In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Manny Griffiths discuss:
- The importance of understanding the client experience.
- How Milestones can help you to bridge the gap and provide a better client experience.
- Setting expectations for both the client and the lawyer.
- Relationships and communication.
- If the end result is good, the client could still be happy. But if they are referring you to others, then you know they had a good experience.
- Technology is not a replacement for personal connections with your clients, but it is an aid to those individual touches.
- The best communicators have the best client experience.
- Communicate with your clients in ways that aren’t just emails. Many people don’t check their email regularly, or the emails get misfiled and lost.
“Technology is just aids. You shouldn’t ever do away with your personal touch and stop giving updates to clients on a regular basis, but you can replace some of your touches with technology. It keeps transparency, when you’re using technology.” — Manny Griffiths
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
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Manny Griffiths [00:00]
Technology just aids Right? Like you shouldn’t ever do away with your personal touch and like stop giving updates to clients on a regular basis. But you can replace some of your touches with technology.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:41]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer, I hope you’re having a lovely and fabulous day. I was just telling Manny that I’m about to take off for a couple days off, and I’m just burning on both burning the candle candles on both ends right now trying to get through my Tuesday, back to back to back to back. So I’m going to try not to lose any energy as we go through this. As you know, Fretzin is all about helping lawyers to be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. We do this in two ways. We do this through a very involved deep program through training, coaching and accountability. That’s really my main deliverables helping lawyers really learn how to be business development assassins through this MBA style program that I put them through. And the other thing I do is peer advisory groups, if you’re interested, you’re already successful business developer, you want to get together with other successful business developers in a confidential environment and work on challenges and work on best practices. I have five of those groups running right now starting a six soon. So let me know if you have any interest in that just reach out to me at firstname.lastname@example.org. And before I introduce Manny, I just want to thank our sponsors legalese marketing and money, Penny great partners for Fretzin, great partners for lawyers, looking to continue to expand your marketing and expand how you communicate, and actually great lead into the client experience, which is going to be our main topic today. And man, he gave me a quote, and it’s a Jeff Bezos quote, not the first one, by the way, we’ve had him quoted. Now I think twice. When we first started selling books four years ago, everybody said, Look, you’re just computer guys and don’t know anything about selling books. And that was true. But we really cared about customers. And now we know a lot about books. So what is that? Why did you submit that quote, Manny is kind of a good lead into our segment today on the client experience.
Manny Griffiths [02:30]
Sure. And by the way, thanks for having me on, Steve. It’s fun to be on this.
Steve Fretzin [02:34]
Welcome to the show, too. Yeah, obviously.
Manny Griffiths [02:36]
Thank you. So I did this quote. And this isn’t probably my all time favorite quote. But I’ve been thinking about it a lot. Because I think there’s kind of a stigma in legal tech, where if you’re not an attorney, founder, that you can’t be trusted, that your product can’t be trusted. And so I am not an attorney. But it’s so I kind of feel like Jeff, in the sense. You know, in this interview, I watched the interview several times, it’s interesting. People were like, Hey, you’re just a book guy. Or you’re just a tech guy. Rather, you’re not you don’t know anything about books. And I feel the same way. It’s like, Hey, you’re not an attorney? Well, I know about tech. And so I’m learning a lot about laws well, and I think I know a lot about the client experience. And honestly, me and my, my co founders and my team are becoming experts on the client experience. And so in turn, we’re learning about law as well, which is, which is really fun and interesting.
Steve Fretzin [03:32]
Yeah. And I’m the same way like, I’m not a lawyer, and I never thought I’d work with lawyers. And once I got pulled into this space, and started working with lawyers, you know, you start to recognize that a lot of the things I did for professional services, and accounting and banking and finance and all these other areas I worked in, translated really well. And yeah, there’s a lot of subtleties and intricacies with the law and dealing with lawyers. But at the end of the day, you spend a couple of years in it. And as long as the content that you’re putting out works for them, or the direction you’re taking them is going to get them results or get them ahead. I don’t think it matters. I don’t really have too many people pushing back on that I’m not a lawyer. So I can’t teach lawyers how to do business development. I think they actually, in some cases, appreciate that. I’m not a lawyer, but that I work with a lot of lawyers. I think that seems to make more sense for them than if I was a lawyer. So interesting.
Manny Griffiths [04:22]
Yeah, it’s interesting. And I think people do like in general, I think it’s the landscape is changing a little bit. But I was at this conference in Miami a couple of months ago. And you know, I heard rumblings of people say, or attorneys asking, So are you guys attorney founders, and you’ll hear it and it’s like, oh, well, no, but But yeah, I agree with you. I think there is some credibility. It’s like, oh, you get the tech side. Oh, you get the client experience side. So we should listen to you on those aspects. I agree.
Steve Fretzin [04:52]
And we’re talking to Manny Griffiths who is the founder of milestones in what what just real quick before we jump into anything more what what what is my milestones, what are you i We met at the at the ABA tech show? And I was thrilled to hear what you do. And I’d like you to share just a moment of what that is with, with my audience.
Manny Griffiths [05:08]
Yeah, absolutely. Milestones is an application. It’s a client portal that automatically updates clients on the status of their case, among other things, but it’s meant so that, you know, the attorneys are super busy. And so this will assist in providing updates and keeping that transparency with the client. So automatically, as lawyers are working in their case management software or their CRM, it will send updates to the clients so that they’re kept, we say, they’re kept in the know, right, so they know what’s going on. And, you know, I
Steve Fretzin [05:43]
went, I went through litigation in my 20s, with a big accident that I was in. And I remember one of the most frustrating parts of it was, things dragged, I mean, the thing took, I think, six years. So over the past six years, it’s like, you know, how much communication was there. I mean, there was maybe a year where I didn’t hear from my attorney at all. And I mentioned we called like, any, anything going on, like, it just, it kind of hurt the relationship a little bit, because I felt like I wasn’t being communicated with.
Manny Griffiths [06:11]
Well, that’s interesting, because that’s, I mean, that’s kind of how we started, I actually was working at file vine, which I’m sure a lot of the listeners are familiar with. And, but my wife was in a car accident, and I had seen kind of the attorney side, but when she got into an accident, and I experienced not knowing what was going on with the case, that’s when that’s what pushed me over the edge and said, go ahead and start this thing, like you’ve been through it, you know, the client will be happier if they have updates.
Steve Fretzin [06:38]
In sometimes the best businesses are started, when you realize there’s a gap in a system or gap in a business or an industry that you you get real passionate about filling in I think that happens to a lot of us, and then if you can actually fulfill it and succeed, and then help people, right. I mean, it’s like, Oh, my God, this, this work this, this is my problem I solved it for I’m solving it for now millions of people that are feeling neglected and and communicated. And it’s coming back to hurt the attorneys to who don’t realize the lack of communication can impact their ability to get referrals, repeat business, etc. Right. Right. Yeah, stuff. And so what’s the let’s talk about the struggle that attorneys have with with the client experience? I don’t, are they thinking about the client experience as much as they should?
Manny Griffiths [07:29]
You know, I think I think that some really are in some really care. And I think they all care. I just think what happens is that attorneys are also business people. And so a lot of them are running a business and being an attorney and managing staff and doing marketing. You know, they’re doing they’re running so many things that it kind of can get, you know, left behind a little bit.
Steve Fretzin [07:52]
Yeah, it’s a lot of hats. They’re wearing too many hats. And the client experience hat is probably going to be the last hat they figure out to put on because they’re so busy managing all these other things and putting out X number of fires every day. All right. So I know that automation, we’re going to talk about automation and the way that you help people down the road. But the downside of not managing the client expectations and the client experience, what are some of the negative ramifications that that happen to attorneys that don’t really focus on that on that client journey? And making sure it’s a good experience?
Manny Griffiths [08:26]
Yeah, you know, the interesting thing is that, and I think the real so I was thinking about this the other day, if the end result is good, the client can still be happy, right? It’s like, but I think the difference is, is after the case, if your client refers you to other people, you know, they had a good client experience, if they might still be happy that they got a settlement or that whatever happened, you know, the result was good. But I think the difference is when they want to refer you and that’s kind of the whole idea behind the NPS, the Net Promoter Score, right is if if people are willing to refer you to their friends, then you did a good job. But that’s I think, you know, I think that’s really the the game changer is if they’re willing to refer you or not.
Steve Fretzin [09:17]
Yeah, and again, there’s a lot of attorneys that are looking for those referrals, looking for the repeat business and in the client experience, in many cases defines how they’re going to feel about you and feeling about you is really a very important element to be memorable. I think there’s a couple a couple pieces there. So so let’s talk about the client experience. What are some? What are some things that lawyers should be doing to plan and execute on having a great client have a great experience? What are some things that you that you recommend?
Manny Griffiths [09:54]
Totally, I think there’s a lot and I’ve heard some interesting new concepts recently to just As I listened to podcasts on the market and stuff, I think that obviously, communication and technology is huge. One that I heard the other day, I was listening to another podcast, a legal podcast, there was a an attorney out of the Northeast that runs a pie shop, it’s it’s a good size shop. And he hired someone, that that his their whole job is to manage the client experience. Like they’re like, We want to make it just, you know, great a white glove treatment for everyone. And I thought that was really interesting. I was like, and I think it’s that important, I really do that it’s worth hiring someone to paying a salary and benefits to, to have a great client experience. The tech, which I just mentioned earlier, what we hear at milestones is sometimes people are scared that they don’t, they don’t want to be in personable. And so they’re like, hesitant to use technology, to help with the client experience. And my response to that is that technology just just aids right, like you shouldn’t ever do away with your personal touch, and like stop giving updates to clients on a regular basis. But you can replace some of your touches with technology. And, yeah, I think that it just, it keeps transparency, when you’re using technology. Like if you know, the, the more the client knows, the less they feel like they need to call you and bug you and see what’s going on. But those are some big things, try to think of trying to think of a few other things that are big with the client experience.
Steve Fretzin [11:35]
Yeah, and I’ll tell you something, too. And I was talking with I teach a class every Tuesday morning, got, you know, anywhere between 10 and 15 attorneys in a classroom, a Zoom Room. And we were talking about that today. And yes, you need to have good communication when you’re in the middle of a matter right in the middle of a litigation and that communication is paramount. And then there’s also the communication that happens after? And how are you staying in touch with your clients? How are you staying in touch with your strategic partners, your referral partners, things like that. And there are automations that do that they’re they’re coming into interview more commonly now than in the past. But even a lowbrow answer to that I was talking about with my group today was to take all your past clients and existing clients put them into three groups A’s, B’s, and C’s, the A’s are the ones that are the biggest matters, they have the best relationship, they have the most opportunity to draw referrals from and have a level of communication with them and touches with them that are that’s the top that’s the top tier. So that can be talking about weekly monthly, emailing them adding value, offering them referrals, whatever it is, then there’s the B group, and then the C group and everybody gets a little less between A and C. But that’s okay, because you’re managing relationships at different levels, they don’t all have to be treated the same. So that’s another lowbrow, if you will example of, you know, just literally writing out lists and then then deciding what the A’s get the B’s getting the C’s get seems to be a pretty good way to make sure that you’re, you know, the client experience and then their experience after the fact that you’re staying in touch with them as a way to continue the relationship.
Manny Griffiths [13:13]
Well, I love that, because and I think it’s I think it’s important, the concept behind that is have a plan, right? I think you I think that lawyers should sit down and should write out the plan of what they want the client to experience. And what you were just talking about is more so with vendors, but with the client too. It’s like, okay, I want my initial meeting, I want them to understand these three things. And I want them to experience this, I want them to experience confidence, I want them to feel comfortable. And then, you know, having a plan the rest of the case as well is I want to have a cadence. And I’ve been really impressed with some lawyers, they say, you know, some are like, we’re going to contact them every 30 days. Or we’re even going to do a five minute zoom call a recurring meeting that we have set up on the calendar. And at the end of that meeting, you schedule the next one a month later. It’s things like that, and and you were just talking about is the biggest thing is communication. Like, if you look at reviews, if you look at bar complaints, it’s all regarding communication. And so really, the best communicators have the best client experience. It’s really as simple as that.
Steve Fretzin [14:22]
And so, so attorneys that are busy that that may be where they fall short is that update they need to send in and that communication. So you mentioned you know, technology and automation or hiring someone to sort of handle that. What other options do lawyers have to keep tight to keep in touch and navigate around that client experience? If let’s say you’re just a solo attorney and you’re spinning a bunch of plates,
Manny Griffiths [14:50]
right. Well, a couple of things. I think first off, sometimes the attorney tries to do too much and they want to talk to The client every time and say you’re a solo, like, it’s okay to have your legal assistant or your paralegal reach out, like that’s a great avenue. And they still feel comforted, like the client loves that. Yeah, as long as the firm is contacting, even if you’re solo and you have a secretary have the secretary reach out. I think that’s, that’s important. Obviously, with like technology, like with our application, we’re trying to educate them as well, that’s a huge emphasis for us is, like, the lay man doesn’t know what is going on with your case. And, and, you know, your initial meeting with the client, they probably explain what’s going to happen. But it’s just like college, if you just go to the lectures, you kind of forget. But if you go to the lectures, you read the book, you have a study group, so you have to educate them on multiple threads in your initial meeting. And then throughout the product that you know, throughout the case, you want to have touch points where you’re teaching them, oh, we’re going into litigation, what litigation means is, it’s a period of time, you know, and so I think using technology to help educate them on the process to and that’s, you know, a big emphasis of milestones is, is teach them and they’ll feel they’ll have a better experience with that.
Jordan Ostroff [16:17]
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Steve Fretzin [17:07]
in something that lawyers may not do a great job on not putting this across everyone, but but if you’re listening to this, and you’re nodding your head, then then I’ll feel better that my statement is accurate. But it is about setting those expectations. And so in particular, in litigation, really, you know, laying out this is what we’re going to do first, this is what’s going to happen second is what’s going to happen. Third, here’s the timeframe for that, here’s how we’re going to handle you know, thing, if things go good, here’s how we’re going to handle the things go bad. And kind of setting those expectations and getting the client to reaffirm that understanding or backing it up in writing could be a big difference between them having a great experience or then being totally in the dark. And then thinking that you’re not really doing your work, even though you may be doing it all behind the scenes.
Manny Griffiths [17:55]
Yeah, I’m curious kind of how you envision that happening, like, coming back? What’s in writing? Like, what are your thoughts on that? Well, given
Steve Fretzin [18:04]
Yeah, so like, verbally, it can be done. And what it does is if you set expectations of timeframes or what what’s going to happen next, and how you’re going to communicate, it then forces you to actually do what you said, right. And if you don’t, then you’re committing to something and then not following through. And that’s a form of, you know, potential malpractice or form of just verbal malpractice where you’re, you know, anytime you make a commitment and don’t follow through, you’re breaking, you’re breaking a chain of of positivity, and in the way that the clients gonna feel about you. I know, anytime someone says they’re going to meet me, and they show up late, or they say, they’re going to meet me and then reschedule last minute, even though I may stay friends with them, or I may want to, you know, keep in a loop with them, it is breaking a form of of a piece of that relationship off, I have a little negative. I’ve got a friend right now who him and his wife have scheduled dinners with us and then cancelled and rescheduled over and over and my wife and I are like their serial re schedulers we’re done like, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna keep going down that rabbit hole we don’t, it’s not that great. Like, I love them. But they’re not that great, where we have to have to have dinners with this where we we set up a datum. So I think people need to be set up in a verbal way. But if you wanted to take it even a step further, it could be written you could say, here’s what’s going to happen in writing. And maybe you sign it they sign it everybody you because it’s not just about what you’re doing as a lawyer, sometimes you need things from them, you need their their input, you need their documents, you need stuff from them, and when you can’t get it from them and things drag out. That can be that can be seen even though it may be their fault. They might blame you when things drag out and it’s because they didn’t get you what they needed. So it could be setting expectations on both sides. Yeah,
Manny Griffiths [19:51]
I think that’s smart. I think that’s why is it like I mean, that’s just that’s sales right like you for Since you know, I did sales at File Manager sales now it’s after every meeting, I send a recap email of what we talked about and the commitments and it’s as simple as an email. I think what you’re saying, bullet points, we talked about these things. This is the proposed deadline. After meetings with clients, that’s huge. That goes such a long way that really helps. And just to comment on something you were talking about, you’re talking about your friends that always reschedule dinners, right? I do think, though, when you have a good client experience, so you have a great initial meeting, you’ve been a great communicator. Yeah. It buys you forgiveness, because you’re going to have a mess up and you’re going to be late to a meeting and you’re going to miss something or do something wrong. But if you if they’ve had a good experience to that point, it buys you forgiveness, that’s one of the best benefits from having a good client experience.
Steve Fretzin [20:57]
Yeah, and I think that’s important. Because, again, you know, what lawyers need to understand is that it’s a relationship business mean, whether a litigator estate planner, whatever, it’s all about relationships, and maintaining those in a positive way. And when you’re setting expectations, really with anyone, and then if you have to break them, okay, maybe give some notice. But it’s, it’s, it’s building those relationships where there’s trust, and people count on you, and you count on them. That’s what makes things work. And if a client feels that they’re not being communicated to expectations weren’t set, I mean, I’ve gotten bills from lawyers on a contract that I thought was going to be three or four grand, and it was seven, eight grand for a contract that I kind of had done before. And I kind of knew what I was getting into. So we didn’t really talk about rates. And then I get that bill, and I go, What, and now it’s like, okay, now I’m like, oh, boy, like, now I have to have this uncomfortable conversation. And, you know, because no expectations were set on the timeframe to get it done, or what the fee structure was going to be on that contract. It just it can really hurt the experience the client experience. Totally. Yeah, no, I agree. So So I think between delegating, hiring, technology, setting expectations, these are all things that we’re talking about to improve the client experience. I’ve also heard it called the client journey. Have you ever heard of that the client journey, so from their initial like website, form, they fill out all the way through a conclusion, and a thank you card being sent out, after a matter of concluded there’s a journey. And so it’s all these pieces that in so any thoughts on how a lawyer can identify the journey is strong, or the journey is weak? And then make those improvements?
Manny Griffiths [22:43]
Yeah. Oh, I hate to just talk about our product. But I’ve thought about this. And I do think it totally relates like,
Steve Fretzin [22:51]
well, let’s, let’s do it, then let’s translate to look, you you are providing a service that lawyers in certain sectors need. And I’m not looking for like a shameless self promotion for the rest of our time. But the fact is, is that you’ve created a technology that improves the client experience. So let’s talk about that for a few minutes. And then we’ll we’ll kind of wrap up with with your game changing book suggestion.
Manny Griffiths [23:13]
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so it’s hard to visualize what’s going to happen, if there’s, like, there’s going to be six or eight or 10 steps in the over the course of a case. And typically, you know, like we said, you lay that out the expectations in your initial meeting, or whatever you do. But people are used to seeing like, the Domino’s Pizza tracker, or when you order a package from Amazon, there’s a timeline, and it says, we’re starting here, and then it’s going to shift and then it’s in St. Louis, and then it’s in Salt Lake, or whatever it is. Yeah. And, and so like, people or people are just visual learners. And so it doesn’t have to be totally dialed and nailing every step, but like to see something come up. And like, you know, there’s light at the end of the tunnel when you can see the steps. And so that’s kind of what our product is doing to as it’s showing here, six steps, we’re in step three, and we’re gonna go through these things. And you know, a lot of you know, our product works great with like, really kind of linear type of cases like personal injury, bankruptcy, immigration, where it’s the same kind of phases every time, but it could just be general like if you know that this case, is going to be go into litigation, and there’s certain things that happen every time you can just lay those out and, and draw even have it in an email or draw it or use our product to show them. These are the six things that happen every time I think that is how huge I think
Steve Fretzin [24:50]
it is. But then how does the system know so the lawyer has to go in and like check a box like we just finished this piece of discovery that’s done and now they check box and then that sends an auto notification to the client.
Manny Griffiths [25:03]
Exactly. Yeah. So it’s checking a box or moving a phase. Yeah, we’re updating something.
Steve Fretzin [25:09]
Yeah, I’ve got Matt x and I moved someone from a lead to oh, we had our first consultation, then it moved from first consultation. Now, I could throw automations in there if I wanted to, to. But mostly it’s it’s it’s done, verbally from meeting to meeting. That’s what I try to do or through emails. But this is I think this is a this is a very, very much needed tool. But you’re in specific sectors. Are you? Are you looking to expand that out once you secure those sectors? Where you’re working with a certain percentage of the of the personal injury attorneys, things like that?
Manny Griffiths [25:43]
Yes, like milestones right now is built on this Domino’s Pizza tracker, right? It’s the phases, but like we’re building out just robust client portal features. So that eventually, you might not even need the Domino’s Pizza tracker. But you’ve got a tab that is just for tasks that the client needs to complete or a document uploader. And I think the goal is like to get away from emails, like people don’t read emails, they have a hard time finding them. That you know, they might check it once every other day. And that’s the primary form of communication between a lawyer and a client is emails. Yeah. And so like, if everything were in an app, it’s way easier to find people have everything there. Your expectations are set there. Everything is in that. And so that’s where we’ll go, then that’s what we’re developing. It’s currently in an app or it’s not currently in an app. We have a web application, a web app, not a phone app, though, right? And we’ll have a phone app, like web applications, great, because you don’t have to download it. And I’m sure a lot of people are like, Oh, I have a case. I don’t want to download an app for my case. So the way it’ll it’ll work on either web app or like iOS, Android.
Steve Fretzin [26:59]
does it integrate with any other platforms or software’s that are out there?
Manny Griffiths [27:03]
Totally. Yeah, we integrate with a lot of case management software. So and I could just,
Steve Fretzin [27:10]
we could rattle off the names, but it’s, it’s generally it’s most of them.
Manny Griffiths [27:14]
Right? Exactly. Okay, well, yo file mine case, peer solidify, you know, all the big ones were integrating with. Awesome, awesome.
Steve Fretzin [27:23]
So really, really interesting technology. And I think again, for some they’re going to be listening to this going Holy mackerel, I didn’t even know that existed. And I better get in touch with Manny at milestones, which I think is terrific. Let’s wrap this up with Game Changing books, which is a segment I’ve been doing now a number of times. And I think people are always curious what books changed people’s lives, what books gave them that aha moment. And so I know that yours is one that’s been around for quite a while, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. So why did you submit that book? And what is that? What did what did that book either do for you? Or how did it set you up for success?
Manny Griffiths [28:00]
Yeah. Have you had anyone do this one before? Carry? Oh,
Steve Fretzin [28:03]
Manny Griffiths [28:04]
No. Okay. It has think I love this book, My all time favorite book, I think it’s just people relations is is really what the book is talking about. So it talks about things like, and it just changed the way that I deal with people. It talks about things like remembering people’s names, like the sweetest sound you hear is your name. And so, you know, it kind of drills this into you that when you meet someone remember their name, and when you use it, people love to hear it. And it’s little tips and tricks like this, but it’s also things like nobody wins an argument. Nobody wins in an argument. And so it’s this principle that, like, if you argue with someone, they just don’t like you like, that’s what happens.
Steve Fretzin [28:48]
Like being right isn’t the most important thing. I know that some people feel that even lawyers maybe fall into this category. And sorry, guys, but you know, you have to be right, you have to win the argument. That’s kind of what you’re trained to do. Yet. That’s not necessarily a way to make friends in a way to keep relationships strong.
Manny Griffiths [29:05]
Right? I have a buddy that says, you know, if I call him when something’s going on in my marriage or something like that, he always says this. Would you rather be right or would you rather be married?
Steve Fretzin [29:16]
Yeah, well, that’s the happy wife happy life. There’s all these other things and everything but but yeah, I think at the end of the day, you know, it’s a great book and I read it years and years ago, but a lot of common sense stuff but things that that people may not realize or common sense or may not be following in any kind of practical way. So check that book out. If you haven’t already. In man, if people want to get in touch with you learn more about milestones or talk to you directly about getting that that that set up for themselves. How do they reach you?
Manny Griffiths [29:46]
That’s why it’s just our website. Get milestones.com We just got a little you putting your contact info in it sent the right to me, so
Steve Fretzin [29:54]
okay, awesome, man. Well, thanks for being on the show and sharing your wisdom on the client experience. And, you know, kudos I’m coming up with a great solution for a problem that I think most buyers of legal services, whether it’s like myself or people that are injured, are concerned about that they that the communication isn’t where at the level that it should be or needs to be. I’ve experienced it and I know other people have and this is a solution that kind of like directly impacts that issue.
Manny Griffiths [30:20]
So kudos, man. Hey, thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me on.
Steve Fretzin [30:24]
Yeah, my pleasure. And hey, everybody, listen, thank you for spending some time with Manny and I hopefully got a couple of good takeaways, as usual. And listen, it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Think about that client experience and think about how you can make little incremental changes to improve it. Because that at the end of the day is your reputation and how you’re going to be known and how people feel about you, in most cases is what gets those referrals cooking. So listen, everybody be well take care be safe. We’ll talk again soon.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes