Lori Ann Fox: Take Your Shot, Live Your Life

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Lori Ann Fox discuss:

  • Learning, growing, and moving forward without fear of failure.
  • The evolution of the legal practice in the last 15 years.
  • How Lawmato works and can be a game changer for you.
  • Taking a chance and not waiting until retirement.

Key Takeaways:

  • You want to give a client the right service that they really need, not just what may be kind of what they need.
  • Alternative billing models have allowed solo and small firms to work as GC or outside GC for companies in ways they weren’t able to before.
  • Most consumers want to meet with lawyers virtually. This also makes the lawyer’s life easier too. Lawmato can help with that.
  • There are resources out there. Take the shot on yourself, and make it happen.

“Just take the shot on yourself. You can learn, grow, and you can do and be whoever you want.” —  Lori Ann Fox

Connect with Lori Ann Fox:  

Website: https://www.lawmato.com/

Email: admin@lawmato.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/loriannfox

Thank you to our Sponsors!

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Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

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Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



Lori Ann Fox  [00:00]

Just take the shot on yourself like you can learn and grow and you can do and be whoever you want.


Narrator  [00:09]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:32]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. Your host, if you haven’t heard of Fretzin ain’t too bad you should. We’re a good company. We help attorneys individual attorneys accomplish a couple of things with their businesses, their law practices. Number one is we do coaching and training. It’s a very involved intensive program to basically get lawyers to the next level. Many of our clients are doubling tripling their books of business and going through about an eight month program to do that, and get to the point where you’re internalizing business development. So it just becomes a part of you part of how you do do it for the rest of your career. So that’s one program. The other thing I do is peer advisory groups. We work with attorneys at all different levels, to help them work as a group, as a community and in a confidential environment, to overcome challenges to talk about best practices, and just be in our community of business, developing superstars that all have the same motivation to grow and be accountable to a team of their peers. And so also feel free to check out my new book on Amazon legal business development isn’t rocket science. So guess what, it isn’t rocket science, you don’t have to think that it is not saying it’s easy. I’m not saying you just snap your fingers. There’s a lot of things to learn. But we’re not putting rockets and space. So you have that going for you. And that is the stick and the spiel for this morning so far today on and before I get to my wonderful, fun, energetic guests, Laurie, just want to take a second to thank our sponsors legalese marketing and money, Penny, both great partners for Fretzin Inc, helping me develop my marketing and also how I communicate with inbound prospective clients on my website. So thank you to those guys. Laurie sent me a quote. And it’s so funny because this is one of the few quotes that I I’ve been using. And I haven’t said it in a long time. But I’ve known it for 20 years since maybe even longer than that. When I used to look at like Brian Tracy and some Tony Robbins, some of the guys that were like the sales trainers from the 80s. And the 90s. They put a quote out there that was an acronym fear, f e AR. And it was false evidence appearing real or false expectations appearing real. And I was so excited when I saw that, Laurie because that’s like a get a quote from my pastor, you know, from from back when I was in my old school sales days. Welcome to the show, and why don’t you submit that quote, in particular, I think it’s a really fun quote.


Lori Ann Fox  [02:51]

Well, so it is an old quote, I always heard it as false expectations appearing real. And it was actually thanks to my dad, who was big into sales training. And, you know, he put me through different courses, like the Tony Robbins courses, and limited power and all of that. And it always stuck with me, because I think it changed over the years and people started using the word evidence. But really, I liked the expectations because it’s about how we self sabotage, and how we set ourselves up to be afraid of something that’s really typically in our own mind. Don’t me wrong, if there’s a bear running at you run, like do something,


Steve Fretzin  [03:30]

but not so false in that case.


Lori Ann Fox  [03:33]

What Right exactly? Like it’s real. Like that’s, that’s a reasonable purpose to run for your life. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [03:42]

No, we’re not run. Carry bear spray? Yeah, well,


Lori Ann Fox  [03:47]

yeah, see, I just don’t camp. See, that’s the simple solution is camp. And it’s easy. But I always liked that, because it reminds me of just go for it, like go for what you really want, which has helped me tremendously. So it’s a huge thank you to my dad and kind of in honor of him, that I always keep that in mind, because it’s how I’ve been able to accomplish so many things, doesn’t mean I’ve always succeeded. I’ve failed plenty along the way. So just to remind you to get out of your own way.


Steve Fretzin  [04:18]

And a real real real world example for lawyers are lawyers that are afraid to ask their clients for introductions to other GCS or CEOs, lawyers who are afraid to pick up the phone and do some marketing calls or set up meetings and or get in front of a group and speak. And the reason that this quote works so well is because once you’ve done it, and it’s over with and you realize that nothing bad really happened, right? It was all in your head, it was all that false expectation that you thought the world was going to come to an end and then it doesn’t, you should then have evidence if we want to go to the next point. That is that these things aren’t going to hurt you. They’re not a bear. They’re not you know, falling out of the sky. they’re not things that are real. They’re just things that you had built up in your head. That really, to you, they’re real, but they’re really not in the sense that nothing bad really will happen to you, you know, if a client says I’m not going to refer you maybe become a better lawyer. I mean, that’s the only reason that would not happen. Or if you didn’t have a good approach, like a soft approach. So I think that quote, just resonates really well with with the legal community, Chuck, because most of the things that they’re afraid of doing around business development, marketing, etc, aren’t real. They’re just, they’re just hang ups that are built up in our heads or their heads. Well, and I


Lori Ann Fox  [05:35]

think everyone, especially lawyers, and it’s kind of sad, but you wouldn’t think it would be the case. But I think we, we have a tendency to fear rejection, and that word no. And really, the word no, just tells you that it didn’t work on that one. Like, yeah, now what do I go do? Or how do I change my approach? Like, what’s my next step? Because I know I can get to a yes. It just may not be with that particular situation.


Steve Fretzin  [06:00]

Where was this quote, in high school, when I was trying to like, pick on girl like, you know, get a girlfriend, like, I know, it was the word like, that was the end of my life, the end of my world, if I gotta know, in high school from a girl to ask her to a dance, like, and it was just over, by the way that happened.


Lori Ann Fox  [06:15]

Mine was not winning a class because I grew up riding and showing horses. So if I didn’t win, I felt like I failed somehow. And when I was learning to do something new, like jump, or sliding stops, or spins, or whatever it happened to be, you know, when you first do it, you’re like, oh, gosh, I’m gonna come off, I’m gonna fall, I’m gonna break something, you know, there’s always this, oh, come off a horse enough times you figure it out, you just get backed up and keep going.


Steve Fretzin  [06:38]

Yeah, these kinds of quotes, and like failing forward, like, these are the kinds of things that like, we need to get our kids or teenagers like set up for now. So they understand that failure is only an opportunity to learn, or it’s an opportunity to move forward and do better on the next try. Like, these are like life skills that I wish I had learned when I was younger, I just, you know, had to wait until I went to sales training or went to like some, you know, you know, job where I had a really, you know, the exciting manager to like, get this kind of the kind of goods that I probably should have had and would have made me more successful in college probably?


Lori Ann Fox  [07:12]

Well, I think it kind of goes with the Richard Branson quote, I think it is about if somebody gives you an opportunity, and you don’t think you can do it, take it anyway and learn. Yeah, it’s that same kind of concept to me, because I see that one a lot nowadays, okay, it’s that same concept, in my own mind, of just take the shot on yourself, like you can learn and grow and you can do and be whoever you want. You know, that


Steve Fretzin  [07:35]

might be the theme of this show now, because I know your background, and where we’re gonna go with all of this is like, you know, take your shot, like, you’ve got one shot, and there’s a kind of, there’s a quote, another, there’s another good quote, I’m going to bring up, maybe not, not now, but later that, you know, it’s just like, you know, you go your whole life, you know, trying to like, you know, wait for your retirement. And meanwhile you you missed your whole life, because you’re waiting to like, enjoy your retirement, but you should be enjoying the whole ride up to it, not just waiting to like, enjoy your retirement with some kind of cool, like, that is really good. But


Lori Ann Fox  [08:06]

I think one that that reminds me of is the one where I wish we could do it backwards, where we had because they always say you have all the time, but none of the money when you’re young. And when you’re old, you have all of the all of the money, but you don’t have as much time left. So if you could flip it, you can enjoy all the wisdom and the money. And then you have all the time.


Steve Fretzin  [08:27]

Alright, check this out. I just pulled up this quote, it’s by Ed’s from Alan Watts. And it’s super cool. The most dangerous risk of all the risk of spending your life not doing what you want on the bet you can buy yourself the freedom to do it later. Oh, that’s my macro, right? So like you’re spinning your wheels your whole life to get to this point where you can buy yourself that freedom or retirement, only to realize in your retirement that you you should have been enjoying things along the way. You should have been enjoying the life up to that 65 years seven of your age, and you didn’t want a risk. Oh, yeah, I want to bet it all on that retirement. Then you get into retirement like my I know my dad loves retirement. He’s 87 living in Marco Island. Look, you know, he’s got that life. But I also know he spends like two hours playing solitaire a day. I mean, I’d want to kill myself if I had to spend two hours a day playing solitaire, by the way I did the math on that over the last 15 years. It’s it’s years of his life playing solitaire. So but he enjoys it. So I guess that’s okay. I don’t know.


Lori Ann Fox  [09:33]

Well, I two of my parents are retired. The other two still work part time. Been the two that are retired, literally, their lives revolve around the dogs and the iPads and TV. They binge watch them. Yeah. Don’t you guys get bored. You’re like, No, we’re good. And I’m like, I don’t think I could do it. I mean, I just started learning to golf for goodness sake, because what’s the point of waiting?


Steve Fretzin  [09:58]

To wait to retire to golf and Then you know, you’ve missed


Lori Ann Fox  [10:03]

your A’s don’t want to go, you know, whatever. Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [10:06]

well, anyway, this has been, we do the whole show like this. But we’ve got to get into the we got into get into the weeds on some other things. But Loriann Fox is the GC and COO for law Mehta, which is a exciting new startup in the legal tech space that we’re gonna get into in a few minutes. But welcome to the show. And please give us a little bit of your background, because you have really done a lot in the legal space. I mean, that could be the next 20 minutes, but we’ll keep it to the Reader’s Digest version, if you if you would.


Lori Ann Fox  [10:35]

The Reader’s Digest version is I have been extraordinarily blessed. I every role or position I’ve taken over the years has let me grow and flourish and develop as a lawyer and as a person, which is really what I’ve always looked for. So I when I first started out, I was a litigator, it was short lived. Then I did some jury consulting, I went with a startup I was with the Small Business Administration, like there was this complex time where I just did a whole lot of stuff to figure it out. And then I went with a large global company, was able to really grow and learn through that. You started out just as kind of a junior attorney in all honesty, and then grew it into government relations and working with states and writing legislation and then went in as GC for another company. And then came over to law medo as GC and COO. And it’s been a fantastic ride, because it’s also been mixed with a ton of legal tech and watching legal practice and the practice of law change and grow over the years.


Steve Fretzin  [11:41]

Yeah, we’re gonna get into the weeds on the law medo in a few minutes, but I wanted to just ask you, because of your background is so deep, the sort of like, how have you seen the evolution of the legal practice, even in the last like, 15 years? Like, what have you really seen how it’s changed and evolved?


Lori Ann Fox  [11:58]

You know, it’s really interesting, because if I go back far enough, I will tell you, I started out as a legal secretary and paralegal in college. That’s, that was the last thing I did. That’s how I decided to go to law school. And so I can go back actually further, but it’s interesting, just in terms of technology, even, you know, gone are the days of fax machines, gone are the days of the old BlackBerry that everybody used to live by, do you have your state or?


Steve Fretzin  [12:25]

Not anymore, but I loved it. When I had a Blackberry. I was all about that Blackberry.


Lori Ann Fox  [12:29]

See, I hated the Blackberry. I never wanted it because that little keyboard confused me. I was like, no, no, no. So I always had something different


Steve Fretzin  [12:38]

assassin on that thing with with my thumb.


Lori Ann Fox  [12:41]

Yeah, so I had one of those old HTCs where you can slide the phone up and it had a full QWERTY keyboard, because I was a beast on that with some typing.


Steve Fretzin  [12:49]

And there’s something funny I actually sold for a company called Sky towel years ago, there were the ones that had that clamshell to a pager back when nobody had a Blackberry wasn’t even a thing yet. And people were paging with this. You know, it was like a one advance pager. Yeah, that was like the big deal at the time.


Lori Ann Fox  [13:07]

Yeah, so. So you know, you we’ve watched it kind of go from these older concepts of the BlackBerry where you had to be in the office. And I think that’s been one of the biggest changes we’ve seen was, it used to be that if you were a lawyer, you had to be in your office and available and working in order to be able to build a client, which is still an older concept that’s just beginning to change. I think, with many firms or with some firms, I think we’re starting to see that evolution. Finally, just in terms of does the billable hour really work for everyone? And can we practice law in a better way? So


Steve Fretzin  [13:43]

I think we’ve seen the technology change in terms of technology that we use, as well as how we work and being able to have the freedom of, you know, being on your smartphone, and you can be available to answer a quick question for a client or you get an email or it’s an emergency and you know, you can take the time, or you can have someone else step in to help if you’re unavailable. Yeah, it’s interesting, because I feel like the technology has distracted us a tremendous amount in life in general, whether it’s social media, and whether it’s just all the different options for software’s and everything but at the same time, it’s also made things so efficient. I mean, things that we weren’t doing even a couple of years ago with Zoom and other other automations have really streamline the way we run our businesses practices. The way that we like I don’t take a check anymore. Like I maybe once a month a check rolls in, I go What’s this, oh, Pisa, whatever, like, you know, and then I deposited on my phone, I used to have to run it through like a check machine or I had to bring it in the lot of deposit form like none of it anymore. Now I take a snapshot of it, it’s deposited, but with more it’s all ACH credit card like it’s all automated. So like collections is nothing like I don’t even know why I’m paying my book and No, she’s not listening to this but A my bookkeepers charging me the same when she used to have to like, like, reach out and get money in now she doesn’t have to do any of that. And I didn’t, you know, I haven’t changed anything because I’m a nice guy. But and also, you know, you got to pay people more as you go. So,


Lori Ann Fox  [15:13]

but yeah, it tasted inflation telling everybody, especially right now


Steve Fretzin  [15:17]

yeah don’t want to lose a good bookkeeper over over nickels and dimes. So I think I think we’re right, you know, the evolution of the practice in in Are you seeing, especially with the great resignation things changing where it’s just a different game, you know, in some ways,


Lori Ann Fox  [15:35]

you know, I actually kind of like where we are with the great resignation when I looked at it from the outside in, in not being necessarily one that resigned and changed that have definitely changed my my roles over the last few years. I love the fact that there now is more of a focus on self care, and what what do you value most. And it doesn’t mean that you can’t still value your income, or your compensation. I think that there’s been a shift that shift to also being good humans and taking care of ourselves so that we have longevity, in order to be able to do the things that we love. And like for me, I’m lucky I do the things I love every day. Because that was instilled in me from a very young age. My dad always said, you know, whatever your passion is, follow that. And it’ll never feel like work. And you’ll always be happy. Yeah, so needless to say, I was pretty lucky with my dad.


Steve Fretzin  [16:34]

Yeah, me too. My father said, you know, if you if you want to be a similar, he didn’t say follow what you love. But he said, you know, own your own business, like don’t work for someone else and be, you know, where you have to basically be told what to do every day. I mean, that’s, that’s not a great way unless, you know, again, for some people, that’s the only way for me, it would be terrible. And I’ve never been great at you know, being around bosses and I’ve kind of always wanted to marched my own drum. But I think the great resignation to your point, I mean, health and wellness, people deciding to go out on their own and live their own dream. And, and maybe even taking a little nip at the profitability and model of the big law firms mid market law firms, because they can’t keep playing by the same rules from the 60s 70s 80s 90s. There’s things that are going to have to change and evolve. And this is kind of brought it and I don’t know how it’s gonna play out because they’re paying people record dollars. And I don’t know who’s gonna end up taking the hit on that at some point down the road. But it can’t, it can’t that can’t play out long term, and be sustainable.


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Lori Ann Fox  [18:26]

Well, I think we’re starting to see some of those larger firms shift to I mean, gosh, it’s probably been a minimum of five years, I saw one of the top 100 firms globally, move to where they were willing to take a percentage with for their payment model. So instead of it being hourly, they especially on deal work, they’ll look at it and say, Okay, we’ll work through the deal with you. And this is our percentage on the deal. And and so instead of making it billable in the same old way, they’ve shifted, we’ve also been watching law firms create incubators or other companies where they’re going more into tech, you know, we saw one, the ABA, legal tech show, in fact, with Wilson. So I think we’re starting to see those shifts, we also have the sandboxes that we’ve seen where you can for the first time in the US, you can have non lawyers own a portion of a firm, DCA allows it, I think Utah is one of the sandboxes and I can’t remember recall if it was Oregon or Washington, Arizona, Arizona, okay. And one of them shut down a sandbox recently where they kind of quit investing in it. Yeah. But it’s an interesting idea, because it’s something that other countries have had for a long time that the US has really been reluctant and and I’ll admit that I have some hesitancies as well as a lawyer in terms of could there potentially be an impact on the ethics issues? And how could we sort through those to still make it work and does it really help people in the end? It’s kind of like the Stanford the incubator project or sandbox, it’s going on, where is it? Illinois, you’ll probably know better than me state. But there’s a state where they’re allowing paraprofessionals or non lawyers to give certain types of legal advice to help people. And that was kind of interesting as well.


Steve Fretzin  [20:19]

And it might be Illinois. I don’t I don’t think so only because I know Illinois, generally speaking is like a late adopter, like they’re not going to be the first to the to the show. They’re going to come around later. I mean, even like, Legal Ethics and CLAS. I mean, it took you know, I started working with lawyers in 2008, with the last, you know, economic downfall, and they weren’t even going to let me talk about marketing, sales, anything business development, like it was completely off the table. And then over the years, they slowly started to knock down their walls and say, Okay, maybe this is a topic that lawyers need to, you know, and should get credit for.


Lori Ann Fox  [20:53]

And it’s an it’s an interesting idea. And a lot of people look at it as an access to justice concept. Yeah, I look at it and say, I’m all for it. So long as that whoever that is, still has a lawyer kind of oversight to make certain that there’s nothing that goes sideways, because that’s the one thing you don’t want to do or that we want to avoid is a client of either a paraprofessional or a lawyer, not getting the right service that they really need. Because there’s so much nuance.


Steve Fretzin  [21:24]

Yeah. And I think about like, you know, either the big corporations, the big consultancies of the world, that Deloitte to the world, that start taking over law firms, I mean, they buy out a Kirkland, or they buy out whatever, and then they just start buying ever because they have so much money, right? It’s like, it’s like Amazon buying whole foods, it was like a drop in the bucket. And now they own Whole Foods, and they can buy anyone they want, they can start buying up law firms left the right to start controlling all the law firms in the country. I mean, it’s it can you know, what direction is it gonna go with all the money that’s sitting around and private equity and everything, but


Lori Ann Fox  [21:57]

well, and I remember when that was a UPL issue and unauthorized practice of law is she because some of the big accounting firms did want to purchase firms many years ago. And that was fairly remote. And but they’ve also been hiring lawyers for decades, because they will keep legal consultancy staff for those big projects, even though they may not necessarily be practicing law, in the same manner that you do in a firm or even in house. There is still that consultancy opportunity.


Steve Fretzin  [22:27]

Yeah, it could affect I mean, again, if if consultancies, start bringing in, you know, larger in house teams and building firms or even companies start building out their own law firms, right, instead, they have their in House Counsel’s right, because they also then just buy a firm or just build out a firm that have the best people that they want to pick off. And now they don’t need the the to send, you know, business out to outside counsel. And that can be a thing. So, stuff going on. And I think


Lori Ann Fox  [22:55]

that’s one of the reasons we’ve seen the legal practice develop in a way where, especially with some of the smaller firms and solo practitioners, they will actually serve as general counsel, or as an outside general counsel for the company, because maybe they don’t need internal GC yet. Or maybe they just want, they want to manage costs in a more efficient manner. The interesting thing about building out a firm for an internal legal department is that you never know what the expertise is you need or where you’re going to need it. So with a global company, for example, I might need somebody who can handle voluntary liquidation in the UK, or a litigation matter in Quebec, which is very different from the rest of Canada. So being able to have those practitioners who are licensed in the right places, I think could still be a little challenging, which is why I think we’ve started looking at alternative billing models, more so than anything else, like how can we make it more efficient with outside counsel so that it’s a win win? For everyone? Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [23:57]

And that’s something that was coming up a long time ago, when I first got into legal, you know, someone said, alternative billing arrangements. And I was like, what is that? And I started learning about and I thought, wow, that’s the future right there like figuring out how to get rid of the billable hours as the rule of thumb and moving to something and then it never really, or hadn’t, really, it’s kind of fizzled a little bit. And now, I mean, it’s coming back. But it’s, it’s just, it’s very slow moving.


Lori Ann Fox  [24:24]

Yet legal has a tendency to be a bit slow to a dock. I think that we’re, as a profession, we tend to be a bit conservative and weary on exactly where we want to go and how do we want to get there? Plus, there’s that whole thing of many people fear change, because they think, again, is that expectation concept where you, you feel like all these other things are gonna happen and they may or may not actually occur. So you kind of have to work through okay, well, if it were to happen, how would I want to address that so that I can still move forward and grow.


Steve Fretzin  [24:55]

So this is a conversation leading all the way into where we’re gonna head right now, which is Lamido. And so I want you to explain what law NATO is how it works. And this was your you know, it’s another opportunity to talk about, you know, the theme of this show, which I guess is like taking your shot, you’re taking a shot at this law, NATO thing, which I think is awesome. And you’re working with, with Tommy, who I think the world of he’s an amazing guy that I’ve known for, you know, I don’t know, six months or something like that, but he’s terrific. So talk about Lamido, what is it and go from there?


Lori Ann Fox  [25:29]

Well, I’m gonna concur and say, I love Tom as well, he and I met a few years ago, three companies ago, I think it was, and kind of got to know each other a little bit and stayed in touch. And when he invited me into law, NATO, you know, had to have a long talk with my family about taking the shot. Because it was it’s such a phenomenal opportunity. And but it’s illegal tech startup. So you’re, you’re taking a risk and a gamble. I felt like it was really the right one to take. So what la medo does is he basically created a rideshare app for legal services. Not really that kind of, so it’s kind of like an Uber for lawyers. The idea being that you can go on your phone, as a consumer or potential client, and you can look for a lawyer, you get full transparency in terms of their years of experience, their areas of expertise, and what they actually charge you still by the hour, but what do they charge you, and then you’re able to find the right person in the right place. It’s all virtual. So you don’t have to be in somebody’s office, you don’t have to get on a zoom. So it’s very convenient. And it’s a pay as you go concept where you find the right lawyer, you put a credit card in, you’ve booked a virtual consultation, you have it, the lawyer along the way gets noticed that they have a new potential consultation, they decide whether to take it, does it fit them? And are they the right fit? And then they say, okay, you know, here’s my letter of engagement for the console, you know, here’s what I’m available. Once the consultation completes, the client’s credit card automatically gets charged. So to your point, there’s no collections. And then the lawyer is automatically paid minus the technology fee and the processing fee, which is a pass through as opposed to an upcharge. And so everybody’s happy. So the lawyers get the opportunity to build their business, and clients get the help they need when they need it as they need it. So, to me, that’s a win win. We don’t dictate anything. It’s all between the lawyer and client. So what someone charges even like I’ve had lawyers ask me, especially friends that have joined law, Mehta, they’re like, Well, what should I charge? What do you what do you charge? And they’re like, Well, I charge this, okay, you’re like, but is that too much? You choose? This is your business? What do you want to charge for that initial consultation, because it’s the opportunity for you to get new business. And I love the My passion is helping people if you haven’t been able to tell. And so allow me to does that, because I’m able to help clients or potential clients, find the right lawyer, and help lawyers find new clients that want to hire them, and they can help. So there’s


Steve Fretzin  [28:07]

a number of things going on sort of simultaneously with this with this legal tech concept. And it’s, it’s an actual working thing, this is in the market, and I’ve got it on my phone, I’m not even looking for a lawyer. I just, I was excited about it. It’s so it’s, it’s the it’s the access to justice. It’s the idea that you know what the rate is like going in, there’s no secrets, right. And you can get just get everything handled through an app, which is kind of what we all want, like when I do open table, or when I want to do Uber to your point earlier, I just want click a button, boom, boom, boom, things just happen. And I can just get through whatever I have to get through. And that’s really what this solves this is sort of solving for all the pardon my Yiddish, but you know, mishegoss, that’s going on around, you know, around the, you know, trying to get get that access.


Lori Ann Fox  [28:54]

Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I think Tom, when he was developing this saw was that lawyers want to help people, and they want to get paid to help people. So there’s full transparency. But clients don’t always know where to go. Because if you’re like most people, and you get on the internet, you can get overwhelmed so quickly, and you can get 15,000 different sites that will give you different information. Some of its accurate Some of it’s not, because I’ve been asked over the years to look at various sites of information where it’s supposed to be educational, and elegant and like that it’s wrong. And they’re like, What do you mean, I was like, Well, if you go back and look at the statute, it says this, because I’ve also taught continuing ed for years. And so I’m like, That’s just wrong. I said, now you’re telling a consumer something that’s wrong, and then they’re gonna lose trust and faith. This way. They get the information they need. It may not be the information they want. I mean, that’s the thing that I think we all recognize with clients is they may not like what they hear. They will appreciate the honesty of here’s your situation and here are your options. Is the


Steve Fretzin  [30:00]

unequal equivalency for lawyers that are listening right now to get get into law made oh now, because it’s like it’s like the early stages of Avo. Like people really weren’t did great with that when it was first out. And then over time, you know, things change and it got it got so heavily used that it wasn’t meant not saying that would happen with them, you know, but I’m just saying like Is now the right time for lawyers to get in and get their, their the app set up and get get their profile in and get get set up.


Lori Ann Fox  [30:28]

I think it’s a great time, because there was a Clio study, I believe it was last year, that said 79% of consumers want to meet with lawyers, virtually, they don’t want to have to go to an office. So there are studies out there that are showing us that this is what clients want. Well, it also makes the lawyers life a whole lot easier. So it’s definitely the right time to get in. And we’re already building law medo out so that we support the lawyers and clients even more. So like we began the Academy, which is an education program that kicked off in February, and we focused on small midsize business. So it’s a 12 week course where you get kind of like a mini JD kind of concept where you understand the nuts and bolts of the legal issues from birth, or cradle to death, cradle to grave kind of concept. So that when you do talk with a lawyer, you know what the issue is how to get the right information, and you don’t waste time, and you don’t have all of those questions around. Well, what about this? Or what about that, because you have enough knowledge to go in? We’re also working to build that out for individuals as well on personal issues.


Steve Fretzin  [31:35]

Is this? I’m sorry? I’ve got another question. Go ahead. Right. So is this is this primarily for lawyers doing personal injury, family estate, like the stuff that’s more consumer based? It’s not something for the IP attorney that’s dealing with GCS at major corporations, correct?


Lori Ann Fox  [31:55]

No, actually, it’s for everybody. And what we’ve seen thus far, is most of the clients that have come in through law medo, to the lawyers have been business oriented colleagues, we also do see the personal issues come through. So it’s really for broad based and any particular any issue that you could come up with, we have personal injury, we have criminal defense, family law, estate planning, but then we have the, you know, the experts on business expansion or tax planning. So you really can get into some of those more business focused issues, contract disputes, were really you want somebody who understands what those issues are, as opposed to someone who maybe handles them every once in a while, because they can become so technical. Got it? Got it.


Steve Fretzin  [32:44]

So, you know, I want to wrap up, wrap up this interview with with Game Changing book segment. But any final thoughts on on either law, NATO, or the where it’s where it’s going, like where Islam NATO headed? And where, where’s the, you know, how is this going to benefit and the future of legal and access to justice and all of that?


Lori Ann Fox  [33:04]

Well, I believe that law, NATO is a great opportunity, not only for lawyers, but also for potential clients, because it’s when you need it as you need it, you can also get full transparency. I feel like it’s an completely unlimited opportunity. Because right now we’re focused on initial consultation, and helping lawyers build their brand and business, what you do, right, helping them figure out how do we grow and do more. So I feel like it’s completely unlimited in terms of the opportunity for everyone to benefit from it. And when you talk about access to justice, I happen to love that concept. Because how hard is it if you’re out in a rural area? And you’re not even sure what do you need? And how do you meet with somebody or maybe you don’t want everybody in the small town to know what’s going on. Now you have access to a lawyer who has the expertise you need in the same state or area of law because of its trademark, for example, that’s federal, it’s not much of a state issue. Unless you’re doing state trademark, sorry, my my little brain goes off and in crazy ways, but I think it’s, it’s there for everybody. And in terms of my final thoughts, I really believe in taking the shot on yourself when you’re ready. And having somebody like Steve or whoever it is you go to for what you’re doing, I think is really important, that support system that will cheerlead you on and help guide you and teach you the skills you need. Yeah, awesome. That’s


Steve Fretzin  [34:30]

exactly the point and take your shot, live your life and don’t wait don’t wait for retirement to be happy. Don’t wait for the you know, the, especially with lawyers building books, and this is kind of something I go back back to over and over again. No lawyers that wait too long to get their own clients, lawyers that wait too long to build their brand. And they realize you know, when they’re in their 50s that wow, I’m just doing everyone else’s work. i No one really knows who I am. I’m the best kept secret. And then they come to me and I’m like we can do it. I know you’re in your 50s will do and you still got 20 years left or whatever the number is, but they always say the same thing. Geez, I just wish I had and then bank 30s 40s. You know, it’s all just not last time because they continue to be better lawyers. But anyway, we’re, you know, we’re on the same page. You know, it’s all about helping lawyers to get more business live better lives. And ultimately, you know, when you no win at this game of life, and so that’s where we are. So that’s a good lead in then to Game Changing books, the segment on my new friends favorite book and why and what’s a great business book that sort of changed things for you. So tell me about Psycho Cybernetics.


Lori Ann Fox  [35:40]

So it’s a book by Maxwell Maltz. And we actually started listening to it for our golf game. Don’t laugh, because I just started learning to golf. Alright, a couple a few months ago, I think I’ve been on the course maybe 20 times. So and I’m still chipping in putting anybody golf. So you guys will all appreciate this. But a dear friend recommended the book to me. And we have a tendency to listen to it. Because it’s all about how do you get out of your own way. And the more you talk to yourself positively, about you can do it, you can accomplish it and think through and visualize what does success look like? How does it feel for you? That’s really, to me is the core of that book. Now others may take something else away from it. But that resonated for me. And I think everyone reads a book and something resonates with them.


Steve Fretzin  [36:27]

Sometimes I read a 300 page book. And the whole book comes down to like, two or three sentences of like, what that book is really getting to the heart and I kicked myself I go, couldn’t have just send me the two or three sentences, but they don’t do that they want to get the book out and everything else. I do want to share something with you that that because I went through some golf lessons back years ago, and I thought this was the greatest takeaway, like in the history of my entire life playing golf, which I started when I was 14, I’m now 52 ish. Um, the golf pros had me had me swing at a at like 10 or 15 balls into a screen. And I got done SWAC and slapping them into the screen and he stops. He goes, Steve, do you enjoy your swing? And I go, why? He goes, he goes, Do you enjoy your swing? I go, What are you talking about? He says, What do you think golf is? I said it’s getting the ball in the hole down there. And he says, Well, that’s the end result of of it. But what the game is really, it’s about enjoying your swing about how you feel as that golf club is pulled back and releases and strikes the ball and follows through. And he says that’s the actual game of golf is enjoying the swing. And then the result because you enjoy your swing. And because your swing is is this fluid. That’s what drives the result. And I thought what a great golf lesson. But by the way, what a great life lesson. If you’re not enjoying the swing of business development, if you’re not enjoying the swing of legal tech, whatever it is you’re doing, then what is it all about? You’re just trying to get to this result of what socking money away the result of retirement, which takes us all the way back to where we started. Glory. Okay, so anyway, what I mean, what do you think about that? You ever think about that and join the swing swinging a golf club?


Lori Ann Fox  [38:11]

Yeah. So I actually love that as a swing caught. And I so I’m a little different because I haven’t learned the full swing yet since I said I would just I’m only allowed to chip and putt. Although, over the weekend, I learned bunker shots. Yeah. And I was super excited that I learned it. And I’m not great at it. Don’t get me wrong. I’ve done it, you know, two days 30 minutes in a bunker. But it’s so awesome to think about, you know, how does it feel and and I love that is the swing thought because for me, I get frustrated when it doesn’t get the result that I want. But I’ve been learning and my coaches been telling me love the sound that you hear like when that flange hits the sand or when you hit the sweet spot. It’s kind of like when I learned tennis because I did that as an adult too, because horses take up all your time as a kid. But when you hit that sweet spot on a racket, that to me was the best thing ever with that feel. And I do the same thing every day with my work as well. I love what I do. And I feel so very blessed for it.


Steve Fretzin  [39:12]

Yeah. Well, I think we’re inserting and this is why our conversation went like five to 10 minutes over the normal time that we do this interview because we’re just we’re I think we’re very similar people I knew when we met and when we talked before our interview today that we were going to go over because we’re just we’re and I know that this is the beginning of like, right now it’s the beginning of I think a really good relationship, friendship, etc. And I’m very excited about LA medo. Shout out to Tom Tom Tang and I wish you the best I want to be a big supporter of you guys moving forward. If people want to get in touch with you or they want to get the app what how do they get how do they set themselves up?


Lori Ann Fox  [39:49]

It’s really simple. You can go to law mito.com And if I duck a golfer it is


Steve Fretzin  [39:56]

well keep in mind this is mostly audio but there’ll be a little video


Lori Ann Fox  [39:59]

okay. So it’s lamido.com or you can email admin@lamido.com. It’s L A wm@o.com. And here’s the great part. You don’t have to fiddle with a lot of tech issues. If you email us, we actually have someone on staff who will onboard you. So you don’t even have to fill out your own profile. You just have to give them the information and tell them where to find it. So if you give them your website, they’ll go in pull it all and confirm with you that it’s accurate. So it’s super simple for lawyers. Because we didn’t want to make it yet another thing we had to learn how to do


Steve Fretzin  [40:37]

nice Laurie and Fox, thank you so much for being my guest and sharing your wisdom and your background and mazing stuff and you took your shot multiple times. Well, thank


Lori Ann Fox  [40:45]

you Steve. It’s been a true pleasure today. Take care


Steve Fretzin  [40:48]

Awesome, awesome. Hey everybody, thank you for spending some time with Laurie myself. Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways a couple of good ideas the future illegal taking your shot motivated excited. I’m kind of shot out of a cannon right now and just kind of walking out of this interview. Remember, it’s all about being that lawyer someone who’s competent organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take your shot, everybody take care be well be safe toxin.


Narrator  [41:13]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes