Kim Stapleton: Business Development Best Practices

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kim Stapleton discuss:

  • Kim’s professional role as a business development executive at a law firm and how that impacts the firm.
  • Being prepared for all sales and marketing conversations, as well as networking events (no matter the size).
  • Best practices in business development.
  • Utilizing your second degree connections.

Key Takeaways:

  • Show up in someone’s inbox. Even though you may have met, being top of mind at the right time.
  • Invite those you want to connect with to many different things. Something may be appealing that may not have originally been obvious.
  • Verbalize your desire to work with someone during networking meetings.
  • LinkedIn is one of the best marketing tools that you have in your arsenal – use it.

“I can pair up the right people with the right individuals, because it comes down to a relationship…Sales is different than marketing. Marketing is to the masses, but mine is…the relationship.” —  Kim Stapleton

Connect with Kim Stapleton:  



Phone: 312-726-8106


Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.




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Kim Stapleton, Narrator, Steve Fretzin


Kim Stapleton  [00:00]

I always think of sales as different than marketing marketing is to the masses. You might do big PR releases and work on the logo and all of our information sheets. But mine is, Hey, Steve, this is the company I want you to meet with. And can we set it up in the next two weeks, so they love that relationship as to why


Narrator  [00:25]

you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:49]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, the host and I hope that you’re having a lovely day. Listen, as you know, this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. And we continue to spend, you know, 30 minutes every, you know, twice a week to try to help you to emulate best practices in marketing, business development, time management, health and wellness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it’s rare that I have a guest who has worked in house and business development, training and coaching lawyers, has then also worked, you know, out on her own doing that, and now is internal working at a law firm, actually doing business development for the law firm. So I’d like you to meet my guest today. And this is someone I’ve known for many years, years. Kim Stapleton, she’s the Business Development Executive over at ICE Miller Chicago office. How’re you doing, Kim?


Kim Stapleton  [01:43]

Great. Thanks so much for having me, Steve.


Steve Fretzin  [01:46]

Yeah, thanks for being here. And I kind of gave a little bit of a background on the three and then you’ve done more than three things. But these are the three that I really want to focus on today is the three different areas that you’ve you’ve had the opportunity to work in and give a give a little background of sort of how you came to be and get into legal and focus in these areas.


Kim Stapleton  [02:05]

Thank you. I’ve loved doing sales in Chicago for 21 years. And I spent 10 of those years at Grant Thornton. And I really enjoyed sitting in the technical meetings, these partners who are busy with book of business, and I understand that I actually very young realize this is going to be an internal sell before I can get someone to want to attend a meeting with me that might be taking four hours out of their day. But I knew they’re all super busy people. I’ve loved how smart they were. And I got to sit in meetings every day with them and really technical meetings. And now I have parlayed that onto the legal side. And it’s very comparable. A lot of people ask me questions, comparing the law firm versus an accounting firm, similar, there’s a few differences between accounting and legal, but the partnership is pretty similar. They are busy people that are really smart. And if I can just get them in front of the right people that they hit it off with. That’s how we bring in new clients together.


Steve Fretzin  [03:02]

Gotcha, gotcha. And so then what’s your like past in history as it relates to developing into the legal profession? Because as I mentioned, you’ve done a number of different things. So give us give us that background of of yours and service. And then we can we can move forward on a couple other questions I have.


Kim Stapleton  [03:19]

I did resign from Grant Thornton when I had a third daughter. And I felt that something needed to give in our schedule for a little bit of time. And a lot of people in my network, we’d love for you to come work for us. One of those being dean left woman, a corporate attorney at ICE Miller that I’ve known for 15 years, we sat on a nonprofit board together. And so I always give credit to you know, the time you commit to nonprofits can pay you back immensely as well, too. So it turned into consulting on my own, which was great, I could do it in baby steps. I could say I work one day a week, okay, I’ll work two days a week. And that after a handful of years turned into unwinding. My other clients that were not law firms, though, they were banks and accounting firms. And one of those clients I worked for two years was also again from that same nonprofit. So I really give kudos to my relationship there. I’m glad that I spent 10 years on that board. So it was a long term relationship. Dean and I used to network together, we’ve brought each other in front of clients, we have mutual clients. So it was a trusted relationship that we already had. And it felt very natural. And it is really nice to go from having been an outside consultant to know that this is the firm you want to select to choose. There’s no concern that you know, something’s going to look different than what you’re sold in an interview process. I mean, you’ve been in that office and you know those attorneys very well. So that was a very comfortable thing to do last year early in 2020.


Steve Fretzin  [04:51]

So transitioning from the consulting space, coaching space, etc, into working internally at a law firm as their big Is this development executive? Because that’s not something every firm is doing right bringing in some professional to actually develop relationships and grow business. So that’s it’s an I don’t know, if it’s five or 10 years that that sort of been going on. But now many firms have pulled the trigger. So why why why would ice Miller do that? And like, what’s the what’s their setup for, for having you come in and do that?


Kim Stapleton  [05:23]

It makes sense. Because they, they have known me for a long time. And know that I, I can pair up the right people with the right individuals, because it comes down to a relationship. And so it’s, I always think of sales as different than marketing marketing is to the masses, you might do big PR releases and work on the logo and all of our information sheets, but mine is, Hey, Steve, this is the company I want you to meet with. And can we set it up in the next two weeks? So they love that relationship? As do I. And I think that plenty of partnerships that have these busy folks, if they can have it curated where this is the right person for you to meet with not doing the shotgun approach. It’s it’s not taking away anyone’s time. It’s very efficient. For both sides.


Steve Fretzin  [06:15]

Yeah. So here, I’m, I’m, you know, every day I’m working with attorneys and some mature firm, by the way, who are phenomenal, and helping them do the networking and do the relationship building and actually develop the business and cross marketing and all of that, in the reality is that that there, you know, one out of a handful of attorneys that are actively pursuing help and an interest in doing that. And there’s most attorneys that are not in so your job is really critical, because you can step in and take that role and take a little bit off of their plate, let them focus on being great lawyers, right, and then you can do the business development.


Kim Stapleton  [06:51]

Yeah, and if I can attend an event for two hours, three hours of my time to find the right person in that room for our firm, and then set up a very efficient 30 minute coffee or meeting that saves them having to work that room and I’d be happy to work the round and find the right person there.


Steve Fretzin  [07:11]

Yeah. Yeah, I’m sure I love


Kim Stapleton  [07:13]

as well. I mean, it doesn’t just stop there. Because I’d be happy to continue to think of that prospect, the person that I introduced to the firm and, you know, send follow up emails, looping in the right attorney or ghost reading them, so it can come from them. But you know, running by them, hey, what do you think this this event are? Bring them to this, it’s time for us to get back in front of them and being a reminder to


Steve Fretzin  [07:39]

you and are you running your own show and bringing in the appropriate people for the Kim Stapledon show? Or are you having lawyers come to you and say, Hey, here’s some companies I want to get into? And can you help me or is it? I’m curious about that.


Kim Stapleton  [07:52]

It’s a little bit of a mix. But more often, it’s who comes across my desk, who in my network says they have this need, or whatever vertical that need is in that I’m going to find the right attorney. And But occasionally, I just double check with someone, hey, this is what I’m thinking this is the attorney I’m thinking. Do you agree? And or do you have any additional ideas? I haven’t thought that, you know, I love other people’s perspectives, too. But yes, attorneys do. Less often, though that meet coming to them do come to me a lot of times, I’ll get one line emails, like some someone just went to ABC company, what do you know about this company can’t because it’s fresh name to them. And if I can say who the accountant or the banker is, or give them some additional detail that I know or look at, you know, who I know, in common with their contact, things like that. We do work on it collaboratively to dissect it. And it takes a lot of research together. And I’m happy to always do that research.


Steve Fretzin  [08:52]

And then are you acting then more as a business development matchmaker for the companies and the lawyers? Or are you actually then running this the actual sales meeting of putting those two people together, but you’re kind of running how that meeting is handled?


Kim Stapleton  [09:10]

Yes, I am definitely the matchmaker that puts that together. And then I am will huddle beforehand to make sure we’re thinking of different areas that are applicable for this sort of company. Is it a lot of labor issues? Is it product liability? Is it privacy type things? So we’ll we’ll collaborate that way if we need to pull someone else in. And we will pull research in that company. So we really come prepared. I don’t want to waste anyone’s time on either end internally at my firm I smeller. Or at the prospect company and we want to look knowledgeable when we come out there and not embarrass ourselves. Yeah, well, sure. However, limited amount of time that everyone has is biggest challenge in life. So so we huddle on that and then each person has their own difference. Dayal, I definitely. I’m a talker. But I tell these attorneys, you’re not going to hear much from me outside, once I’m out of this side of the firm, I do a lot of internal talking. But they run the show then. But they do you know, I, I interject, I think of others, because it’s very common, if you’re a litigator, or you’re in one specific area, right, you’re gonna be thinking of that company in that way, but they might not have a lot of litigation. So I’m gonna really represent the whole firm and think of other areas, and certain people are very good at doing that at cross selling other areas. And some people you know, they’re very used to their, their area. And that’s the most comfortable to them. So I do like to mix it up in the meetings, of course, we get to know the person personally, I’m part of that. And then I’ve been told I make sure to bring it back to business.


Steve Fretzin  [10:52]

Right, right. I can’t talk about kids the whole time, right? You gotta, you got to talk about there, the matter. Now, there are two kinds of meetings that I work with my clients on with a new GC, a new company, new CEO, etc. And I have different names for them. And I’ll share them and I want to get your take on on how to run those two meetings. So one of them is called, I call it a curiosity meeting. And that’s a general counsel, for example, that is willing to take the meeting with you and some of the other people at your firm, because they’re curious, they’re interested, it’s a new firm, and they might want to do business with you. Okay, but it’s, it’s curious, no, needs have been established. Right. And then the other one, I call more of needs based, they’ve told you three, four challenges. They’re having one challenge, whatever. And that may be a different kind of meeting, right? And so I wanted to get your take on how you would run needs a curiosity meeting where it’s sort of like an initial get to know you, versus something where there’s burdensome needs established?


Kim Stapleton  [11:48]

Yes, there. My day is definitely a mix of both of those. It’s nice when you know, your hard charging towards one area. But a lot of times when I’m just asking to get to know someone, it’s going to be your first curiosity meeting. And I guess those are a little more uncertain. But everyone’s open Trumps still, as an attorney, I should say, they’re like, Yeah, let’s go out there and get to know the company and see what their needs are. But we might prepare thinking, Oh, well, it might be this route. And then, you know, you get thrown a curveball, you’re like, Oh, you have something going on. We didn’t know about right. But occasionally, if they’re open to taking that meeting, there’s something underlying, we’re going to try to dig to figure it out with the appropriate questions, but not coming off too hard. I mean, all of the attorneys I work with are just down to earth, folks. And so, you know, we’re, it’s not a transaction, we’re going in there. And don’t they don’t feel like they’re being drilled with questions.


Steve Fretzin  [12:49]

Yeah. So it’s a lot more relationship building, and just, you know, just asking questions and trying to understand the nature of the business, and then try and identify some needs if they exist.


Kim Stapleton  [13:00]

Yes. And on the needs based side, right, we’re gonna be able to be more prepared. And we know exactly which areas we need to cover, because they laid it out for us.


Steve Fretzin  [13:09]

Right, right. Got it. So let’s so you’ve been since you’ve been in so many different, like elements of business development inside and outside of the law firm, you have developed your own style, and also your things that you do on a daily basis to make sure that you’re bringing in business and opportunities for the firm. So I’d like to just go over maybe that kind of three to five of your of Kim Stapleton best practices, things that you’d say, look, attorneys, I’m doing this every day, I’m not, you know, doing the work. But but even if you have 30 minutes a week, or or three hours a week, these are the things that you should be doing. Let’s go through a number of your best practices.


Kim Stapleton  [13:50]

Sure. One of the first ones really is showing up in someone’s inbox. Because although we’ve met several times over the course of a couple of years, it’s thinking of that person at that opportune time. So how can I do that? Then my second step, really, it comes down to a lot of invitations, we always have. I just got an email yesterday and was able to send it to General Counsel this morning, for an organization we’re involved in. And this attorney thought specifically of a prospect that he’s heard me speak of, because there’s a correlation with this association. And I already got a reply, like, thanks so much for the invitation. So I think every day I have invitations to something, a webinar that we’re putting out about cyber security right now. And, you know, 1015 people are registered to to sign up that piques my interest of my 10 to 15 context that I didn’t know for sure. You know, why is this appealing to them right now? And then just emails even sometimes it can be as random as I just thought of you. I saw one of your trucks go by like it’s Drew, I just thought of you, but I might as well let them know that I found them. And I still get replies from those like, great. Thanks. But thanks for sending some good Oh, but you know, just being a person of a personable person to these prospects,


Steve Fretzin  [15:16]

and sounds like but it sounds like Kim’s like top of mind, right? You’re not You’re not spending a year away from someone that has a relationship that’s important to you or a prospective buyer for the firm that’s away from you. You’re figuring out ways to get into in front of them through the inbox through emails, articles, things that you’re thinking of them for webinars, how do you reengage them so that you can get more face time,


Kim Stapleton  [15:40]

and another one is introducing them to someone else, it does not have to be someone in the legal profession. I did this to a gentleman at Ernst and Young, and a CEO. They both live near each other. They both are bicyclist both sailor sailors. They, since then have you know, had beers together. And they say, Kim, this has turned into such a good friendship in the last year, we all went out as couples recently, because I introduced those two. And so always happy I think most people are always looking to grow their network. And if again, you’re showing that you’re thinking of them as a person, it’s not just a transaction with their company. But you’re showing interest in things outside of, you know, reasons, a lot of times it’s they have kids the same age, things like that. So I’ll throw names out like, Hey, do you know this person that lives in your town? If you do not? Would you like an introduction? Here’s the reason. They’re both University Michigan grads? Yeah, really, there’s a lot of reasons they’re gonna get along.


Steve Fretzin  [16:41]

Yeah, the Michigan thing, I don’t want to go there. But they’re all They’re all like, we’re all together, like Notre Dame, it’s like just crazy for each other. The deal they’re raising. So here’s, here’s, I’m gonna give you a lawyer pushback. So there’s a lawyer listening to this podcast right now. And that lawyer saying, I’ve done all that I connect people, I invite people, I think of people, I do all this goodwill. And it doesn’t seem to really come back to me, it’s not really turning into business. And I’m frustrated, because I’ve invested all this time in networking or doing for others. And how do you suggest people convert? Or how do people get back around to the business end of all these great deeds and karma building exercises that we go through?


Kim Stapleton  [17:31]

It does start first before you ask for the business, scratch their back three times before you ask for the business. But then, eventually, you I close my emails with let me know if there’s anything that we can do to assist you. And I did that with someone and I just got a reply. Would your firm be interested in looking at this? And I think that it needed that additional little need. I’ve had a CEO say to me, You’ve helped me in so many ways, what can I do to help them, you could use our firm, and sometimes you have to spell it out, then in that case, it was said, no problem. Next opportunity is yours. So you do sometimes need to say I hope we have the chance to work together. And I hope that you think of our firm. Hope is slightly a weak word. I tried to stay away from the word help. But you know, I trust that we’ll have the opportunity to work together sometime.


Steve Fretzin  [18:27]

But I think the main point that you’re making is that you’re you’re you’re using like the three time rule, you’re helping someone three times in various ways. And then you’re you’re comfortable then making the ask even if it’s a soft ask or hope ask, it’s still an ask that has to be made. Because although people feel the help, and they appreciate the help, sometimes they do need it spelled out for them. And they need to know that. Oh, you’re Oh, I didn’t realize your unique business are interested in business. Oh, like, da right. But that’s that’s sometimes needs to be spelled out.


Kim Stapleton  [19:01]

Yeah. And it’s really easy to do particularly so much communication is over email. You might not feel comfortable saying it face to face, but you can put it in an email.


Steve Fretzin  [19:12]

Yeah, that might soften that soften it a bit. The other thing is, I find that when you when you when you do help others they do come around and say that’s really helpful. And I really appreciate that connection. How can I help you? And then sometimes lawyers dropped the ball on that, like they say, well just keep your eyes open for me. And I get that, however, my my program and what I you know, I’m coaching people all the time is to say that would be really great. And would you take can we take five or 10 minutes to just talk through what that might look like, who I’m looking to meet who you might know, and they say sure because it was their idea. It’s like the trains in the station and you can take your ticket and get on or you can let the train leave the station, hold your ticket and watch it go off into the distance. Right. So I think that would be something you know, just to put out there into the ether that Sometimes we need to be the coach or we need to be the person that can step in and take charge in a situation like that.


Kim Stapleton  [20:06]

Right. Another example, too is I just got off the call this morning with one of our great litigators. And he said, I don’t love to talk about myself in a meeting. And he’s got a great book of business. They said, I understand what you’re saying, I think it’s so much better to when someone else is there saying, Steve is the best at this. And someone else can rattle off all your accolades versus it coming from you. So if you have someone who can do that, and you do it for them, I think that works really well, too.


Steve Fretzin  [20:41]

Yeah, right. It’s always easier to talk about other people.


Kim Stapleton  [20:44]

Yeah, yeah. Cuz then when it comes down to selling yourself, but you know, and proving yourself in a lot of ways, but sometimes there’s other ways, and it’s articles that you’ve co authored, and awards you’ve received and put out there to


Steve Fretzin  [20:58]

keep Gusher. And just to review, the three things that we’ve covered so far, in this little this segment of of the of the podcast, one is emailing and again, staying top of mind thinking of you, inviting them to webinars making introductions, I know if we call it now the three times rule, I like that, that you can hit them three different ways three different times as a way of adding value, then you’re in a better position to make an ask, are there any other things that you’re doing on a day to day basis that you’d say, hey, lawyers, if you’re not doing this, you’re missing more of the


Kim Stapleton  [21:33]

boat, I would add LinkedIn, because I can’t go a day without being on there and coming across someone that’s moved to New Company, a new company. And it’s, and I use it for research too. But it’s really helpful to know who knows someone. So when I do go into a meeting, it can also start off with something in common you, you see their whole resume, you see their alma mater, where they’re involved, volunteer wise, and nonprofit boards. And so figures out a way how to get introduced to them for a first time, or what you’re going to talk about to when you’re meeting for the first time.


Steve Fretzin  [22:15]

Yeah, and a couple other things on LinkedIn that you and I can go back and forth on to is, I’m a big fan. And I used to not do this, I used to use it strictly for business development. Now I’m doing a lot more marketing and branding. They’re sharing content. But I also commenting on other people’s content. So a GC a CEO, somebody’s, you know, promoting some when or something that they’re doing, and then you comment on it as a way, just like the email that you sent earlier to send out, it’s another way to stay on their radar. And it’s another way to add a little bit of an edge to that relationship. Right?


Kim Stapleton  [22:51]

Right. It is to your whole network at one time. So versus those individual emails. But it’s even beyond that, because it goes to people outside of your network when someone else looks at it and comments about it. Don’t we all look at something about someone we don’t know because of a common person, a person in common. So it’s even better for that than just the personal emails as well. So it’s a good mix of both.


Steve Fretzin  [23:17]

But I think in addition to that, the idea that you can add value by commenting or sharing someone else’s post as a way of getting them to know you. I mean, if it’s a general counsel that’s never met you, and you comment multiple times over a period of months, share their posts, talk them up, when you reach out to them by an email, what’s the likelihood that they’re going to want to talk to you or say hello, or Thank you?


Kim Stapleton  [23:41]

Right? They’ll recognize the name already. So yeah, sound so foreign. And then anyone who’s spending time to put together a podcast or blog that they’re putting out there, they appreciate the people who are following it. And so the support is always a great way to Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [24:01]

And then lawyers just aren’t using LinkedIn enough for business development. Again, you know, if there’s a company that you want to get into that you think you would do good work for their GCS their CEO, all their employees are on LinkedIn. And they don’t realize you can just click on the company, click on the employees, see where your second degree connections are, and who’s in between, right. And they’re just, I don’t understand why they’re not using that as a more regular tool for for cutting kind of shortcutting. You know, the business development process? Yeah,


Kim Stapleton  [24:32]

I think it’s training yourself and it back in the day, the first year, it was out, I used to schedule time on Saturday mornings to make myself sit and do LinkedIn for an hour. Because you almost need to block it out in your calendar. Yeah, until until it’s a regular in your schedule. And I think that once they’ve realized that now with marketing teams putting out when you speak at events or webinars, they realize wow, I got a new Client from that, and it came through some form of social media, Twitter or LinkedIn, then they then they see the benefit. There used to be concerned that all your competitors would see your clients. But I don’t know the difference of if that’s your cousin, but you don’t know anything about their business, if it’s your client, or if it’s someone you’ve never even met in person. So I, I think people are over that hurdle now. But I just put that out there to say, you don’t know to what degree someone knows any of those contexts.


Steve Fretzin  [25:31]

Yeah, there’s many more reasons to be on and using LinkedIn than not. And I feel like, you know, I started training people on LinkedIn. I mean, we’re going back 15 years, when I, you know, I’d have a room of 50 people, and I’d say Who here is on LinkedIn, and maybe half the room would raise their hand. Now it’s everyone’s on there. The problem is, now I say, who’s you know who’s on it, everyone raise their NSA who’s getting business from it, and then all the hands come down. So it is something we need training on, and we need to continue training on because it is, it is like the best business development tool, maybe that’s ever been designed in the history of the world for helping with prospecting activities. And if you’re not understanding its value, and how to use it on a day to day basis, you’re probably you’re probably missing kind of a big piece of of, of how to how to be effective with your time.


Kim Stapleton  [26:17]

I agree with you, 100%. And I also say to attorneys, if you can grow your assistants, someone to handle this for you, that is key. And then if someone else can sit there and monitor it. Excellent. Let you know, when someone’s changed companies. And Assistants used to do this was all of your Rolodex. This is your online Rolodex. And sometimes you don’t know that someone’s new companies for a year. And that would be helpful. So if it takes some of the burden off the attorney, and have someone else really in charge of reaching out to your connections and making you have a presence out there.


Steve Fretzin  [26:58]

Yeah, I like that. I mean, I delegate a lot of my my marketing, social media marketing and my marketing, social media calendar, to my marketing agency, and I, you know, kind of they they’re using my content, but I don’t have to send in post, you know, three, four or five posts a day, I don’t have time for that. And I shouldn’t be doing that. That’s not, that’s not where my time is best spent. Just as an aside to if you haven’t been to my YouTube channel, do you go to YouTube type in my name is Steve Fretzin. Go to I’ve got 200 videos. And if you go like most recent, there’s a, you know, 18 minute video I do on LinkedIn best practices, if you want to check it out. It’s a pretty good video of setting up your profile, making sure you have the right context, and then how to use it proactively for business development, and marketing and branding. And so that might be a quick under 20 minute way for lawyers to kind of get up to speed if you’re interested in hearing that. Any final words on business development best practices, Ken, before we go to the three best of


Kim Stapleton  [27:57]

well, over the weekend, I was reading the paper and I saw something really interesting. The Myers Briggs Personality Test. Yeah. And I hadn’t looked at mine in a lot of years. And I looked that sales is e s t p billiards r e n t p we are only different in one of those four categories. And so I think that should show that lawyers are good at sales. And I just found that intriguing about the similarity.


Steve Fretzin  [28:27]

And I talk a lot about I work with some of the most introverted attorneys uncomfortable attorneys in the country. And they hire me because what we want to do is we want to make business development. It’s a learned skill, and even the most introverted attorneys can learn. And what they what they want to do is they want to learn a process. They want to learn steps that are repeatable, right, because that’s, that’s what an IP attorney and some of the other attorneys that work with love, they don’t want to wing it. They don’t want to have to go out and feel salesy. So that’s really what it’s all about. It doesn’t matter what your personality style is so much. If you’re interested in learning, business development, there’s books, there’s mentors, there’s coaches, people like him and myself that do this every day. And you just want to learn learn best practices, so you’re not out just figuring it out on your own and, and kind of taking your lumps every day. So that’s maybe a good way to kind of wrap things up. Really interesting stuff, Tim, so let’s move to the three best of you are in Downers Grove, Illinois. So that’s a Northwest suburb of Chicago. Brett. Yeah. Okay, and I’m coming to visit Downers Grove. I’m going to take you out for lunch and say thank you for doing the podcast. Where are we going to eat?


Kim Stapleton  [29:35]

There, our downtown area has really become very hip and has the caliber of restaurants like downtown Chicago. Two of those that have opened in the last several years is cadence and facts tale. And they actually just won an award for those two locations. And on Friday at the Downers Grove economic development luncheon and the founder of Madison Dearborn partner Son is one of the owners of those. Yeah. Okay.


Steve Fretzin  [30:03]

And what’s what’s I was gonna say like what’s the like what would I border like? What’s the hot Have you eaten at these places?


Kim Stapleton  [30:09]

Facts town has a lot of seafood. High end, you know, not basic. They’re really very nice. What else meet chef meals. I had a friend from Western Springs business context, send me an email that he went to cadence in the last month and can’t rant and rave enough about how much he loved it has a great outdoor eating area of really big patio area.


Steve Fretzin  [30:32]

Okay, love that. Love that. And so what are then the Things to Do in Downers Grove? What’s sort of the highlight of the area as it relates to a visitor coming to to Downers Grove?


Kim Stapleton  [30:43]

Our farmers market Saturday mornings is open still now I believe but at least you know, starting around Memorial Day and it’s a ton of fun and people do come from all over and it’s very well attended. So I would suggest that


Steve Fretzin  [30:57]

okay, and then what are the what are you into and other people that live in your area into like, maybe over the summer, the fall, like what other than going to the farmers market, but like what, what other activities are hot right now in your area?


Kim Stapleton  [31:11]

Well, in the summer, we’re members at a swim Racquet Club. So a lot of people play tennis, they wave a lot of sports outdoors and outdoor swimming, and they have a swim team. So I love to swim outdoors in summer. A lot of my neighbors around me are Ironman, and a lot of us are triathletes and marathoners. So we hit a lot of different trails. There’s a nice nine and a half mile loop that I’ve been doing the last few weeks. It’s on gravel and we spotted deer on Sunday morning. So you have this great forest preserve trails that I would recommend.


Steve Fretzin  [31:40]

Are you in Are you an Ironman athlete,


Kim Stapleton  [31:44]

and not an Ironman? I’ve done Olympic distance triathlons, and really I’m more of a marathoner. The last that is my, my strongest area I just running.


Steve Fretzin  [31:52]

Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I run when I’m chased. And I run. I play a lot of platform tennis. So I don’t know if the racket clubs out there have I think some of them do. They did


Kim Stapleton  [32:04]

convert. We don’t have paddle ourselves. But we did convert one of the tennis courts to pickle, okay, we just bought a pickle thing for our driveway for our daughters. So you can design it’s fun.


Steve Fretzin  [32:15]

Yeah, pickles a lot of fun. And paddle is a crazy fun thing to do in the winter. And if you’re hearing that for the first time, it’s called Platform tennis or paddle tennis and you can look it up on YouTube as well not on my channel, but just type it into into YouTube. And you’ll see it’s it’s nuts, but a lot of fun. A lot of fun. Well, listen, Kim, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom and giving all these great ideas and to attorneys that are looking to grow their books of business. If people want to reach out to you to network or to you know hear more about ice Miller, how do they reach you?


Kim Stapleton  [32:45]

Yes, emails. Great. Kim that Stapleton at ICE LinkedIn is excellent. But one of my rules is I’m only LinkedIn with people that I’ve met. So happy to receive an inbox request and then I’ll say to you let’s make some time to get to know each other and it can be ever video now. And then my phone number at work is 312-726-8106 Well wonderful.


Steve Fretzin  [33:12]

So thanks again for being on the show. I I have enjoyed knowing you over the years and certainly this puts a little icing on the cake as it relates to us collaborating on something like this show so really good.


Kim Stapleton  [33:25]

Steve, I’m so honored that you asked me to be on here. I hope we can continue to help each other grow new additional business.


Steve Fretzin  [33:33]

Awesome. Well that’s it right there. That’s the theme right the networking and helping others. So listen, everybody. Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways from today. I know I’ve got you know my usual full page of notes on my remarkable to which it has to become a sponsor at some point, because I’m constantly talking about them in Listen, it’s all about helping you to be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care, be safe, be well and keep that action going on that business development. Bye bye, everybody.


Narrator  [34:04]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes