Louis Goodman: From Yellow Pages to SEO – The Evolution of Law Firm Marketing

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Louis Goodman discuss:

  • Marketing a law practice in the 90s and how it has evolved today.
  • The power of SEO for your website.
  • Creating good content to encourage backlinks to your website.
  • Utilizing content across multiple platforms.

Key Takeaways:

  • If you’re going to put money into marketing, put money into SEO.
  • People pick up their phone and do Google searches now, rather than picking up a phone book. You need to be visible for those who have an immediate problem and need an immediate solution.
  • Repurpose content that you create to work across multiple platforms and find ways to encourage others to share links to the content you’ve created.


“The key is getting backlinks to your website. And the way you get backlinks to your website, is by having good content so that other websites will link to your website, and you want to encourage people to link to your website.” —  Louis Goodman


Connect with Louis Goodman:  

Website: https://www.louisgoodman.com/

Podcast: https://www.lovethylawyer.com/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2aeWsyfHKAfCEMgR7wD7bg

Twitter: https://twitter.com/louisjgoodman

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Law-Office-of-Louis-J-Goodman-338125606393295/


Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



people, lawyer, seo, podcast, website, louis, yellow pages, practice, area, attorney, google, goodman, business, called, link, san francisco, hayward, enjoy, marijuana, east bay regional


Narrator, Louis Goodman, Steve Fretzin


Louis Goodman  [00:00]

Once you get into the world of podcasting, you learn that it is a marketing tool. And for some people they really are using it to, to support themselves to, you know, get people to make donations to sell advertising, and to promote whatever their service or product is.


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, we’ll take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am the host, Steve Fretzin. You’ve heard me say that if you’ve listened to show a bunch of times, you think you know who I am by now, but maybe not. Listen, we’re all about helping those lawyers to take control of their careers, financial freedom, and build that practice, enjoy your career, and don’t live with regret. And those are the kinds of things that we’re talking about on this show, trying to give you tips and tricks and ideas and ways of growing your law practice in less time and less with less energy involved. And I’ve got a guest today that’s gonna lay it out for you. He’s been doing this a long time, as he had told me a few minutes ago, over 30 years. So we’ve got Louis Goodman, he is the principal at Lewis J. Goodman associates and associates are what is that right?


Louis Goodman  [01:32]

Office of Louis J. Goodman.


Steve Fretzin  [01:34]

All right. Well, we’re gonna leave it at that. And at least I didn’t miss mispronounced your name. I’ve had I have a habit of doing that. So you’ve got to get in St. Louis. So that’s, that’s a positive right?


Louis Goodman  [01:44]

That’s a positive right there. Yeah. i


Steve Fretzin  [01:47]

People call me Stevie sometimes. And I go Stevie, what is that? What are you doing? Come on, it’s Steve. Anyway, do me a favor and give a little background on your law practice and then catch people up to speed and then we’re gonna get into the the nuts and bolts on on marketing and building a law practice.


Louis Goodman  [02:02]

My practice is very focused on criminal defense in Alameda County, California, Alameda County is Oakland, Hayward, Fremont, Livermore, Pleasanton, those areas. It’s very close to San Francisco. And I started out in the Alameda County District Attorney’s office. So I learned the Alameda County system, and I was involved in that office for close to 10 years before I came out, and started practicing on my own. So it’s where I know how things work. And so I’ve had a very close focus on criminal defense in Alameda County.


Steve Fretzin  [02:44]

And has that been your focus through your entire career? Or how did that evolve over time?


Louis Goodman  [02:49]

That’s been my focus over my entire career, I had given some thought to moving into some other areas that interested me. But in thinking about it, I just decided that it was more effective both for me and for my clients to be really focused on one thing, not to try and do too much.


Steve Fretzin  [03:12]

Yeah, we all look at the what I call the shiny pennies, right? We just see him everywhere. And we know that looks interesting. And that looks good. And I should try that. And I’m not saying don’t take chances or don’t, you know, look at the shiny pennies and kind of weigh them out. But I think most times, we need to focus on what either we love or what we’re good at doing or what makes good business sense, right?


Louis Goodman  [03:30]

Yes, I mean, I’ll be very specific about it. My dad was an attorney, and did a lot of estate planning and probate. And I’ve always been interested in that as a subject, I still am. And I thought about moving in that direction. But as I started to do that, I realized that it was going to require in order to not commit malpractice, really getting up to speed on a very new subject. And I decided that rather than try and move into something where I was going to need to do a lot of re education, that I was going to use the skills that I already had to build on what I knew and what I knew that I liked.


Steve Fretzin  [04:15]

Yeah, I think a lot of a lot of attorneys in are interested in learning an entirely new area of practice. But I think if you think about the future of the area that you’re in, and you see it sort of dwindling or dying out, like that might be a really good incentive to look at other other areas. But if your areas like criminals not going away anytime soon, right. So not a limit. There’s no crime hasn’t been unlimited yet is that is that a safe assumption?


Louis Goodman  [04:39]

That is a very safe assumption. And as long as alcohol continues to be sold, legally or illegally, we will have plenty of encounters with the police.


Steve Fretzin  [04:53]

That’s it. That’s it and that’s so much changed, not changing subjects, but just interested in your take, I mean, legalized marijuana knots too much of an issue with the police as alcohol. You’re not.


Louis Goodman  [05:05]

Marijuana has never been a big issue with with the police, right? People smoke marijuana, and they tend not to behave in a way that attracts the attention of the police because of their marijuana smoking. It. It just I’m not making a political argument for against marijuana legalization. But the reality is, is that alcohol and methamphetamine are the problem drugs. Marijuana really is not.


Steve Fretzin  [05:32]

Yeah, the police aren’t stopping someone from going and getting a pizza is I think what we’re talking about here, no, are going to sleep. Now that I know that from from experience, I know that I’ve heard


Louis Goodman  [05:45]

Well, interestingly, in you know, in California, we recently legalized marijuana. And there was a huge concern about what this was going to do for marijuana driving under the influence cases. Yeah. And I said at the time, it’s not going to do anything. Because first of all, the law has not been preventing anybody from smoking marijuana or driving under the influence of marijuana. And we have very few stops, not no stops, but very few stops, for DUI, the turnout to be marijuana arrests. So it just it just hasn’t been a big issue.


Steve Fretzin  [06:23]

Yeah. Okay. So let’s so let’s, let’s move away from that for a moment. Although it’s certainly an interesting topic. And I’m in Chicago, and it’s all legal here. And yeah, not hearing too much about it. In in talk about marketing, a law practice 30 years ago, right, going back to say, the 90s and marketing today, and how has that evolved in your in what you’ve seen, and also what you’ve done?


Louis Goodman  [06:49]

Yeah, it’s huge. It, the first thing that I did, when I opened my practice, was take out a few full page, Yellow Page ads chart, and they were insanely expensive. I mean, I was paying three times as much to the yellow pages as I was on the mortgage to my house. And it was scary, because, you know, I, I’d come out of the district attorney’s office, I basically had $2,500, in this little DEA account that I started my practice with. And I was putting every dime that I had into Yellow Pages advertising. But the good news is, is it really did return on the investment. It brought in business very, very quickly. As soon as those ads hit the books, the phone started ringing with people who were seeing those ads. But it wasn’t long before the internet came along. And it very, very quickly occurred to me that getting on the internet was really a good idea. And I was also getting better clients from the Internet. In other words, people who were more advanced in their careers more advanced financially, more intellectually advanced, brighter people. And this was in, I would say, the kind of the mid 90s, when when that started occurring. And that shift started taking place. And gradually, I, you know, really developed a, you know, pretty good website and worked on all of the things that are involved with the Internet. And, you know, quite obviously, that’s, that’s where it is these days, and even the Yellow Pages, people will come in and try and sell you at Yellow Pages advertising with the notion that they have an internet presence that can help you market through their services. I’m not convinced of that. But but that’s their pitch anyway.


Steve Fretzin  [08:50]

Yeah. I mean, if their name is Google, then maybe you want to take a little lesson. But if they’re known as you know, ABC Yellow Pages, maybe maybe they might they might be fending for business the same way everyone else is, you know, clawing and scratching. So talk about your practice areas that relates to current marketing, and what are the things that that you’re doing and that you’re seeing are working to drive business in the door and to stay sustainable and growing year after year?


Louis Goodman  [09:18]

Well, I think the answer to that is SEO. And, you know, search engine optimization, so that your website comes up on Google searches, you know what I mean? That’s easier said than done. And I think that if you’re going to put money into marketing, I think that the people who seem to be doing well with it in my area, are people who are putting money into SEO. And the reason for that is people you know, in the old days, they would they get in trouble in any way and they pick up the Yellow Pages in order to find a service that would solve their problem. Like if they’re good You know, pipe broke, they pick up the Yellow Pages and look for plumbers and the guy that had the full page ad right at the beginning would probably do quite well in terms phone calls. Well, that doesn’t happen anymore. People pick up their phone, and they do a Google search for plumber. And they will, you know, come up with who’s ever SEO is best? Well, criminal law practice is similar in the sense that people get arrested for driving under the influence for domestic violence. And they have an immediate problem that they need an immediate solution for. And so they pick up the phone, and they do what used to be a Yellow Pages search on the phone. And if you’re not set up with the SEO, they’re not gonna find you.


Steve Fretzin  [10:48]

Yeah. And it’s it’s not something where they necessarily want to get a referral from their estate planner, by the way, estate planning attorney, I’ve got, you know, I just beat beat my wife up and I need an attorney. Correct? Probably not something you want to talk about with another attorney.


Louis Goodman  [11:02]

Right. And most of the people who are shopping around for a criminal lawyer, it’s really their first and only experience with an attorney. You know, it’s not as though they’ve done a lot of transactional work with contracts and their business. You know, this is the first time they’ve ever have talked to a lawyer.


Steve Fretzin  [11:19]

Sure, sure. And so, when you talk about SEO, there are obviously companies that do that. And there’s a lot of them, especially, you know, lawyer focused ones. But is it something that you did early on, on your own through writing? And through content creation? Or did you outsource it? Or have you always outsourced it? Is there one, or is that a mix?


Louis Goodman  [11:38]

It’s a mix. You know, I started out on my own, but I outsourced it to a couple of different companies over the years, I have someone who I’ve been working with lately, who I’m very happy with. But there’s, you know, there’s a number of very good lawyer focused SEO companies. And I think if someone’s interested in, you know, boosting their internet visibility, that you really need to get involved with that. And I’ll tell you, the thing that that it’s irritating and interesting is, you know, we’re lawyers, right? We went to four years of college, we went to three years of law school, we took the bar exam, we’ve been practicing for some period of time, we have a good reputation with our colleagues, we have a good reputation with our clients, we have a good reputation with judges. And then you put up a website. And Google says, Prove to us that you’re not some kind of grifter and do it in in our language. And that I think is very difficult for attorneys was difficult for me. But that’s the thing that SEO people can help you through. I mean, it’s like, like we represent people when they have a legal issue. Well, the SEO people are essentially representing us. When we have an issue with Google. And the issue with Google is called How do you find me there?


Steve Fretzin  [13:05]

Yeah. And it’s it’s changing all the time. I mean, what all it’s what SEO, what mattered for search engine optimization five years ago, is is very different than what matters today. Can you can you in let me know if I’m if I’m overstepping here. But are there two or three things that you’ve learned about SEO, in what you’ve been working on with your current provider that you’re willing to share? As it relates to and I’m happy to kick in ideas, too, because I I’m a little bit up to date on it. But are there a couple things that you say, Yeah, this, these are a couple of new things that are going on that you need to be really aware of.


Louis Goodman  [13:40]

The thing that I’ve been led to understand from a number of places is the key is getting backlinks to your website. And the way you get backlinks to your website, is by having good content, so that other websites will link to your website. And you want to encourage people to link to your website, and You especially want to try and encourage other attorneys to link to your website.


Steve Fretzin  [14:10]

And the more and the more reputable the source. As you said earlier, that’s what Google cares about his reputation. So a reputable source that’s linking back to your site is gonna get you a lot more movement than, you know, just just, you know, Johnny Smith off the street.


Louis Goodman  [14:26]

Right. And here’s what I’ve been told about how that process was developed, which I thought was pretty interesting. You know, there. There have been any number of search engines over the years there was asked Jeeves, there’s Yahoo, there’s, you know, you name it. Yeah, but Bing, but but the brilliance of Google was that they thought about it and they said, Okay, look at academic articles, and our academic articles considered to be of Now you have with real information and the question and they solve that question by saying, Okay, how many other people are quoting those articles, in their own articles, how many of those articles are being cited? And so, if the article is cited a lot than it has some authority, so Google said, Okay, if other websites are cited a lot in different people’s websites, then the website that is getting a lot of citations has some intrinsic value. And so that helps boost the SEO, if your website is one that other people are linking to, just as, you know, one would cite an important academic authority or an important, you know, law review article.


Steve Fretzin  [15:49]

Now, this might be more challenging because of the area of focus that you have. But the other thing that I’ve heard that’s become really important lately, is the Google My Business Review. Stars. Is that are you? Are people willing to do that for you to help get your ranking up? Yes. Okay.


Louis Goodman  [16:06]

And here’s something that I do is I have a, I just have a little word document, where I have the link to the Google My Business, the link to Yelp, a link to Avvo on it, that that goes to me and I and if, you know, some client calls me up and says, Oh, Mr. Goodman, you just did such a great job for me. I really appreciate it. You know, and I mean, as you well know, that doesn’t happen all the time. But, you know, it happens. Enough. It’s nice when it happens. It’s really nice. Yeah. And I say, Well, you know, would you like to do something for me? They invariably say, Yes, here’s a look, okay, here’s what I’m gonna do, I’m gonna send you some links. And if, you know, if you could go on and just, you know, say a few nice truthful words about me, I’d appreciate it. And so, so yeah, people are willing to do that.


Steve Fretzin  [16:52]

And they don’t have to give their names, right. Any cases they can, right. So so that all that all works out for the, you know, anonymity.


Louis Goodman  [16:58]

Right. And they can be pretty generic about it, too. You know, they don’t have to say, well, you know, I was, you know, charged with, you know, a very serious criminal offense. And, you know, Mr. Goodman got it down to a couple infractions for me, you know, doesn’t have to go that way.


Steve Fretzin  [17:15]

Right. Right. And I would say one other thing about SEO is, you know, there’s a saying, and I don’t know if this is changing, but you know, content is king. And, you know, you where your content is placed matters, you know, Google My Business, of course, but I think, you know, we’ve got to think about how are we producing content as a way to get our rankings up. And so when someone types in legal business development coach, you know, I don’t care if they’re in New Jersey, or they’re in San Francisco, I want to be found, I need to be on page one, if I’m gonna get inbound calls if I’m gonna get to meet someone new. And so I think the other part of it is, you know, podcasting, blogging, writing, speaking all these different things. Have you found that to be a big part of your marketing as well?


Louis Goodman  [18:00]

You know, it’s interesting, I, I’ll put it in a shameless plug for my podcast loved by lawyer. But, you know, I, I started that podcast pretty much as a hobby. And in a sense, it still is kind of a hobby. I mean, I don’t sell advertising on it. I’m just thrilled that my friends listen to it. And it’s pretty much about Lewis, interviewing lawyers, and people connect with the legal profession who I like, you know, I mean, if they’re, if they’re my friends, I try and get them on the podcast. And so I didn’t really think about the podcast as a marketing tool. But as you well know, once you get into the world of podcasting, you learn that it is a marketing tool. And for some people, they really are using it to, to support themselves to, you know, get people to make donations to sell advertising, and to promote whatever their service or product is. And I haven’t really consciously done a lot of that with my podcast. But I do think that having the podcast gives me a certain level of credibility in the community. That’s, that’s been nice. And it’s been fun.


Steve Fretzin  [19:14]

And I don’t know if you’re finding this, but I, I outsource just about everything around my podcast. So when I when I’m doing this interview with you right now, we’re 30 minutes. I click record, I click stop. When we’re done. I then upload it into like a shared project management system that they provided for me, and I’m basically done. So it’s 30 minutes of my time, I’m not producing, I’m not editing, I’m not doing graphics. You can do that. You may be doing that. I don’t I’m gonna ask you in a second, but I don’t. And so people think podcasting is like this big expense or this big, you know, production and it’s absolutely not if you have a good production company or person helping you with it. And that’s the reason And I’m doing it because if I had to sit and edit and produce and do all this stuff, forget about it. I don’t have time for that. But for me to have a great conversation, Louis with you, and click Record, and we have this great chat, that I could do that I could do this all day. I love doing this.


Louis Goodman  [20:13]

I have to talk to you and learn some things from you.


Steve Fretzin  [20:18]

All right, we might have to talk offline. So are you doing you’re doing a lot of the production all that? Yeah, I do. I just I just, you know, curious? Well,


Louis Goodman  [20:26]

let me just say this, I really have found that I’ve enjoyed the editing process, okay, when I, when I get a raw audio file, I look at it like kind of like a piece of marble. And then it’s my job to sculpt it into something because most of my interviews are about 45 minutes to an hour long. And most of my podcasts are about 25 minutes long. I say though I am a ruthless editor. Okay. And I’ve found that that kind of helps keep things moving along in terms of listening to the podcast. So I’ve enjoyed that part of it. Maybe I’m missing something, and maybe I should be outsourcing more of that to other other people?


Steve Fretzin  [21:10]

Well, that’s Yeah, I think that’s that’s something that I think is keeping people from podcasting is that is that concern of time because lawyers are billable, and lawyers are always pressed on time. And I think that’s, that’s just it’s just a personal choice. And I there are, there are people that I talked to that are doing shows themselves and, you know, when I flaunt my, you know, my, my lack of of having to do all this editing and work, they usually ask me, who do I work with, and I pass that along and happy to do that offline with you. But the the point of podcasting, though, is the content creation. So there’s a 30 minute show, for example. Okay, that show can then be transcribed. And we can use that for SEO. Right. Recently, I interviewed had an amazing interview on if you heard this one with Jim Rogers, and he’s an expert, 30 years in diversity, equity inclusion. And I took some quotes from my show with him, put it into a Chicago Daily law bulletin article, wrote it, I thought, a great article that’s now published in the Chicago Daily global bulletin, this has been we’re recording this into September. And then I also then take that information, and then make change it up a little bit and put on my blog. So talk about multipurpose saying content for SEO, and just for general social media use, etc. Now really heads


Louis Goodman  [22:29]

  1. Yeah, it does. And I think that I have some things to learn about that as well. But I do have transcripts, I do a rough transcript through the script, an otter, and then I take that rough transcript, my secretary does help me with that. And, and, and she manages to clean up the 10 15% of it, that’s, you know, not very well automatically transcribed. And then I post the transcript, both on the podcast website, and on my law office website now so that people can find those things. And then, you know, just again, in terms of that backlink marketing, you know, I invite people who I’ve interviewed to put the link to that transcript on their website. Hopefully, maybe I pick up a backlink or two from that as Yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [23:23]

that’s really smart. It’s really smart. So before we get to the three best of which I know you’re prepared for, answer one last question for me, and then we’re going to move on and it’s every lawyer has a different definition of what success means in a career success means in a law practice, what’s your definition of success as a relates to, you know, just the way that you’re that? Well, I guess the way you define it,


Louis Goodman  [23:47]

I think it has to do with work life balance, okay, and being able to practice law and to live a life. And I think that, that for me, and I think this is one of the things that attorneys who are in practice for themselves, especially younger attorneys, especially something like I had to learn when I was a younger attorney is enjoy it. And don’t be resentful. When you are just swamped and overwhelmed with work, and there’s just way too much to do. Be grateful that that work is there, make hay while the sun shines? And then there will be times when the phone does not ring. Nothing’s going on. It seems like the last hammer in the legal world has been sold. And it’s over. Well, it’s not. But learn to enjoy that downtime and use that to go out and take a bike ride, take a walk, spend some more time with your family, enjoy the fact that the phone isn’t ringing rather than living in mortal fear that it will never ring again.


Steve Fretzin  [24:50]

I’ll add to that because I think your definition of balance is spot on and I feel like I have that and I know a lot of my clients too. And I think when you have have a strong marketing position, and you have business development and you’ve got oars in the water, you’ve got things working all the time. Even if things slow down, eventually it’ll kick back up because you’re not just sitting twiddling your thumbs. There’s always some machine working on the backside. To make sure that thing that the lights down, right, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Beautiful. Well, let’s move on Louis, to the three best of and you were in Hayward, California, which you said is how far from San Francisco? Approximately 20 miles. Oh, is that oh my god. Yeah. Wonderful. Okay.


Louis Goodman  [25:38]

So we’re waiting on the we’re right on the BART line that goes right into San Francisco. I mean, that’s part of the San Francisco Bay area. Okay. Wonderful.


Steve Fretzin  [25:46]

Wonderful. And so I’m coming to visit you. I’m gonna hit San Francisco too, but I’m gonna visit you. And I’m going to say, hey, Louis, take me out. I’ll treat. Where are we going to eat?


Louis Goodman  [25:57]

Oh, well, if you’re going to treat we’re going to go and treat man. Absolutely. We’re getting the double lobsters all around. No, I’m just kidding. It. Well, if you come to Hayward to my office, we’re going to go and get some Mexican food because it’s there’s a place here called Los compadres, which is a family run business that’s been here for a very long time in Hayward. They’re only open now on Fridays, and Saturdays because of COVID. Okay, but they have they have the absolute best chips that you’ve ever had. And you’re really


Steve Fretzin  [26:31]

I’m like an aficionado. I love the chips.


Louis Goodman  [26:35]

We’ll go to Los compadres when you come out.


Steve Fretzin  [26:37]

Alright, do they make the guacamole in front of you too? Or now?


Louis Goodman  [26:40]

They have homemade. They don’t make it tableside. Okay, yeah. And, and it’s, and then I live in Oakland, and there’s a place in Oakland. That’s a very, very good restaurant called wood Tavern on College Avenue. And that’s gotten all kinds of acclaim. And it’s it’s very good and just just down the street from where I live.


Steve Fretzin  [27:03]

Oh, cool. So now I’m full of chips and Mexican food and and all that. What What are we gonna go see what’s what’s the obviously, you know, I know a little bit about San Francisco. But I don’t know too much about Hayward. What is kind of a cool thing to do or see in your in your area?


Louis Goodman  [27:19]

Well, the one of the really great things that we have in the East Bay in Alameda and Contra Costa counties is the East Bay Regional Park system. And one of their parks is called the black diamond mines. And it’s they they mined coal there and they mined Silca there. I’m not even sure what it’s used for. By but the mines have long closed and the ghost towns around it have long fallen down. But there’s a beautiful park there. And they have tours of the mines, which have reopened now since COVID. And you can go go through these mines and the tunnels and see the equipment that they used and it’s it’s just a great place to go. And then if you’re there on a nice day after you come out of that cold mine, that you can go walk around, take a hike and see some beautiful views and some beautiful countryside in the East Bay Regional Park District.


Steve Fretzin  [28:23]

Nice. Yeah, that sounds really really beautiful. And then what are people into in your area? What are what are you doing and others around you during this COVID era and just generally to enjoy the outdoors or or the sights that you have?


Louis Goodman  [28:36]

Well, I am an outdoor guy, and I have three sports that I really enjoy. I ride my bike with some friends quite a bit. As matter of fact, I’m doing a metric century ride this weekend with a friend of mine up in Marin County. I kiteboard. We have some very good windy beaches here in the Bay Area and on San Francisco Bay, which is known for wind so I kiteboard Wow. And I’m also a pretty good skier and snowboarder. I don’t want to overstate my abilities, but I love going up to Tahoe and skiing and snowboarding during the winter. My wife and I have a house up there and we really enjoy going there.


Steve Fretzin  [29:20]

Wonderful, wonderful. Well you have me a kite surfing was a kiteboarding Cadet sounds a lot harder than ski because I ski and I That sounds a lot harder than skiing.


Louis Goodman  [29:30]

It has a tough learning curve. I tell people that all you really need to do is know how to count and you’ll be able to kite board and see what do you mean and I go well, okay, the first time that you put a kite in the air when you’re in the water, you’re gonna get slammed really hard into the water. That’s one and when you’ve reached 1000 That’s so great. Was too near drowning experiences. You’ll have it oh man.


Steve Fretzin  [29:56]

Wow. That’s why I was impressed when you said it because that’s how It’s like something I absolutely would not want to do. But I would enjoy watching you do it. And that’s fine. Well listen, thank you, Louis for being my guest and, and sharing your wisdom and your life with us. And if people want to get in touch with you and refer you or just just you know, get to know you maybe show up on your podcast, how do they get in touch with you?


Louis Goodman  [30:19]

My website is Lewis Goodman. Liu is g o d, ma n.com. And if you go there, you can find me all the digits are there. There. It’s all there. And my end of the podcast, if you’d like to listen to it is love vi lawyer like Love thy neighbor left by lawyer.


Steve Fretzin  [30:38]

Awesome. Yeah. And that should all be in the show notes on your phone or on your on the website. So just thanks again. I really appreciate it. And we’re gonna keep in touch and I think you made an offer to have me on your show. So I’m, I’m going to take you up on that.


Louis Goodman  [30:51]

I’m looking forward to it. And it’s been a real pleasure to talk to you today. Awesome. Thank


Steve Fretzin  [30:55]

you. And hey, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Louis and I hopefully you got a couple of good nuggets. And that’s just always good to hear a success story someone who has you know, built and sustained a practice over the years and can you know, sees the changes and things are evolving all the time. You just have to kind of stay with it and then think of new and creative ways to get your name out there and to be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized a skilled Rainmaker. Hey everybody take care of be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [31:27]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes