Marc Hankin: Building Relationships Are More than the Benjamins

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Marc Hankin discuss:

  • Relationships first, middle, and last.
  • Listen first and tune your hearing to hear what others are saying is the problem.
  • The little things to pull together the networking connection.
  • Remembering social rules as we move back to in person meetings.

Key Takeaways:

  • Regular communication with those friends you want to maintain connections with is extremely important. Stay top of mind, think of others, and put the relationship first.
  • You have two ears and one mouth, use them in proportion.
  • When making a quality referral, think about how it will put more money in the pocket of those you are helping. Give to give.
  • Do the preparation necessary before meetings to better serve those you are meeting with. If you do the research first, your meetings will go far better.

“I learned long ago, the Six Ps: Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. It is the same thing with a meeting, with the troika, with getting together a client pitch, you have to prepare in advance, you have to come in knowing what you need to know, and then ask the questions.” —  Marc Hankin

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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Marc Hankin  [00:00]

As a lawyer I learned long ago the six PS. Proper Preparation Prevents piss poor performance. The same thing was with a meeting the Troika getting together with a client pitch, you have to prepare in advance, you have to come in knowing what you need to know. And then ask the questions. And by the way, don’t ask questions that are easily answered from somebody’s website or someone’s LinkedIn profile. Ask you know, figure those things out beforehand.


Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, your host, and I hope you’re having a terrific day today. I have eight meetings today. And one of them is this podcast, which I’m actually most excited about out of all of my meetings today by quite a margin. And it’s, it’s not because I’m blowing smoke, I’ve got a guest that’s going to really surprise and shock and thrill you who’s got tremendous experience of growing business and doing it through networking. Before I introduce Mark, I do want to take a second to just thank our sponsors, legalese marketing, and money penny for being great partners. And if you check out their their ads in a few minutes during the middle of the show, you’re not going to know when they come up. That’s a surprise. It’s a good surprise. So enjoy that. And the quote that Mark and I agreed on, which is going to be a good lead into introducing him into the show. Personal Relationships are always the key to good business. You can buy networking, you can’t buy friendships, which is Lindsay Fox. So Mark, first of all, welcome to the show. I’m I’ve been dying to get you on for a while now. And I’m just thrilled that you’re here.


Marc Hankin  [01:55]

Thanks, Steve. It’s great to be here. It was wonderful to see you in person recently in Chicago.


Steve Fretzin  [01:59]

Yeah, that was awesome. That was awesome. Mark Hanken is the founder of Hengqin. Patent Law. He’s also one of the super super superstars of pro visors, and a lot of people nationally 7500 members, Is that about right? Yeah, a few more, right, growing every day. And Mark, you know, that quote, I like it for a reason. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on it. But you know, personal relationships are always the key to good business, you can buy networking, you can’t buy friendships, tell me what you think of that.


Marc Hankin  [02:28]

We’ll see that’s sort of a longer explanation of know, like, trust prefer, which is providers motto, right? I mean, we say no. And what does it mean to know? I mean, you know, you and I were together at a cool club in Chicago. And, and we know each other, right? Do we like each other I mean, sure that we like lots of people, but we actually know each other and, and it was great to you know, it’s great to be in person with people, you actually see people on LinkedIn, and you want to comment, you want to support them, because you really liked them. And it’s not a matter of building up you it’s matter building up them. And then after you get to know someone like them, you know, then you’re trusted, right? And really, this is what it is. We do business with people we like we do business with friends, anybody can go in network, and you know, like tip generator, a lead generator, and there’s a bunch of money to badmouth the tip. There’s a bunch of them that it’s all about generating value. You and I, we know it’s all about generating friendships, relationships, long, ongoing things that you don’t have to worry about, who am I going to do business with, because top of mind are the people that you’re friends with the people you like, the people that you already trust? Yeah, it’s really a no brainer.


Steve Fretzin  [03:37]

It’s what it’s all about. And we’re gonna get into some heavy weeds in a few minutes on that. But if I want to read this, literally, you can buy networking, there are people that spend 1000s and 1000s of dollars to attend conferences, to join networking groups to be a part of boards, they have to put in money for sponsorships, all this stuff. And they’re trying to buy their way to success with something that can’t be bought, which is you need to develop tight, deep relationships. That is, you know, mutually beneficial or you know, just just where there’s where there’s a given a take and an exchange and an a true appreciation for the other skills and that you know, we’re going to take care of the people you refer, and you can’t buy that that’s not viable.


Marc Hankin  [04:21]

There’s two things I’m tired of Steve entire business cards, they’re meaningless.


Steve Fretzin  [04:27]

I haven’t seen I haven’t seen one in


Marc Hankin  [04:29]

years. Yeah, it’s ridiculous. And the other thing is somebody emailing me or calling me up or saying to me in a, you know, in a chat on a zoom, hey, let’s get together I think we should talk. And then they spend 15 or 20 minutes telling you all the reasons why your clients should hire them. Honestly, they’re never gonna get a referral from me not once, not effort. Because if you call me up or you make schedule a time on my schedule, to tell me how great you are, not only do I not believe you, but I don’t even lie issue anymore? And yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [05:01]

I mean, the the person that says that says they’re the greatest, you know, I think we know we know a number of people in different I won’t get into politics but you know, that say that they’re the greatest thing in the world. And, you know, they’re not, it’s like almost a direct opposite.


Marc Hankin  [05:15]

And, you know, there’s some new group leaders that are misguiding Lee saying, you know, Troy acres should be 70% business and 30%, social, you know, the best speakers I’ve ever had, we never once mentioned what each other does for a living. The best meetings I have is where you don’t tell me what you can do for my clients. I will tell you what I can do for my clients. But afterwards, we look for ways to help one another, we look for ways to connect with one another, to make connections for one another. Because we’re friends, yeah, you can find that working cannot buy friendship, friends.


Steve Fretzin  [05:46]

It’s so I think, to simplify even more, it’s, you know, relationships first, yes, relationships first business second, relationships first and last and Okay, first, middle, and last,


Marc Hankin  [05:57]

you know, at the end of the day, I am all about I fly around the country, not to get business. I fly around the country to see friends. I could get business from my own. Yeah, I am gonna go see a friend. I’m gonna go hang out. I want to break bread with you. I want to share a bottle of wine with you. I want to go out late at night, hang out, wake up early in the morning, go for a bagel in person. I don’t need to see you on Zoom. And I don’t need to talk to you on the phone. I want to hang out. And that’s what friends do. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [06:25]

So so it’s clear, you’ve got just a smidgen of passion for this networking stuff, right, just a smidgen out of my shell, I’d be so successful that said we didn’t get to come out of that shell. So how did because it takes some people, you know, education to learn to network effectively, it takes some people, some people are more natural at it. How did you sort of come come about it that that building relationships was important to developing business developing your, you know, lifestyle that you have?


Marc Hankin  [06:54]

Maybe it’s cliche, but I learned it from my dad. My dad and I are not eight? Well, he’s dead now. But we have no, we have very little genetic like this. I take after my mom and her dad. I don’t take much after my own dad genetically. Okay. But he was a college president 47 years. He took me to my very first rotary meeting when I was seven or eight. When I was six years old. He taught me to put the badge on the right side, because when he shaved it faces


Steve Fretzin  [07:19]

now wow, that’s heavy. Yeah, that’s like, wow, that’s going way back on the networking scene. Ya


Marc Hankin  [07:25]

know, I learned a lot. One day I was sitting in my dad’s office and his college had a deficit that legislators that are some political nonsense. And I watched him work the phones, I was doing homework, and I was in junior high. He raised $6 million in an afternoon, Beck’s back in the mid 70s, when that was actually real money. Wow. And he just called people email, and got them to donate money to the college and got some money moved around. And I watched him do that. And that’s because he knew who to call. You know, he used to send out these little note cards from the desk of Joseph and Hank and say, I thought you’d be interested in sign Joe. And we’d send you an article. It was a one man clipping service. My brother sister and I, whenever we came home for vacation, or see Mom and Dad, we always had a stack of articles for us. Were some things you’d mail them to us, I would watch him and his secretaries had two secretaries, because he had so much volume, watch them mail out stuff to people all around the country. And anytime my dad called anybody they knew him, they all knew they all took his call. And they all want because he thought of them. And he showed them how much he thought of them regularly communicate. Yeah, I learned by osmosis, osmosis that that’s something you need to do.


Steve Fretzin  [08:34]

What a great what a great mentor to have that I think my father did. retired lawyer did say to me, if you can’t make a sale, make a friend. I remember him saying that. But here’s the thing when he practiced law in the 70s, and 80s, and 90s. I don’t think he did networking in a traditional sense of joining a group. I don’t think he did any type of marketing at all. He was just the smartest guy in the room. And he plopped himself down in a in a on a floor with a bunch of other lawyers and next thing you know, he’s flooded with business. And in things aren’t that simple anymore? I think right? Things have become more complicated, more crowded.


Marc Hankin  [09:12]

There’s way more lawyers went to law firms law firms are better at marketing. You know, we weren’t able to advertise for tonight. Yeah. And so we and we still can’t solicit although Gosh, people still do. I saw I saw in my junk folder today, someone soliciting because my emails that email for one of our trademark clients and I got a straight on solicitation from a lawyer trying to steal a client from me basically. But but you know, these days now we can we can market veteran firms have gotten better at it. You and I are active on LinkedIn and we see firms all the time posting things and people weighing in on that. So yeah, the competition is much different these days.


Steve Fretzin  [09:47]

Yeah, so there’s there’s more competition, you know, there’s there’s, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff happening in the world in the marketplace and everything but, but ultimately, you know, there’s a number of ways to build a law practice and networking is is a pretty The important one those relationships as opposed to online marketing in lead generation, and that it’s not for everybody. So why do you think lawyers struggle with networking business development in general? Why do you think that’s that’s such a rub for most attorneys?


Marc Hankin  [10:16]

I joined advisors beginning in 2007. It was the worst year of my life. I had three cases careening towards trial, I had a miserable situation with one of my clients. I was pulling one of my many all nighters, and I was just miserable. I was reading the provider’s newsletter, and I read about Jerry Bain, the happy lawyer coach. And I, I sent them an email and I think maybe even left him a voicemail in the middle of night. And at 6am, my phone rang, he didn’t expect me to be in the office. But I was like, I was pulling an all nighter, he was told me the same, you know what I towers. At two days later, I started working with them and work with them on and off till he died November 2020. He mentored many, many people to member providers more than a quarter of a century. But Jerry taught me that you can hire lawyers to do the work. Business Development is something that most lawyers are terrible at. They’re not good at it. They don’t learn it in law school, they don’t know how to do it, they didn’t have a dad like mine, maybe. And they, they don’t. And that was my highest and best use. And so I took Terry’s advice, I brought in great staff, I changed over my office, my car, my wardrobe. And from 2008 to 2013, I had six best years ever in a row, hit a little bit of doldrums in the mid teens when everybody did when the market was down or anything. But then change came back strong. And I learned a lot from Jerry. And I spend a lot of time marketing, I spend a lot of time going out talking to people. My marketing is not writing articles, it’s not giving speeches, although I do both of those things. It’s not, you know, going in handing out business cards, but it’s making friends


Steve Fretzin  [11:43]

just making friends. Yeah, and so I think I think for many attorneys that they don’t want to put the time in to write and speak and they don’t want to travel, you know, to go meet with clients or to go, you know, run around the universe, especially these days, I think flying is a lot less fun than it used to be. I used to fly in the 90s. I loved it, it was like a blast. And now it’s like just drudgery. But networking seems to be one that most attorneys can understand. And at least at least that that it’s an important thing to do to go out and actually meet people and develop relationships. What are some of the kind of the things that you teach when you travel around to different providers, groups and different groups that you teach them that really resonates with with lawyers, to get them results to get them like over the maybe the mental hurdles?


Marc Hankin  [12:31]

First lesson, Steve, you have two ears, one mouth, use them in that proportion. People always want to talk at you. They want to tell you how great they are. They want to tell you what they do. Let me just tell you how. No, don’t tell me listen to what I’m saying. Listen to the pain points you’re hearing from your clients. And you know, it’s not just a matter of listening, but you have to tune your hearing. You may have heard me say this an improviser and I say this as often as I can, because people are limited. They’re busy, they’re on their phone, they’re thinking about their day, they don’t tune their hearing, to hear what other people are telling them is the problem. Maybe they’ll even empathize. But they’re not thinking about how they can solve it by making a referral. And if you can think about the problem someone’s telling you and whom you know, in your network that might be able to be great at solving that problem. By tuning your hearing when you hear someone give you a pain point, and all of a sudden you come up with a resolution a person, not you, a person who could solve that for them. You’ve made the world a better place you’ve helped your colleague or friend, dare I say, and whoever you’re referring it to owes you one. And it’s just human nature that eventually they’re going to look for ways to help you.


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Steve Fretzin  [14:44]

and I’ll just add something to that that part of what allows a lawyer to have that I’m not talking about the focus of listening and listening you know, fully, that’s a skill that needs to be honed by everyone. Okay, and we’re not doing enough of it. We’ve got you know, brains like sleeves were all over the place, I think right. But I think it comes down to we need to develop a network of professionals that allow us to give and think strategically about how we’re going to move the needle for someone else. And if we don’t have that network, it makes it very challenging. So if I, if I’m talking to you, and I find out that your challenge is that you don’t have a CPA that you can rely on and screws you over every year by telling you to add tax $100,000 and pay up, right, which, by the way, has happened to people and meet me nuts for so much. But it’s happened that I would say, You know what, I have a really good CPA. She’s in your neighborhood, actually. And I think you might really, you know, like her and I, you know, Would you be open if I made that introduction, your eyes light up, because I’m making an introduction that’s helping solve a problem for you. But if I don’t have that network to draw from it makes it more challenging to be the go to guy for people that you’re networking with.


Marc Hankin  [15:59]

You know, what I think makes it challenging for people. It’s all about the Benjamins. The money all about the Benjamins want money. And they want something to put money in their pocket. And they want something to benefit them. And that is 100%. The long. Yeah, what you need to think about what everyone needs to think about when they’re making a quality referral. How does this put money in their pocket? How does this help them save money? How does this help them get a better result? Forget about yourself, take yourself out of the equation. You know, we say it’s better to give than to receive we say lead with giving BNI trademark that givers gain, we talk about giving all the time lead with giving we’ve all read Bob Berg the Go Giver, yep. Steve, people don’t really understand what that means. They think that means give to get it does not mean give to get it means give to give and keep giving. And I’ll tell you what, that’s how I live my life. And it’s work really well. Yeah, because I get all the time. But I don’t get because I want I get because I give. And I’m not thinking about putting money in my own pocket. I’m thinking about meeting other people that are off.


Steve Fretzin  [17:15]

Yeah. I mean, can I just say I’m gonna say I’m gonna say yes. And then I’m gonna say, however, because this is where you and I met, I have a rough man, I have a ROB. And here it is. And it’s okay to not there’s 100 different ways to do things. And it’s important for people to hear multiple ways. First of all, I’m not gonna argue with with give to give, and I’m not gonna argue with that building karma. And building goodwill and building relationships is without question, the best thing you can do when you’re networking Period, end of story. Yes. Okay. He In addition, one thing that I found was that when you give, and someone asked to reciprocate, you still need to be in a position to coach them through an introduction that might make sense for you. And the reason that that’s nice, that’s nice to have, is because I try to identify the people who are true givers, as well as receivers. And there’s also a lot of, and I don’t want to call them frauds, but there’s a lot of people that either don’t have the capacity to give, don’t have the intelligence to give don’t have the time management skills to give. And what they do is they they promise, and then they never and they commit, but then they don’t follow through. So we think we have a relationship where we think we have something going with someone that could be a great advocate for for everybody. And we we end up disappointed. And so one thing that I try to harp on a little bit is, let’s also while we’re giving, let’s also not keep score, but let’s also qualify someone’s ability to follow through someone’s ability to be a networker like we are.


Marc Hankin  [18:50]

You interviewed Ben Douglas? I have not. So he’s a lawyer in the Bay Area. Great guy. And after every Troika, he says, Here’s my description that I’d like you to email out for me, please send me yours. And he’s got a whole book of it. He he keeps track of everybody’s little descriptors, because we’re all better at explaining what we do than anybody else is. And if we succinctly give it to someone, then they can sell us Yeah, but it’s not a matter that we deliver it, it’s a matter that they deliver it. So we provide them with the tools to know our sweet spot, understand our sweet spot and be able to communicate it effectively, maybe with words that we’ve given them.


Steve Fretzin  [19:31]

Yeah, it’s probably one of the biggest gaps in the lawyer game is not being a good coach, whether it’s in writing in an email, whether it’s a discussion of who you want to meet, how you want to be introduced, and to get the person to not only commit but but coordinate a next step to see that it happens because everybody’s busy. We’ve got we’re juggling 100 things and this could slip through the cracks in we can’t allow that to happen because it’s an opportunity that was off For no needs to be facilitated through, so we have to take it upon ourselves. So I’ll give you a lot of one liner mark that I use. I give you a referral, you give me a referral, whatever the case might be. But I might say to you, this is great, Mark, I think we could probably get this done for each other in about a week. Hope that’s okay. If I don’t hear from you in the next week, how do you want me to follow up with you to check in to see that this is all going in the right direction. And you say, email me and so now I say, okay, the likelihood that that email is going to go unreturned in general is much lower, because we had a little bit of a chat prior to wrapping things up. So it’s little things that I think lawyers missed the boat on that sometimes pull it all together to make sure that it happens the right way.


Marc Hankin  [20:42]

You’re holding people accountable.


Steve Fretzin  [20:43]

I am. I am. Yeah, I mean, I just I don’t like to be I don’t like to disappoint. I don’t like to be disappointed. And if somebody’s gonna say something that’s like the whole Seinfeld, you know, reservation, are you saying, oh, guy? Yeah, of course. Okay. Okay. I’ve got, I’m just gonna put aside my clients just gave me this. This is all the Seinfeld serenity now and no soup for you. And this past


Marc Hankin  [21:08]

year on domain, it’s, I’m


Steve Fretzin  [21:10]

sure it’s on there. I’m still waiting to put it up. But there’s a whole one about the car rental where they, you know, they say yes, we have your reservation here, Mr. Seinfeld, but we don’t have any cars he goes, so you hold the rest of it. You didn’t keep the reservation, it’s kind of the most important part. And I think in networking, we have to commit and we have to execute. And if you miss the second part, you’re really hurting the relationship that you work that you’re working hard to solidify.


Marc Hankin  [21:36]

Now, that’s, that’s very poignant. It’s true. I was in New York two weeks ago, and I went over to hertz, and they said they had 37 reservations and only 30 cars. And my wife turned to me and said, What are they gonna do with the other seven people? I said, I would have prepaid events right now, the prepaid my aim is


Steve Fretzin  [21:54]

to get it. It’s yeah, it’s rough out there. It’s rough out.


Marc Hankin  [21:59]

rough out there.


Steve Fretzin  [21:59]

What? So let me ask you just I think we’re on a good track. We’ve got a few more minutes, maybe we can get I can squeeze a couple more, a couple more tips out of you. What are some other things like what we’re getting back to face to face, right? We’re getting back in person meetings. I know with providers, my next two meetings, home meetings are in person. So now we’re back to that, what are some things that you do and had done prior to the pandemic, that made you effective in a group in a group setting where you would mingle around and walk around and shake hands and say, Hello.


Marc Hankin  [22:28]

So first of all, asking questions, you know, I think Dale Carnegie did that effectively. And, you know, ask people about themselves learn, you know, come inquisitively to the conversation. Come curious, ask them what what’s going on. But, you know, as we get quote, unquote, back to in person, Steve, you got to remember a bunch of things. First of all, you got to put on pants and shoes. I am worried.


Steve Fretzin  [22:55]

I did, I did meet someone at a restaurant I had sweatpants on because I had forgotten to put jeans on. So right. You


Marc Hankin  [23:02]

have to remember to have gas in your car and make sure you know the direction to figure out where to park and then walking into the parking garage. You know, like all the things that we haven’t done for two years. And it’s funny. We’ve done it for most of our lives. But we have forgotten a lot of those. Yeah, yeah. Shaking hands. You know, I’m a hugger. I love to how am I gonna shake your hand? If you give me a fist bump? I will give you a fist bump back my coach Jerry Bayless talked about earlier, he had cancer for a half years. So he was fist bumping years before COVID. Yeah, okay, fine. No problem with that. But if you’ll have me I’ll have you want a high five. We could do that too. No problem. But in person, we’re gonna have to remember who pays. You know, we should maybe split everything make it make makes it easy for everybody and there’s no pressure and there’s no uncomfortableness. What do you do about taking turns to speak on Zoom? It’s really easy to mute. you unmute. you unmute. You know, my box lights up. You can spotlight me in real life, you have to remember to give people a chance to get a word in edgewise. with you right now.


Steve Fretzin  [24:03]

Oh, no, I mean, this is this look, you’re the star of the show. I’m just I’m just here on the on the on the salad, you’re the entree.


Marc Hankin  [24:13]

The point is that there’s a lot of things that are different in person that we have forgotten. But at the end of the day, and just to stay with our theme of building friendships and building relationships that turn into business. When you get together with people. Don’t be late on Zoom. You know? If I’m having nine o’clock 10 o’clock, 11 o’clock, it’s easy. I turn off one zoom, I go off turn the others do you have an end meeting for all because we’re done. I’m just I’m waiting.


Steve Fretzin  [24:40]

I’m waiting just about 20 minutes for every meeting because I’m I’m like 1015 minutes early for every in person meeting I go to and then the person is five minutes late. And I’m just sitting there and I’m steaming. If I get it, but I get it. You know, it doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t Yeah, it doesn’t make it right. But you know, it’s it’s disrespectful. To say, my time is important and yours is, and I’m going to make you wait for me out for cell phones because at least I can send emails and get worked on. But, but I think showing up on time, you’re right asking people about themselves, I would also add the importance of doing your research prior to getting together. So I was at the coaches and consultants, Greg, and by the way I was I was I was blown away, it was pretty darn good. And there’s three or four people that I’m going to meet with, and there’s not a chance that I’m going to meet with them on because they’re all over the country. I’m going to be with them on Zoom. I’m going to spend a good 1015 minutes prior to each of those meetings, Facebook, LinkedIn website, you name it, what can I ask them about themselves that I did research on? And I have this great Michael Jordan Jersey near me, but everybody brings it up. I’m into the 1000s Now mark, of people that asked me about the Jordan jersey, instead of saying, Hey, I read your book, I read an article I heard your podcast, something that’s or your son is catching fish I see on Facebook, they that connects me with them and makes me feel good. Right versus observational thing. Oh, they what kind of plant is that? What kind of plant? Is that? Kind of traffic Do you have? What


Marc Hankin  [26:10]

kind of traffic? Come on, you know, we can


Steve Fretzin  [26:13]

do better than that. As a


Marc Hankin  [26:15]

lawyer I learned long ago, the six PS. Proper Preparation Prevents piss poor performance. The same thing with a with a meeting the Troika, getting together with a client pitch, you have to prepare in advance, you have to come in knowing what you need to know. And then ask the questions. And by the way, don’t ask questions that are easily answered from somebody’s website or someone’s LinkedIn profile. Ask, you know, figure those things out beforehand. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [26:40]

So let’s take the last couple minutes that we have. And by the way, didn’t this didn’t this just fly by? Always, like we just we just got on? And we’re already like coming up on our on our 30. So what is it all come down to relationships? Yes. Follow through, you know, research and in, you know, asking questions, what’s kind of a final like, finally overarching tip or thought about networking and business development that you could share before we wrap up, because you’ve been doing this so long. And in so successfully, I’d love to hear just kind of a final thought on it.


Marc Hankin  [27:13]

Going back to what we’ve been saying, think about the other folks think about how you can make their lives better without worrying about whether it helps you. We’ll help you. And you know, Steve, it’s interesting, right? I mean, as we think about others, and we think about making their lives better, that goes in so many different ways, personal business, of course, but personal professional, you know, and looking out for them thinking about, you know, how do I help your kid get an internship? can I connect them with someone who might be able to hire though? How do I help your wife get some information about an upcoming trip that they’re planning and, and connect them with my wife to talk about that? How do we, you know, go and worry about, you know, what do you know about this judge? Or what do you know about the suppose, like, all the information you have in your head, that you can share all the ways you can make someone else’s life better, easier, more meaningful, and provide them with a shortcut things that you’ve learned things that you can smooth the way for them? You know, what all of that makes their life better, doesn’t put money in your pocket today. But over the course of time, it will put a lot of money in your pocket. Yeah, it’ll make you somebody people want to have in the room.


Steve Fretzin  [28:25]

And by the way, there’s nothing wrong with walking around feeling good. When you do right. For others, you feel good. It’s just it’s just the reality of it. And when you’re a taker, and your take take taken from everybody, guess what, you’re not going to feel so good. Right? And by the way, people are going to be mumbling about you in the corners at the next event. So I’ve got a bunch of stories about that we won’t get into Oh, not gonna get invited to the cool meetings. No, nobody wants, nobody wants you there. Nobody wants the salesman at the at the meeting. I mean, they just don’t at all so. So Mark, you know, I asked you about a favorite book. And I’ve got a segment here at the end called Game Changing books. And we’re not going to talk about fiction books, because I enjoy them too, by the way, but I think the game changing book we’re going to talk about today is this little book called The attorneys networking handbook. And I’m not sure who the author is. It lets me know who it is shameless self promotion, Mark, where does that come in? Where does that fall in on networking? Is that a part of it?


Marc Hankin  [29:21]

I have always wanted to. I’ve always wanted to teach a class, what they don’t teach you in law school, and I’m not sure one night or one semester, but what they don’t teach you in law school is how to network and that’s why people need to know people and use the because Steve Fretzin You are amazing at working with lawyers and helping them figure out how they can market themselves effectively. Lawyers don’t learn that in law school, so everyone needs to know that


Steve Fretzin  [29:41]

everyone Wow, that’s, that’s so true. And again, I’m in this in this space for a reason. It’s it’s my passion to help attorneys whether they work with me or not, you know, my job is to help you know, educate, inform and make sure that they are living a better life because they understand the importance of relationships. Networking, building a book having their own clients. That’s what this show is all about Mark and you just fit right into it. So, thanks so much, man. If people want to reach out to you and network or find out more about you improvisers, what’s the what’s the best way for them to reach you?


Marc Hankin  [30:14]

They can probably find me on Google, they can find me on LinkedIn, they can go ahead and mark at Hank and patent Pretty easy to find and improvisers just ask anybody ask your group leader, they all know where I live.


Steve Fretzin  [30:25]

Yeah, and that’s not that shy, not shy at all. Well, listen, I appreciate you so much. I appreciate you visiting Chicago and seeing us and in all the work you do to make people better really, you know, you’re you’re the game changer man for for providers and for the people who know you. So,


Marc Hankin  [30:42]

thank you. Thanks so much. It was great to talk with you today.


Steve Fretzin  [30:45]

Yeah, beautiful. And hey, everybody, listen. Wow, I told you right at the beginning this was no BS that we were going to have a good time we were going to get some good takeaways. I’ve got a master networker on the horn with me. And Mark just cranked it out like, like a master that he is. And it’s all about being that lawyer. So how do you be that lawyer? You got to get out there and you got to help others you got to be a match. You got it. You got to do what’s right for others, and we’ll come back in spades. You know, and that’s what this is all about. You know whether whether you’re a lawyer and you’re in another profession, you know, we need to leave this place better than when we got here. Listen, everybody, instead of me rambling on. Be well be safe. We’ll talk again soon. Talk to you.


Narrator  [31:29]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes