Like, talk about my, right. You know, crazy teenager.
[00:21:30] Steve Fretzin: I talk about my crazy lawyer father and, you know, other things that, you know, it’s just clear, like, you know, people are getting to know me and, and, and through the questions I ask and through the, the information I share, they can not only get to know me, but also understand that I’m not, you know, just some like, you know, fly by, you know, fly by night vendor, right?
[00:21:48] Steve Fretzin: Like I’m in a very well, I’m a very well established, you know, business development coach for lawyers that comes out in interviewing you and others that I do. So. That, that, I don’t know. You can get that through reading a book. Like, you can feel like you get to know the author through reading a book, and, and hopefully my books translate that.
[00:22:05] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know that it’s as, it’s as strong of a relationship feeling than you get in a podcast. A hundred
[00:22:11] Kevin Daisey: percent. So, if they tune in, say they’re, say they’re thinking about a divorce, right? And we’ll use this example. They’re, they’re questioning it, they’re thinking about it, and they find your a,
[00:22:25] Kevin Daisey: A podcast or a video on YouTube from the podcast that explains the question they have, right? And that’s how they first interact with you. And they see you or hear you. And now they’re thinking, okay, if I want to hire an attorney, who do I want representing me? Like this person sounds knowledgeable, they sound intelligent.
[00:22:45] Kevin Daisey: They’re starting to say, Hey, you know, if I’m going to hire an attorney, this might be the one for me. And they’re also local and you’re starting to build up that relationship and they have, you have no clue who they are on the other side. So the other way that that you can use that is. You do have a prospect that’s got some general questions.
[00:23:03] Kevin Daisey: Hey, I have a video actually that I did answering this exact question or my podcast episode. You should listen to this and you can use it as an, you know, a tool for intake or
[00:23:14] Steve Fretzin: maybe they’re kind of on the fence. It’s almost like a giveaway, Kevin, right? Like you’re, you’ve got this content that you’re giving away and people hear about on your show.
[00:23:20] Steve Fretzin: Then they go and they convert to that, you know, video that’s on your website, you know, maybe now you’ve got a retargeting campaign and now everywhere they go, they’re seeing your brand. Other offers. So it’s right. It’s all leading to something. Yeah. So I was,
[00:23:35] Kevin Daisey: you know, it’s, it’s repurposing, right? So me and you are recording this now.
[00:23:38] Kevin Daisey: Obviously we can take this and make an article out of it. We can, we can take clips. We can do video versions. We can do audio clips. There’s so many things you can do to disperse it. And you, we, we did this recording one time. Getting that potential prospect to hear you look at you or see you if you’re doing video versions.
[00:24:00] Kevin Daisey: Like, my podcast is video and audio, so we, we do different, you know, I do live on LinkedIn and we invite attorneys to watch us, all the stuff we do. If for some reason they connect with me or like me, they can accomplish that and that’s, that’s kind of my goal. Yeah. And if they don’t like me and they don’t like what I say, and then I don’t need them to reach out and waste both of our time.
[00:24:21] Kevin Daisey: So, so it’s just. It’s just a really good way to, again, build that relationship through hearing the voice or, or seeing that person. And you know, with divorce, just use that as an example, that could take six months or a year or more before someone’s really ready to take the plunge and say, you know what, I’m, I’m going to go through with this.
[00:24:40] Kevin Daisey: So, and that’s what this one firm had kind of attested to. They had the following, and they had people that had gotten divorces. They just want to be up on the, you know, listen to it and then they’re referring their friends that may be able, you know, going through a divorce is, Hey, you got to use this firm.
[00:24:56] Kevin Daisey: You know, I didn’t use them. I wish I did. I listened to their podcast. You got to use them. And it’s such
[00:25:02] Steve Fretzin: a soft in road. It’s such a, like, you’re not pushing a divorce attorney on someone saying, Hey, check out this podcast that you can just sit in your car on your, by yourself and listen to when you’re driving to work or whatever.
[00:25:13] Steve Fretzin: Like here’s the dirty little secret, Kevin, that lawyers may not realize about podcasting. One of the things that they struggle, lawyers struggle with is how to get in front of general councils, how to get in front of CEOs, business owners, how to get in front of the people that could buy from them. And they don’t realize like you can, you can build a relationship.
[00:25:34] Steve Fretzin: By an offer of value say, Hey, I want to have you on my show or, and it’s a value to them in the sense that they get to tell their story. They get to share their knowledge. They feel good about it. And you’re the one that offered it up. Like it’s a value. I’m offering you something of value for your business.
[00:25:52] Steve Fretzin: And in doing so, I get to know you. In doing so, I get to network with you in a way. And so lawyers that say like, Hey, I, I need to meet these GCs, but I don’t know what to, how to start a conversation, or I don’t know how to, how to convert them to a client. Well, it has to start somewhere and giving value is a great place to start.
[00:26:10] Steve Fretzin: And if you don’t have something of value to offer a GC other than golf or, Or whatever, like, this is a way to go and it costs you, you know, almost nothing and you’re going to get to know them much better than maybe even on a golf course in some instances. So that’s the secret is like you can build relationships and get business through a podcast where you just, you don’t have that same in road with, with other platforms.
[00:26:33] Steve Fretzin: Yeah,
[00:26:33] Kevin Daisey: a hundred percent. And again, even if it’s like the, the really early on potential prospect, that’s. Just really early questioning things or whatever, Hey, I think this episode would be really helpful for you to listen to this and then, and then kind of see where you are, but now they just heard you and listen to you and they, they, they start to cement that relationship and now they’re probably not going to be thinking about looking anywhere else they’re in, they’re kind of locked in there and so, and it’s just free value.
[00:27:01] Kevin Daisey: You already recorded it. You can send it off and it’s going to be even early in the automation process. Like, uh, someone could fill out a form and start filling out a form and say, are you ready to do this now? Well, not really. I have some questions. Okay, great. And then you still intake them and you send them that right away.
[00:27:18] Kevin Daisey: Hey, by the way, you mentioned you weren’t quite ready. Great episode. For you to listen to, to think about if you should do this, that,
[00:27:26] Steve Fretzin: right? Yeah. I was, I was, I was talking with, sorry, I’m interrupting Kevin. I was talking with, um, one of my now clients on the podcast and I was interviewing him because he’s built a phenomenal law firm and he’s just highly regarded in his area.
[00:27:40] Steve Fretzin: And I was just mentioning the, as I did at the beginning of this show, my peer advisory roundtables and I noticed he was writing something down. I go, Eric, what are you writing down? He goes, well, I want to hear more about that. So like even, and then he became now around table client. He’s in my rainmaker roundtable group.
[00:27:54] Steve Fretzin: So it’s like, you just don’t have that opportunity, that same type of opportunity with marketing through an article, marketing through a social media channels necessarily and other, other. Options that exist in podcasting is so easy, especially if you get a production team like I have Turkey podcast out of L.
[00:28:14] Steve Fretzin: A. And man, they, I just upload my show, they produce it, they edit it, they get it, they make sure it pops up and populates where it needs to go. So like, what am I, what’s my investment really? Like, people think it’s a lot of time, it’s meeting you for 15 minutes, having you on the show for 30. Uploading it and then promoting it.
[00:28:32] Steve Fretzin: And if I have a marketing manager, as I do in my guy, Sergio, like he’s then the one that’s putting it out and getting it on the, you know, getting it out everywhere. So like, I’m just the talent, you know, interviewing and collaborating with you. And then everything else is being done for me. I mean, geez, it’s so it’s so, you know, amazing.
[00:28:50] Kevin Daisey: Yeah, it’s literally like, yeah. Yeah. Think of a talk show host or like a Steve Harvey or anyone, right? Yeah. They show up, walk up, they do the thing, they roll out. Like there’s like, it’s their stage, they’re set up, but they don’t have to do the ones that are good. They’ve done it for a long time. Well, same thing.
[00:29:07] Kevin Daisey: You’re the lawyer. You’re the expert. You know, this stuff inside and out. Anyone that throws a question at you, you know, you can answer it and with confidence point them in the right direction. You know, set up a consultation and things like that. So it’s easy stuff. Um, if you know your content and I’ll do the same thing.
[00:29:24] Kevin Daisey: So I’ve kind of built my own in house team to automate things and to run things. And we have quite a bit of a process, but you can easily hire podcast companies that will just. Take care of everything for you. Very affordable. Yeah, then you can do it weekly. It could be monthly. It could be daily. Um, you can kind of
[00:29:43] Steve Fretzin: choose your style.
[00:29:44] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, don’t feel like you have to be pressured. I do, I do too. The only reason I do two a week, by the way, is because I had so many guests lined up. They like completed, but I’d be like, hey, it’s a September. We’re gonna have you in in January. They’d be like, January? I’m like, well, yeah, I have that many like recorded before years.
[00:29:59] Steve Fretzin: So I’m like, well, wait a second. That’s not a bad thing, right? I’ve just got more content than I can even handle. And so doing two a week is, has been my jam for, I don’t know, the last two
[00:30:08] Kevin Daisey: years. I’m about to be there again, so yeah, you are going once a
[00:30:12] Steve Fretzin: week and you’ve got a ton in the can. Hey man, listen, wrapping up, Kevin, I love to ask people about their game changing podcast.
[00:30:19] Steve Fretzin: You mentioned you listen, you know, you got your 30 minute twice a day commute. Your game changing podcast is called the game. Can you talk about, about who that is and what that’s about? Sure. So
[00:30:28] Kevin Daisey: the game I listened to quite a few, um, but, uh, that one stands out. The game is by, uh, Alex Hermosi. He’s also the author of the book, 100 million offers.
[00:30:39] Kevin Daisey: Which is
[00:30:40] Steve Fretzin: a book. Steve. Yeah, I just bought it. I’m already kind of digging it and enjoying getting through it for sure.
[00:30:45] Kevin Daisey: Yes, if you look up Alex Hermosi spelling, I can’t think of off the top of my head, but, um, if you look him up or the game, the podcast, the game. So he’s a younger guys in his 30s has built multiple 100 million dollar companies, exited them now is working on a billion dollar company, a portfolio of companies.
[00:31:04] Kevin Daisey: And so he’s like a real big fitness guy. And, uh, he used to have a company doing stuff for gyms. And so he’s just a business, he’s like, he thought he liked fitness. And so he got into gyms and at the end of the day, he really fell in love with, with business. Yeah. And so
[00:31:22] Steve Fretzin: that’s Teaching people how to build a bigger business through Having an unbelievable offer.
[00:31:27] Steve Fretzin: I mean, that’s the, but I just started picking up on this. It’s like, yeah, it’s important to have a great, uh, you know, like system or, or, or service that you’re providing, but if no one’s buying it, then, you know, and you’re just, you’re getting your race to the bottom on price. That’s not the play. So, right.
[00:31:43] Steve Fretzin: So the book is already getting into, like, How do you stay at the top of the price, you know, chart and also through having some amazing offer that people would feel stupid saying no to and, you know, working with lawyers, they are worried about money. They’re worried about investing, they’re worried about it not working.
[00:31:59] Steve Fretzin: So they’d rather just like stay the course. Well, no. You know, my program is second to none, but they don’t know what it is. They don’t know what it’s included. They don’t know what the offer is and why it’s valuable. So I think I’m going to, you know, continue through that. But really, really, I’m going to check out that podcast too, because I, I have the book, but I want to hear the podcast.
[00:32:17] Steve Fretzin: He is, I
[00:32:17] Kevin Daisey: mean, he’s, he’s more like a philosopher too, like he’s very smart. Yeah. And he shares just amazing life and business lessons on a daily basis almost, and all over the board. But at the same time with his, it was the million dollar offers book, he’s got another one coming out like I think next month, which is a hundred million dollar leads, uh, which I have not gotten yet because it’s not out, but just an amazing podcast.
[00:32:42] Kevin Daisey: He shares a lot of good things where you’re like, wow, that’s, that makes sense. And I’ve never heard anyone say that before, which is hard to find today. I think, especially from a young. Entrepreneur.
[00:32:51] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. He’s an impressive guy. Wrapping up, Kevin, um, want to take a moment to thank our sponsors, of course, Overture.
[00:32:57] Steve Fretzin: law, helping you ethically share in the referrals you send out and the referrals you get in. It’s all set up for you and you have to be approved, but I would definitely look at securing your area, securing your practice area before they get. Too busy and too, uh, you know, it’s going to end up being a competitive space.
[00:33:14] Steve Fretzin: So, so get in there while you can with Overture. law and of course, GetVisible, helping you to, you know, build your, build your business through digital and, uh, marketing and all that stuff. And you can check out my website fretson. com and see some of the great stuff that, uh, GetVisible does. And, um, thank you, Kevin.
[00:33:29] Steve Fretzin: Um, I think we did a great job today of not only talking marketing, but giving some really good insights on podcasting and the value to lawyers. And if people want to reach out to you and learn more about array digital and about you, um, what are the best ways for them to reach you? Sure. If
[00:33:44] Kevin Daisey: they want to find my company.
[00:33:46] Kevin Daisey: Again, we help law firms in the digital space with the strategy and approach for marketing and implementation. Uh, you can go to arraydigital. com, that’s A R R A Y, digital. com, and then for me, I’m heavy on LinkedIn. So, Kevin, Daisy. At Kevin Daisy for any platform, but linked in specifically to connect on there with me, I’ll message you back and connect with you any questions you might
[00:34:12] Steve Fretzin: have.
[00:34:12] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well, thanks for being on the show, man. It was nice that we could collaborate and be on each other’s do that podcast pot swap or whatever you want to call it. Uh, but I think that’s a great way for us to get to know each other. And I feel like we, you know, just in the two half hour plus sessions, like, you know, I think we’re, we’re, we’re already getting tight and I think there’s more to come for us.
[00:34:29] Steve Fretzin: We just have to. You know, continue the relationship beyond, you know, beyond the, the podcast, right?
[00:34:35] Kevin Daisey: And that’s the power of it. Um, I’ve gotten relationships with, with attorneys all around the country that I still check in with and I can hit up anytime. Uh, so it’s been a great, and it’s fun. I love business.
[00:34:46] Kevin Daisey: I like to hear about their business. It’s not about if they’re a client of ours or not. So if they’re going to be a fit, they’ll know that and we can have that conversation. But. Uh, I’ll leave you one with one stat too for podcasting. Um, this is a staff from 2022, but there’s two over 2 billion websites online right now that are up and running.
[00:35:05] Kevin Daisey: A lot of lawyers are in there too, but 2 billion. And then there’s only 2 million podcasts. So it’s just, if you look at the difference there and the opportunity to say, Hey, there’s no space for me here. There absolutely is a space for you. And think about that compared to like Instagram accounts and.
[00:35:25] Kevin Daisey: YouTube accounts, you know, there’s still such a small piece of the market and there’s a lot of opportunity for everybody.
[00:35:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, yeah, good stat. Thanks, man. Thanks again for being on the show and thank you everybody for spending time with Kevin and I today. Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways and tips and ideas and if you’re interested in, in, in, uh, podcasting, you know, I’ve probably gotten somewhere in the, in the maybe, you know, 7 to 10.
[00:35:47] Steve Fretzin: Lawyers into their own podcast is, you know, I’m not kidding. That’s not, I’m not, it’s not a business for me. I just enjoy coming up with what the angle, you know, what the topic is, what the angle is, and then getting them set up with my buddies over at. Turkey podcast, but thanks for spending time and again helping you be that lawyer.
[00:36:04] Steve Fretzin: Someone’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker. Thanks, kevin Thank you. Steve Yeah, thank you everybody for spending time with us. Take care. We’ll talk again real soon.
[00:36:17] Narrator: Thanks for listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Visit steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business Development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes