In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Fielding discuss:
- Changing your mindset around networking.
- Michael’s three-part formula for business development.
- The evolution of client problems and anticipating where the market is headed.
- Growing your knowledge base and expanding your ability to solve problems.
- Maintain the relationships that you build in law school as well as in your law firms. You never know when these relationships will be profitable for you and them.
- As attorneys, your job is to discover what the client’s problems are. Some are regularly occurring, as well as rare, unique problems that you will need to solve.
- It is important to be able to think of client problems, pivot as necessary, and anticipate the problems that are going to be coming down the pipeline.
- To really do substantive, meaningful work to really help clients, you have to, every day, be putting in some deep, focused, concentrated effort.
“You have to have all three essential elements: relationships, problems, and knowledge. When you get the intersection of all three of those elements, that’s when you get legal work.” — Michael Fielding
Connect with Michael Fielding:
The 3-Part Business Development Formula: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qe7rhehyu5hbbix/2022-9-15%20–%20Fielding%20–%20BD%20Formula.docx?dl=0
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
problems, client, relationships, attorneys, business, firm, lawyers, practice, important, helping, circles, formula, knowledge, elements, network, big, legal, steve, people, work
Narrator, Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff
You have to have all three essential elements. And these elements are relationships, problems, and knowledge.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:36]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am your host, Steve Fretzin. I hope you’re having a lovely day. And listen, we want to continue to make sure that you’re getting value every single time you turn this this show on. And one way to do that is to grab some books. If you like reading books, and you think that there’s some some nuggets of wisdom you can pull, go to Amazon checkout, Steve Fretzin on Amazon, I’ve got four books work in the most recent international best seller. legal business development isn’t rocket science. And I think that might have been something Mike said to me. Hey, you know what, Steve, this isn’t rocket science. Mike, did you ever say that to me?
I may have done that. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [01:10]
Hey, Fretzin. I don’t think what you’re teaching is rocket science. I know, man, I could admit that. It isn’t. But it’s important, but it’s not rocket science. I’m gonna introduce Mike in a minute. He’s my buddy and so happier with me Mike, we’re gonna have some fun today, I want to take a moment to thank the sponsors. We’ve got practice Panther, helping people get automated and get your time you know, figured out and make sure you’re taking your intake properly and keeping track everything and updating Doc’s and automating everything you can around your law practice. We’ve got legalese, taking the marketing off your plate. And of course money Penny working on your website with live chat and also live reception. Don’t have to have a full time receptions these days, folks. It’s just about having someone pick up the phone that can be professional and make sure that you get that important intake call. All right, Mike. So we’re gonna get going with your quote of the show, which is a very simple and very pleasant quote, be of good cheer. Is that like a mantra? You say that yourself be a good year to talk it down?
You know, what didn’t? Yeah. How do you use that? Yeah. So I mean, that St. John 1633 out of the Bible. But you know, it’s this notion, this, it’s this idea of just being positive. I mean, the practice law is really tough. And we all have difficult times. But what I’ve found is that when you’re just positive, be of good cheer. You get through the problems, it’s when you get all down and depressed. It’s like, it’s like you’re adding some additional weight and burden to you. So it but if you can get that positivity, it’s like, at least take that the added weight off of you, and you’re better able to confront and address the problems you’re dealing with.
Steve Fretzin [02:45]
Yeah, I’m usually, I don’t know, I’ve called myself an optimistic curmudgeon, because I think I’m definitely had like glasses half full, positive, optimistic, but I’m also sometimes grumpy about it. So I don’t know how that plays out how that plays out. But it does, and I don’t know i But generally, I’m the guy who’s picking people up and you know, being a coach. And you know, if you’re a coach, and you’re negative, I’m not exactly sure how that works. Yeah, sucks to be you. Is that like, that would be a good coaching, coaching position to take? Probably not. Anyway, Mike Fielding, you are a partner at Husch Blackwell, and so good to have you. You’re a past client of mine, your great success story, you put a lot of thought into business development. I mean, you even send me a formula that you came up with that we’re going to talk about, but give your background to my audience. So they know kind of, you know, what area of practice you’re in, kind of like, how you got started in legal and kind of what’s your story?
Sure. So yeah, happy to introduce myself. And thanks for having me on your your show today. So just by a little bit of background, I have been at the law firm, a Husch. Blackwell, for the past 21 years. I’m in Kansas City, Missouri, the heart of the Midwest. And I’ve done my entire career focusing on insolvency work, distressed debt, resolving problems along those lines. And you know, being in the Midwest and seeing the needs for it have actually, thankfully, as a matter of client development have become licensed in Missouri, Kansas, Iowa, and Nebraska, just as a means to really help clients dealing with distressed loans, agricultural loans, in particular, so, and like you said, you and I work together. It’s always been an effort to try to grow and improve my practice. And it’s been great.
Steve Fretzin [04:26]
Yeah, I mean, I think about Ukraine, and I don’t know if it’s the vitamins that go in manure or the grain or whatever. But I mean, I have to believe that’s affecting
Agra. Absolutely. There is, you know, we could do a whole podcast. That’s a different show. Yeah, a different show. But yeah, there’s a lot of stress out there in the agricultural world globally. I’m certainly concerned for the future globally, just the food supply in the next coming year. But and there’s a lot of challenges domestically for farmers input costs and things like that. It’s, it’s going to be I think, a rough ride ahead for just this economy, generally with the rising rates. So We’ll see what happens.
Steve Fretzin [05:00]
Okay. And we worked together in 20, I believe 2021. And we kind of had some kind of, you know, connection where we decided that it’d be good to focus on business development, I think you’ve always been focusing on it. But you came to me with some challenges. And I think you see, other lawyers have similar challenges where business development just isn’t something that either comes naturally or be it you know, as you know, it’s not taught in law school. So what were some of the things that you had going on with you? And that you see happening with other lawyers around why business development isn’t isn’t maybe front and center the way that it is now? For you? Yeah, sure.
So I think one of the problems that I have, and I think a lot of attorneys have is some of us are just natural introverts. We don’t like getting out. We don’t like networking, it’s always been a bit of an Achilles heel for us. And I could see that that was an area where I really, frankly, I needed some help. I mean, I like practicing law. I love the technical nature of it. But it was that networking aspect that was really hard, which is why I came to you and I, candidly, I thought it was really beneficial. Because yes, I’ve done stuff leading up to that. But in hindsight, a lot of things that I were doing were less effective means of networking. And I mean, I’ll say you’re not getting paid for any of this here. What am I? What happened?
Steve Fretzin [06:17]
What it’s for the 20?
Yeah, right. But I mean, what happened was, you kind of helped me realize that some of my past practices were not efficient. And it was really a big mindset change, for me to networking to the point now where I feel that my networking efforts are much more effective and much more efficient. So so thank you for that. Yeah. Well,
Steve Fretzin [06:37]
listen, that’s, that’s what I’m here for. And again, I try to find motivated, ambitious, interested, open minded attorneys. And you are that and that doesn’t mean that we don’t have tough times together. That doesn’t mean we don’t have you know, times where we’re feeling down, or we’re feeling like things aren’t going our way. We just have to persevere and of course, be of good cheer to your point. So you’ve you’ve not only come a long way, but also you’ve put some real thought into business development for lawyers and actually created a formula that I think you were excited to send me because I saw you like really put some thought into a diagram and explanations. And I’d love to get into that, because I think it would be really helpful for other lawyers to hear your thoughts on sort of the formula for business development.
Sure, yeah, happy to share that. And candidly, I’m hoping that others can share about this. And that helps them kind of think from a very big picture perspective as to what they need to do to really enhance their practice. So this idea really came to me, I don’t know, maybe about a year ago, and then it’s it’s just been on my mind much more recently. But when you think about how do you get legal work, there is a three part formula. And you have to have all three essential elements. And these elements are relationships, problems, and knowledge. And we’ll talk about that. But if you don’t have all three of those elements, you are not going to get legal work.
Steve Fretzin [08:03]
So when you say problems, are you saying that lawyers have like personal emotional problems? No, no. We need we need. lawyers need personal emotional problems. That’s how you get business. Yeah, right. Right. I know I just use it. Yeah, but why don’t you go? Yeah, might go through those because I think a little more detail on on those three points. And how they then intersect would be really interesting to hear. Yeah,
let me give a quick analogy. To get fire, there’s three elements, you need oxygen, key, and fuel. And if you take away one of the one of those three, you don’t have fire. And it’s the same thing here with these three elements. So let’s talk about them. So the first element, the relationships, that is who’s in your network, who are the relationships that you as an attorney have? That’s element number one, element number two, the problems are, what are the legal problems or the legal challenges that our clients have? And then the third element is knowledge. Do you as an attorney, have the ability to help fix those problems. And when you get the intersection of all three of those elements, that’s when you get legal work, that oftentimes people may be struggling, and they’re not getting the legal work. And I can almost promise you that you go back, you’ll find that at least one of those three elements is missing.
Steve Fretzin [09:21]
Yeah. So let’s break these down further. And so let’s start with relationships. Why is that so critical to getting
work to getting that business? Well, the legal profession as a service based profession, we are, you know, yes, we represent corporations, we’re really helping or interacting with human beings and other human beings and so we have to interact or relate. Now, it’s important to realize that when we talk about this formula, this formula applies to the very brand new associate as well as to the very seasoned practitioner. So let’s let’s give an example. So if I’m a brand new associate, starting out at a law firm who You know, I don’t have those relationships with clients or whomever. But I do have relationships with the existing attorneys in the firm. And so it’s critical that the other attorneys in the firm know who I am. So that when they have client needs, they can then come to me, so that I can use my knowledge to help solve the problem. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [10:20]
so it’s internal relationships, maybe as a starting point, I would add something to that, that most young associates and even Law School students have relationships, they just don’t realize that they’re important, they don’t realize that that’s that they’re important to maintain, because in the future, that person sitting to your left in law school class, you know, as as an L to whatever, like, that’s going to be the GC of a business in 10 years. And so if the person is a total jerk, maybe you don’t even want to deal with that person. But if that person’s a friend of that person you like, and you guys are, you know, working well together, you may want to maintain that relationship and keep it going and times that by 10, or 20. And now you’ve got, you know, all kinds of opportunities that can present itself. If, if you’re focused on building relationships.
Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think when we think about your network or your relationships, you can divide it into two big buckets, you need to focus on maintaining your existing relationships. And then you need to focus on growing new relationships. And obviously, there’s, you know, some people who, at the end of the day, probably can’t bring you business. And then you have to ask the question, is this a relationship I want to maintain isn’t something that I need to with my limited time need to maybe let go a little bit, and it’s, you know, it’s a constant juggling act. But yeah, keep those two buckets in mind.
Steve Fretzin [11:40]
And we worked on that together in I’ve actually improved some of my acronyms that I’m not going to test you on my to remember the acronyms I gave you, but one of them was talent. And I think the time it didn’t have any, but you know, trust authority, likability network, empathy is the one I added recently. And then of course, are they a top player. So what that means is, when you’re networking with someone, you’re not just meeting with them, and in being nice and making friends. And that’s the end of it. It’s actually qualifying their successes and network or their ability to refer their interest in referring their ability to play ball, because that’s someone you want to keep close with, versus someone who maybe doesn’t fit the bill that way. And you might want to let them loose and not spend the time following up because time is your most precious, you know, asset. Right, right.
Right. I think that’s a good point. And I guess to that point, Steve, because this thing gets into these other elements. When we think about these three elements that I’ve identified here, your relationships, the client problems and your knowledge, I like to think about a circle for each one. And I know this is a podcast, but I’m asking, try to regionalize in their mind these three circles and where they intersect. And it’s really critical that if you think about that, when you have these three circles coming together, there’s going to be that that middle point, that bullseye, where depending on where the location of those circles are, that Bullseye will get bigger or smaller. And so if you’re trying to drive or develop more legal work for you or for your firm, what you need to do is try to drive those circles together, because that expands that Bullseye that Trifecta where all three of those come together. So if I’m looking at my, my network and my relationships, and I’m saying what do I need to do to try to enhance my legal practice, I wanted to be trying to push that network in the direction towards where those client problems are at, as opposed to pushing it in the opposite direction, because that’s going to have the benefit of generating more legal work.
Steve Fretzin [13:47]
Right? Let me let me let me add to that, because you’re so spot on, like, so think about this, everyone has relationships, some of those relationships, those people are interacting with others that have the kinds of problems that you solve. So for example, an estate planner is going to run across clients who have divorce needs more so than maybe someone who’s working, you know, in an IP in a big firm, like, that’s not going to happen multiple times a year, maybe once every couple of years, a friend needs a divorce. So it’s not only knowing who the relationships are and building them up, but also are they intersecting with the problems where you’re going to be the natural solution or natural introduction? That’s gonna allow for those problems to come to you?
Yes, yeah. You’re spot on what you’re saying. Yep.
Steve Fretzin [14:37]
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Jordan Ostroff [15:18]
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Steve Fretzin [15:41]
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Stephanie Vaughn Jones [15:44]
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Steve Fretzin [15:58]
I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [16:05]
We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846. I mentioned that you’ve heard this add on Steve’s podcast.
Steve Fretzin [16:18]
Very cool, thanks. So we’ve got the relationships. And we understand we’ve got to develop the ones we have and we’ve got to create new ones, then we’re transitioning to saying hey, not only that, but let’s also network and have relationships with people that are daily, you know, or weekly, yearly, whatever coming in contact with the client problems that we solve? Can you talk through that a little bit?
Yeah, so let in the client problems are, it’s really unique because let’s let’s step back for a second, look at our three elements here of relationships, problems, knowledge, okay, I control the actions and efforts that I take control the relationships are largely influenced the relationships that I have, and the actions that I take the study, personal study, that impacts my knowledge, and so I impact that circle. But when you look at the client problems, that is a circle, so to speak, an area where I actually can’t change that, right, those problems are outside of my ability to control that. But it’s a critical element. So then the question is, what how do I how do I deal with that reality? Because and what I come to that, in my mind is really a few things. Number one, is our job as attorneys is to help discover what those client problems are. And another element to keep in mind is that these client problems, some are regularly occurring. Labor and Employment is a classic example. Right? big corporation, there will be constantly Eleni issues. Banks, I represent banks, and certainly there are, banks will always have a small degree of bad loans now that ebbs and flows with the economic cycle. So there’s regular recurring problems, but then there’s also clients with one time big problems are rare problems. So you need to be thinking about what problems am I going to be solving. And then you need to realize as well, that client problems actually change with the market, as laws change, as maybe new management, new business focus comes in, these problems are constantly changing. And so there’s this need to say, Where are the problems that and then be trying to push my circles to be intersected with those with those problems?
Steve Fretzin [18:28]
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I don’t know that people are being as introspective as they need to be around the market and competition and laws. And that can work on two levels. One is that can work on you know, that, you know, follow the problems, right? Speak to the problems, right to the problems in the sense of how your marketing how you’re posting on social media, and drawing people to you, because they see that you solve those problems, and becoming known as a problem solver for those problems. And then the other side of it is how, again, how well branded you are so that you know within your sphere of influence, or even outside of it that people are considering you as that solution person for the problems.
Right. So let me let me give you I think, three examples that I think we’ve really hit home with a lot of people with your listeners here to help them understand when we come to the client problems. The first one was really a clip that a colleague is a partner of mine up in our Chicago office, he and I were talking I don’t know maybe a year ago. And and just to let the listeners know, insolvency, we’re in 2020 2021. It’s been extremely low. I think everybody thought it was going to be really bad with the pandemic. And to everybody’s surprise, it just went to really historic lows. And so I was I was talking with my colleague. He made the quit or somebody mentioned to him he he definitely had the knowledge. He was out there networking really well but he wasn’t getting any results. And then one of his other colleagues said Listen, you’re in a forest in your hunt. Then there aren’t any animals to slay. Yeah, right. And so you have that problem, which is insolvency work was really down, he’s an insolvency attorney as well. And he wasn’t getting work because there weren’t the client problems there. So that’s example number one, if you don’t have all three elements, how it doesn’t work out. So let me give you a second example. So I, as an insolvency attorney, I have dealt with that same problem myself, and, and it’s like, well, I’m networking better than ever before I’m doing this, and I’m expanding my knowledge. But why am I not getting work? It’s because the, the need wasn’t there. And so what I had to do as an attorney was pivot. And so that what I brought was maybe from the distressed debt side have focused on the transactional side, helping other colleagues in my firm on the banking and finance where they’re doing deals on the front end, and I’d be able to spot issues. And so now I was addressing a problem. A third example. And I know I’m being a bit long winded here. But the third example is when we’re looking at these client problems, it’s important to anticipate where is the market headed, there’s an attorney in our firm’s Denver office, and he’s a corporate transactional guy. And years ago, he could just see that there was going to be this big push towards cannabis. And so he’s devoted his, and he could see this client problem on the horizon. He and so he focused his networking has knowledge, really in that area, and has become really a national leader in in the cannabis space. So it’s important that we be thinking about these problems and then working to address
Steve Fretzin [21:36]
them. Yeah, that’s really great. And I love the pivot. And so that’s why the real estate attorneys who have been killing it, especially residential, killing it for the last two years, now that things are slowing down, interest rates are up. They’re saying, hey, you know what, maybe I should have I should have been doing this all along. But you know, I have to lean into estate planning, or I have to lean into commercial real estate or I have to lean into, you know, some other areas to pivot or if you’re at a full service firm, we’re talking about cross marketing, right? How can we bring in business and feed it out to others? And again, that may not help our billable hour, but it certainly is going to keep us busy and productive versus just you know, what was me? Yeah, so we’ve got the relationship side, we’ve got the client problem side, what’s the last piece?
So the last piece is the knowledge the problems that you solve? And I think it’s important that we, and this is a broad generalization. But when we think about it, it’s it’s what problems do I as an attorney, help those in my network solve? So obviously, for me personally, if it’s distressed agricultural loans, I can handle that. Personally, one area, another way that I’ve done it is, you know, I’ve become licensed, I’m actually licensed in five different states, I’ve done that deliberately. Because being here in the heart of the Midwest, I see clients have a need in these different states, so I can seamlessly move into different states. That’s another way of expanding my ability to solve problems. Let me give you another example, though, that I think will really resonate with listeners, I’m not an IP attorney. And I do have a client that when we they engaged us, I don’t know, six months ago, the very first thing they did was they had an IP problem, well, I don’t have that skill set that’s not within my knowledge. And so when we look at those intersecting circles, I wasn’t able to get the legal work. The Fortunately, I have a very strong IP department at my firm. And so by making that connection, bringing in one of our IP attorneys connecting it with the client, and now we’ve got that Trifecta client problem, network and the knowledge and so even though I personally don’t have the knowledge on how to solve that problem, I can expand, so to speak my circle of knowledge by looping in my colleague, who then can do the work. So I think it’s important we think about this Knowledge Circle through that lens.
Steve Fretzin [23:57]
And I think a lot of attorneys think of, of the eye, not the Wii, especially at a mid market or a larger firm. And that’s absolutely the key to success in business development at the mid market at the full service firms, is thinking about the way that it isn’t just the problems you solve. It’s the problems we solve. And the idea that you can bring in business and feed it out to successful knowledgeable expert attorneys that work with you. And by the way, you get the origination, they do the work. I don’t see the harm or the foul there. It’s only good for everybody.
It’s great for everybody. And and I’ll say there’s this added benefit. One of the things that I’ve really come to enjoy over the years, especially in the last few years in my work at the firm is this ability to collaboratively work with my colleagues on different issues where maybe I individually can do it my partner individually, he or she can’t do it. But collectively we can actually solve this problem. And it’s been great because I work with great attorneys, we’re able to get great results. For clients, and and everybody benefits, it’s something I just really enjoyed my work.
Steve Fretzin [25:05]
Yeah, well, I think the formula is in don’t take this the wrong way, because I’m the isn’t rocket science guy, you know, it isn’t complex, you’ve made things incredibly simple and easy to understand. And if lawyers can just put those three circles in their mind and where they intersect and and just think about it in that simple way, I think it’s going to benefit a lot of them that are struggling with what is the formula to being successful in growing a law practice. And then I’ve got my own ways of explaining it. But I think what you put together here is really brilliant.
Yeah, and I’d say one thing that I’ve done personally, and I’ve suggest this for other readers or listeners, is it take a quiet moment, you know, I’ll take two, three hours, maybe on a Saturday morning or something, and then I’ll diagram these three different circles. And then I’ll say, Who are my networks? How do I need to improve my relationships? What do I need to do to improve my knowledge base? Where are the client problems? When you start thinking about your practice, specifically, you start getting ideas that come and I give you one example. That’s something that’s really benefited me. Several years ago, I made a very deliberate decision that I wanted to represent distressed lenders and or lenders dealing with distress debts, excuse me. And so what I did is I put a really big focus on studying that out and developing knowledge and speaking now I don’t know that I’ve been able to get a lot of business from like presentations per se, the what happened was by focusing on the knowledge that created a lot of personal knowledge and confidence that I had. And so then when I was interacting and working with my existing network, they could sense this real confidence coming from me, because I’ve spoken about it. I’ve written about it, I really knew my stuff. And so I was solidifying or strengthening that trust so that when they have those problems, while law, you’ve got that trifecta, and there was work, so yeah, really great.
Steve Fretzin [27:04]
Really great. Well, Mike, if people want to get in touch with you to network, if people want to get in touch with you to hear more about this formula, you know, just throw business your way. All of the above what what are some of the ways that they can reach you?
Sure thing, so all you need to do is just do a Google search for Husch Blackwell or Michael fielding Husch. Blackwell, you could also look on LinkedIn, Michael D, fielding LinkedIn, I’ll be the first one that’ll pop up. And I’d be happy to chat with you.
Steve Fretzin [27:30]
Yeah, well, I really appreciate it in your game changing book is one that we haven’t had on the show so far. And it’s sort of when I saw it, I went yeah, that’s that’s definitely a book that I could see Mike reading and taking ownership called deep work. So what is deep work? I’ve heard that book before that you may have even mentioned it to me before.
Yeah, so deep work is a book written by a fella by the name of Cal Newport. He is a computer science professor at it. And always in Washington, DC at one of the universities out there, that his big focus is that if you look at people that really make gram changing developments in their respective professions, there’s always this element of really deep, concentrated focused effort. And I listened to the book several years ago, actually listened to the three different times of go out riding bikes, or jogging or whatnot. But it’s had a really profound impact, because it’s made me realize that for me to really do substantive, meaningful work to really help clients, I have to everyday be putting in some deep, focused, concentrated effort. And that’s made it just a really important profound difference in my practice,
Steve Fretzin [28:36]
and I’m sure that book talks to and I’ve never read it, but I’m assuming it talks to, you know, removing distraction and trying to do deep work and knock out you know, a file or an article or whatever you’re doing, while your phone is next to you while your email is chiming. While LinkedIn is pinging, probably not going to be helpful for deep work,
I’ll ask you’re spot on to kind of Cal Newports big pet peeves is cut out the distractions just have this deep, you know, focus for two hours or whatever, and just knock it out. And you will find that the level of productivity, the quality of work that you do is just tremendously improve. And that’s important for clients.
Steve Fretzin [29:15]
Yeah, my son will pop his head into my office on a Saturday morning, when he gets up at 10. Or whenever he gets up. I’m up at you know, 6am and I’m writing an article and he pops and he looks I can just see him creeping the door open, like creaking the door open, like three inches looking at me, he sees me in that zone, where I’m typing, and I’m working and I’m focused, and he closed that door and gets the heck out of there. Because he knows, like, don’t disturb the guy who’s who’s in that in that zone. And that deep work, so I totally get it. Well, Mike, Mike, this has been a pleasure. I you know, you and I think I’ve built a really strong relationship over the last couple of years since we’ve worked together and, and I just hope that that continues and I want to continue to be your friend, your advocate and you know, anything I can do to help you. You know, I’m there for you, buddy.
Thank you very much. I
Steve Fretzin [29:58]
appreciate that. And hey, Everybody again Holy crap, you know look Mike was so kind to come in share, not call it a revelation we can call it wisdom we can call it a formula but really really great stuff to simplify business development in a way that I think works for him and I think would really make sense and work for you. So we’ll try to put some of this stuff I’m going to try to see if I can put your your formula image in our show notes I’m going to figure out a way to do that so maybe a link or something that we can we can send people to but I’ll work that out. But everybody listen, it’s all about helping you be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for drilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes