Larry Stybel: Defining Yourself and Finding Success Now

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Larry Stybel discuss:

  • Determining if your career is a success.
  • Enjoying what you do while you’re doing it.
  • Redefining your title of yourself from within.
  • Understanding what comes during Chapter Three.

Key Takeaways:

  • Everyone has a different definition of success and has a different level of what they are comfortable with in their own life.
  • You need to do what you want to do, not what other people are expecting you to do.
  • There are more titles that define you than just your career.
  • The best time to be thinking about what you want to do in 15 years is to think about it now.

“The best time for a lawyer to be thinking about their chapter three is when the lawyer is in his or her 50s, and is established in a career and incredibly busy  because that gives you the time to position yourself.” —  Larry Stybel

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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lawyer, people, law firm, business, career, life, partner, venetian blinds, firm, steve, humor, chapter, define, money, client, helped, larry, years, understand, suicide


Larry Stybel, Narrator, Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Larry Stybel  [00:00]

is the best time for a lawyer to be thinking about, Okay, what’s going to be my chapter three is when the lawyer is in his or her 50s is established in a career incredibly busy. That’s the best time to be thinking about what am I going to do 15 years from now, because that gives you the time to position yourself.


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a wonderful day. Who were in Chicago, just getting into the summer. Wow, maybe maybe a little bit earlier than I’m saying, because I think there’s a there’s a gap between when I’m talking to you and when you’re hearing this, but I will tell you, the summers in Chicago are beautiful. And I’m hoping to come to Boston actually, maybe this summer and check out Boston and some of those East Coast towns and I’m gonna introduce Larry from Boston in a minute. But I wanted to welcome you to the show. I hope that you’re a listener that’s that’s been with us for a while, if not enjoy, we’re going to give you some tips and takeaways and ideas to help you be that lawyer someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. And again, the goal is to continue to give you tips and ideas and tricks and ways of thinking about things that may, you know, change the game for you or might just be super helpful in your career as a lawyer. I want to thank our sponsors legalese, marketing, and money, penny more about them in a few minutes. But wow, are they great partners, for me? totally appreciate them. Larry, first of all, welcome to the show. And I’m going to talk about your quote, which I think is really unique. How’s it gone?



Thank you, Steve. appreciate being here.


Steve Fretzin  [01:53]

Yeah, we had a really good chat, I don’t know week or two ago, and I was really excited to have you on because the conversation we’re going to have is unique and different than other conversations I’ve had on this show. And anytime I can bring someone on, that’s going to give a different perspective that gets me gets me excited and ready to go. The quote that you submitted is an interesting one by Abraham Lincoln. Maybe I’ll let you tell it, because there’s a setup to it.



Well, Abraham Lincoln was accused of being two faced. And his response was, if I was to face do you think this would be the face I would choose to show?


Steve Fretzin  [02:30]

Right, which is just awesome. This is an awesome comeback. Right?



And I think there’s this story about Lincoln’s sense of humor, he always had a sense of humor. And I look at humor on a zero to 10. Scale. 10 is where you’re expressing humor and you’re laughing with the speaker. One is you’re you’re being sardonic, sarcastic, cynical. And you’re, you’re laughing at someone else. Yeah. And zero is you have no sense of humor at all. Right? Well, Lincoln had a sense of humor. But when he was young, he it was a very cold, what I would call a cold sense of humor, he would make fun at other people’s expenses. Yeah, particularly when he’s running for office. And one day, one of his opponents challenged him to a duel. And the duel never occurred. But that’s really frightened Lincoln, about the power of humor. And so he moved up the scale to a warmer. And so that joke is really you’re laughing with link with Lincoln about his face. And you’re laughing with him about how he’s handling an attack. Yeah, and that’s a great example of a kind of an eight or nine such a humor.


Steve Fretzin  [03:53]

Yeah, but a self deprecating sense of humor, you know, is humbling, and it’s it’s in many cases more appropriate for getting buy in from other people. You know, and being humble and not an egomaniac and not attacking with the humor.



One of the things that I see with law firms is one is the lack of a sense of humor, which I think doesn’t help the law firm culture. Right, and doesn’t help in communication with younger lawyers. But particularly with litigators, I often see a kind of what I would call a cold sense of humor. It’s derogatory, it’s cynical. It’s usually at the expense of someone. And that also is not good for corporate culture.


Steve Fretzin  [04:41]

Yeah. Again, if the point of being a lawyer or being in any profession is making friends building trust, and it’s all about relationships, ultimately, right that’s how you get referred as a lawyer. That’s how you get referred in any any senses. You know, people refer relationships and so you know, using humor or Being humble and just being liked being likeable is such a big part of of what we need to do to be successful in business, I think it’s very hard to be successful if you’re just always right, instead of being liked or being a part of, you know, of a trusted advisory group or a trusted advisor. So, you already stable thanks, man, CEO, co founder of stable key body associates. Tell us a little bit about yourself because you have a unique background and then in what you’re doing today, and I think it’d be really interesting as a lead into the questions I have for you. So give us the Reader’s Digest version.



I am a licensed doctoral level psychologist with a degree from Harvard University started as a clinician then started a business in the area of executive outplacement. And one day, the Boston Globe had an article about the work we do with a headline how to fire a friend. And I got a call from a partner in Los Angeles. He had gone to Stanford Law is law school, a very big white, well known law firm. And he was a what he called his service partner. In other words, he didn’t have his own business, but he served as the clients of other partners. The law firm then decided there’s no such thing as a service partner, and they got rid of him. And he was suicidal. Because if I’m not a lawyer, if I’m not a partner, what am I? And so I worked with him to help him get over a suicide. I helped him define his practice and employment and labor law, helped him start a business. And I remember one day, he talked with me about driving cars, just committing suicide, if he couldn’t get a job in a firm, then he calls me and he says, Hey, Larry, there’s a firm that’s offered me a lateral partner transfer. What do you think? And I said, well, it doesn’t matter what I think what’s important is what do you think? And he says, Why would I want to give up my independence, just to join a law firm? Nice. And the important thing about this is that he said, If you ever need a reference, I’ll be glad to provide one for you. Which I didn’t understand the importance of this because he, he was based in Los Angeles, and could speak freely about his experiences with me. I still have lawyers in Boston today. If I meet them in a restaurant, they won’t acknowledge that I exist, because they want to keep things very confidential. And I respect that. Yeah. So I was able to get references because my first client was in Los Angeles, not Boston. Now we work with lawyers all over the country on on career issues, but it deals with existential kind of issues like who am I?


Steve Fretzin  [07:54]

Yeah, well, let’s, let’s lead. That’s, hey, that segue into the question I have for you, which is how does an attorney determine if his or her career was is or was a success? If how are they looking at that definition? In your in your, in your experience?



I’m not going to give you a definition. I’m going to give you a definition that a guy selling fruit in Toronto named Tony told me, I was with Tony, and we were talking about careers. And he told me the story that he’s selling fruit to a husband and wife, and he recognizes the guy. And he says, aren’t you so and so he says, Yeah, is that we went to high school together. Yeah. And this guy became very wealthy, and is a bill’s office buildings around the city of Toronto. And they just were had a pleasant conversation that then the couple turns around and walks away. And Tony hears the wife, turn to the husband and say, I guess that’s one of the graduates of your element of high school who weren’t successful. Wow. And I said, How did you? You know, how do you feel about that? This isn’t, I totally understand why she thinks I’m not successful. But let me tell you my definition of success, as my definition of success is, do I have to be working in this job? Or do I want to be working at this job? And I have enough money, so I don’t need this job. I’m here because I’m retired. I don’t want to stay hanging around watching television. I like to be outdoors. I like to be meeting people. And so this is a great opportunity for me, and I’m not here for the money. I’m doing it because I enjoy the work. Yeah. And so


Steve Fretzin  [09:52]

So the definition of success varies from person to person. And I think the story is such a great one because it isn’t always He’s about like, look, would I would I be happy with a billion dollars? I don’t know, I don’t know if I’d be happy if I’d be miserable. You know, I have just everyone has a different definition of not only success, but what they consider, you know, a comfort level with their life and where they are at that point. So I interject, I’ll



give you another joke. This time from my Warren Buffett. Okay. He said during work that you do not like today, so that sometime in the future you can do work you do like, is like saving up sex for your old age.


Steve Fretzin  [10:34]

I’ve heard that statement. I’ve heard that quote, but not that way. There was a different way it was stated. But it’s like, yeah, you’re miserable your whole career in law. So that what you can retire and enjoy your retirement. But meanwhile, you’re miserable for the majority of your life so that you get to this point, where you’re retiring, and then what and then you sit around and play Solitaire and, and stare at the wall.



And it is particularly true for lawyers, because people go into law school. And often they really don’t have a really good sense of what lawyers actually do. They just are in love with the idea of being a professional, it will please their parents, and so why not? And then when they get out of law school, they still don’t really understand what what what lawyers, do. They they they’ve been educated in law, but they don’t understand the practice of law. It’s only after they’ve been in law for maybe three years, do they really understand, oh, this is what it means to be a lawyer? Is that really what I want?


Steve Fretzin  [11:36]

Yeah. And the good news is a lot of the skills of being a lawyer and going through law school and working in law for a number of years. I mean, there are a lot of different angles and options to get out of it and work in different areas. So so there’s that to fall back on. Because I think the education of problem solving, word smithing, you know, just arguing whatever it might be, you know, can play on a board, it can play on a, in a business, in house or whatever you want to do. It helps but but at the end of the day, I think the main takeaway from this conversation so far, is how important it is to really enjoy what you do while you’re doing it. Because and I’m wanting to talk that life is fragile. And if we if we don’t enjoy what we do, whether it’s the work the people a combination, then what are we really doing? I mean, yeah, we’re making a buck, and we’re paying our bills, but, you know, should we be reaching for more?



Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.


Steve Fretzin  [12:34]

So let me let me take it a step further. In, you know, someone like your friend who was or your client who was suicidal? Does a profession, therefore define a person is that is that if I’m, if I’m John, the lawyer, and that’s how I’m known for 30 years, is that who I am, is that what defines me as a human being as a person?



You know, if I was at a party in Paris, and I didn’t know anybody in the party, and I went to a stranger, and I said, Hi, my name is Larry, what in your name is Steve, tell me about yourself? I have no idea what would come out of your mouth. Steve, you might talk about your job, you might talk about your religion, your politics, your children, I have no idea. Because that’s Paris. If I go to any city in the United States, and I go to any stranger, and I say, Hey, my name is Larry, tell me about yourself. I can guarantee the first word that will come out of that person’s mouth is their job title. Yeah. Because Exactly. That’s crazy. Right? That is, well, that is the US culture. And we’re like, you know, it’s like, when you’re a fish that swims there, there’s a cliche that fish that swims in water does know what’s in water. Yeah. That’s the environment it’s in. It’s, and we don’t understand that the culture of the United States is you are what you do. You are an employment and labor lawyer. You are a partner at a law firm. Any questions? And everything else is kind of a secondary issue. Yeah. And then what happens if, if, if that goes away? What happens? If you you say, what do I really want to do? I’ll tell you a story. It’s not it’s not a lawyer, but it is it is illustrative of the power of this


Steve Fretzin  [14:32]

real quick, Larry, before you get into your salary. Isn’t that why lawyers say I’m a recovering lawyer. Even that title right goes with like, I’m not a lawyer anymore, but I’m a recovering lawyer or something like that, like they still fit it in is a goof. But anyway, I apologize. Yeah, no.



I had a client who was CEO grew a company sold a company, the American dream. And he comes to me and he says, you know, everybody expects that I’m going to be a serial entrepreneur because I was successful. Once I should do it again, I don’t want to do things because other people expected of me I want to figure out what is it that I want to do? Okay, so we took him on a journey back to when he was 16 years old. He wanted to be a novelist. His father was a policeman in New York City who said to him, kid, writers don’t make money. kid says, my dad’s right, they don’t make money. So he got into MIT, became an engineer, started a technology company grew the company. And he forgot his existential crisis when he was 16. He wanted to be a writer and his father talked him out of it, and he gave up on it. He gave up on his dream. Did he give up too soon. And so we helped him revisit that existential crisis, and then helped him refashion himself. If you’ve ever had children, you are familiar with a magazine called Highlights for Children, for sure. And if you’ve ever gone to a pediatric dentist deal or a doctor’s office, they’ll they’ll be all over the place. Well, he writes a regular column for Highlights for Children on science and technology. And because of his audience, he can talk to any scientist, any engineer in the world, they love to talk about him, because he’ll translate what they’re doing into things that a kid can understand. Yeah, so he is now a writer, he writes for a national audience, he has readers know, is he making the money that he used to make? No, but is he happy? Yes. And he defines himself as a writer.


Steve Fretzin  [16:40]

That’s really interesting. I love that. And so we need to think about our lives more, maybe either more holistically, or not just settle for the definition that, you know that of our title at a firm, right? How do we do that? How do we how do we work through I mean, obviously, spending time with you might help but in a shorter, shortened version, I mean, what are some some questions that someone could ask themselves to maybe start to redefine their title of themselves in their psyche?



I think in part, this is a psychological issue. But also in part, it is a social issue, right? I have venetian blinds in my house and you you the like, I can move the blinds. And I say I tell my clients, sometimes the Venetian blinds are open for new opportunities. And sometimes the Venetian blinds are closed. And if you are starting a career as a lawyer, and you don’t have children, or your children have just been born, you possibly can afford to take a risk, take a chance. And if it fails, you can recover. Let me give you an example. I have a client. He became a lawyer. Why? Because his father was a lawyer. He became a litigator. Why? Because they said, your congratulations. We’re, we’re we’re bringing you in as an associate in litigation department. He had no, no idea what a litigator does, here you go. And then three years into litigation, he realized is I hate this is constant conflict. I don’t like this. Yeah. I’d rather do something in corporate law. But the problem is, you’ve got three years in litigation. You’re seen as successful there. The litigation department doesn’t want to lose you. And the corporate law. People don’t trust you. So he was stuck in something that he didn’t like. But he was married without any children. He took a chance he became an entrepreneur, started a business that failed. And then he applied for a general counsel jobs. And he got the General Counsel job, because he was an entrepreneur, not because he was a lawyer. Yeah. And now he’s the General Counsel of a software as a service. He’s doing well. And he could afford that. Now. The Venetian blinds are open again. When you are, let’s say 55 or 65. Or whenever you’re, whenever the last child graduates from college. The Venetian blinds that out you can, you can now try something different. And if you fail, it’s not going to be disastrous. Yeah. But there’s this gap of time between you know, when your kids are like 12 1314. And you’re all of a sudden, you’re, you got to be thinking about retirement planning. You got to be thinking about saving money for the kids college. It’s the worst time to be thinking outside the box. So you got to stay focused. Yeah,


Jordan Ostroff  [19:49]

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Steve Fretzin  [20:12]

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Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [20:16]

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Steve Fretzin  [20:29]

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Stephanie Vaughn Jones  [20:36]

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Steve Fretzin  [20:49]

Very cool. Thanks. So like, when I think about defining, I’m just gonna put it on me for a minute like defining myself. Alright, so I’ve written four books. I’m a writer, I write columns, I’m always writing. I’m a podcast host, which is only a few years old. I’m a Business Development coach for lawyers. I’m a father, I’m a husband, I’m Jewish. I’m, you know, a neighborhood guy. I’m, you know, there’s all these all these things that I am. And I don’t know that any of them individually define me. I’m a giver. I like for example, I just helped a young lady get out of working in a courtroom and get into private practice. And I made all the introductions to get that to happen. Not getting paid for that I don’t I didn’t even know her. I was introduced to her. And it was my now job to say, look, I have a network. Let me see how I can put some magic together to connect people. So I’m a connector. So I’m all these things. But I’m not really sure how I’m how I would I mean, if somebody asked me, like, you know, tell me about yourself, I’d probably I would start with my career. Right. I think that is a big part of what defines me. But it’s frustrating to me that I have all these different jobs and different like elements of my life. And they all maybe there’s there’s one common ground between them all, but I don’t know that that’s how I’m how I’m seeing myself or how I’m defining myself or titling myself.



One of the questions you’re you were going to ask me was, what’s my favorite book? So I’m going to tell you the answer now, and that is Victor Frankel’s Man’s Search for Meaning. And if you haven’t read the book, I’ll give you the kind of a summary. Viktor Frankl was a psychiatrist. This is a true story. So he was a psychiatrist in Vienna. Hitler was elected chancellor of Germany, and he just said, you know, Hitler can’t be serious. He just can’t be serious. But of course, Hitler was serious. And he invades Vienna. And Viktor Frankl and his wife and his two daughters are arrested and put in concentration camps. Viktor Frankl sees his wife and his two children killed. He is now suicidal. Why am I why should I be alive, they’re dead. And you’re, he’s in the worst possible place that you a person can be there in a camp where the purpose of the camp is that you die, they want you dead. And there are prisoners there who commit suicide. And committing suicide in a concentration camp is simply a matter of walking up to the electrical fence and touching in your dead. Or suicide is simply just a matter of running, trying to run away and the guards will shoot you. Yeah. He then notices that there are some prisoners that are committed to survival. And they will not commit suicide, and they will stick this out and they will survive. And Franco becomes obsessed with them. And he says, okay, my mission in life is to study these people who are committed to being alive. Why are they committed to being alive? And his mission was to write a book called Man’s Search for Meaning. And that’s the book now. And the thrust of the book is why are you here? Because you know, you will die. You know, in 10 years, people mostly will forget you. So, while you were here, what is your mission? As a femoral as it may be? What is your mission in life? And that’s the book I have my clients read. And then we will take off from there because it gets the conversation focused on what What is my mission in life? Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [25:03]

and I think that that can be a great director of your identity of how you see yourself or how you pave a path forward when you’re being pulled in different directions about what your identity is, or who you are, and what you’re meant to do here. And, you know, as a, as a survivor of a terrible accident and someone who does appreciate life every day. I mean, you’re not anywhere near that, you know, the experience of a concentration camp survivor, but of someone that shouldn’t really be here. Okay, that I do understand that I need, you know, I think there’s a legacy for my family with my son. And I think there’s a legacy I want to leave in the legal community when I’m gone, where maybe it’s my books, my podcasts that people have helped, that, that I’m remembered or that I’ve made a difference. More importantly, I mean, I will care if I’m remembered because I’ll be gone. But if I made a difference in helping the community, the way that you know, authors make a difference the way that leaders make a difference the way that you know people remember you know, very famous actors or whatever made a difference in people’s lives in the entertainment. So I think that’s really great. Little dark but the point is made and it’s an important point to be made whether we went you know, we took it down a path but but the game changing book, everybody Man’s Search for Meaning. Tell us about chapter three, and how attorneys need to think about their last chapter. And yeah, what is that to chapter three? Last chapter, okay, that’s, that’s where I want to wrap things up



chapter chapter one is learn the game. Okay, chapter two is when the game okay, and then chapter three is define the game you want to play for the next five or 10 years. Okay. I got involved with this through an organization called the National Basketball, retired players association. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the retired players association for the NBA, the Women’s Basketball Association, the Harlem Globetrotters. So a professional basketball career is over, I don’t know, 3538 years old. And okay, what am I going to do next? So, the first thing a basketball player says is I’m going to pivot. And a pivot is a little to the right, a little to the left, but not a major issue. So, okay, I’m going to be a commentator for ESPN. If that doesn’t work, I will, I will teach college. I’ll be a physical education teacher in college. Then they find that ESPN has all the comment basketball commentators they need. Thank you very much. And they got


Steve Fretzin  [27:43]

they got all their money wrapped up in Brady.



And then. And the colleges say, oh, we’d love to have you if you have a PhD, but you don’t have a PhD so we can use you that precipitates the existential crisis of who am I? What am I going to do? And we will take them through that. Lawyers go through the same thing. If you’re a lawyer with a your own practice, or with a small firm, you can practice as long as you want. But if you’re a lawyer, and you’re a partner at a large firm, increasingly, at some age, let’s say 65, they say, Okay, we want you to turn to all your business to the junior partners. And we want you to quietly leave the firm and never come back. Nice, and that precipitates an excess. Okay, what am I going to do? So the first step is the lawyer says, I’m going to pivot, okay. I’ve been working with senior corporate people all my life, I know I’m going to be on a board of directors. So they say I’ll be on a board of directors. Well, it turns out that 65 years old, they’re too old for most boards. And most boards are not interested in having lawyers. That then precipitates the existential crisis. What am I going to do? Yeah, it’s same as professional athletes.


Steve Fretzin  [29:03]

So when When Should an attorney start thinking about that chapter three, they’ve been practicing for 30 years, whether it’s become old and not fun anymore, or whether it’s it’s it’s they’re, they’re being pushed out? Or whatever the case might be? How should they figure out what’s next? What are some things that they can do to start getting their minds in a better place about that if we realize boards and, and other types of efforts might be might be challenging?



There is a saying in banking, the best time to ask the bank for a loan is when you don’t need one. And the worst time is when you do Yeah. The best time for Laurie to be thinking about okay, what’s going to be my chapter three is when the lawyer is in his or her 50s is establishing a career incredibly busy. That’s the best time to be thinking about what am I going to do 15 years from now because that gives you the time to position yourself. So For example, you want to be on a board of directors of a for profit company. Great. The worst time to ask for help to do two dads when you’re 65. Best time is when you’re in your 50s. Yeah. Yeah. program now.


Steve Fretzin  [30:17]

Yeah, I think so whether that’s what you know, that’s, I’m doing that now I’m in my early 50s. And I’m doing that now with without regarding my, my profession or retire, I’m never going to retire, I know that I may pivot a little, I just enjoy what I do too much. Yeah. And I love what you know what I do every day. And maybe I’ll slow down and travel more. But I think my wife and I are right, in a position where we’re starting to think about like, where do we want to live? Do we want to stay in Chicago? Do we want to maybe try living in a bunch of different places for short periods of time to kind of feel so it’s not so much about like, I’m not having a career. Third Chapter, I’m really having a decision about like, where I want to replace myself with, you know, with, with how I want to be in my last 20 years, or 30 years, or whatever that might be. So maybe that’s a similar approach, but I’m doing it now. I’m looking at it now.



And you can do it because you got your own business. Right, right. And I have the same opportunity. But if you are a lawyer working for a mid to large sized law firm, you don’t have that opportunity. It’s either you’re of 100, you’re either 100% in the game, or you’re out of the gate. And is that but is that


Steve Fretzin  [31:27]

like I have a friend who was charging the most ridiculous amount of money an hour and a big firm for big corporate clients. He just retired and he was telling me, like how much he’s going to make in retirement and how he’s getting paid out. And he’s going to be you know, playing tennis and golf and just, you know, really enjoying retirement. That’s, that’s his chapter three, I think at this point until he realizes that’s totally boring. But because he was a business developer, he had a massive book of business. I think his even though he wasn’t an entrepreneur, in the sense of having his own business, he did it within the firm construct. And because of that, he’s able to dictate his chapter three in an entirely different level than someone at a service partner



level. Mm hmm. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [32:11]

So I think I think I guess I’m putting it out there not as not as a shameless plug to, you know, for any other purpose than the importance of being an entrepreneur, whether that entrepreneur is what you do, Larry, what I do, having your own firm, but it can be done within the construct of or in within that within the facility of a firm, you just put you need to be a business developer, because that gives you the autonomy to to make better decisions, as retirement age comes up.



A message that I want us to leave your listeners with, is that we are in an era of short job tenure and long middle age. My long middle age is when you You and I were kids, when somebody turns 65. They’re old. Yeah. And they’re supposed to go to the Golden Age center and play mahjong and cards. And maybe we hope they don’t drill too much. Today, when somebody is 65 years old. They can’t wait for this winter so they can go skiing, we’ve added 12 years to the average lifespan. Do you understand that? You could collect full Social Security at age 65. But the average age of death, at the time Social Security was established was 62. We’ve added 12 years to the average lifespan, but it’s not 12 years of old age, it’s 12 years of more middle age. So when somebody is 65, they’re not going to be ready to go to the Golden Age community. What do you what are you going to do between now and 75? That’s number one. And number two, short job tenure. It used to be Hey, when you become a partner at stable Peabody, you are a partner for life. You are you are set. I think most lawyers would think of that as a bad joke. There are too many mergers, acquisitions, law firms going out of business. So being a partner and does not necessarily mean you’re set for life. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [34:09]

yeah. Well, I think I think that the end message then is, you know, you got to own your own stuff. I mean, you got to, you know, it’s always you win. I mean, no one’s gonna look out for you quite like you will for yourself. And so I think you really have to take stock of what role you’re in what what what, you know, identity you have, what you want your chapter three to look like and start planning now and getting really, you know,



yeah, and I think I think where you’re where your services fit into your listeners, is, if you’re a lawyer, you’re either a walking profit center for the firm, or you’re a walking cost center, it’s one or the other. And if you’re a walking cost center, you’re not gonna be there for very long.


Steve Fretzin  [34:49]

And I think right now, it’s hard for lawyers to see that because they’re so busy and so profitable, and they’re getting paid more than they’ve ever gotten paid if they make that ask or if they change firms. And so it’s hard sometimes just see the forest through the trees when things are so good and busy. But the reality is, you know, we have to remember what happened in 2008. And with the recession, and how it impacted people in the space in all different industries, because we don’t want to relive, you know, the same mistakes over and over again. But, but I hear what you’re saying, Larry, thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you to learn more about your business to learn more to maybe talk with you about their own career, their last their chapter three, how do they get in touch,



I think the best thing is why go visit our website. And that’s stable s t YBEL. Stable, P A, P O D Y stable And you’ll find in resources, a number of articles were written about career management, and you can contact me through there.


Steve Fretzin  [35:47]

Yeah, super interesting. And I’m just so happy we met and had a great conversation and this podcast I think, you know, really his eye opening for it should be eye opening is for me and for others that are listening that that we need to start considering, you know, a number of things around our life and our identity and how we’re going to live that chapter three in a positive way. So just thanks so much for sharing your wisdom being on the show and everything else. Yeah, appreciate it. Yeah. Hey, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Larry and I today. Again, you know, I hate to brag but I’m really excited about you know, the the show in the in the all the takeaways that we’re providing, and I just I’m just so happy to be a part of your life as a as a host and as someone that can that can help you be that lawyer someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled Rainmaker, Take care everybody, be safe be well.


Narrator  [36:38]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes