Matt Spiegel: Legal Technology for Better Customer Experiences and a Better Law Firm

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Matt Spiegel discuss:

  • Why you should have good customer service as a lawyer and for your law firm.
  • Continuing client relationships beyond the case.
  • How Lawmatics can help you to maintain client relationships and better run your law firm.
  • Processes, procedures, and automation.

Key Takeaways:

  • Your law firm is a service business. You need to have good customer service and a good customer experience.
  • Most legal business comes from referrals – if you don’t nurture client relationships and networking partners, you are leaving money on the table.
  • Most lawyers are using a CRM (client relationship management) in some fashion, even if you don’t call it that – even your phone is, technically, a CRM. Having a proper CRM to manage all aspects of your client relationship from meeting until the end is key.
  • As a lawyer, you are likely looking at revenue/billing-driven KPIs. However, there is so much more data you can extract from your numbers and information you’re tracking that can help you build a stronger firm.

“Your book of business that you’re sitting on is a goldmine. And like any goldmine, it needs to be mined. It won’t come to the surface without any effort.” —  Matt Spiegel

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About Matt Spiegel: Matt Spiegel is a serial entrepreneur and lawyer who enjoys building products and solving problems using management and marketing automation software for attorneys. He founded MyCase and Lawmatics, the latter of which he also serves as CEO. He worked as a criminal defense attorney but has spent years focused on innovating the legal-tech space to help attorneys scale their business.

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everyone, listen up real quick. Before we begin the show, I’d like to present my Be That Lawyer challenge. If you’ve ever wondered how much more you could be making as an attorney, I challenge you to meet with me for 30 minutes to discuss your law firm. If I’m unable to identify ways to bring in more business for you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for our time together.

[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: I’m just that confident. Go to Fretzin. com to accept this challenge and hope to meet you soon.

[00:00:29] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:52] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I hope you are having a lovely and wonderful day today. I am at the tail end of a very long Monday, and Matt has the benefit of catching me to see if I can keep my energy up, or am I going to go into a threatened, uh, behavioral slump? We’re going to find that out in just a moment.

[00:01:09] Steve Fretzin: How you doing, Matt? I’m

[00:01:11] Matt Spiegel: doing great. I’m doing great.

[00:01:13] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, good to see you again. It’s been, it’s been a little while, but, uh, super excited that you’re here. For those of you who are hearing, be that lawyer for the first time, we’re on twice a week, uh, helping you to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker.

[00:01:26] Steve Fretzin: My job is, well, there’s the business of like what I do for lawyers, and there’s my job on this show. The job on the show is to just try to continue to bring you great guests that have technology, ideas, they’ve got, um, just a whole bunch of different tactical, actionable ways for you to grow and develop your law practice and live the best possible life.

[00:01:46] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, today’s going to be a real inspiring one and someone who’s really made it in the legal tech space. And so I want to introduce you to Matt in a moment, but Matt, you gave me a quote and it’s not a famous quote. It’s famous in that you say it. So we’ll call that famous. It’s not like from some philosopher or anything, but, um, Essentially what you said to me in your quote is you can be the best lawyer in the world, but if you don’t have good customer service, there’s a very good chance your business is going to fail.

[00:02:12] Steve Fretzin: And so I think, you know, talk, talk to me about, first of all, welcome to the show. Second, talk to me about that quote and why you find yourself saying that over and over again. Yeah,

[00:02:21] Matt Spiegel: so I, I don’t know exactly how I started saying that, but I definitely do because I feel if I ever do a podcast, if I ever do an interview, if I’ve ever had a talk, I’m always asked, I think before the end of it.

[00:02:32] Matt Spiegel: Yeah. Hey, if you could give one parting wisdom, what, what would be your one wisdom? And look, my, my first comment there is, I don’t know that anybody should be taking any wisdom from me, but if you do choose to, if you choose to do so, I think it’s a good one. And really it’s, it’s to me, it’s designed to just get people to think a little differently.

[00:02:50] Matt Spiegel: It’s a bit hyperbolic. There are some really good lawyers in the world who don’t have good customer service and they’re very, very successful. Right. And there are a lot of lawyers in the world who just hang their hat on the outcome. And that’s very, very much. Okay. The, this idea, I want lawyers to think about their law firm as more than just a law firm.

[00:03:09] Matt Spiegel: I want them to think about it as a business. And it is a service business, just like any other service industry. And that means you need to have good customer service. You need to have a good bedside manner. You need to provide a good customer experience to your client. Because nowadays, I think it was different 20 years ago.

[00:03:29] Matt Spiegel: But now you go on Google and you search for a lawyer and you find the lawyer that you’re looking for. And if you, and if that first person doesn’t give you a good experience, you call the next person on Google, right? And, and so you really have to excel if you’re going to be competitive in certain, you know, certain practice

[00:03:48] Steve Fretzin: areas.

[00:03:49] Steve Fretzin: And you guys are meeting Matt for the first time. It’s Matt Spiegel. He’s the CEO of Lawmatics. And I’m not only a fan because you’re one of the sponsors for the show, but also because I’ve been using Lawmatics for, I think, over three years now, and I have so many automations that save me time and, and make me money and make my business hum and provide that great service.

[00:04:09] Steve Fretzin: I think if you talk to any of my clients, you know, they would tell you they, they get exceptional service for me and from the way that I run things. I’m But Matt, you know, give us some background because you, you’ve got a very deep background in

[00:04:20] Matt Spiegel: legal tech. I do. So I, I, you know, I’m, I’m still a lawyer. I, I carry my, I keep my California bar card active.

[00:04:28] Matt Spiegel: That may be more so for my, for my dad’s sake. I

[00:04:31] Steve Fretzin: a fallback plan?

[00:04:33] Matt Spiegel: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I did. I, you know, I practiced for a while. I was a criminal defense lawyer for five years. I practiced at a big law firm for four years, and then I started my own law firm. And it was when I started my own law firm. I won’t bore everybody with the details of how, but effectively I started my case, right?

[00:04:48] Matt Spiegel: So my case was a product that was born from my experience at a big law firm. And then My experience at my own law firm, just, you know, which purely was me. I had, I had one salesperson and I had a paralegal, I think actually having that salesperson ended up being key to what got me to where I’m at now.

[00:05:06] Matt Spiegel: But yeah, I founded my case that was back in like 2010. Uh, I built that company. I sold it in 2012. I rem I kept building it until about mid 2015 and then I exited completely. So it really cut my teeth, got a lot of experience. You know, I think in a lot of ways help. Helped sort of alongside Jack at Clio and even Larry at Rocket Matter.

[00:05:31] Matt Spiegel: We really helped pioneer this new cloud industry, right? Like, you know, bringing solo and small law firms into modern, modern tech world. And, and it was an amazing time. I enjoyed it, spent a couple of years doing some non legal tech related endeavors. And then decided at the end of 2017 that I really wanted to come back into legal.

[00:05:53] Matt Spiegel: This concept of lead management, marketing automation, just. Providing these tools that other industries have had forever to lawyers was really, I think, about to, it was about to reach a tipping point. So in 2014, in my case, we had done a study and we had found out that lawyers were starting to think about things like lead management and marketing, but it wasn’t top of mind just yet.

[00:06:21] Matt Spiegel: But fast forward to 2017, I think, you know, what, what started as just a kernel of a, of an idea was really becoming. I’m a title wave of a concept to law firms and and so we, we decided to build Lawmatics to be sort of the, you know, if lawyers know Salesforce or if they know HubSpot to be sort of that platform for lawyers because nothing was really built for us when it came to like BI tools and, and, and automation platforms and we need specific tools as lawyers.

[00:06:53] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I think there’s a disconnect between what lawyers have to have around practice management software and what they really need as it relates to automating the marketing, automating the, you know, the way that they’re doing intake, the way that they’re just handling their, the day to day, you know, marketing of the business.

[00:07:12] Steve Fretzin: And I think they’re very different things, but they need to be done together.

[00:07:16] Matt Spiegel: Yeah, that’s right. I mean, and they are, you know, when you put them together, you can lead the entire journey. Right. But each phase of that journey is very different. The intake phase, the case phase, and then the, after the case is over, their former client phase.

[00:07:31] Matt Spiegel: And, you know, all the platforms that have traditionally been built are really focused on that phase too. You know, what, what do I need to do to serve my client? Keyword being client, they’ve hired me, right? Well, primarily that means you need to, you need to track your time and bill them, right? That, that’s what you automatically think.

[00:07:48] Matt Spiegel: Maybe you also think some document management and. You know, calendaring and, and docketing, but generally speaking, you think of, of only a couple of things, but then when you factor in everything that you really need to facilitate the intake process, the sales process, I’m, I’m not afraid to call it sales.

[00:08:04] Steve Fretzin: Oh, my God, wait a second. You’re going to hurt everybody’s, you know, ears and all the dandelions and butterflies out

[00:08:10] Matt Spiegel: there. So, yeah, no, I feel like the, the sooner we can, you know, the first step is admitting we have a problem. Right. So we got to call it sales. That’s what it is. And. And really the back end of it all, right, which is so neglected that you got to think about it.

[00:08:25] Matt Spiegel: 75 percent of all business to law firms come from referrals, right? So that means that once the case is over, that relationship is critically important to the success of your business. And if you’re doing nothing to nurture, facilitate, enhance that relationship with your client, once the case is over, you are leaving a ton.

[00:08:46] Matt Spiegel: Of money on the table, and just doing yourself

[00:08:49] Steve Fretzin: a disservice. Yeah, I mean, I would take it even further than that. The, the, the largest amount of money that I’m able to find for lawyers in business development, is that they’re not leveraging low hanging fruit. They’re not leveraging their, the lawyers that have referred them, they’re not leveraging their clients, past and existing.

[00:09:05] Steve Fretzin: They’re not doing, that’s where all the business is. The fact that they can go out and network and meet strangers, you know, that’s another way, but it’s a lot harder and more time consuming than leveraging the people that already know you and like you and trust you in the sense of clients. So, but it’s to your point, so neglected and they don’t have a proper way of staying in touch and staying in contact and it really

[00:09:26] Matt Spiegel: hurts them.

[00:09:27] Matt Spiegel: You’re right. And you said that you said a phrase that I like to use all the time, which is low hanging fruit. You know, your book of business that you’re sitting on is a gold mine. But like any gold mine, it needs to be mine. It’s not just going to come up to the, you know, to the surface without any effort.

[00:09:44] Matt Spiegel: And, you know, like one of the things that we always tell people, like in law, Matt, we tell them in lawmatics, but really you don’t have, I mean, you know, you want to do it no matter what lawmatics makes it dead easy. But like, you know, you’re sitting on, let’s say you’ve got 2000 clients that you’ve helped over the last 10 years, whatever, right?

[00:09:59] Matt Spiegel: And you want to send them an email on their birthday every year, right? This is like marketing 101. This is blocking and tackling, but I guarantee you that these lawyers, you know, the lawyers that are listening to us right now, probably more than 90 percent of them don’t do anything to their, to their former clients on their birthday.

[00:10:17] Matt Spiegel: And the reason why is a good one. They’re like, well, how do I do that? I can’t do that. What am I going to do? Call them all or like, and right. I’ve got, I’ve got 5, 000 clients I’ve helped. I’m not going to send them all in a letter on their birthday. Well, you can do that with technology, right? You can make it very easy on yourself.

[00:10:31] Matt Spiegel: You just have to, you just have to think about it, you have to want to do it.

[00:10:35] Steve Fretzin: And birthdays is, is just one of, of many things. I mean, I know the automation that I’m using right now is, so I’ve got, let’s say 350 podcast episodes done. And that means I’ve probably met, you’re a two timer, you’ve been on this, this is your second time.

[00:10:49] Steve Fretzin: There’s most of the people that come on the show are from, well, I become friends and friendly and I enjoy, you know, these folks. And, and so how am I, you know, using technology to stay in touch? I’m not going to remember 300 people that I should reach out to them to say, Hey, what’s going on? Or should we get back together and, you know, clients and, and, and strategic partners and developing new relationships.

[00:11:12] Steve Fretzin: It’s just so hard to keep it all together, and I think that’s where the automations really are necessary.

[00:11:19] Matt Spiegel: They are. Um, I mean, you know, it’s, the automations allow you to just do, well, I won’t even say the work of a lot of people, because the fact of the matter is, even if you had a lot of people, it’s still almost impossible to do the kind of outreach and the consistent communication and engagement that you would need to do.

[00:11:37] Matt Spiegel: If, if he, you know, if you want to be successful without, I mean, you got to have automations for it, you know, there’s, I don’t really see any other way around it. Um, but yeah, there’s a ton of other things that, you know, birthdays, like we said, is just one of them. Yeah, you got newsletters, you got, I gotta tell you, one of them, like, and this is where education helps with lawyers, a drip campaign, right?

[00:11:58] Matt Spiegel: Like, when you’re, when your case is over. You should be putting your clients into a drip campaign. And most lawyers, you’re probably listening to this and thinking, well, what’s a drip campaign, right? Then drip campaign is just like, it’s like a series of touch points, whether it’s an email or phone call or something that is spread out over a fixed period of time.

[00:12:16] Matt Spiegel: So let’s say it’s a year and it’s drip because you just sort of drip a little bit to them every now and again, maybe an email after a month and then an email after three months and then a phone call after six months. And this is the cadence. Right. But you can’t do that without an automation. It’s impossible.

[00:12:33] Matt Spiegel: No one, yeah,

[00:12:34] Steve Fretzin: no, one’s going to do that. No, one’s going to keep track of that. And it’s going to become a real problem. The other thing that I’ve identified is that lawyers really have a hard time with, with even hearing the word like sales, they hate CRM, which is, which is client relationship management.

[00:12:48] Steve Fretzin: That’s what essentially that CRM stands for and it’s made its way a little bit into the legal space, maybe in the mid market, but. It really needs it really hasn’t needs to take a place in the solo small firm world and I don’t know that it that. It has. And that’s what I think you’re trying. One of the things you’re trying to

[00:13:05] Matt Spiegel: solve.

[00:13:06] Matt Spiegel: Yeah. And it hasn’t yet. Now, here’s the issue with it, right? The problem is that lawyers just don’t know what a CRM is, and this is the core to it, right? If you go ask a hundred lawyers, what is a CRM, you will get a hundred varying answers. And effectively almost every lawyer is using a CRM of some sort, right.

[00:13:26] Matt Spiegel: They may not even know, they may not even know that it’s a CRM and, you know, it functioning as a CRM may function a little bit differently than how I would define a CRM. But at the end of the day, if it’s like, you know, your phone, your iPhone, which has contacts in it as a type of CRM, right. It can take a look at, you know, the last phone calls that you’ve had with a contact and it can keep all this information about that contact that’s in a lot of ways, a CRM.

[00:13:51] Matt Spiegel: You know, the way I look at CRM in legal is pretty specific, right? To me, you know, like you said, client relationship management, it’s about the entire relationship with that client. And managing all aspects of that. That relationship starts the moment that they first reach out to you. It doesn’t start the moment they hire you.

[00:14:11] Matt Spiegel: It starts the moment they first reach out to your law firm. And that relationship never ends, right? It doesn’t end when their case is over. It never ends. That relationship is a lifetime relationship now. It ends if you dissolve your law firm. And then you’re no longer practicing law. That’s when you could, even still I would argue it doesn’t end.

[00:14:33] Matt Spiegel: But that’s a safe spot. Right? Like if we really wanted to find it, but other than that, the relationship doesn’t end. And so a tool to manage all aspects of that relationship is what a CRM is to

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[00:16:23] Steve Fretzin: out. And lawyers, I think they don’t know what it is or why it’s valuable.

[00:16:28] Steve Fretzin: And then B they, I think part of the problem is, and this is, this is my experience talking, cause I’ve been involved with CRMs for over 20 years and had my share of struggles. It’s, it’s a, that finding the right one that really fits for what, what’s going to work for them. And then how are they getting it customized and trained up and using it in a way that’s going to actually work?

[00:16:49] Steve Fretzin: Because I think they’re afraid they’re going to buy the software and then just not do what they need to do with it. So. That’s how do you, you know, that’s, that’s an important piece of it. So how do you guys work to, you know, you’re talking about customer service, how are you guys working to help, help integrate?

[00:17:03] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So from

[00:17:04] Matt Spiegel: our perspective, you know, we think the education and the onboarding with our platform in particular is critical to the whole experience. We understand you as a lawyer, you are not expected to know how to go build a marketing drip campaign. Or how to go, you know, craft all these different, you know, automations and things that you, uh, that, that we’re talking about today that are critical to the success of your business.

[00:17:29] Matt Spiegel: We get that. So our goal is to help you, right? We do know about that. We do have an immense amount of data that we can fall back on, right? Having, you know, helping thousands of thousands of lawyers out there. So we can provide a lot of best practices and a lot of help with. How to build these things out.

[00:17:45] Matt Spiegel: And that’s what we really focus on is trying to get things built for you. And, you know, when you’re, when you’re trying to get into automating, very important that you take some time. And approach it from a more mental standpoint, I think, then, then, then like a physical, just on the keyboard standpoint, you need to take a step back and think, okay, do I have a process right now?

[00:18:12] Matt Spiegel: Like, what is my process for this? Like, what is my intake process? What happens when someone reaches out to me? Do I do the same thing every time for, for every lead that comes in, or do I do something a little different depending on the practice area, you have to write out the way that your firm functions.

[00:18:30] Matt Spiegel: Whether it’s intake, whether it’s case management, whether it’s after the case is over every aspect that you’re, that you’re looking at potentially automate, you need to write out, do I have a process for it right now? If so, what is that process? And if I don’t, what do I want that process to look like?

[00:18:44] Matt Spiegel: What’s important to me? You can’t just go in there and just start trying to build automations. You will, it will actually end up causing more harm than it does

[00:18:53] Steve Fretzin: good. Yeah. I mean, knowing all the stages and just writing it, I mean, like what’s the, what’s the, um, You know, the client’s journey from beginning, you know, through, you know, you know, through follow through after the, after it’s done and that information not only improves customer service, but I think it also helps to, you know, manage and measure what you are doing, what’s working, what’s not.

[00:19:16] Steve Fretzin: And I think that’s a good lead into the next question I have for you, which is really about, uh, KPIs. And for those who don’t know, API stands for key performance indicators. Another thing that lawyers tend to not. Look into or look at or understand. So can you kind of define that? And then how CRMs and, and, and having systems can help with understanding and measuring what’s, what’s working and what, what should be, you know, Yeah.

[00:19:43] Steve Fretzin: How, how this all improves business.

[00:19:45] Matt Spiegel: Yeah. So look, a good CRM is going to, that’s a core piece to a good CRM is reporting. And so we’ll come back to that in a second, but I will say that, you know, you as a lawyer, right, listening in, like you, you are probably looking at some KPIs because KPIs can be, you know, any sort of metric, but my guess is that your KPI is revenue driven.

[00:20:04] Matt Spiegel: So your KPI is probably, well, how many hours have I billed or how many hours have my lawyers or my paralegals billed and. You know, whatever other KPI that’s centered around time and billing. That’s typically what you see, but those are KPIs, right? Those are definitely key performance indicators. The way we look at it is you need to be able to ask any question of your data.

[00:20:30] Matt Spiegel: And, and what I mean by that is like, you know, let’s say you’re out to lunch with a colleague from your law firm and you just start talking about like how we can grow our business or how we can, how we can do this, how we can do that. And all of a sudden you say like, man, I wonder why. And then insert line here, you know, man, I wonder like what, like how much money have we generated from, um, from that seminar that we did a month ago.

[00:20:54] Matt Spiegel: Right. You’re asking a question of your data. You should be able to answer all of those. And that to me are really is like custom reporting. Right. And from there you can derive KPIs. We spoon feed our customers, really important KPIs that we think are like, really take the pulse of your business. And I’ll give you an example.

[00:21:14] Matt Spiegel: I’ll give you like three of them. So one is conversion rate, right? That’s like a KPI that every business should be living and dying by. Oh, you got this many leads. How many became clients? How

[00:21:26] Steve Fretzin: good are you at? I’m gonna, I’m gonna jump in. I ask that question and rarely do they ever have any data. It’s usually a gut.

[00:21:33] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. How many, if you meet with 10 prospective clients, how many do you close and they go, I dunno, maybe 50% or maybe it’s never, they don’t ever have a real answer.

[00:21:45] Matt Spiegel: Yeah. And you need to know, because you’re gonna start spending money on marketing. You’re gonna start doing things to grow your business. You can’t measure if they’re working, if you don’t know your KPIs, and I think that’s, that’s the key to KPIs is that it gives you some account, it gives you accountability.

[00:21:59] Matt Spiegel: It gives you insight into the things that you’re going in and the efforts that you’re doing to make sure that they’re actually working. The other two that I will give you, which, which we obsessed over as, as a, you know, as a tech company, but as a law firm, it’s no different because if these numbers are out of whack, then you are.

[00:22:15] Matt Spiegel: You know, quite literally your business is failing and that is what’s your cost per lead and what’s your cost per client? How much money are you spending to get a lead and how much money are you spending to get a client, right? So if you spend a thousand dollars and you get, you know a hundred leads and you’re spending ten dollars for every lead that you get and if out of that same thousand dollars and those same hundred leads Right.

[00:22:44] Matt Spiegel: You get 50 customers, right? Well, now you have, well, this is how much it costs to get a customer, right? It was 10 for a lead and it’s 20 for a customer, right? Well, if your cost per customer is a thousand dollars, but your average revenue per customer is 800, well, guess what? That business is upside down, right?

[00:23:09] Matt Spiegel: And you’re failing, losing money on every customer you get. So you’ve got to know these metrics and then you got to drill these KPIs down. Into, well, you just have to drill them down. You got to drill down into the different campaigns you’re running. It’s not, there’s an overall number, but then you also have to get granular with how you look at it, because if I’m spending money on Google and I’m also spending money on, on Bing, right?

[00:23:31] Matt Spiegel: Well, they’re not going to both perform the same. Well, I want to know what’s my cost per lead on Google versus what’s my cost per lead on Bing. Maybe Bing cost me a lot more per lead, but I get more clients from it. So the cost per, the cost per customer is lower. These are all things that you

[00:23:45] Steve Fretzin: need to analyze.

[00:23:46] Steve Fretzin: Well, it’s interesting. I flip it around a little bit on the business development front. You know, how many hours did you spend last year, this year, for example, on business development, networking events, charities, conferences? How many leads did you get out of it? How many did you close? How much did you spend?

[00:24:01] Steve Fretzin: And, and, and all those questions are generally, you know, unanswered, or they’re just all ballpark. Because again, they don’t have a CRM. They don’t have. The, the data, but when we look at lost opportunity, we look at a time spent chasing after, you know, leads that you think are going somewhere, but they’re just giving you lip service and you know, how many times you meeting with them, how many proposals you may mean all these things have data points that lead back to inefficiency and where’s all your time going.

[00:24:28] Steve Fretzin: And as we know, time is money, so it’s business development and marketing aren’t that different if we look, if we break down the numbers. I agree a hundred percent. So it’s really interesting to, for lawyers to hear this, the potential solutions are j having automations really like, you know, getting into softwares that, that where you can plug things in and then have it pump out reports.

[00:24:53] Steve Fretzin: I mean that’s, that’s

[00:24:54] Matt Spiegel: at the heart of it. It is. Again, I think it’s really the only way to achieve it at this point. Right. You know, the automations are a big piece because it saves you incredible time and it allows you to do things that you couldn’t ordinarily do. But there’s so, you know, it’s, you really have to have access to the data.

[00:25:12] Matt Spiegel: You have to have the ability to slice and dice things the way that you want to custom reporting, things like that. That’s just really important in any CRM.

[00:25:20] Steve Fretzin: So, as I mentioned, I’ve been using Lawmatics for about three years. The top three things that I use it for, number one is it’s enhanced my auto scheduler.

[00:25:28] Steve Fretzin: So the whole, and I know there’s Calendly and Acuity works with those to customize pages and specific types of appointments with specific, you know, with my website and everything else. The idea that I don’t have to go back and forth is saving me, you know, hours and hours every day. Um, the second one that I absolutely love is the, um, the, the automated documents.

[00:25:51] Steve Fretzin: So I have all my contracts. I don’t have a ton of contracts. I have maybe three or four, but they’re all automated. I just sent a little message, customize a little bit, send them off. They come back. I’ve got the ACH done. I’ve got the signature. Everything is locked and loaded. I’m taking no checks in anymore.

[00:26:07] Steve Fretzin: Everything’s been automated and it’s just like, it couldn’t be easier. And then the third thing is, I think the home run and it’s what you took, you kind of got to earlier, which is the automations to follow up the fact that there’s some people I want to get together with twice a year, four times a year.

[00:26:21] Steve Fretzin: I want them to get an article. I want them to get. You know, regular ongoing correspondence outside of my newsletter, the newsletter, everybody’s getting, that’s like, that doesn’t, you know, have any particular settings. I just, everybody gets this, you know, newsletter, podcasts, articles, blah, blah, blah. But then there’s the, the, the, the customized ones that are to look to an individual that actually looked like an email or come, come much closer than a newsletter.

[00:26:47] Steve Fretzin: And I think that’s really where a lot of people are missing the boat.

[00:26:51] Matt Spiegel: And that’s a big part of what we do. Like you kind of just hit on it, you know, for us, it was like we were building our email platform and, you know, allowing you to build these emails that merge all sorts of data in there. So, you know, it can feel pretty personal.

[00:27:04] Matt Spiegel: One of the things we’re like, you know, if you use certain other email marketing platforms, the email that you receive looks like it’s was automated. It may like seem like English. But visually it looks like it’s got a board or it’s got something that you can tell him. This doesn’t look like someone just sat down.

[00:27:23] Matt Spiegel: It was actually very important to us to create an experience that made it look like it was really just written by the, by the lawyer, by the individual. Um, it was a very important aspect of, of how we built our email marketing platform. And then being able to, to merge in data that is sort of natural language data.

[00:27:42] Matt Spiegel: Right. So, you know, like you talked about calendaring, so, you know, someone books on your calendar, then you want to send them an email confirming saying, Hey, we’ve got you booked. And most things would say, Hey, we’ve got you booked for and then it would say, you know, September 3rd, whatever, but we want you to say, Hey, we’ve got you booked for next Tuesday at 1 30 PM.

[00:28:00] Matt Spiegel: And so giving you the, like, different formats of merge data to seem much more natural language. Was really important for us.

[00:28:08] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And it, and it, again, it just, it streamlined everything for me. I feel like I’m, I’ve got a handle on it and my whole business has to be. Time management organizationally focused because I’m teaching lawyers to be efficient with their time.

[00:28:22] Steve Fretzin: If I’m not practicing what I preach, I don’t want to be that hypocrite that that says, do what I say not as I do, um, you know, we do that. You know, I want to mirror that for everybody. My teenager. I want him to see what I’m doing. I want my clients to know that I’m out, you know, marketing and prospecting, you know, a similar way that I’d want them to really, really great.

[00:28:39] Steve Fretzin: So, you know, As we wrap up, Matt, I want to, uh, I do want to give some props to Lawmatics and have you do just kind of share the details. And I think we have a 10 percent discount for, uh, people that go to lawmatics. com slash be that lawyer. So I want to share that deal right away. And you’re not aware of that.

[00:28:56] Steve Fretzin: You’re looking at me like I’m insane. No, I’m just kidding. Uh, but, uh, that makes sense to me. That sounds good, . Uh, but I do love to do the, uh, game changing podcast. And this took you about a half a second to respond to me when I said, what’s your podcast? You went real fast with all in. Yeah. So tell, tell everybody about all in the podcast.

[00:29:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.

[00:29:15] Matt Spiegel: So all in is, and it’s like one of the most popular podcasts out there. So I’m definitely not original, but, and it’s, you know, it’s kind of right up my alley. It’s, you know, it’s generally tech minded, but it’s all in is, is four guys. It’s Jason Calacanis, Chamath Palihapitiya, David Sachs, and David Friedberg.

[00:29:34] Matt Spiegel: And these guys are, are just like incredible, very successful and entrepreneurs. I mean, like very, very, very successful. And they will talk about anything, current events. Finance, tech, all of it. And they are just exceptionally brilliant and they provide both sides. Of issues politically, personally, I mean, all of it.

[00:29:59] Matt Spiegel: It’s a really, really phenomenal group. It’s phenomenal content, and it’s just, uh, I find it wildly entertaining and educational. Um, I couldn’t recommend it

[00:30:09] Steve Fretzin: more. Yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s interesting. I have like a dozen podcasts, like lined up on my, on my thing and that isn’t one of them. So I, it, it, it may be super popular.

[00:30:19] Steve Fretzin: That doesn’t necessarily mean that everybody’s listening to it. I think we have to get turned on and maybe I’m just a weirdo, but I mean, we have to get turned on to some things. Um, that, that, you know, we hear from others. That’s one of the reasons I asked the question. It’s, I think I’ve mentioned this before, it’s selfishly, so I know what’s going on too.

[00:30:37] Steve Fretzin: Well,

[00:30:37] Matt Spiegel: and then, so that’s like my like, my go to, but then my, my guilty pleasure. Okay. Is um, uh, Bill, uh, Bill Simmons, the ringer. He’s got like a whole group of podcasts and he’s got one called the rewatchables. And I’m a big movie guy. Love. Yeah. I love movies. And the rewatchables is they just spend like an hour and a half and they take like an old movie that you could watch 200 times and they just dissect it and they go through like all these categories.

[00:31:05] Matt Spiegel: It’s super fun. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great.

[00:31:07] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Um, Well, very cool, Matt. If people want to get in touch with you or Lawmatics, they want to check it out and understand how we can help them. What are the best ways of them? You know, finding that out.

[00:31:19] Matt Spiegel: Yeah. So I always tell everybody, you know, going to our website is the best is the best option.

[00:31:23] Matt Spiegel: Um, www. lawmatics. com super easy. You can get a demo. You can talk to us, but also I always throw this out there. Email me. My email is Matt at lawmatics. com. I’m always happy to chat about anything. If you have a random question, just. You think that I’m, you know, maybe able to provide, um, some insight or, or, you know, maybe give you how not to do something which could help you figure out how to do something.

[00:31:47] Matt Spiegel: I’m happy to, happy to chat always. So

[00:31:50] Steve Fretzin: feel free to appreciate that. Well, this one, you got a direct, yeah, direct a direct line to the top of the, top of the pyramid, everybody. So right there, um, obviously wanna thank you for being a sponsor and, uh, and, and for collaborating with me and being, you know, helping my business quite frankly.

[00:32:04] Steve Fretzin: I also have to take a moment to thank our other sponsors, of course, get staffed up. Helping people to get those VAs, those full time VAs in place. And everybody knows my marketing guy, Sergio, and how, what a great job he does. That we keep my marketing up. And I know a lot of other lawyers and law firms that use, get staffed up and, and talk about how great, um, it is to have a full time VA.

[00:32:24] Steve Fretzin: And of course, get visible. If you’re looking for that digital, you know, advantage, and you’re looking for, that’s a good name, by the way, for, for marketing, a digital advantage enough, you want to change your name, uh, for our get visible guys. But, uh, they do a great job and, uh, you know, go to frets and. com.

[00:32:39] Steve Fretzin: If you want to see some of their wonderful work, um, uh, and of course, uh, just helping people get, get more leads and more business so that they can put things into your pipeline, Matt, with Lawmatics. So I was just went full circle on that. Uh, but thanks again, man, for coming back on the show, sharing your wisdom, talking about KPIs, talking about automations.

[00:32:56] Steve Fretzin: This is very important stuff for lawyers to get their act together to again, be that lawyer, someone who’s, you know, going to make it in this, in this, you know, tough

[00:33:05] Matt Spiegel: world. Yeah, I can’t thank you enough for having us. And, um, we’re very proud to be a sponsor. We, we don’t take that lightly. So we only do that with.

[00:33:14] Matt Spiegel: You know, with, with organizations that we think do a really good job, like we’re, you know, we’re going to attach our name to you. So we appreciate everything you’re doing and it’s great to be on.

[00:33:22] Steve Fretzin: Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you and, uh, and all that. And Hey, everybody, this is just another opportunity for you guys to continue to learn how to improve your law practice, uh, through automations and CRMs and, and lawmatics has it in spades.

[00:33:37] Steve Fretzin: So check that out. And, uh, again, trying every single week, twice a week to help you be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We’ll talk again very soon.

[00:33:51] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about Check out today’s show notes.