In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kory Kelly discuss:
- Value in productized, turnkey solutions.
- Legal Karma is not a robot lawyer, it is a change of delivery.
- Making changes now, not waiting for the speed of business.
- It’s more about communication than it is about document drafting.
- Giving your client insight as to what is going on and expectations can ease a lot of stress from you and your client.
- Changes in the legal market (such as non-lawyer owned law firms) makes it worthwhile to look at the delivery of your legal services.
“Make the change now. Moving at the speed of business takes a long time to change these processes and make sense out of it to get the brand recognition and marketing in place that helps you leverage some of the new gifts that come with modernizing the delivery of your practice.” — Kory Kelly
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
law firms, attorneys, legal, lawyer, productized, austin, business, legal services, clients, people, document, services, matter, automation, cases, karma, billable hour, hear, future, listeners
Kory Kelly, Narrator, Steve Fretzin
Kory Kelly [00:00]
making the change now, I think is probably your best bet. Because moving at the speed of business, it takes a long time to change these processes at your firm to retrain your staff for you to even make sense out of it to get brand recognition and marketing in place that helps you leverage some of the new gifts that come with modernizing the delivery of your practice.
Your listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a fabulous day. I know I am. It’s Friday, and it’s gorgeous here in Chicago. You may not be hearing this until November, but right now we’re sitting in what September? And September? No, yes. And this a blessed day, September, I think. And anyway, I don’t think you care about the date so much. But listen, you know, it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and skilled Rainmaker, and we have to pay attention to the future, we have to pay attention to what’s coming up the pike, look at the software, look at the advances that are happening in legal tech. And if you’re not paying attention, you’re going to find that that the world is going to run by you. And you’re you’re still living in the past, using yellow pages and waiting for the phone to ring. So that’s no good. So I’ve got a great guest for you today that’s going to talk some legal tech, and he’s going to show us some cool software that he’s developed. And we’re gonna learn all about the future of law and technology. That is Corey Kelly. He’s the CEO of legal karma. How’s it going, Cory?
Kory Kelly [01:49]
I’m doing really well. Pleasure to be here.
Steve Fretzin [01:51]
Yeah, you’re like a super chill guy. Man. You must. You must be like a surfer. And you’re part time out surfing.
Kory Kelly [01:57]
Living in Austin. I’ll do that. Okay. Okay.
Steve Fretzin [02:00]
They said Austin is more progressive than even the most progressive liberal side of Chicago. Is that the case? Is it? I don’t know. That’s what I’m hearing.
Kory Kelly [02:08]
I’ve not been to much of Chicago. I’ve kind of done the downtown area, maybe near the National Art Institute. I think it’s called the loop.
Steve Fretzin [02:17]
The loop? Yeah, it’s got the Art Institute in the loop. Yes. Very cool. Very cool stuff. But I don’t know if that’s just like people that say like, Austin isn’t really like it doesn’t feel like taxes. I know it is taxes. But is that is that the case or not?
Kory Kelly [02:32]
Yeah, you know, Texans, I think traditional tax and see Ben when you’re the one kind of Blue City. And when you’re the blueberry and the cherry pie. Some of the cherry seeps in around the blueberry. But largely, it does hit different. I mean, Austin is really comprised of outdoor activities, and country music, I think is still probably the main music that you’ll hear and maybe some interesting riffs on country music. So it’s still Texas, but like, it’s a Texas that people really like.
Steve Fretzin [03:05]
Okay, well, we’re gonna come back to hear more about Austin in the in the three best of later in the show. But give a little background on yourself as someone who’s you know, younger than me, for sure. And in the legal tech space, how did you get started in that?
Kory Kelly [03:19]
Yeah, I knew I wanted to build a company that improves the lives of others. That’s something I’ve always been passionate about. And like, I always wanted to spend my time doing legal karma. I found it. The first time I heard that 80% of Americans couldn’t get access to legal services, I was really struck by that statistic and thought, you know, how does this $400 billion industry have issues serving most of the people who need service. And it turns out that most of the people who need services aren’t large corporations, they’re people whose liberties are at stake. And unfortunately, those people are a little less profitable to serve. And so there’s kind of this interesting dichotomy as I dug into, I’m I’m not an attorney, I’m a technologist and business person by trade. So digging in and really understanding some of the nuances and incentives that come with the billable hour and rule 5.4. That’s being changed today, Mike kind of came home to to what legal karma is today and legal karma modernizes and improves the delivery of legal services. And so I think that’s, that’s our current play. We’re getting into law firms. And there’s this unique niche that’s not being filled by the practice management tools of the world, the marketing CRMs of the world. It’s actually a client collaboration and management tool. It’s can be an app on your phone for your clients. It’s a place for them to log in, make sense out of what’s going on in their matter and also take actions done that you need them to do and get information to you quickly. There’s also, I think, an even more interesting application here, which is probably more of my radical All ideas, I think for the legal industry, but they’re not unique. I think other people think this. And I think that’s this concept of legal products and productizing, turnkey services where you shouldn’t be making a lawyer shouldn’t be charging 1500 bucks for an LLC operating agreement. I mean, I think there’s some really turnkey things that are maybe what I would name artificial value. And there’s a large market out there for people who have money, and but don’t maybe have, you know, an unknown amount of high price billable hours to spend on something that need these productized services. But before law firms are ready to deliver productized services and be modern and be competitive. First, they have to change the way that they deliver services. And I think that’s what’s antiquated. So that’s a little bit of a jump in how I got started, and what we wanted to do, and maybe also a little bit about what legal karma does.
Steve Fretzin [05:54]
So it’s not, you know, replacing, you know, lawyers or legal services in in a lot of different categories. But there are some categories where it’s, you know, where you’re where there, there should be automation, and there should be some advancement in how things get done efficiently and affordably. Is that really the case?
Kory Kelly [06:15]
Yeah, I think you’re hitting it. I think we’re in no way is this replacing strategic legal work? I think it’s the right way to think about it is, imagine a world where you can deliver legal services with the efficiency of a software company, maybe like Legal Zoom, but you have the full legitimacy and quality of an actual attorney.
Steve Fretzin [06:35]
Yeah. And it’s funny, because I was just talking to a lawyer yesterday, who is in real in residential real estate, and he’s trying to figure out a better way to deliver residential real estate closings without having to be so so invested in time and all that all the documents and all that stuff. Is that is that an area that you guys are focusing on? Or is that is that? Not so much? Yeah,
Kory Kelly [07:01]
that’s exactly what we do. Absolutely. It’s the no code builder to, you know, create a digital front porch for your law firm. And, you know, for some of the attorneys, we do it for them. And for some of them, they they’ve got consultants that set it up for them. But that’s exactly what it is, I think what firms are seeing is with, especially marked with the digital changes of 2021 and 2020, the delivery of legal services is coming with new expectations that maybe weren’t there before. And law firms who don’t modernize and don’t change, you’re going to they’re going to feel that pressure. And I think we all know some of the consequences of, of not being adaptable in business. It’s also a matter of competition, I mean, legal tech products that are b2c. So to be clear, we’re a b2b, legal tech product, we sell our software to law firms, we don’t sell to consumers, that law firms are selling theirs, their services to consumers. And there are other legal tech products that are selling similar services to consumers that are doing it at rapid efficiency, and much lower prices. And so I think there’s something to be said, for having the quality and credibility of actually having an attorney deliver the service. And I think it’s a no brainer, why would you not improve the deliverability of it as well, so you can be competitive?
Steve Fretzin [08:25]
Well, yeah. And the argument from the attorneys would be, you know, if I’m paying on the billable hour, and you’re coming up with efficiencies, then I’m going to make less money. And that’s that mentality is probably the potential demise of some some of the, you know, the future of legal I would guess, right?
Kory Kelly [08:43]
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s changes that are coming to that. And I also think there are a few different maybe use cases here or perspectives here. If you’re an MLA 200 or even an LA 500. I don’t even maybe you can, NY 1000. If you’re a really big law firm, you probably okay, you’re probably not feeling this pressure, yet. You’ve got some really big clients that are funding your endeavors. And those big clients aren’t going to log into a portal. And those big clients don’t need productized legal services, their legal departments might start doing some of that, but you’re on it, you’re making your money off of that billable hour. So there’s no incentive there. I do think there is an incentive to be I think there’s I think there isn’t a business incentive for launching new revenue streams at these large firms. For example, companies that are seeking investments, want to show that they have a prestigious law firm, managing their contracts, making sure they’re protected, setting them up for success. But these companies, businesses cannot afford $800 An hour $1,000 An hour. That’s a really irresponsible use of their funds when they’re so small, but it doesn’t mean that one day they won’t be great. So I think there’s a lot have value in creating productized turnkey solutions for these larger firms. So you can tap into that market that you’re failing to tap into today, while still keeping cost of production efficient. And what that’s going to do in the long term one, you’re still making money, and you’re doing it through a product. So it’s not costing you very much man hours. And you’re also building a meaningful pipeline of work over the years. So when these do when these larger clients, and when the smaller clients do start to find success, you’re going to be their law firm of choice. Of course, like, they don’t want to find a new lawyer, that sucks. You’ve got to inform them and get them caught up to speed and transition everything over. They don’t want to do that. Right.
Steve Fretzin [10:41]
So well, let’s do this, let’s let’s, let’s get an example of a client that you’re currently working with, and what they were looking for what you did for them, and what sort of been the results so far. So give, give in your space, give, don’t have to give the name of the firm, but give, like give an example so that the people listening can really get a clear idea of what we’re talking about here.
Kory Kelly [11:05]
Yeah, that checks out. Okay. I think there’s two use cases, I think there’s maybe a use case that’s more centric to a longer life cycle of a matter of like, say, a litigation, maybe a contested divorce or something like that. And then there’s maybe something more transactional,
Steve Fretzin [11:23]
like a one and done, like a contract or something like that. Yeah, like a
Kory Kelly [11:27]
contract centric relationship. Okay. So I think there’s two use cases are presented differently. And so the legal karmas mission is to modernize the delivery of legal services. And I think fundamentally, those two things are a little different. But either way, there’s still a way to productize those processes. For example, look at Hello, divorce. Obviously, we all know about Legal Zoom. So these are, these are the in this way, this is what we are doing at law firms to make it really tangible. So for example, there’s a business firm in Australia that we’re working with that wanted to do exactly this, they wanted to introduce a new revenue stream at their law firm via a subscription and flat fee model to start to win parts of the market that are going to Legal Zoom. Everybody’s got different opinions about the ethical violations that are or are not being broken by Legal Zoom. That’s that’s but what we can all agree on is Legal Zoom is tapping into a market that needs legal services that’s not receiving them today. So we go into this firm, we create a portal for them, this portal is typically portal dot law firm.com, we make it for them. And on the back end, attorneys are able to set up what we call matter templates. And matter templates are kind of the playbook for how every matter is going to go broken down into milestones and tasks, who’s going to do them. It also comes with cloud based document drafting automation software. So you’re cutting down massively on and you associate those document drafting automations with those matter templates, so new business joins, instead of having to create new matters, having to create new tasks, figure out who’s going to do it pull in the documents, all you do is you go into your you go into legal Carmen, and you create new matter, select matters from templates, and you pull in new business formation, LLC. And then you assign that to them. And it’s going to populate the entire playbook to to do that. And you can also group other matters as part of it, for example, contracts, and it’s the same play. So that’s one way and users care your clients and the clients of the law firm can look on, they can open up apps on their phone, or they can log into the portal on their computer, and they can see what you’re doing. They can see where it is they can see what they need to be providing to you. And it’s a really elegant experience. It’s not kind of like a crappy document repository like you get with everybody else. It’s like a TurboTax. It’s really an elegant walkthrough.
Steve Fretzin [14:01]
Well, I think that the the communication of where things are, what’s next, what do you need for me? What are you doing next? Like if that’s like, it’s the issues that happen in matters, I think a lot of them come down to poorly set expectations and lack of communication, right. So if you’re solving for those two things, that’s a big part of what creates a positive experience or negative experience for a client of a law firm.
Kory Kelly [14:30]
Exactly right. Because there’s going to be if a law firm is having to continue to charge for edits that they’re making to a document that the client feels like they were clear about the first time there’s going to be a rep there.
Steve Fretzin [14:43]
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that’s that’s an example of a one and done situation or no, then that’s an example of an ongoing matter.
Kory Kelly [14:54]
I wouldn’t I would say that the probably the actual two buckets to think about is is it Is it a long lifecycle? Or is it a short lifecycle? Is it a contract based point that people can do whatever
Steve Fretzin [15:07]
contract is would be the example of the short, it’s a contract and work on it together. It’s knocked out and I’ve got a contract. Exactly right. Okay. The other one’s going to be like, Wouldn’t what a divorce be an example of that?
Kory Kelly [15:18]
Yes, exactly. A divorce. And I think a really great example is is and the I’m not reinventing the wheel here, this is exactly what Hello divorce is doing. IF listeners have heard of Hello, divorce, clear divorce is a productized, divorce filing. And it comes with options A, B, and C, it comes with the do it yourself that comes with the do it yourself, and then we’ll review it and then it comes with, we’ll help you along the way package. And that’s genius. And it’s totally compensated, it’s based on averages of how much cases are typically worth. And it’s fully productized, it is very it is they have changed effectively the delivery of that legal service, and they are seeing a lot of monetary success doing that. So in that same way, it is nothing but a process builder. Maybe this one is a little less focused on some of the document drafting automation, though document drafting automation will be a big piece of it. This part, it’s more about the back and forth between the attorney and the digital collaboration space where you’re not having to sit on the phone or go back and forth through messy emails that get lost. And also, when you’re in a long matter like that, it’s easy to you know, life happens and you forget what was going on and as the client, and so you log back in, and you can see oh, this is where we are, this is what they’re working on. Oh, this is what they’re waiting on me from for. So it’s essentially the same plate. But I think with the litigation, or you know, longer lifecycle matters, it’s more about communication than, than docking document drafting automation.
Steve Fretzin [16:51]
Okay. So if we put all this together, and we look at the efficiency, we look at the lower costs, lawyers would have to do, they’d have to sort of play the numbers game a little bit to make this work.
Kory Kelly [17:04]
play the numbers game as in, like,
Steve Fretzin [17:07]
like, let’s say I have a matter, that’s a $10,000 matter that’s staffed with with associates and whatnot, that same matter can be done through legal karma for 2000. Because it’s all been automated, it’s more efficient, I don’t need to put lawyers on it. So I’m now $8,000, less, as far as my billables are what what I’ve been delivering for, you know, 10 years, for example. So what I need to then get five more clients of that sort to make up for that.
Kory Kelly [17:34]
But I think in most of the cases, what legal karma doesn’t automate is strategic document drafting. And I think that’s where lawyers are making most of their money. So for some of these turnkey things, which are already flat fee today, it’s very rare that I talked to affirm that they don’t offer some sort of flat fee, business formation package, things like that. So the truth is, is that’s not changing, so you could continue to charge that way you could try to untie undercut the competition, it introduced a good what it does more than anything is it gives you options.
Steve Fretzin [18:08]
So you could still, you could still charge what you traditionally charge if you want it to you just have a lower overhead.
Kory Kelly [18:14]
You just have a lower overhead and your customers can have an amazing online experience that they’re gonna recommend to other people, because working with lawyers is really challenging. I mean, I think lawyers understand that the process is challenging, but also when you’re near the client and you don’t know the vernacular and you’re stressed and your liberties at stake or it’s expensive. I mean, working with law firms is so expensive. And you’re you’re concerned about that. It feels really good to have insight into what’s going on. Ability to make sense quickly out of what’s coming, what’s expected out of you how much it’s going to cost. And there are certainly decisions to be made on how you want to communicate billing, but legal karma works really well with the billable hour. We don’t and I think largely because we don’t automate strategic document drafting. We’re not a robot lawyer, this is the changing of the delivery. And so while you can still productize services, there’s still a total play that’s that’s here for people who are billing by the hour.
Steve Fretzin [19:12]
Okay, so let’s let’s fast forward, there are attorneys that are listening right now that are that are onboard with you, they get it they see the future of law and how it’s changing. Others are, you know, seeing changes so slow, that they’re just not buying it, that things are not going to really move in the direction of automation and all of that. What are you really seeing though, as it relates to the the actual laws that are changing in different states and how things are, you know, whether it’s how people are marketing advertising, whether it’s the automations whether it states making some some decisions about Neo nonlawyer run firms, and that’s how that’s going to change things. Give that give us your two minute sort of what the future looks like from in your in your estimation?
Kory Kelly [19:57]
Yeah, I think there’s two types of attorneys. I think they’re Are the in this map in this in this example, I think there are those who are seeing it slow. And they’re right, it is slow, it is changing slowly. This is a nuanced and there’s no monolith in law, it’s a segmented space entirely. So it is slow. But there are the other attorneys were holding their fingers up in the air and saying, Oh, the winds are changing, and they can see it. And I think it’s going to be those attorneys that end up continuing to be the millionaires. And I think it’s the individuals who are antiquated, who do not survive. And making the change now, I think is probably your best bet. Because moving at the speed of business, it takes a long time to change these, to change these processes that your firm to reach out, to retrain your staff for you to even make sense out of it to get brand recognition and marketing in place that helps you leverage some of the new gifts that come with modernizing the delivery of your practice. And you don’t want to be a year and let that moving at the speed of business. That is a year that’s a big ship, it turns really slowly. And I think it’s the attorneys, which there are a lot of I would say 10 to 10 to 15% of attorneys are on board with this and are taking actions for this right now. And I think those are the ones that are going to come out on the other side as winners. And by the time the laggards get on, you know, the next 30% will buy in and you know, there’ll be ready to go by 2023 2024. And then everybody else it’s going to be, you know, more or less a shit show to get their stuff together. And you’re getting beaten out. And I think that also comes with some of these changes that you were talking about, which is non ownership of law firms. For the first time ever, for any listeners who don’t know what that is, non attorneys, entrepreneurs, tech entrepreneurs, I think mostly are going to be able to open up law firms, just like this company, hello, divorce. It’s basically Legal Zoom, with all the legitimacy of a law firm. That should really make attorneys nervous. That is actual that and this is what I mean by the changing the delivery of legal services. That’s what that looks like, really, tangibly. And I think law firms are unprepared?
Steve Fretzin [22:24]
Well, it’s the isn’t it? It’s like the equivalency of a, you know, a small sporting goods store. And not worrying about Google not worrying about Amazon, right? Yes. Like, yeah, you’re, you’re dead, you’re not going to survive this most haven’t. And law firms need to understand that, as you know, I mean, I could own a law firm in Utah, right. And I could hire lawyers, and I could help them market and do business development, and how our law firms that are antiquated, that aren’t doing business development and marketing and technology properly, gonna compete with me, not that I’m going to do that. I’m not saying I’m going to do that. But I’m saying like, they’re going to be competing against the technologists, they’re going to be competing against the Silicon Valley’s the business, the business people that know how to run a business and be, you know, brutal in the marketplace. And that’s law firms are going to be competing with,
they should be scared. Now. Now,
Steve Fretzin [23:24]
that’s a great way to end the segment, just driving the fear of God. Right at the end of our of our time here, oh, my god, well, listen, I think it’s a wake up call. And even if the ship is, is moving and turning slowly, you got to keep your eye on the horizon and understand that you eat while change might be slow. If you’re a lawyer that’s in this for another 1020 30 years, and you’re not thinking about the future, whether it’s business development, marketing, technology, automation, you’re gonna get left behind, and it might be too late. If you’re not, if you’re not looking forward, you’re you’re you’re dead in the water in some ways. So let’s move on to what I want to hear about and what maybe some people other people want to hear about. I’ve never been to Austin, and it’s killing me. And I think that’s got to be top five places that I need to go and visit in. So I’m going to come say hi to you, Cory, and I’m going to take you out for a meal, okay, on my visit, and you’re gonna say, Steve, you’re coming to visit me, you know, love your podcast, but I have to take you to this one place. Where am I? Where are you taking me?
Kory Kelly [24:28]
And, you know, for all your listeners, I’m gonna separate this into two answers for their benefit. So I’m vegan, and I think most people do not eat vegan. For my fellow vegan listeners or vegetarian listeners. There is this wonderful place called Buzz mill and it is and I would actually recommend this to everybody it
Steve Fretzin [24:45]
isn’t I would eat I would eat vegan. If it’s really really good. I mean, delicious is delicious. I don’t care if there’s meat or vegetables or my wife makes food all the time. That’s not it doesn’t have meat in it and it’s delicious. And that’s all I care about.
Kory Kelly [24:57]
This is delicious. Wonderful place called Buzz mill. And it’s all outdoors. There’s about five or six food trucks that are pulled up around it. And there’s an actual coffee house that’s kind of planted on the grounds. And there’s this big outdoor space and it’s got a stage and there’s always really weird stuff going on. Like sometimes it’s music. Sometimes it’s comedy sometimes, like the wildlife department is giving an exhibit on snakes and what to do if you get bitten by snakes, or like what to do if you encounter a wild boar, you know, stuff.
Steve Fretzin [25:30]
Things that happen all the time.
Kory Kelly [25:34]
Yeah. So I would highly recommend that spot is totally fine. If you’re looking for more of a sit down dinner experience, there’s this delicious place called Red ash. And I’ve never been to a place that’s so reasonably priced for just how five star the
Steve Fretzin [25:52]
food is. Wow. And that’s mean and non meat right?
Kory Kelly [25:55]
That’s needed on me. I think they do meat really well. Okay. Okay.
Steve Fretzin [26:00]
And you know, the Chicago, you know, guy in me is all about that, too. But again, everybody’s got their own their own thing. So, all right, so we have this great meal. I’m so happy that that you know, I had you sit down with me at Red ash. And now we need to do stuff like what am I doing? I’m coming to visit I need to do one thing. What’s the like top thing I need to do when I come visit Austin?
Kory Kelly [26:21]
Hmm. Well, you either. I would say you want to have a very Austin afternoon. And I think that starts with going to the green belts. The one on the west side. Everyone will know what that means.
Steve Fretzin [26:36]
That means what’s the Green Belt?
Kory Kelly [26:37]
When you get to Austin?
Steve Fretzin [26:38]
Oh, okay. I won’t know. Till I get there.
Kory Kelly [26:41]
Everyone will know will be like, Oh, you’re talking about this one. Okay. And you go there and hike around and have fun. Bring your dog if you have them, and then go downtown. And it’s very easy to find live music and and watch a show. And then before the sunsets go to the Congress Bridge and watch the bats fly out from a dune. That’s cool. Austin is known for having the largest colony of bats outside of a cave in North America and it’s under the bridge that isn’t directly downtown.
Steve Fretzin [27:14]
Okay, well, that’s really interesting. And then what are the locals like yourself into non touristy stuff? What are you guys doing lately? To keep busy and active and enjoying Austin?
Kory Kelly [27:28]
I think it’s I think Austin has one universal language. And that’s local live music. Okay. I think when anybody first lands in Austin, they’re kind of maybe feeling hard to connect, or they don’t know where to go. Or it’s lonely. Big cities can feel lonely. I think what everyone agrees is, once you find that the universal language of Austin is live music, and you get into the artists and you get into going to the shows. It’s really quick and and easy to find community.
Steve Fretzin [27:58]
Yeah. Well, that’s really wonderful, Cory, terrific talking with you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your futuristic ideas of where things are going and how you’re helping lawyers to become that lawyer, someone that’s, you know, organized and thinking about the future. If people want to get in touch with you and hear more about legal karma, how do they get? How do they reach out?
Kory Kelly [28:19]
Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Cory Kelly can also go to legal karma, you just Google it with the first one that pops up where you can go to legal karma.org. I would also for any listeners who are interested in this, that their law firm, that’s great, you can find us at legal karma.org. I also like to make people aware that we actually donate our software at no cost to purely pro bono entities. And I find that the ones that that makes the most impact are not the LSC funded entities. While those are great, oftentimes, it’s kind of just word of mouth, a group of attorneys that come together to try to make a difference. So if you have an organization like that, we want to give this to you for free. Because we we believe in increasing access to legal services,
Steve Fretzin [29:05]
that’s very generous and thoughtful. I really appreciate you spending some time with me and sharing your ideas with my audience in Listen, everybody, it’s all about, you know, looking at the future, I think, you know, if you’re just sitting in the past, and that’s what you know, I think there’s a lot of historical, you know, attorneys that are historians that just kind of look at the past and what happened last year and the year before that. And we need to start looking at the future and identifying marketing, business development, technology automation, so that you can stay not only up to date, but also looking ahead because if things change, you need to change with them. So, Cory thanks again and appreciate you being on the show. Thank you, Steve. Great to hang out with you. Hi, everybody, take care of be well be safe. We’ll talk again soon.
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