Marsha Redmon: Thought Leadership and Harnessing the Virtual World

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Marsha Redmon discuss:

  • Using presence and thought leadership to build your practice.
  • The worst mistakes people are making when communicating digitally.
  • Diminishing attention spans and strengthening your messaging.
  • The breadth and depth of thought leadership.

Key Takeaways:

  • If you are on camera, you have authority as you are speaking if you speak with presence and authority.
  • Look at the camera when you are on a Zoom meeting. It makes the other party feel like you are speaking directly to them and connecting with them.
  • Make your point, then get to the details.
  • You are not leaving money on the table if you niche down. It makes you specific enough that people understand what it is that you do.

“People want useful, targeted, practical information from people that are qualified to give it to them. That’s what thought leadership is.” —  Marsha Redmon

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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lawyers, people, clients, thought, niche, leadership, business, book, zoom, law firms, virtual, marcia, person, attorneys, steve, talk, legalese, starting, camera, helping


Marsha Redmon, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff


Marsha Redmon  [00:00]

People want useful, targeted, practical information from people that are qualified to give it to them. That’s what thought leadership is. And so you need to keep getting out there with that same useful information.


Narrator  [00:16]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:38]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a fabulous day. You know, that airing of this show was a little off when we air and when it actually broadcast. But I’ve got a crazy day. Today I’m going to the legal tech show the ABA legal tech show to go and meet all my legal tech friends and kind of walk around and see, see everybody, and finally getting some decent weather here in Chicago. So everything is just groovy. And as you’re listening to this, you know, you’re probably wondering, What am I going to get out of today’s show? How is how is this going to benefit me in my law practice? Well, I’m not going to disappoint you. That would be you know, my greatest fear would be that someone’s disappointed with the show. So we’re going to kick some tail today. And I’m going to introduce my guest, Marcia in a minute. First, I wanted to take a second to introduce and just mentioned my sponsors legalese marketing and money, Penny, both you do a great job for me, helping me with my branding, helping me get the word out about Fretzin Inc. and also just supporting me, you know, whether it’s on my website with the live chat or helping me get my social media out. So check out legalese marketing and money, Penny, if you would. And then I also just want to mention, if you hadn’t heard this before, my book, legal business development isn’t rocket science is available on Kindle and a softback. Book, and it is a number one international best seller. So when that happened, you know, in early, early March and or late February, and super excited about that. Thank you, Marcia, for the thumbs up. It’s you know, look, it’s it’s a book that will help you figure some things out, if you’re never going to hire me, that’s okay, I’m going to help you one way or the other, and the book is a great way to start. So pick up a copy on Amazon and support my son’s 529. That’s where that does go. And I’m trying to try to build that up in case he decides to go to an out of state school anyway, moving along, I do want to take a moment to share the quote that was provided by my guest, Marsha Redman, who I’m going to introduce in a second. And that quote is a Steven Pressfield. Quote, our job in this life is not to shape ourselves into some ideal we imagined we ought to be, but to find out who we already are, and become it. Welcome to the show, Marcia, and tell me a little bit about that, quote.


Marsha Redmon  [02:48]

Thank you so much, Steve, I’m really excited to be here, that quotes near and dear to me, because I am a serial re inventor, I have worked in a number of fields. And each time I left it was to create something that felt more like me. Finally, as you know, I started out doing radio and television and the Florida Keys, no less. And then eventually, after covering a woman, US attorney who was amazing, I decided to go to law school, I did that. The challenge for me was that when I finished law school at the top of my class and wanted to become a US Attorney, there was hiring freeze for about five years. So I ended up at a large law firm, a wonderful large law firm. But I didn’t get to stand up and talk. So after about five years, I said, You know what, enough of this, I’m going to leave. And I went back to TV news, I was able to leverage that lawyer credential get into a really big market, I had no business being in, I aged out of that at about 39. And I started the business I have now which is teaching lawyers how to have presidents, and how to use thought leadership to build their practice. And so I do that through larger law firms through workshops. But now I’m starting on this podcast journey. And you’re my second podcast this week. In fact, I’m starting on this podcast journey because I want to work with individual lawyers that are keen to take advantage of the see change we see in the practice of law, which for me, my definition is we’ve moved from in person practice of law to virtual and hybrid. And it’s bad news for most lawyers, but it’s amazing news for the few that can step up and take advantage of it.


Steve Fretzin  [04:34]

Yeah, and Marcia, your business is Marcia Redman communications. And again, thanks for being on the show. And I know we’re gonna get into the weeds on some things, but you know, I talked to lawyers, obviously, every day and early in the pandemic. You know, many lawyers were like, Well, I’m just gonna sort of shut down my business development and shut down my networking because nobody really wants to talk by zoom or on the phone. If I can’t get together for lunches like I used to, then then why I bother. And I think most have figured out that that is not the case that that that was a joke or that that was not a great way to approach it. But what what were some of the things in some of the mistakes that you were seeing early on in the pandemic, and leading up to today that you still see?


Marsha Redmon  [05:15]

Sure. So virtually people think, you know, I don’t have to master this, it doesn’t matter. This is all temporary. And so they don’t speak with energy, like you and I right, are right now they don’t make eye contact, they don’t take it seriously. The thing they’re missing is that virtual presenting gives you a real benefit. If you’re on camera, doesn’t matter if your audience is on camera, but you get to borrow the the authority that comes with looking like a talking head, you know, with my background in TV news, this was very obvious to me from early on. So there are lots of benefits. Few lawyers do it well.


Steve Fretzin  [05:56]

Yeah, I, again, I’m on Zoom 100% of the time, at this point, I you know, occasionally I’ll go out to lunch with a friend or something like that, but I’m dealing with with attorneys all over the country, there’s no way it’s I’m gonna get on a plane and travel again, unless, you know, there’s something involved with with, you know, the city of Rome or something like that with my wife, then I see a reason to get on a plane, but generally speaking, so. But I’m talking with people in their basements, I’m talking with lawyers that are looking down, I’m talking with people that are that are just they’re not really leveraging or leaning into the Zoom world that we now are that I don’t think is going away. And so, you know, what are some of the things that you’re seeing that are like the top like worst mistakes that are happening, like, you know, again, people that are just clueless about how to use Zoom effectively, to present to meet to network, etc?


Marsha Redmon  [06:51]

Yes, so top three things. Number one, you have to make eye contact. And that means you have to look right at the camera, almost everyone looks down here at the Video Eye. So instead of looking at the video of the person, you have to look away from the person’s video and look at the camera. Hands down, it’s hard. But with practice, and a willingness to improve, you get there. And again, here’s the benefit. If if the people on the other end feel like you’re looking right at them, it feels like a one on one conversation. So even when you’re doing a thought leadership, you know, you’re saying, hey, here are five important things right now you need to know about this area of law that I help you with, it feels like a one on one conversation. So it builds relationship, it builds trust. But if you’re looking down here, you’re not making eye contact, it feels very dismissive, or at the very least disconnected. So number one is eye contact. Number two is you need to have decent enough lighting and a decent enough camera, that the people on the other end can read your expression. Again, it’s about building trust, building authority, deepening relationships. Plus, it just looks unprofessional, if you’re kind of sitting in the dark in your basement, wondering like can solve that problem. And then the third thing is energy. Right? Just because you’re on Zoom and you’re tired, doesn’t mean you need to speak in a monotone and come across as though you really don’t care. And of course, the fourth problem, which doesn’t have anything to do with virtual is lawyers drag people into the weeds way too much. And way too deeply. So you’ve got to keep it high level, keep it interesting, you know, only give them the information they need.


Steve Fretzin  [08:31]

I mean, I think I’m, I’m getting to the point faster, I do spend time building relationship, but not like in office where I would maybe sit with someone for 1015 minutes and talk about, you know, something, you know, that I identified about them and their travels or their business or something. I mean, it’s a couple minutes, and then we can get down to it. So a meeting that was an hour, hour and a half is now 30 minutes. And we’re really efficient in how we do it. But I can tell my like I can feel myself when I’m getting into a conversation with someone that’s dragging out. It’s not like I’m like I’m starting to get anxious or getting leg shakes, or you know, my anger, you know, just anxiousness starts to hit me. So I’ll be like, alright, we got to wrap this up. So that’s just, you know, me, me being a very kind of like, you know, get to the point type of guy, I think to some degree.


Marsha Redmon  [09:22]

Absolutely. And the thing and the thing we’re seeing, and I’m sure everyone, all of your listeners and you and I have noticed it, people are a lot less willing to jump in the car, and to go to something in person because we calculate how much time it’s actually going to take and we decide it’s not worth it. Another reason why being good, having presents virtually makes all the difference. You know, clients don’t want pitches, necessarily, that are in person. Now they may if you’re in the same town, but if it means you’re getting on a plane or something complicated or around travel, they may not want it so if nothing else will convince lawyers, they need to be good virtually. It’s that easy. Write it when when your virtual skills stand between you and a lot of dollars, maybe, maybe you’ll be willing.


Steve Fretzin  [10:07]

And I think the key thing here is, is there, there are still people out there that feel that zoom in, in virtual is not hitting the mark, like a two hour lunch would hit. And to some degree, I get that I get that that communal face to face, you know, pressing flesh, sharing a meal breaking bread, there’s something to that, I feel like we’re now we’re getting back to that because of the, you know, the bands being lifted here. Like, for example, in Illinois, you know, march 1, you know, bands have been lifted, you can, you know, my wife is a teacher, she’s not wearing a mask in school anymore. You know, like it or not, it’s, it’s, you know, they figured out that it’s safe, it’s safer than it was. So I but at the same point, there’s also an opportunity cost there, right that two hour lunch, can you still get the same level of relationship, and collaboration and actually get the business with, for example, a general counsel or a CEO, through zoom, that that would happen in a lunch?


Marsha Redmon  [11:04]

I think you give them the option, it’s never nothing is ever 100% I think you you get together in person, if they’re willing, and if it’s important to you, but you also keep having those touches that are personal, or at least personalized, where you’re saying, you know, you’re my five most important clients? Can we spend 2030 minutes on Zoom? I’m going to update you with what’s going on right now that I think you need to know. Yeah. And that’s valuable. And they’ll say yes to that, because they don’t have to get in the car.


Steve Fretzin  [11:34]

Right. Right. So when we think about presenting virtually with confidence, and and with skill with actually thinking about it and putting skill into it, what are what are some of the things that you’re that you’re working on with the attorneys that you that you coach, and that you that you provide when you’re presenting?


Marsha Redmon  [11:54]

Yes, so the things we talked about those initial elements, which really are just table stakes, eye contact energy level, taking care of your virtual persona, your lighting, the camera framing, we don’t want to see the top of your head or up your nose, that’s another element. But once we’ve taken care of those basic things, really, it comes down to the content, which is, you know, while while I’ve taught presentation skills and thought leadership communication skills for 23 years, that’s what they hire me, for the law firms. What I’m really giving that’s most valuable is helping lawyers with what to say, and how to say it. And that’s, that’s a constant. But now with virtual and soon with hybrid communication, your messaging is even more important. People have less attention span, it’s hard to believe, but it’s true. Yeah, like so like fleas. Totally. I use that I always say the NS that’s probably what I’ve met Matt. Yeah. And so so your messaging, not only the structure, you know, I use templates and checklists like like a queen. And really, you know, make your point first, then give the detail, always start with, I’m going to talk about such and such today, here’s why it matters to you. You know, that’s how you get and keep the attention of an audience in person. But it’s even more important that you have that rigor around your structure you what you say how much detail you give, and then getting engaged. So virtual is a wonderful way to get engagement from your audience, ask them questions, have them ask questions, go back and forth. But you know, we’ve all had that experience where it’s crickets, you say any questions, and they all just stare at you? Or better? Or worse, really? You’re looking at dark screens, because they haven’t turned their cameras on. Yeah. And so it takes more effort, but, but it’s absolutely worth it.


Steve Fretzin  [13:46]

Yeah, and I think something else that I that I do, obviously, you know, doing a podcast, I have my banner stand behind me, I’ve got my Jordan, Jersey, I’ve got my plant that sort of like, frames me out. But something I’ve been doing lately, and I don’t do it on the podcast, because I record this in for video purposes. But I’ve been lately and I can’t believe I just figured this out like in the last couple of months but hide self view. Like I’m so I hate looking at myself. I’m not interested in myself, I know what I look like it’s fine. Okay, wherever I’m presentable, maybe. But I don’t have to look at myself anymore. So I hide myself view I focus on the person, I also try to move the person up as high as possible near the camera. So even if I do float down and look at the person, I’m still kind of looking in the vicinity versus looking down, you know, at the middle of the screen, which is not where we want our eyes to be.


Marsha Redmon  [14:36]

Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s key and to for lawyers, one of the things that I teach, whether it’s a hearing, or an important pitch or a presentation is to take your content and squeeze it up right under and on Zoom specifically. And I think also on WebEx you can actually share just a portion of your screen. So you can take back your screen real estate. You can share your slides but then you can have notes that are pushed up right under the webcam or bullets, you know, you got you got an important pitch or something, have bullets in a text document, squeeze it. So it’s narrow and tall, push it up under the webcam. So it’s really like a little mini teleprompter, in essence, because you can advance a text document using your mouse. Right. And


Steve Fretzin  [15:21]

I’m a big proponent of taking notes and being prepared for meetings in such a way where you don’t forget things that are being told to you so somebody’s giving me their pain points on their issues with business development and their challenges. I want to write that down. And and so either having a, you know, a pad or I’ve got my remarkable to which I’m a huge, you know, technology nerd around that, you know, going paperless. But then, you know, having that or having those notes, were up the questions prepared, and the notes prepared. So you can you can rattle them off and not get stumped or spend time like looking around for things.


Marsha Redmon  [15:57]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it’s always great to say, you know, if you see me looking down, I’m taking notes on what you’re saying. Because that that matters. And I know from all the work I’ve done at large law firms, one of the number one things partners say they want me to teach the Associates is show up with a pen and a pad, take notes look engaged in it. It’s true for all of us. Yeah,


Jordan Ostroff  [16:19]

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Steve Fretzin  [17:10]

So were there are there some specific like I know that you and I had discussed sort of a roadmap of how you work with people? Or what’s the roadmap to success in in as it relates to communication, virtual communication? Can you talk to sort of what are the different stages that you’re that you’re talking about in that roadmap?


Marsha Redmon  [17:29]

Sure. And you and I talked about before I put to paper, finally a thought leadership roadmap for lawyers, because we had talked about it in our conversation, just getting on one piece of paper, the steps that, that I normally teach at a big law. And really, it comes down to three big buckets. The first one, of course, is figuring out who you’re communicating with. So whether this is a presentation, or if it is thought leadership, you know, you want to get some useful content in front of your clients and prospective clients. In a quick way, that’s effective, right? If any of you used to be at larger law firms, you know that in those places it can take, you know, a month or two to get approval to get a client alert out. That’s not what I’m talking about. So the first piece is, what’s the hot topic right now? What are my goals? Like, what how do I want this to perform? And how can I narrow it? Right? We know niches are crucial for lawyers, they make some of us uncomfortable, but how can I narrow that topic and make it very personalized and specific? The next piece is figuring out what thought leadership method will you use? Meaning Will you do it? So whether it’s a webinar, or maybe just a quick casual update for five clients, or something more formal, or maybe something in writing? And really thinking about both pieces? What do those specific kinds of clients? Like? Do they like a 20 minute update over zoom? Do they prefer something in writing, and then that needs to overlap with something that you yourself will actually do? Because you know how we are, we say we’re going to do it, and then it never happens. The next piece is, you know, in the communication itself, making sure that you are telling them why it matters to them first, you know, they don’t want to hear I’m going to walk through the 87 new subsections of you know, 1105 code section 47. No, it’s this change to the law could mean an extra expense to your company on the order of x dollars and the next six months. Right, that’s how you get their attention. You gotta have gotta have the headline. Absolutely. Right. And, and, you know, we talked about this to my background, having been a TV reporter for a number of years, both before and after I was a lawyer. That’s where this advice comes from. Right? If it works on TV, where people have a clicker in their hand, it will work in every other kind of communication. And then the final piece there is interactivity, and we talked about virtual we’ve talked about hybrid, certainly in person. You want your audience to ask questions. You may not want to answer the questions during your thought leadership, you may want to save it, and answer questions you wrote for yourself, so that you can follow up with those real client questions later on by phone. I mean, that’s really my best tip for, you know, how do you actually get business out of thought leadership? Call him on the phone and say, we couldn’t get to your question, but can we talk about it now? Right.


Steve Fretzin  [20:23]

Okay. So, you know, at the end of the day, there’s a lot of attorneys out there that are experts in a particular area there, they’ve niche down, you know, they’ve they’ve figured out that, that that’s an important part of being recognized and known. And then moving into that, that thought leadership even further, what are what are some of the things that they need to consider to start building that thought leadership as it relates to whether it’s content whether it virtually or in person or presenting what what are some of the things that you’re that you’re recommending to clients to drive their brand and their thought their their brand is a thought leader?


Marsha Redmon  [21:00]

Up? Yes. So it really is about about that, the combination of that first step of really having that niche and really finding out what those people need? So I think of it as you know, what are the questions those clients or types of clients are asking you right now? So what are they actually asking you? It’s not that, as you say, in your book, it’s not rocket science. That’s the first piece. The second piece is something I’ve come up with, which is called should ask questions. What questions should they be asking you right now, but they’re not, that’s also fertile field. Because the thing is, you know, people want useful, targeted, practical information from people that are qualified to give it to them. That’s what thought leadership is. And so you need to keep getting out there with that same useful information. And the notion of having it be a series, you know, here’s what’s hot right now with such and such problem, and you keep dribbling that out, and then you repurpose it. And so thought leadership is bread, as well as distribution. And, again, you’re not don’t You don’t want to jump around to different topics, once you pick a topic, own it. But then you want to repurpose it, of course, have staff do that, not us have the staff do it. So they take, they take a 20 minute video update, they take a transcription of it, they turn it into four checklists of the four chunks of what you delivered. And then they send that out, they post it on Instagram, they do all of those social media things that I personally have no idea how to do. Someone else does that. That because it’s it’s the reach, as well as the repetition. You know, to me, the definition of thought leadership is you have a body of work.


Steve Fretzin  [22:44]

But it sounds like you have to really continue to whittle something down. So you Okay, so you’ve whittled down, I’m a litigator, to maybe a niche within litigation, I’m a Labor and Employment litigator, okay. So you’ve done that you’re, you’re in, you’re in a sector of a sector, then from there, maybe there’s a particular industry, in labor and employment that you focus on, and you’re getting well known for that, or you want to become well known for that. And then maybe there’s a particular law, or environmental or, or, you know, COVID, or whatever it is that’s coming up, that’s topical, and you want to become someone that writes on that. So you’re so you’re breaking it down and whittling it down so far that that gives you something to talk about as an expert that maybe isn’t being talked about by everybody? And is that is that and then how do you then getting that out? Right? Through articles through presentations through podcasting through whatever? And is that is that how things really start to get better defined?


Marsha Redmon  [23:47]

Yes, absolutely. And the thing is to really think about, you know, you look at you, you know, What work have I done, what industries have I worked in, what maybe what roles, maybe it’s about CFOs, maybe there’s something you can tell CFOs in a number of industries, that that resonates. So you slice it and dice it in that way, another frame that can help you do this is to think about who has collected these people in one place already, so that I could show up and get in front of them. And so that’s beautiful. So you think industry publications, maybe it’s regional? Perhaps it’s it’s some other way specific. And then you get in front, you know, you speak at their annual meeting, you write for their publication, and you do video updates. So it’s a way of distributing that content plus you make a lot of connections, and you and then you get information back coming at you because you’re in front of those people or or the you know, the trade association or industry pub or whatever. And then you find out what those that narrow group of people actually wants. Yeah, and I have to say the caveat of course, lawyers as lawyers, we always fear but if I narrow too much, I’m leaving money on the table. Whoa, no, you’re not. That’s not how niches work. So using myself as an example, I have always worked with lawyers at large law firms, the law firms hire me. But you know what, when accountants find that out, they call me and say, Hey, you do that for law firms. We’re like a law firm, come and do it for us, or in house counsel come to me and say, you know, what? You’ve been teaching the lawyers how to communicate with we in House lawyers better? Can you teach us in House lawyers how to communicate better with our corporate clients? Because they think we always say no, right? Which is exactly what I was teaching the law firm lawyers, right. It’s that cycle. So niching makes you specific enough that people get what you do. And then they think, oh, that’s like me, I want you.


Steve Fretzin  [25:49]

And the other thing is, you know, the fear of of niching down. Keep in mind, when you do that, you also then have the ability to refer out more stuff that normally you try to take in and do halfway, or do you know pretty well, but now, maybe not as well, as you do your special speciality. That gives you the ability to pass out more work, which then can come back to you and be in be reciprocated. So it all sort of works out if you commit to it. And it doesn’t have to be a commitment that you make overnight hit tomorrow, I’m starting out. And I’m never going to talk take these kinds of cases, again, you can build out your thought leadership and build out on a particular topic, a particular industry title, whatever. And over a year or two, you could just you could make that move to that niche, and then slowly start to whittle away and get rid of stuff that isn’t is central to your to your focus.


Marsha Redmon  [26:45]

Absolutely, absolutely. But no to you know, no niches forever. No niches forever, you can say this hot right now, I have the background and expertise to pass the smell test that I that I do know something about this particular area, or these certain kinds of clients. I’m going to do this right now. And then six months from now, nine months from now you reevaluate. It’s like me, you know, I was doing in person workshops at large law firms for for two decades, and the pandemic hit. And I first thought, Oh, my goodness, I’ve lost. I mean, I’ve literally lost all the workshops for a year that had been scheduled. And then I woke up and thought, Oh, my goodness, people are on camera on Zoom. They don’t know how to do that. So you pivot, I pivoted, we all pivoted, I got lucky, this was a lifetime pivot for me. But yeah, but the point for me, Steve, is that it’s not just a lifetime pivot. For me, it’s a lifetime pivot for every lawyer. Think about your biggest competitors. Think about the niche you’re in or you want to be in? Are those lawyers doing a lot of great virtual thought leadership? Or did they just sort of sit back and think, ah, you know what, I’m just gonna wait till this is over. Nobody’s doing anything right now. This is the moment, right? You can take that market share or take that niche from those people. If you can step out there and, you know, work through a few little details about cameras and lighting, and and just start getting useful information in front of a narrow group of people. Yeah, it’s not rocket science.


Steve Fretzin  [28:18]

It’s not rocket science. We go back to that, by the way, international best selling author, Steve Fretzin. No, legal business development isn’t rocket science. Pick up a copy today on Amazon. Just shameless plug right in the middle of it. There you go. All right. Well, we know we’re onto something. So let’s let’s wrap it up with with a couple of just like summarizing what we spoke about. So we talked about virtual how to really frame yourself looking at the camera, making sure that you’re, you know, you’re interacting with someone in an appropriate way to keep their and capture their attention and keep them talking and engaged. Okay. And then we transitioned into thought leadership and kind of broke that down further. Any final words on that? Before we talk about a new segment I’m bringing up which is my guess I don’t have a real good name for it, by the way, but like my guests favorite business books, I’ll come up with a flashy name for that segment later. But any final kind of thoughts on on the conversation we’ve had sort of summarizing it together?


Marsha Redmon  [29:16]

Sure. The thing I’d like to leave everyone with is that this is not that hard. We tend to overthink it. So I urge you as you sit there and think you know what, I’m too busy. I don’t want to do anything virtual or thought leadership really doesn’t apply to me. Just think about what questions are your clients asking you? And how can you give them a little bite of information in a way that they’ll sign up for they’ll show up for or you can just send it to them just to start a conversation. That’s really all we’re talking about? Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [29:48]

Fantastic. So I know the quote that you gave me at the beginning of the show was a Steven Pressfield. Is that also your favorite author that you want to just share? Like what what is the name of his book and what you got out of it that was so, so incredible.


Marsha Redmon  [30:04]

He is a favorite author. And the book is The The Art of War, the War of Art, The War of Art,


Steve Fretzin  [30:12]

the art of war, because the art of war, I think, is a different book, it’s a different book, and I get into some copyright issues there,


Marsha Redmon  [30:18]

ya know, it’s The War of Art. It’s The War of Art. And the idea really is, and I think it hits us at the heart of all of us, because, you know, lawyers tend to be quite creative. And and we are doing what we do, because we have strong feelings and beliefs about it. And the notion behind that book is that, you know, we are creating our lives. And for many of us, we chose a path because it seemed like the right path, others told told us that it was, but the core concept there is, we have gifts, we have abilities, and we need to discover them within ourselves. So how can I be that lawyer? Ah, look at that, what I did, now, can I be that lawyer that really serves my clients, but also in a way that I enjoy in a way that I get to use my favorite skills. And for me, I turn to that book, because I’m, again, reinventing myself, I’m out here doing podcasts, because I want to find out what individual lawyers can benefit from, after the 20 years of only working with law firms. And because, again, you can see I’m pretty passionate about this idea that this is a great moment for all of us to step out and take advantage of all the big changes that are happening. And so I, I see it really as a legacy project, I want to get helpful information in front of a broader, a broader group of people. And it really ties back to that book, which is, you know, keep discovering who you are keep, for me, my my frame is, I want to use my favorite skill as much as possible, and in a way that helps people. Because I think the one thing I’m good at, is the thing I’m here to share. And I love it, as you can tell,


Steve Fretzin  [32:00]

yeah, of course. And yeah, you’re very passionate about it, I think, you know, most people have what would be called, like, you know, maybe a superpower or what, what their, what their, you know, their, their, their, their best skill is, and we need to lean into those and also identify what maybe your you don’t enjoy or what isn’t a top skill, and then try to stay away from that. If you’re looking to live the best life and help others then then, you know, lean into what you what you really do. If somebody wants to get in touch with you, Marsha to talk about working with you directly or for their firm or whatever, what’s the best way for them to reach you?


Marsha Redmon  [32:33]

Yes, the best next step, if you found value today, if you’d like the content, I’m talking about the things that I teach is to go to thought leadership map, ma So I have as we talked about a thought leadership map. It’s a visual with seven steps. So if you go there, thought leadership, you’ll get the map. And then also just seven steps of detail around how to do each of those steps.


Steve Fretzin  [33:01]

Yeah, and we’ll put that up on the in the show notes as well. So Marsha, just thanks so much for being on the show and being a great guest and, you know, so much wisdom that you shared out and hopefully again, the folks listening really got some good ideas and takeaways and maybe some realizations that there’s always room for improvement. You know, none of us are perfect, and there’s always things we can continue to, to improve and grow on and grow with. So just thanks so much for spending some time with me.


Marsha Redmon  [33:27]

Thank you, Steve. This was really fun.


Steve Fretzin  [33:29]

Cool, cool. Me too. I feel the same way. And everybody listen up, hey, it’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. You know, continue to listen to the show, continue to share the show with your friends and other lawyers that you think would get benefit from it. Don’t hesitate to like it, give it a thumbs up five star, whatever you feel you’re comfortable with. And let’s keep getting this show to grow. Because I feel like if we can do one thing, well, it’s to help lawyers, you know, continue to build those books of business continue to be thought leaders. You only get one shot at this thing called life. So in your career, make it make it count. I think that’s what Marsha and I are kind of pitching today, right? Absolutely. So all right, everybody, take care be safe be well, we’ll talk to you again soon.


Narrator  [34:16]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes