Michael Caroff: Creativity Within a Box

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Caroff discuss:

  • Imagery in marketing.
  • Understanding the purpose of the website before creating the design.
  • Trying different types of marketing.
  • Fitting together the parts of your marketing seamlessly.

Key Takeaways:

  • Find what makes you unique within your field and allow that to shine. Get creative and allow your website to shine!
  • Humans react to images before they react to text. Take the time to find the right image for your homepage banner.
  • Clients hire people, not companies.
  • Don’t make too many changes at the same time. It takes time to see the effectiveness of any tested changes.

“You want balance – you want it to be professional and clean enough that it represents you well, but you want it to be in the background, you have to come forward. It’s what I call transparent design. If you’re thinking about the design, either good or bad, you’re not thinking enough about the person or the firm.” —  Michael Caroff

Connect with Michael Caroff:  

Website: https://www.caroff.com/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Caroff

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/caroff-communications/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CaroffCommunications

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



people, website, lawyer, business, homepage, attorney, clients, firm, seo, steve, michael, design, read, fit, family, work, run, rock, create, recommended


Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Michael Caroff


Michael Caroff  [00:00]

Clients don’t hire companies, they hire people. And I always remind my clients that back, you’ve got to connect as a person before they’re going to hire you as a firm. Again, there’s a way to do that personality out without being inappropriate.


Narrator  [00:19]

Your list listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:41]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. As the announcer mentioned. I’m Steve Fretzin. And I’m so happy that you’re here. We are happening every single week, twice a week right now. And the goal of the show is to help you be that lawyer someone who is confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and what I try to do is just provide tips, tricks, ideas, through myself and through my guests to get to make sure that you’re stronger, busier than you’ve ever been. You’re making money. You’re living a balanced life, and you’re just enjoying being a lawyer. So to that I have a terrific guest as usual, but this guy has got a unique twist. His name is Michael Garraf. And he is the founder of karaf. Communications. How’s it going, Michael?


Michael Caroff  [01:19]

Pretty well. Steve. Thanks.


Steve Fretzin  [01:21]

Are you up for a mic? Or is it always Michael? Michael? I prefer no. Mikey, is that off the table?


Michael Caroff  [01:28]

Would have been on like 50 years ago.


Steve Fretzin  [01:30]

Okay. All right. Well, you know, in my family, it’s weird. We always do like E at the end of as long as it’s possible. So like, if it’s Michael it’s Mikey, if it’s Scott at Scotty and yes, I’ve gotten an occasional Stevie which, you know, we only keep within the family. Nobody else calls me that. But somebody dies my family does. I don’t give him too hard of time. Well, that was a weird tangent, I just went off on anyway. My peeps, no, I do a terrible job of introducing people. So if you wouldn’t mind giving a little background on yourself kind of where you came from. And one thing we’re going to talk about today is you’re a rock and roll star. So I definitely want you to bring you in to talk about that, too.


Michael Caroff  [02:02]

Absolutely. So after I got over the youthful fantasy of trying to be a rock star, which is you know what that really meant, in my mind at the time, I eventually got my first what I consider a real job, meaning that a job that I actually cared about. And that was working for Fender Guitars. And after a couple of years of doing some technical work for them, you know, writing, I got bored, and I talked them into letting me start a magazine, which I ran for eight years, it was called fender frontline. It was one of the best jobs I could imagine. In fact, all my friends said it was the best job they’d ever heard of. It’s helped me a lot besides being fun. During that time, while I was running it, an opportunity came up in 1995, to both build and market my first website. So in my mind, I started then, and this guy that hired me to do this paid me on commission. So not only that, I learned website building and marketing at the same time. But I was highly motivated to make the marketing work, because that’s how I made money. And that’s how I started the company. And I’ve been running it ever since then.


Steve Fretzin  [03:08]

So very cool, Michael. So translate that to growing an actual business, and eventually how you came to work with lawyers.


Michael Caroff  [03:15]

When I started the magazine, I began as almost a one man show, I was doing all the writing on the layout, all the photography, everything. But I graduated over the eight years, I ran it to managing a process and running a team. And so I learned a couple of things in the process. One of them was how to build and manage a team of people, which is critical, as you know, I’m running a business. But the second thing was how to manage and run a team of people that were external, that were remote. And this was before the internet. So I was doing it all with phone and fax and mail. So when it came, the opportunity came up to run my business, I already had developed those skills. And so I started the same way. I did everything myself, I did the layout, I did the coding, I did all the marketing, outreach and everything. And eventually, I built up a really solid team of people to help me do it. And one of the principles I look for in bringing people onto the team is I look for people that are at least as smart if not smarter than I am. What’s the point of hiring somebody and then having to just show them everything. I want them to bring ideas to me and I really liked that process. So the way that it sort of morphed into working for a lot of attorneys was they were just happen to be a good fit. SEO is not an inexpensive process. It takes time, people hours per month, and it takes months on end to make it work. So it’s not for the faint of heart of the person who has a $200 a month marketing budget. And I found that professional services firms, legal medical and financial and especially legal especially lawyers, were right in that wheelhouse. They had the marketing budget. They appreciated the work. I was able to bring them enough business to far more than you know account for the money they were spending on marketing. So It was a good fit, and it built up from there. You know, as you work in one genre or industry vertical for a long time you start to get to know some of the tips and tricks with a trade, you get better at it, and then you get known for it. And it just built from that.


Steve Fretzin  [05:13]

So what were some of the things that you when you mentioned fit? I think that’s a really great word. It’s probably one of my favorite words, especially when I put on pants. But when you say fit with lawyers and legal community, what are the kinds of things that you saw them challenged by where you were the fit where it just made sense? You mentioned budget, you mentioned certain things, but is there more in that in the sense of what they need and how you help them?


Michael Caroff  [05:37]

Yes, like, a lot of businesses, and especially professional services, if you take all the attorneys in one field, let’s say personal injury, or estate planning or something, everybody that’s in that field, essentially does the same thing. And but what they all want to do is say the same thing, oh, we’re really good. Oh, we have a good factory, oh, we really care about our clients, you know, those are all fine, but they’re true for all of them. So in no way does it make any individual attorney standout when I was able to adapt was taking creativity within a box. Okay, because if you’re building a website for an attorney, you don’t want to get all wacky, and you know, and crazy colors and weird images and all that. Yeah, it’ll make people remember them, but it won’t tie in well with the profession. What you want to do is take the the sort of limitations of professional service like that, and say, within that, how do I make it creative enough to make people remember that person and set them apart. And that has a lot to do with personal brand. This is one of my bugaboos about the web, the web is anonymous. So everybody can look the same. And it’s very impersonal. So when you’re presenting yourself on the web, I believe that one of the most powerful things you can do is let your personal self or your personal brand out, so that people can start to make a connection. They know you, they want to get to know you more,


Steve Fretzin  [07:04]

do you have a specific example of someone that you did that with where they had something unique about them, and you were able to kind of flip it into how they’re, you know, standing out in amongst estate planners or personal injury attorneys?


Michael Caroff  [07:16]

I’ve got a few. Yeah, so I’ll start with an estate plan, because that’s one of the sort of driest you know, forms of law, there’s not a whole lot of excitement to it. And there’s not supposed to be what they’re doing is very serious. One of the clients that we’ve worked with for several years in SEO was a an estate planner in California, in San Diego. And we were able to get them to a certain point with SEO, but we kind of ran up against the limitations, because again, they were like all the other state planners. So they asked me if rebuilding their website, because we didn’t build it in the beginning would make a difference. And I said, Absolutely. And what I did was, I took what I felt was one of their distinctive characteristics. And that is they are a complete family run firm, the dad with two daughters, the Son, the daughter is in love. And I felt that was huge for that kind of law. So I put that front and center. Let’s make sure people know that your family farm, let’s make sure we talk about the connections and highlight instead of just saying, oh, yeah, we’re related. And that made a big difference. It brought a warmth to their website and missing before and the results were amazing. And you know, the conversions they had grew like crazy. And I think it was in great part because of that.


Steve Fretzin  [08:32]

That’s awesome. So it’s the creativity that I think makes a website really hum. And a lot of people are using like cityscapes in the background, or they’re using, you know, here’s a picture of a family, or it’s just really standard stuff. What are some things that you have done creatively to change the game for some of your clients in the homepage design, in messaging in text? What are some things that you either recommend, or that you’ve done that people could, you know, emulate, or at least maybe get some ideas around?


Michael Caroff  [09:04]

Let’s start with photographs. Because that is a big part. Let’s face it, human beings are visual species and we react to images before we react to text. So I will spend hours combing through 10s of 1000s of photos to find just the right ones, especially for the homepage banner, which is the first thing people see when I’m looking for is something that has an emotional impact. It doesn’t necessarily have to do with a subject. So I don’t necessarily need to show an estate lawyer, you know, signing a document for it to be excited about that. In their case, what I used was a family walking along a beach. And again, it doesn’t you could say well, there’s a connection because they do family planning, estate planning. But it wasn’t about that. These people were having a good time. They were obviously a family obviously had warm feelings in the photograph. It was a nice pleasant environment, which is the minute you got there. To give you a feeling, and you know the old real estate adage, when you go to put an offer on a house, it has less to do with the square footage, and all the technical aspects of the house. And it does if when you walk in, they say, you’re going to know, within 60 seconds, if you’re going to put an offer that happens down here, right in our emotion Planning Center, and then we spend the rest of the day the visit, I think why it is that we should put an offer on that house, we’ve already made the decision, we’re just rationalizing the same thing with websites, you get there, and you’re gonna decide within a matter of seconds, how you see all about that firm of that person. So I can provide a good feeling right off the bat, and a good part of his job. The other part of that equation, that photograph is I wanted to make people think just a little bit. So as an example, I recently did one for a patent attorney. Okay. And the photo I picked was a guy in a business dude suit standing on a rock looking off and don’t rise in the clouds. Now, what does that have to do with that attorneys? Not very much. But you know what the first thing anybody says, when they look at your site, let’s put that photo. From when I when I first did it, the attorney so how am I like to say, Trust me give this a shot. And since then he’s really come to appreciate that it makes people think and remember him? Yeah, no, not a bad way. I mean, look, if I had a photo of a bunch of junk, it might make the government This is tragic. But it was provocative, and that’s part of what I look for it.


Steve Fretzin  [11:34]

Well, and I think the imagery in the emotion is why, you know, if we want to go to the granular level, you know, every time I see a commercial on TV for a new pharmaceutical, where there’s horrible side effects, they always show people skipping rope and playing, you know, rocking at the beach, and all that right there just covering up the visual covers up. But in this case, you’re giving a visual that not only makes people think, but also brings out some emotional element that connects them with the lawyer connects them with the, you know, even though estate planning, you know, it’s kind of talking about death a little bit. But we’re also talking about retirement, we’re talking about family we’re talking about, you know, peace of mind.


Michael Caroff  [12:12]

Yes, that’s exactly what it is, and you want a calming fixture. Whereas with the pet attorney, I wanted something a little bit edgy, you know, something that made them think so it’s really a different flavor for each, not only vertical in within law, but also each person with a boss gotta fit them.


Steve Fretzin  [12:31]

Yeah, so so you’ve got some imagery that I think is really unique, and that makes people stand out. And also, you know, brings that emotional tie, what are some other things that you have recommended to people as far as how they stand out something that’s going to get attention, differentiate them from 100 lawyers around them.


Michael Caroff  [12:49]

One of the things I always encourage people to do, and I will admit, this sometimes ends up being a struggle, was getting them to let out some personal facts about themselves. I don’t mean, they have to tell people what their sort of social security number was, or where they were born. But, you know, what are your hobbies? You know, what do you do for fun? Once you back I like your family. Are you into sports, you know, it’s polite to make a personal connection. As a company president, the last company I worked for many years ago told me, Michael, clients don’t hire companies, they hire people. And I always remind my clients that back, you’ve got to connect as a person, before they’re going to hire you as a firm. Again, there’s a way to do that personality out without being inappropriate.


Steve Fretzin  [13:35]

I did a social media posts recently, because this has been coming up a lot. And I think it goes right in line with what you’re saying. But sharing what your why is, why are you doing what you do? Why are you in the business you’re in? Why are you all about what you are. So you can just say I’m an estate planning attorney, or you could share your why or what your purpose is, or what people might actually care about more than just your academic title. And so what’s your thoughts on that and pulling from there?


Michael Caroff  [14:04]

I’m 100% with you an excellent point. And when I get brought in to design a site in an ideal world, and as you know, the world is very rarely ideal. But in an ideal world, they’d already have a logo, a tagline copy, they’ve already had really thought through that whole personal branding thing. Nine times out of 10 they have not. So I have to create that. And a lot of what I’m looking for when I come up with a tagline because when you do a homepage, you don’t want to have a paragraph that you’ve got to read. First you need to tagline it tells you immediately who they are, what they stand for. And as you say why they’re doing it. And I often delve into the why to create that tagline.


Steve Fretzin  [14:44]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You’re really it sounds like starting from the bottom up like what’s their why you get that tagline that might help you then create the rest of the site from there. So you’re kind of starting from like, kind of the most important part and then building around it.


Michael Caroff  [14:58]

You have to Yeah, You don’t want to start with the imagery. First, you need something that’s going to tell you what the imagery should be. Got it, starting with the why, as I said, is an excellent point. That is the beginning of not only the personal branding, but also the firm print


Steve Fretzin  [15:12]

is that sort of the biggest mistake or one of the biggest mistakes that lawyers make when they create a website, or they work with a company to create a website that either they just slap it together? Or they just they just want to throw something up? And there’s just not a lot of thought about the why or about what it’s trying to accomplish? What are some of the mistakes that you see in the website that people come to you with that, you know, are sort of trash? And there were that clear that they were just sold a bill of goods that isn’t really benefiting them? Yeah. The first one is,


Michael Caroff  [15:39]

people build website to design websites backwards, they start with a I like the way this website looks, then they figure out what they’re going to put into it that fits that thing that’s already laid out. And then at the very end, they go, Hmm, what should the website do for us? What’s the purpose? You want to start the opposite? You want to start with? What’s the purpose of the website? Is it to drive leads? Is it to, you know, impress current customers? Is it to give people information online? What do we want it to do for us? And then from that, you say, alright, based on what we wanted to do, what should be the content? Do we have videos, what’s the text content, and what kind of things we can, what kind of functionality is going to be on it? At the very end? You use the design to support? So like I said, it’s generally the exact opposite of what most people do, they start with a look and go, I like this look. And now they have to fit things in to fit that look. And it’s not about them, it’s about the look. That is I have to say the major problem with websites, and it’s rampant everywhere I see. The second major problem is letting the website look overtake you. A website can be poorly designed in two ways. One way is shoddy and sloppy and not very well designed. And then that’s obviously a problem. Most people can see that. What they don’t see what if a website is so cool and slick that you’re looking at and thinking about the site, not the person or firm on it. So you want to balance you want it to be professional and clean enough that it represents you well, but you want it to be in the background, you have to come forward. It’s what I call transparent design. If you’re thinking about the design, you’re good or bad, you’re not thinking enough about the person or the firm owed.


Steve Fretzin  [17:27]

Yeah, there’s actually a web guy whose think is pretty good. He had something on his website where it had a slider where it was kind of like before and after, like the site before the site after, and he had a kind of a slider where you could kind of see the before and after. I mean, that was so slick. But I found myself just like playing with it. Like I was so enamored with the slickness of that cool slider tool that he had created or whatever, that I wasn’t really paying attention to anything else.


Michael Caroff  [17:54]

You weren’t looking at what he wanted you to see. But before and after that he did you were looking until a perfect example of that is slideshows on the homepage, which I have very strongly recommended against for the last few years, it’s been proven that, like dogs, we’ve looked at motion. So we’re not people think I want to get all the information. I also want to put sliders and make people see each thing. What happens if you’re looking at the emotion, you know, looking at the motion, yeah, you’re not actually reading what it is. So I say let’s pare it back, like pick out what’s most important. Put that there and give them the chance to absorb it. Okay, I come up with a third thing. Too much information. At one time I get this question a lot. Is this too much information for website? How much do we have on it, you can have everything you want, you can have the encyclopedia on the website, as long as you break it down into bite sized pieces that people can absorb. You throw it all at them, they’re gonna go away. It’s so overwhelming. If you give it to them bit by bit, let them dive down what they want to let them absorb, be able to get a lot more stuff across. There’s been studies that show magazine layouts, we have like a spread, you know, an article and then they have like pull up boxes and quotes and things. That’s what people always read first is what’s in the little boxes, because it’s easiest to absorb that little bit of information. To do the same thing on websites, give people little boxes and little areas that they can quickly absorb, and then move on to the next thing.


Steve Fretzin  [19:19]

Yeah, our minds are like little mats. Like we’re just on to the next thing. And we’re just we’re moving constantly, right? So who’s going to sit and read for five, six paragraphs on a website, you know, page to learn about the firm. I mean, that’s just not going to happen? Well, you


Michael Caroff  [19:33]

might if you get engaged at a certain point, it’s always good to have that. Like I don’t make people read it. If they don’t want to.


Steve Fretzin  [19:41]

I mean like on social media, maybe I’m wrong. But like on social media. There’s a couple of great writers and I’ll give some shoutouts Dan gershenz and Frank Ramos and Pete where they write like a couple of paragraphs where they I call it a rant where they’re kind of going off about something and I once I read the first or second sentence, I’ll read the whole thing down But there might be somebody that has a video or an image or something where I won’t look at it at all. So it may be it is about how just like with any book or anything, you gotta grab the reader and pull them in, and then maybe they’ll keep reading.


Michael Caroff  [20:11]

And people will be different. You know, I know a lot of people that if they’re looking for information online, they always prefer video, like how to video. I personally prefer text because I can scan down and get what I want and move on. But everybody’s different, you should give people options. Now one of the things I’ll do for longer articles, and I’ve got all my letters trained to do this is never have more than two or three paragraphs in a row without breaking it up with a subject. So that people if they want to, they can scan down and see this stuff. Oh, yes, I want to find out about this, or they can move on and go down. And oh, is the one that here that I’m interested in. If they want to read that way, some people will read the whole thing.


Steve Fretzin  [20:46]

Right. So let me ask you this question. I mean, the website is, you know, the base of operations for any business, right? A law firm, or any accounting firm doesn’t matter. That’s the base. And then there’s a bunch of tentacles coming out of it. The blog or podcast could be social media, and there’s a bunch of things that work to drive traffic into it. And so what are some of the things that you’ve seen, too, that are seem to be driving the most traffic to a website that you’re recommending to your clients to use? Because a website that doesn’t have traffic, right that with no. And again, depending on what it’s used for, no matter what you want traffic going to? I mean, you know, so what are the things that surround the website that you’re recommending now more than ever?


Michael Caroff  [21:28]

So the first thing, I want to just just make a quick point, before I dive into that, it’s not a website can be valuable without having traffic driven to it. And that is the case for some businesses, because it’s going to represent you when people find out about your fee. If you go to a networking event, you can summon your business card, what’s the first thing you’re gonna do, you’re gonna go home and bring up your website. So it’s like having a nice office, it may not bring in business, but it’s going to make an impression when they get there. But as far as bringing traffic in, there is no one rule. You know, 1520 years ago, I just said it’s all about SEO. But now it can be about SEO, it can be about pay per click, which is kind of like a paid form of SEO. Not only that, but there are many different forms of paperwork, advertising you can do. It can be about social media, and now there are multiple channels used to be able to use LinkedIn and Facebook. Well, now there’s Instagram and Tiktok. We recently had a an attorney, actually a PII attorney who came to us and said, You know, I think maybe we should look at tick tock, tick tock for PII attorney Willie turned out he had 150,000 followers on Tiktok news, getting tons of you. Well, you can bet that we took a look at that we started advertising. No, yeah. Okay. YouTube, advertising can be very, very powerful. But the thing about all this stuff is no one channel or group of channels works for everybody, you have to try different things and see what audience members are going to react to. It’s easy to fall in that trap of but what we do this, but you’ve really got to be open to trying new things and test.


Steve Fretzin  [22:59]

Yeah. And that’s something that I don’t think people are doing enough of, they’re not testing whether and I don’t care if it’s a website, or social media or anything. You’ve got to test and make adjustments. And so what are some things that you’ve done specifically in websites where you’ve tested out maybe two different approaches? Or two different landing pages? And what were the differences? And how did you figure out what worked. And we


Michael Caroff  [23:19]

will often do that, build multiple landing pages or start with one and then make variations on it. Use just the data will tell you, you know, you can make assumptions, like what we think we said on the phone ever higher, we do this, but until you actually test it and try it, you won’t know. And it’s different for every person. There are some clients, we have where the homepage is the biggest number, you know, there’s a rule in Pay Per Click marketing that says you don’t drive visitors to the homepage, just to general, we drive them to a specific landing page. And most of the time, that’s true. But we’ve also had the case where it worked a lot better, we drove people to the homepage, and oftentimes will work that you drive into an insight page if it’s the right kind of page. So again, you just got to test it and try now the one thing to be careful of and this is what we run into a lot is you don’t want to make too many changes at the same time. So we’ll have something where we’ll move a phone number or create a button for a client and we’ll come back in a week, because we’re working to change it. We don’t know yet. It’s only been a week, you know, we only have a few dozen, you know visitors to it. We always say look, you should wait at least a month for any test like that, and give it a chance to work. It may not be the right thing. But you will know. The other thing is don’t do too many things at the same time. What if you make five or six changes on a page? And it turns out that it worked better? How do you know what it was maybe two of the things made it work works. So that’s why you’ve got to do it a bit at a time accepting, you know, it takes a lot of patience and a lot of trust on clients to be able to do this because they want to see the instant results right away. But, you know, we’re marketers we’re not profits.


Steve Fretzin  [24:51]

Okay, right. You look you can make profit, though. We certainly try. There you go. So I worked at around, but at the end of the day You know, look, everybody needs to figure out a way to get their brand out there a way to put their best foot forward. And it sounds like you’ve got a really good system for evaluating and trying to figure out the right angles for lawyers and law firms to go. I’ve got a question off topic a little bit, obviously, in talking with you and getting to know you a little bit. Michael, you’re a rock star you are. So two questions. Number one, what’s largest audience you’ve ever played for? And number two, is what’s your favorite rock band?


Michael Caroff  [25:29]

The largest audience is pretty easy. That’s about 6000 On the beach in Del Mar, California. Wow, that’s cool. And my favorite rock man, you know, this is tough. I have a very wide taste in music, everything from classical to jazz to rock to. But if you put me against a wall with a gun to my head and said you pick your favorite band right now you’re toast. Yeah, it has to be Kansas.


Steve Fretzin  [25:51]

Oh, love Kansas. Yeah. Why Kansas?


Michael Caroff  [25:54]

Because their music is so beautifully intricate. Yeah, it’s so interesting. And it all works not interesting. And hey, wow, look at all the stuff we did we have a tough but interesting and that it makes you was really cool. Hey, that really works. I really love that. You know, it’s all these parts fitted together seamlessly. So it doesn’t sound that complicated, but it is


Steve Fretzin  [26:16]

Yeah, very cool. I love Kansas love Journey. Love all that classic 80s rock. Yeah, good stuff.


Michael Caroff  [26:23]

So simpatico, yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [26:25]

right and also right old, but that’s okay. So if people want to get in touch with you to learn more about you know your business care off communications, or they want to ask you some rock and roll questions. What’s the best way for them to reach out to you


Michael Caroff  [26:38]

the website you know, hair off.com Does that company name and all they I’m very easy to reach you know, if you even just search for it online will come up and if you really want to see just the band you can search for California Santana tribute band and we’ll come up for that too. But the easiest way is my website


Steve Fretzin  [26:55]

when you play the guitar, so it’s all that Santana stuff that’s tough to play. It isn’t


Michael Caroff  [26:59]

it isn’t. It’s not technically HARD TO to play as far as finger wants. It’s not that kind of guitarists. It’s hard to get his phrasing. Yeah, no, Sinatra of the guitar. He has a way of kind of twisting time back and forth that you really got to pay attention to get it.


Steve Fretzin  [27:16]

Okay. Wow. Well, we’re learning a lot today. Michael, thanks so much for being on the show. And hopefully everybody at home listening, got some good takeaways and tips on websites and creativity and all that. Really appreciate you being with me. Always great to talk to you, Steve. Awesome. And hey, everybody. Hopefully again, you got a couple of good takeaways from today’s show. More to come. And again, you know the idea here to be that lawyer someone who is confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be well be safe.


Narrator  [27:46]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes