Kip Boyle: The Intimacy of Podcast Marketing

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kip Boyle discuss:

  • Becoming a professional who sells and serves people in the process.
  • The changing of traditional selling techniques.
  • Creative marketing to connect with your community.
  • The unique, human connections of podcasting.

Key Takeaways:

  • People don’t want to connect with companies, they want to connect with people.
  • The selling techniques of yesteryear don’t work and often turn people away.
  • There is a relationship that gets established between a podcast host and the audience that you don’t even realize is happening.
  • It is all about consistency.

“There’s an intimacy that podcasts can create that the written ways of talking to people just don’t.” —  Kip Boyle

Connect with Kip Boyle:  






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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



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Kip Boyle, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Kip Boyle  [00:00]

There’s an intimacy that Podcasts can create that the written ways of talking to people just don’t.


Narrator  [00:12]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:34]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a fabulous day. That shot out of a cannon today just had a crazy busy morning and now I’m in the afternoon here in Chicago. And just really excited about my guest excited about what we’re going to share with you today. Before I introduce Kip, I just want to thank our sponsors, legalese marketing, and of course, money, Penny, both are tremendous partners, for me, not only sponsors on my podcast, but also using their services and loving it every minute of the day. So thank you to them. And Kip, the quote of the day that we’re going to discuss for just a moment is marketing is a contest for people’s attention. That’s a Seth Godin quote, what does that we think about that? And welcome, by the way,


Kip Boyle  [01:18]

yeah, thanks for thanks for having me on your show. I, I love it. I love I love guesting and I love to talk to people about interesting subjects. And I, I think we’re gonna have a super interesting one today. Well, first of all, I find Seth Godin, very inspirational. So I’ll just say any any Seth Godin quote you would throw at me, I would probably, you know, react really well to in this particular case, you know, some of his quotes are a little obscure, this one’s not. And I think he’s right, I think that it’s a noisy, noisy world. And to get people’s attention is really difficult. And to do it in, in a in a way that doesn’t make you feel like a shameless huckster or a circus clown.


Steve Fretzin  [02:00]

You know? Yeah, it’s really tough. Yeah, I mean, I keep seeing people doing videos that, I don’t want to say it’s beneath them, but it’s like they’re following the road of, of someone else who did it first, like some guy walking down the road with his camera, or he’s in his car talking. And I just go, you know, I think if you’re the first guy that came up with that, maybe it’s okay. But if you’re the 100th, or the 1000. You know, maybe that’s not the way to win that contest that Seth is talking about. But yeah, I think I think we are competing for people’s attention. We’re competing in how we do that in our own unique way, in our own authentic, authentic way. I think it really matters. And so yeah, I’m trying not to just be a follower of what other people are doing. I’m trying to I don’t have it’s called a trailblazer, or just trying to be unique. And yeah, the different things that I post and the different things that I do to get people’s attention. Yeah.


Kip Boyle  [02:51]

And that is so consistent with what I hear Seth Godin telling us, right, he’s saying, you know, people want authenticity, right. And people don’t want to connect with companies, they want to connect with people, right? So if you’re being your authentic self, and and you really understand your audience, which I think is crucial, you must understand your audience. I even have a customer avatar that I think about all the time. But I think you know, if you’re authentic and you know, your your avatar, and you can talk to them in a way that that they like, Oh man, that’s magical. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [03:27]

In your in just so you guys know, this is kip Boyle. He’s the founder of cyber risk opportunities. And, and he’s also got a great podcast called cyber risk management. So give us a little background on yourself. Because you’re not an a traditional person I would have on the show meaning you’re not like a legal marketer. You’re not a rainmaker at a law firm, which is great, because I think it’s important to bring on people that are going to add another angle or definition to what you know, and how we look at business development and marketing. So give us give us that background, if you would,


Kip Boyle  [03:57]

yeah, happy to do it. Well, so where I’m at today, when I tell you what my background is, you’ll probably say I didn’t see that coming. Because I didn’t either, I’m gonna be honest with you. My I’ve spent most of my working life in systems, working with computers and networks and that sort of thing. And so, and when you work in that world, the people that you work shoulder to shoulder with are the furthest thing from marketers that you’re ever going to find, right? They have a lot of contempt for marketers, you know, to be perfectly honest with you. And I kind of did too, right. So in order for me to see myself as somebody who’s engaged in marketing these days, it’s a little bit strange, right? But anyway, that’s that’s kind of where I come from. Now. I backed into cybersecurity. I was on active duty in the Air Force. And and they assigned me to work on some highly classified weapons systems development projects and improvement projects. And so I worked in Air to Air weapons testing, I worked on the F 22, Advanced Tactical Fighter and that sort of thing. And so I kind of backed into System Protection. But my superpower isn’t my ability to, you know, make the ones and zeros dance. It really isn’t. I mean, I sort of understand how that works. But what I found my superpower ended up being I can talk about very weird cybersecurity topics to senior decision makers who don’t know anything about my field of expertise. And I can do it in a way that they can understand. And I can tee up decisions for them that they feel comfortable making. And I don’t know why I can do that. But you know, after a few years, I figured out that that was something that I knew how to do. And people really appreciated it. And so I just kept doing it. And so what that ultimately led to was me launching my own company, cyber risk opportunities, because because there was just this big appetite for people who wanted to senior decision makers, right, who wanted to know what their cyber risks are. And they wanted to make good decisions, but without having to become an expert. So they wanted to talk to somebody who could talk, like they talk in ordinary business language, about something that was important to them that they didn’t understand. And so I’ve taken this, you know, I’ve stumbled on this superpower. And here I am, I’ve made it a whole business side of it. We started in 2015. Now, how did I become a marketer? Well, it’s amazing what you’ll do when you need to put food on the table.


Steve Fretzin  [06:23]

Yeah, I’ve got the chicken, but I don’t have the money for the potatoes.


Kip Boyle  [06:26]

Yeah. And so it really Mother, will they say necessity is the mother of invention, right. And so my first take at marketing was really to partner up with somebody. And so that’s what I did in the beginning, I partnered up with a marketer, I pocketed partnered up with a salesperson. And by partnered, I don’t mean like, gave them half my business. What I mean is I just, you know, I found somebody that I trusted. And I said, please help me do this. And and would you please take the lion’s share of the work? And you know, I’ll contract with you, and I’ll pay you. But what I learned from doing that, Steve, is that as the business owner, it didn’t work. Because these folks were were technically competent, no doubt about it, great people, but they couldn’t talk to my customers the way that I needed to talk to them, no matter what I did, I couldn’t get them to talk like Kip. And so at the end of the all that experimentation, that’s what I realized is that I could you know, do okay, but if I wanted to do really well, if I wanted to help the most people that I could, I had to be the chief marketer. And so I said, Alright, fine, I surrender. And I spent 18 months, that almost from the time the pandemic began, in the winter of 2020, is, that’s when I started grabbing the marketing books. And I said, Alright, I’m just going to start reading these books, I went all the way back to the beginning of modern marketing. And I started reading the foundational books of modern marketing, which were actually published in the late 1800s, and early 1900s, all the way up to Seth Godin, and all kinds of other people. And I just said, I’m going to immerse myself in this for 18 months. And I’m going to figure it out. I like what works for me. And so that’s what I did. And actually, it’s only been in the last probably six months that I would say that I feel like, I really understand marketing for cyber risk opportunities, which doesn’t mean I understand marketing for everybody. But that’s where I was able to get to. But I


Steve Fretzin  [08:19]

think what it shows and demonstrates is understanding where there’s a deficit or the necessity, and then taking ownership of it. And for lawyers that are listening. I mean, this is the same thing with marketing and business development, you know, it, it’s fine to do the work, it’s fine to be a great lawyer, but at the end of the day, you know, it’s you think, and you might be under the umbrella of your firm, but you have to bring in the business. That’s what leads to control. That’s what leads to independence and having a life that you really signed, I


Kip Boyle  [08:47]

tell you a story. I want to tell you a story. Because when you and I first talked about hiccup, you know, what do you think you want to be in my podcast? And I and I was I was thinking to myself, well, you know, what do I have in common with your audience? Right. And I want to tell you a story about something that I think has commonality and a lesson that I learned that I think could be helpful. So for a little while, after I left the Air Force, I worked at Stanford Research, and I was a consultant. And I had a mentor who has somebody had been there for a long, long time. He took me on a sales call. One time, I was based in San Francisco with him, we flew to New Jersey we made and we made a sales call at a very big, very prestigious customer. And we were sitting in the lobby and and I was looking around because we were waiting to be shown in and I looked at my mentor and I said, Doug, why did you bring me on this trip? This seems like kind of a waste of money to have me here. And I could be doing so many other things. And I don’t feel right about this also, because I’m not in sales, right. And so he heard me vent for a few moments and he paused and he looked at me and he said, Kip, you’re here not because I want you to be a professional sales. person, what I want for you is to be a professional who sells. Nice. Yeah. Oh my god, that little bit of mentoring flipped the script for me forever. And lawyers are professionals, right?


Steve Fretzin  [10:19]

In town terrified of sales and terrified of ever being seen as a sales or so


Kip Boyle  [10:23]

was I right terrified and all I could think of right was the used car salesperson the the gaudy sport jackets and the you know the sleazy behaviors, right. And this is what my head was full of, and, and my mentor just cut all that away, and showed me that you could be a professional who sells and serves people in the process. Right. And that has been so important. That was such a tremendous foundation that I’ve been building on.


Steve Fretzin  [10:55]

That is absolutely huge. And I if you don’t mind, I tend to take things a step further. That’s just just one that’s my superpower, maybe. But I you know, people that know me know that I teach a process called sales Free selling. And what lawyers don’t understand is that I’m actually teaching them how to not sell. So it’s like you can be a professional and you don’t have to sell well then what’s left? Well, things like qualifying research, question and building relationships, questioning, listening, empathy, identification of problems and the depth that they go. In what point does that mean sales, those the things I just mentioned, the words I just use have nothing to do with the word sales or selling, presenting, pitching, convincing, right? That’s what lawyers think and what you may have in your past thought of what’s in by the way, that’s what sales was. That’s how I came up in the 90s. My bosses told me, literally do not take no for an answer. They said that don’t let them leave. Don’t take no for an answer, please. They also tell you the coffee’s for closers coffee’s for closers that went back. They showed me that movie until my eyes bled. No, but it’s it’s right Glengarry Glen Ross. The point is, is that that’s back in the day when sales didn’t get a negative name. But it also was the only thing we had.


Kip Boyle  [12:14]

And you know what, I still see it today. Okay, when I was operating as a chief information security officer at an insurance company, I did that for seven years. And I felt like a gazelle on the on the Serengeti, being hunted by packs of you know, flesh eating lions, because I would get cold called sure mercilessly, I would get FedEx packages in unexpectedly in the mail full of confetti and, and self running videos. And oh, my goodness, yeah, I mean, I was absolutely being hunted. And so that did not help my perception of what it meant to sell.


Steve Fretzin  [12:54]

Well, that if we’re going back to Seth, Seth Godin is quote about the contest, you know, I think those people might may not have realized that the contest has changed. And that the traditional ways, and maybe maybe they’re still successful with it, but I know, like, an insurance company name not to be said, you know, their big claim to fame was, you know, they’d send out these young bucks and say, Hey, every time you meet with someone get 10 names. So P, some people know who I’m talking about. I’m not gonna say the name. But I mean, I’m just meeting you, for the first time you’re an insurance salesman, we’re spending 30 minutes at a coffee shop, and you want me to give you every name of my family and friends, so I can then attack them. And that’s somehow worked. Oh, my back in the 80s 90s, maybe early 2000s.


Kip Boyle  [13:35]

Yeah, well, everything’s changed, right? I mean, like, I have a sales consultant that I work with right now. Because I want to get good, right? I want to serve I mean, that’s, I understand my motivation is to serve, there is a lot of pain out there. People don’t know how to deal with this cyber risk stuff, and I want to serve them, okay, that’s my motivation. But I’m working with a sales consultant. And, and she’s telling me, like, hip don’t do any of this stuff, like the world has changed. And if you do these things, you know, that are, you know, the selling techniques of yesteryear, like you’re gonna fail. Not only that, but I won’t work with you. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [14:09]

I mean, one of my first best success stories before I even thought about working with lawyers, was a cybersecurity guy who had his own business. He was using the traditional model of sales go in and pitch. What he didn’t have behind him was the big name company that it used to have, you know, he was with the big you know, the Deloitte type of organization. Now, he’s on his own. And he was just getting run around free consulting run around all the time. Yeah, he went through my program, and he executed on those things, and within a very short amount of time, realized how much time he was wasting, spinning his wheels getting dragged through the mud right by everyone that wanted his free information. And he started to qualify people in or out, they’re serious. They’re interested, I understand their needs. I solve these things, or move them out because they’re not really going to move forward or take action.


Kip Boyle  [14:58]

You really served him, didn’t you? Well. Yeah, you’ve really served him, you really created real value for him because you were able to help him figure out how to stop, you know, stabbing in the dark. Yeah, and getting there and getting the runaround. Oh, that’s fantastic. But


Steve Fretzin  [15:12]

but like lawyers, you’re you don’t have a process for marketing, you don’t have a process for business development you ran just walking around, you know, poking around in the dark. And that’s not really an effective way to spend your time and time is like our most valuable resource asset, etc.


Kip Boyle  [15:28]

And what’s really interesting is, is that people think that it’s that it’s an either or, right? Either I stumble around and do it that way. Or I put on the crazy sport coat and start acting, you know, like a fool trying to sell that, you know, I mean, certainly, that’s where I thought, you know, I thought those are the only two choices, you know, maybe Which one do you want to you know, which one do you want? I didn’t understand that. There were other ways to go. And, and especially in this day and age, like my podcast, right, like you, thank you, you told everybody when we first started talking that I have a podcast, yeah, oh, my goodness, my podcast is such an important part of my marketing. And, and because I all I’m really doing is I’m just having a conversation with people who feel that what I have to say is helping them with their, with their pain points and the problems that they’re that they’re struggling with. And it’s a megaphone, but not in a brash, obnoxious way. It’s just, it’s a paradox, really, of modern life where I can whisper into the ears of 1000s of prospective customers. And, and then when they’re ready to work with me, they just throw up their hand and say, Can we talk? Oh, my gosh, so powerful.


Jordan Ostroff  [16:47]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:36]

Yeah, I think that if we’re transitioning into, you know, the marketing channel that we both happen to do very well, I think is the podcasting. And is podcasting for everybody? Certainly not. But there’s a number of advantages. You’ve already mentioned a few of podcasting. And I think it’s important for people to understand, what are some of the advantages that it has that maybe some other because I’ve been writing for you I’ve written now for books, I’ve got a regular monthly article. In the Chicago Daily law bulletin, I’m writing for the impact lawyers, which is an international legal publication. So that’s all happening. And that’s great. And that’s all supportive of my brand and of of my content that I want to provide to the community, the podcast, honestly, it’s a whole other level that I think I think people don’t understand. It’s so much better in some ways than other marketing channels. You speak to that? Yeah, absolutely.


Kip Boyle  [18:28]

There’s an intimacy, that Podcasts can create that the written ways of talking to people just don’t, I want to illustrate this point by by sharing another story. I had a guy send me an email the other day, this is like in November, I think, and I just out of the blue is cold email came into my inbox, and it was so glad it wasn’t, you know, like filtered into spam or something like that. And, and he said, Hi, Kip, my name is so and so. And I listened to your podcast. And I don’t know if you do this sort of thing. But I think you could help me this is my problem. So I wrote back and said, Absolutely, I would love to speak with you. Yes, I absolutely am interested. So we so we got on a zoom call. And right away. It was kind of it was it was really kind of a cool experience for me, because I’ve never had like celebrity treatment before. But the guy’s like, I can’t believe I’m talking to you right now. This is so cool. And I said, calm down. It’s fine. He goes, No, no, no, you don’t understand. He said, You don’t know how many car rides we’ve been on? Yeah, think about that. Yeah, no, I


Steve Fretzin  [19:34]

I’m like you’re right. Like I’m, you know, how many times have I listened to a Joe Rogan? Or, you know, Conan O’Brien has a really funny one. And like, I don’t you know, I don’t know. But you just, it’s, there’s You’re right about that. That word is so great intimacy, that there’s a relationship that gets established between a podcast host or someone that’s running a podcast and the audience individually and you don’t know that it’s hot. pinning, that’s right. Because it’s not until someone says something like that. Yes.


Kip Boyle  [20:03]

And it’s not about me feeling like a celebrity, I want to be clear about that. It’s not, what isn’t? How


Steve Fretzin  [20:09]

can we go a little bit?


Kip Boyle  [20:11]

Look, I’m not pushing it away. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make, right? That I’m trying to make is, is this is somebody who invested in understanding what I had to offer, and did it in a way that could that I that, if I could scale myself, I would have done right, if I could have gotten into this guy’s current and taken several car trips with him, and just shot the breeze and just listen to him, you know, talk about, you know, what his concerns were, I would have done it, I can’t, I didn’t even know who he was. But he was able to connect with me. And then self select, think about it, think about all the things I didn’t have to do in order to get him to, to, to consider me as somebody who could help him. He did it all on his on his own. All I did was consistently published an authentic version of me, that that he could listen to, whenever it was convenient for him. I mean, I just, I just want to say like the podcast is doing all this heavy lifting. And all I have to do is show up and talk about thoughtful things that my buyers are interested in. And then I can show up and be generous. I’d love it. Right I giveaway, giveaway, giveaway giveaway, and people are attracted to that. Yeah. Oh my gosh, you know, I’m building relationships. And I’m building them at scale. And I’m doing it with authenticity.


Steve Fretzin  [21:33]

Yeah, it’s great. And the other the other piece of it. So there’s the relationship with the audience. And I hope that I’m doing that I don’t always know because it’s sort of a silent thing until someone says something, but Trump, but but the relationship with with the guests. I mean, I’m thinking about the 150 guests that I’ve had on in the last two years, and how I’m staying in touch with them. Some of them, some of them become my clients. They’re actually lawyers who, you know, we have a separate conversation about what I’m doing. And they’d love to talk to me about that. And we end up working something out on other in other circumstances, they’re a vendor, and now I’ve got a great new strategic partner that I can refer and they can refer me and it’s it. I think that’s the piece that I just never expected. But it’s it’s just right there. I mean, even talking with you, Kip. Like, I feel like yeah, we can, we can refer each other we can be buddies, like we can go win. And I come out to Seattle and see you and like Yeah, right. Like there’s something going on in the in this in the podcast, interview space that’s unique.


Kip Boyle  [22:31]

It’s human. It’s human connecting with humans in a human way, at scale, which is what makes it amazing. And I think for attorneys, I want to be clear about this. I think podcasting is particularly attuned for attorneys, because well, let’s face it, attorneys, a lot of them like to talk. And they have lots of really interesting things to say. I think I’m so convinced of this, and I don’t think you’ve mentioned it yet, but I want your audience to know it. My co host is an attorney. There you go. Okay, no gates, right. Yeah, his name’s Jake Bernstein. He works at Cornell gates, and he is my podcast co host. We have been producing this making and producing this podcast for four years now. We’re just about to record our 100th episode, released every two weeks. And, and he’s a marvelous co host. And, and so, you know, I just think, if he can do it, and do it as well, as he does that, I just think that’s, you know, prima facia evidence that, you know, it’s possible for most every attorney who, who thinks that this could work for them.


Steve Fretzin  [23:41]

And I think the other thing that we have to just bring up and I don’t know your situation, but I’ll tell everyone mine, and maybe you’ve heard this before. I’m not really doing the production. People think that I have to figure all this out. And I’ve got, yeah, there’s some upfront stuff you got to do. You got to come up with a name and you got to, you got to work through, like, what is the show all about and all that, but there are now hundreds of production companies and I’m using turnkey podcast out in LA and they’re phenomenal. But I record this with you. I upload it to a software, and I’m basically out. Yeah, like I then just can’t be that easy. It could be that easy. And yeah, getting guests. Is that a problem? You believe it or not? It’s not for me. I mean, I’m getting people regularly reaching out to me that want to be on my show. I’m getting introductions like I got to you Kip through one of my friends and clients Mark Rockwell shout out to mark Rockwell. Yeah, Mark, Roy, it’s all there. Right? We just we just but you have to, you have to commit to giving it some time. You have to decide it’s a weekly show, right? Show whatever. And then you got to decide that yeah, I’m gonna do this and be consistent with like anything. It’s all about consistency.


Kip Boyle  [24:49]

It is it is absolutely true. People you do have to do a little bit homework going into it like you said, you have to understand what are the critical success factors and One of the most one of the biggest critical success factors that people don’t understand. And it’s really easy when once you know it, and you commit to it is that you have to, you have to be consistent. If you tell your audience I’m going to publish every other Friday at noon, great, they, they’ll, that’s fine. You don’t have to do it weekly, you don’t have to be a daily, I don’t think that’d be a monthly, but if every other week is what you can do, all you have to do is tell your audience, that’s what you’re going to do. And they’ll say, Great, I’m there. What you don’t want to do is tell them every other Friday at noon, and then blow it right released the episode late or maybe not released an episode at all. Now, the way we dealt with that, in case anybody’s interested is, is we’re three episodes ahead at all times. Yep. So that no matter what happens, like client, emergency, whatever, we have three episodes in the can that six weeks of of buffer time, so we can absorb any craziness in our schedules, serving clients or whatever, and still produce something that’s consistently available for for our listeners.


Steve Fretzin  [26:03]

Yeah, and I’ll wrap it up, and then I want your your commentary on this. But the other piece of it is a big part of marketing and winning that contest, as Godin referenced, you know, in his quote is, it’s a contest, it’s a contest for content, writing, podcasting, speaking, getting your name out there in a positive way, educating people and putting out really good content is sort of the way to build a business today, more so than a lot of other things. So I think this is another piece of how you can get it transcribed and put it on the back end your website, how you can break it up into pieces and put it out on social like as all these other elements to it. Can you see this ad and then we’ll kind of wrap up with the fiasco.


Kip Boyle  [26:46]

Okay, so I refer to this as digital butchery. Okay. Let me tell you why. Because I make a podcast. And then what I do is I hand it over to a specialist who butchers it. In other words, I want this podcast to be turned into 25 pieces of content, I want some of that content to be one to two minute clips of video that I can put on YouTube in order to like, you know, capture the attention of YouTube folks. And so that they can become listeners, I want a LinkedIn article that I can post as a new kind of like as a newsletter based on excerpts, because the podcast gets transcribed and you know, we can get it in written form, I want a couple of pull quotes that I can put onto social media, whether I’m a Twitter user, or LinkedIn user, or Facebook user, whatever, wherever I think my audience is. And so you know, that way, you know, think about it, you, you make one podcast episode, and then you cut it up, and you distribute it. And for the next two weeks, you’re not doing anything that you know, like all the heavy lifting has been done, because you have somebody who can pull it apart and turn it into all these little pieces of micro content and release it for two weeks. And then you make your next episode. And I just think that’s the most, you know, sit so efficient, and it’s so effective. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [28:06]

And listen, if you’re out there listening, and you think maybe a podcast is for you, I mean, I’ll give you 20 minutes of my time just to like talk through the concept talk through the title, the thought what the show is, and you know, I’ll help you work it out. Like I’m not afraid I enjoy the creative side of titling a show titling a book coming up with a concept like that. I enjoy that. That’s fun. For me. It’s that creative side that I don’t always get to use every day in every every scenario. But listen, man, really awesome stuff. And I know you’re inspiring people. I’m feeling feeling really good about about our conversation so far. Let’s move to the three best stuff and I I was out in Seattle. I know a few years ago before the pandemic I know for three, four years ago for my 15th wedding anniversary must be three years then. And I loved it. I love the food. I love the areas gorgeous. If I was to come out and visit you what’s your favorite like place to eat? Where do we have to go?


Kip Boyle  [29:03]

So I have to tell you something really unfortunate about restaurants. There have been some amazing restaurants that have shuttered forever in Seattle because of the pandemic and the quarantines. And so a lot of my favorite restaurants from a long time are just gone, which is awful, and I feel bad for the restaurant tours. And I feel bad for for me, because, you know, some of this was truly yummy and great experiences. But I’ll tell you one place that’s kind of local. I live outside of the Seattle area about 20 miles outside and then we’ve got a local place called Wild wheat bakery. And it’s a cafe and so you go in there and they have all the tables and doing fine as far as like their business right they’re still in business right? But they’re an actual bakery so you’ve got all the baked goods and everything you know when you when you check out from eating and and they just serve some amazing food. I would definitely take you there. I’m going there next Wednesday morning. Hang with with a with a guy that I’ve recently met on online that I want to get to know. I take my son down there we meet up. It’s a fav of mine.


Steve Fretzin  [30:08]

Yeah. Is that dumpling place that was in like in a mall? Is that still around? Yeah,


Kip Boyle  [30:13]

it didn’t iPhone.


Steve Fretzin  [30:14]

Oh my god i It’s awesome went there twice like we we go out and we only have three days in Seattle but we went there twice because we were just so blown away. It’s


Kip Boyle  [30:22]

amazing. It’s amazing. That is a favorite of mine as well. The difference is, is that they’re a little more industrial right now. Whereas wild we bakery is like there’s only one of them. It’s this little place, you know, but didn’t iPhones? Oh, it’s in fact, Jake and I went there to have lunch to celebrate our 50th podcast episode when we were like, where are we going to go? Didn’t I? I’ll see you there.


Steve Fretzin  [30:48]

Yeah, no brainer on that. And then and then you know, coming out to visit What’s something you have to see have to do as a tourist as someone that’s visiting Seattle.


Kip Boyle  [30:56]

You know, it may seem hackneyed, but the space needle, you guys go to the Space Needle, it’s a unique piece of architecture. It’s a unique experience to right up in the glass elevators. You know the Wonka Vader maybe, you know, that’s what I think about sometimes they recently read, they renovated it. So when you go up there, nowadays, the walls are floor to ceiling glass. Right? So just unparalleled views of the surrounding area. And and there’s a restaurant up there, you should you should have a meal there. I mean, a lot of people don’t know this. I don’t know if you do. But the restaurant at the top of the Space Needle is a revolving restaurant. And over though that but that’s yeah, that’s beautiful. Over the course of eating a meal, you spend like an hour, hour and a half, you’ll get 360 degrees of revolution, maybe a little bit more. And you see everything and you say,


Steve Fretzin  [31:44]

Okay, very cool, very cool. And then what are the tourists into? What are not the tourists? What are the locals into I should say, how are they keeping busy during the pandemic? And what’s the what’s sort of been the hot thing?


Kip Boyle  [31:54]

We’re going outdoors? Yeah, outdoors is the place to be Now, the thing about people who live in Seattle is we’re outdoors people anyway. Yeah. Okay. But when the quarantine started, we went crazy outdoors, because it was the only safe place to be. Right time. Lots of fresh air. We’ve got all manner of outdoor activities. So like this time of the year, January. Okay. I here’s the thing in January in Seattle, you can get up in the morning. You can go scuba diving in Puget Sound, right, which is, which is a big ocean inlet here. And then you can get cleaned up, go have a fabulous lunch, grab your skis and go up to the mountains and nightsky Wow,


Steve Fretzin  [32:36]

that sounds awesome. In January.


Kip Boyle  [32:37]



Steve Fretzin  [32:39]

In people complain about the rain. It’s not it’s not what they say it is.


Kip Boyle  [32:43]

Okay. Look, it does rain here. Okay, here’s the thing, right? Yeah, drizzles. Okay. Tampa, Florida gets more rain per year than Seattle does. Okay. As an example. Right? The difference is, is that in Tampa, every day is rain is dumped in 10 minutes at 5pm.


Steve Fretzin  [32:58]

Yeah. And you guys are getting drizzle over a number of hours. We get it


Kip Boyle  [33:02]

in 24 hours spitting on us all day.


Steve Fretzin  [33:05]

Right. Right. Well, listen, very cool. Great having you on the show, and then sharing your wisdom. And just it’s been a lot of fun. And if people want to reach out to you learn more about what you do in cyber, lots of lawyers listening that need help with cyber for their firms. And for the companies they represent. How do they reach you?


Kip Boyle  [33:22]

Yeah, so lawyers are actually my number one referral source, I’m very easy, very easy to find. So if you just go on LinkedIn, and type my name, Kip Boyle in the search box, I think I’m the only Kipper in the world. Certainly, I’m the only one on LinkedIn. So it’s very easy to find me. If you Google me my name, I’ll come up very quickly. So you can find me, you can find me there, you could maybe listen to my podcast episode. And in the show notes, there’s contact information. So I’m very easy. And I would love I would love to talk to you happy to talk about podcasting about marketing as a as a as a professional services function, right? Somebody who’s who’s trying to serve in a b2b capacity, not a problem. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [34:03]

Well, that’s very generous, and I appreciate it. Yeah, all of your information will be in the show notes as well. So listen, you know, good stuff, man. This has been fun. I just I enjoyed talking to you and feel like we should do a show because I feel like we got a we got a really good synergy going here. So let’s do a separate show.


Kip Boyle  [34:18]

I love that idea. But I have to be I have to be honest with myself. I already have two podcasts.


Steve Fretzin  [34:23]

Oh, you do? What’s the second one?


Kip Boyle  [34:26]

So the second one is, there’s a lot of people out there who are trying to get cybersecurity jobs. We have this massive deficit. We have more we have more funded cybersecurity jobs in this country than we have qualified people. And it’s a big problem. And so I decided I was going to help by starting a podcast that is targeted to helping people change careers and get into cybersecurity. Yeah. So and we’re about to we just went over episode 50 on that one. And I love it. Nice. Yeah, third podcast. I don’t know it’s no


Steve Fretzin  [34:57]

no, no. I don’t want to I don’t want to I don’t Want to hurt you anyway? But I don’t know that guy, you know, there might be a second one on on on tap for me. I just got to come up with what it is and why and all that, but I enjoy it. I just did. I love the conversations I love, it’s great and forth and I needed a lot of fun. It


Kip Boyle  [35:14]

keeps me smart, right? It keeps me like in touch with what’s going on in the world. You know, it’s so it develops me professionally, right? I’ve learned things that I can then take to my clients and serve them better. Yeah, can I can I say one more thing about podcasting, please. I’m an I’m a terrible podcaster when I’m all alone is one of the things that I discovered. I have to have a co host in order to keep the energy levels up. If if anybody in your audience is thinking like there’s no way I’m gonna podcast on my own, because, you know, I just don’t think I can carry it. Hey, guilty. I’ve been there and a partner get a partner.


Steve Fretzin  [35:47]

Yeah, that’s a good it’s a great idea. And it’s a great way to also get motivated to get it done because I think people just have difficulty when they’re busy. This to sell start on something. Accountability is accountability. Yeah. Well, thanks again, man. I appreciate it. You’re welcome. Thanks for having me here. And everybody. Thank you for spending some time with Kip and I today. Hopefully you got a couple of good nuggets. I know. I’ve gotten my usual page of notes and some some really good takeaways. And I know some things I’m going to do out in Seattle on extend might come out. For sure. Listen, everybody be well be safe. You know, it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Take care of the safety well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [36:29]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes