Michael Liebowitz: Articulation in Marketing and Business Development

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Liebowitz discuss:

  • Behavioral neurology and how it relates to business development.
  • Understanding your business identity and your identity in your business.
  • Belief alignment, story connection, and the message you are conveying.
  • Talking about the money and criteria for success early in the discovery process.

Key Takeaways:

  • All businesses are personal, all great businesses are very personal.
  • The biggest mistake businesses of all sizes make is talking about what they do, and not what it means.
  • Start with the outcome, then follow it up with the belief system.
  • You need to talk about your business in a way that makes people want to work with you.

“We are excellent BS detectors. And what I mean by BS is Belief System. We learn this at a very young age. We intuitively know when someone is saying something they don’t really believe.” —  Michael Liebowitz

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Episode References: 

About Michael Liebowitz: Michael creates messages that make more money. Lots of business owners struggle finding that one, perfect message that grabs attention, differentiates, and inspires people to want to work with them. My clients hire me to find theirs. He works with consultants and founders to get them saying all the right things in their marketing, networking conversations, and sales calls that generate more business.

The result:

Landing more of their ideal clients faster

Website and marketing is converting

Networking conversations produce results

Sales cycle is shorter

Connect with Michael Liebowitz: 

Website: https://www.mindmagnetizer.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeljliebowitz/

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LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

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Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hello, everyone. Have you ever wondered how much more business you could be generating each month? Well, you can take the Be That Lawyer challenge to find out. If I’m unable to help you find the money that’s been evading you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for the time invested together. Just go to Fretzin.

[00:00:15] Steve Fretzin: com to sign up. I’m challenging you. Now enjoy the show.

[00:00:23] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host.

[00:00:45] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin and this is my announcer voice you’re listening to. So I hope you’re enjoying that. We’re going to switch over to the interview voice in just a moment. Uh, if you’re hearing the show for the first time, welcome, welcome. If you’re, if you’re a longtime listener, thank you so much.

[00:01:00] Steve Fretzin: If you love this show, and that’s our greatest hope that you do, please give us a thumbs up, a five star, a this, that, and the other, and tell people about it. We want to keep this thing going as strong as it’s been, and continue to bring you the value each and every week, twice a week. Uh, today is absolutely no different.

[00:01:16] Steve Fretzin: I’ve got Michael Wade in the wings. How you doing, Michael?

[00:01:18] Michael Liebowitz: Doing very well, Steve Banks. How are you? You gonna rock it today? Gonna rock it. Absolutely. Gonna rock it. All right. Good, good. But Monday, what else is there to do on a Monday?

[00:01:26] Steve Fretzin: That is a great point. That is a great point. Well, I’ll tell you what’s new.

[00:01:29] Steve Fretzin: Uh, my son He’s already demolished my wife’s car having his license for a few months. He just blew out my tire going over a curb. So I got to hit him when he gets home for a nice 500. No, he’s

[00:01:39] Michael Liebowitz: authorized a passage and it’s good to get them done with earlier in the process. Okay, I like

[00:01:43] Steve Fretzin: your, you have a very good mindset about it.

[00:01:45] Steve Fretzin: Will you mind having the conversation with him about the fact that he owes me 500? Sure. Okay, cool.

[00:01:51] Michael Liebowitz: You know what? He’s your dad. Pay him whenever.

[00:01:54] Steve Fretzin: Oh, man. All right. I’m a pretty good delegator, but I may need to coach you a little bit on how to handle that teenager conversation. Are you thinking of going?

[00:02:02] Steve Fretzin: May have been a, may have been a misstep there. Hey, as we, before we get into introducing Michael, I want to just share his, his, um, quote of the show, which is all good businesses are personal. The best businesses are very personal. And that’s a Mark Cuban special. So talk to us a little bit about that and welcome.

[00:02:19] Michael Liebowitz: Uh, good to be here. Yes. That is a very insightful quote. Uh, one of the few sort of high profile billionaires out there that

[00:02:27] Steve Fretzin: is modeling good behavior is Mark Cuban. Uh, we know who we are in

[00:02:31] Michael Liebowitz: contrast with on that one. So, uh, yes, all this, the whole saying that, no, it’s not, it’s not personal. It’s business is completely wrong.

[00:02:38] Michael Liebowitz: All business is personal. It is just a function of people doing people things. It’s all personal. And my background being behavioral neurology and linguistics has taught me that the way that we, as just people in the world, but also in a business context, customers and clients. The way that we relate to a business is really on that personal level, and this is on a neurological level.

[00:03:03] Michael Liebowitz: This is not sort of metaphor. This is the part of our brain that actually wants to say yes or no to something operates on that personality. I might be confronted with so yeah, all this is is our personal. And all great businesses are really personal, but the more they can get into that personhood, uh, the better off because our neurology is just going to

[00:03:24] Steve Fretzin: respond to it.

[00:03:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and then, you know, this all comes down to, you know, a big part of what we talk about in the show, which is relationships, developing relationships, honing in and keeping and sustaining and retaining relationships. And that just continues to come up time and time again, which is right in line with what you’re sharing there.

[00:03:39] Steve Fretzin: Um, Michael Liebowitz is the principal at Magnetic Mind Studio. And, um, I, where we, we met at a, um, is it provisors? Yes. Probably provisors. Yeah. Shout out to provisors. We love our provisors. 8, 700 members nationally. Uh, check out a free commercial for provisors, everybody, if you’re interested in a national networking local and, and also national networking, uh, with other business professionals.

[00:04:03] Steve Fretzin: Great way to go. Give us a little bit of your background leading into your, be that lawyer tipping point.

[00:04:09] Michael Liebowitz: At this tender age of 56, looking back at my history of life, you know, how did I get here? I realized not too long ago, in fact, that my journey here actually started in the first grade of all places.

[00:04:22] Michael Liebowitz: Six years old, that was my first experience in the realm of teasing, being teased and seeing other kids get teased. Not that I did it too much because I did not understand it. It just did not register for me. Uh, particularly when someone else was getting teased. That, wait, what they said or did, whatever, it’s them, it, even at that age, I was sort of like a live and let live, like, you got your thing, I got mine, even though, at six years old, you don’t have the emotional maturity to make sense of much of anything other than Saturday morning cartoons, but, I do look back and notice like, you know, that’s when this sort of first manifested itself, this idea of just relationships.

[00:05:04] Michael Liebowitz: Here’s the thing, that teasing, I think that was the moment it really sparked, um, this question that I’ve had my entire life, which is, How do people understand and get along with each other? Um, and it wasn’t until much later in life, decades later, at around

[00:05:19] Steve Fretzin: the age of late 30s, early 40s, that I discovered a methodology called Neurolinguistic Programming, which is the source code for this is how our neurology is set up to

[00:05:31] Michael Liebowitz: get along with each other, to understand each other, and also ourselves.

[00:05:35] Michael Liebowitz: And then over the years, add to that a bunch of other methodologies that have their own three letter acronyms and other names. Neo Reichian technique, and Ericksonian language pattern, and linguistics, all this stuff. This whole suit of things that I just went on a decade long tear into understanding, even ended up being a volunteer teacher at some of these places.

[00:05:55] Michael Liebowitz: Uh, I collectively, I call that behavioral neurology. Why? Because it’s all about the neurology of how we behave in our, in our life. Well, that

[00:06:03] Steve Fretzin: was, but that’s a, that’s a big part of, of not only relationships, but also, you know, talking about business development and networking. It’s a huge part of it, right?

[00:06:12] Michael Liebowitz: Massive part of it. All of that, business development, networking, it all redounds to one thing. How do you and I get along? How do we understand each other? And how do we, in the case of business, work together? It’s all that one to one personal level. No matter what the scale of business is, at some point it comes down to that one to one level.

[00:06:34] Steve Fretzin: And I don’t know who, I don’t know who came up with this, Michael, but I’m going to say something that when I was growing up, it was treat people the way you want to be treated. And what I think you’re saying is treat people the way they want to be treated. And communicate with them in a way that’s going to be It’s a combination

[00:06:48] Michael Liebowitz: of both,

[00:06:48] Steve Fretzin: actually.

[00:06:49] Steve Fretzin: Okay, okay.

[00:06:50] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah, when you understand Well, here’s the thing to understand. Let me just baseline the whole thing for you. All right. The way that we say yes to anything, this is business context or any other context of life. The way that we say yes to anything, the first thing that our brain does is we’re looking for a like kind match.

[00:07:08] Michael Liebowitz: Are you like me? Right? Because if you’re like me, this parts are the parts of our brain that do this sort of stuff. You are survivable. If you are not like me, you are a potential threat to survival. This is just basic neurology. Who are you going to do work with? Who are you going to get along with? The one who’s survivable or the one that might eat your face off, right?

[00:07:31] Michael Liebowitz: It’s, it’s not a mystery, right? And so in a business context, that whole thing, you know, Them versus, am I like them or am I, first you have to know in a business context who you are, what’s your identity in the business, what is the business identity, once you know that, then you can very more, much more strategically and effectively say to the world, this is who we are.

[00:07:58] Michael Liebowitz: Two things happen from that. Number one, you now know who you’re going to target. Who should I be looking for for business? Why? Because they’re going to be like you. Survival.

[00:08:09] Steve Fretzin: So I should be looking for incredibly handsome men? Yes, exactly. First thing

[00:08:13] Michael Liebowitz: I was going to say for you, this is your perspective. So where do people like me hang out?

[00:08:18] Michael Liebowitz: Like, and there’s a, I know that sounds trite. There’s a whole like scaling and onion involved there, but just, let’s look at the surface. Now we all just got a little bit of time. So where are the people who are like me who are going to resonate with who I am? Where are they hanging out? I’ll go market there.

[00:08:33] Michael Liebowitz: That’s where the most yeses are. Uh, number two, when you communicate in this level, you start attracting the people who are like you, um, they see them. They see themselves in you. Here’s the thing. You know, that saying people don’t buy what you do. They buy you not true or why you do it. You, they don’t even buy why you do it.

[00:08:51] Michael Liebowitz: What we buy is the reflection of ourselves. We see in you. Wow.

[00:08:56] Steve Fretzin: That’s deep works

[00:08:57] Michael Liebowitz: for, for services where we’re working with the human. It also works with, uh, uh, products in a really interesting and weird kind of way. But I guarantee if in your mind’s eye, you walk into your kitchen, you pull open the drawer, you pull out that spatula.

[00:09:10] Michael Liebowitz: You bought the spatula that was most aligned with your identity because it was the most

[00:09:13] Steve Fretzin: survivable spatula that

[00:09:14] Michael Liebowitz: you saw in the store.

[00:09:16] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and there’s a lot of, a lot of spatula’s out there, so.

[00:09:19] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah, yeah, for some reason you pick the spatula that most masked your

[00:09:23] Steve Fretzin: identity. So, but is this, Michael, is this why so many business professionals struggle with their, with how they represent their business, whether it’s on their website, whether it’s in their infomercial at a networking event, because they don’t really know their identity, they don’t really know what their business should be about or is about.

[00:09:40] Michael Liebowitz: One hundred percent. Okay. And I’m glad we got off spatulas.

[00:09:43] Steve Fretzin: Um. Oh, we’re coming back to spatulas. Oh, we’re coming. Okay.

[00:09:47] Michael Liebowitz: Fantastic. That’s coming. That’s going to be the CTA at the end of this. Um, yes, absolutely. The biggest mistake most business owners make of any kind of any scale, even the big five, like Fortune 500 do this, they just have money to throw at the problem.

[00:10:01] Michael Liebowitz: Um, is they talk about, this is what I do. These are the things. Right. Like I say, I’ll introduce this frame. People don’t buy your thing. They buy what your thing means to them. And the meaning comes down to identity. So, yeah, we’re talking about, this is what I do. And since this is a lawyer centric frame, we’ll just use that.

[00:10:22] Michael Liebowitz: We say things like, I’m an IP attorney. Right? Or I do a defense. Litigation. I’m a real estate, the thing, right? Yeah. Well, you just got lumped in with the other a hundred people in your, or

[00:10:35] Steve Fretzin: more in your Metro

[00:10:36] Michael Liebowitz: area that do the exact same thing. Great. Now, why should I choose you? Well, that’s the question.

[00:10:42] Steve Fretzin: But I provide, I provide great service.

[00:10:44] Steve Fretzin: Everyone provides great.

[00:10:47] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah. If you’re, if you’re, if you’re leaning on, I provide great service. Here’s what you’re saying to your audience that. You’re doing the minimum and you should be grateful for it. Yeah, I’m I’m gonna do the bare minimum I’m gonna provide you with great service Yeah Who in their right mind goes to the place when they have a choice not to that delivers awful service

[00:11:08] Steve Fretzin: TJ Maxx Get the max for the minimum.

[00:11:11] Michael Liebowitz: That’s right. All right, just putting out the now. Now we’re now. Yes, cable companies can give us the worst because there are a regulated monopoly and we only get one choice. That’s why.

[00:11:20] Steve Fretzin: Right, right. Race to the bottom there. Right. But, but I get it. And I, and what I want to work on with you in the next 20 minutes is really the understanding of how, how do we flip the switch?

[00:11:31] Steve Fretzin: What are the things that you’re working on with your clients and working on with, with the folks in your networks that are helping them? So. Okay. I mean, what should people be saying that actually generates interest and generates business and generates the relationships that, that they need to make their business successful?

[00:11:47] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah. Okay. So now we’re going into the full neurology piece and I’m going to condense it down. I’ll just put the caveat of if any of your listeners are really interested in the full, like learning how this neurology works. I can fully share that with you with, I have some, uh, uh, workshops that we could talk about later.

[00:12:03] Michael Liebowitz: But here’s, here’s the nutshell of the whole thing. Our brains are looking for two pieces of information from any business. Number one, what’s the main outcome I get from working with you? Quickly about outcomes. This was a quote from Theodore Leavitt, Harvard business school professor from back in the day who said, people don’t want

[00:12:23] Steve Fretzin: a quarter inch drill.

[00:12:24] Steve Fretzin: What they want

[00:12:25] Michael Liebowitz: is a quarter inch hole. So everyone’s talking about the drill. I’m at this attorney. I’m at this kind of attorney. That’s the drill. You should be talking about what’s the main outcome that you provide to your clients. That’s the hole. I once worked with an IP attorney. I bring this one up a lot.

[00:12:42] Michael Liebowitz: Who’s it? I’m an IP attorney. I protect X, Y, and Z. Well, every IP attorney does that, right? In conversation, we found out where his identity is wrapped up in, right? What his mind is really onto when he’s in his work is it’s not about the protection. It’s about the money. It’s about saying you deserve to reap the biggest reward possible from your IP.

[00:13:06] Michael Liebowitz: I’m the guy you come to to do that. It’s a money message, right? So the outcome is Basically, you work with me, and we’re gonna get the most money possible for you. Yeah. Along the way, we’re gonna protect it, of course, but it’s about the money. Specifically, the frame we used was, you know, the, the law acts like a filter that determines how much money you get from your IP.

[00:13:29] Michael Liebowitz: I set the filter so that you get the most money possible. That’s a different message. That’s a really differentiating message for an IP attorney and, and really speaks to the person whose identity is like, yeah, I want money, right? Not protection. So that’s number one. What’s the main outcome? Number two, what do you believe

[00:13:46] Steve Fretzin: is true about the work you do?

[00:13:48] Steve Fretzin: This doesn’t have to be

[00:13:48] Michael Liebowitz: profound. I once worked with a client. Uh, they make, uh, cooking gadgets. The belief system underlining that business is it’s fun to show off. Do they make spatulas? No spatulas involved. Okay. I thought I had you there. All right. I know, right? It’s fun to show off. Well, that turned into a message of, hey, do you want to be the star of the dinner party?

[00:14:06] Michael Liebowitz: Right? For their cooking gadgets and such like that. So it does not be profound. It just has to be true for your business. Here’s the thing about beliefs, the part of our brain that’s making that threat survival, not survivable decision. All it really wants to know is do we share the same beliefs or at least do your beliefs.

[00:14:26] Michael Liebowitz: Align enough with mine that, you know, they’re not a violation of my criteria of survival. Okay? Yeah. This is why the NRA is not inviting some lefty liberal to come give a talk at their national convention. The belief alignment’s not there. Threat goes up. Right? Right. Right. So, there you are as a business.

[00:14:44] Michael Liebowitz: The two things you need to communicate almost right away is, here’s the main outcome and here’s what we believe is true.

[00:14:50] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I love that. I just, I just think it’s not being It’s not being taught. It’s not being done. It’s not, it’s not coming out. And so what ends up happening is, you know, 30 people in a room all saying, I’m a, you know, an estate planning attorney.

[00:15:02] Steve Fretzin: We do estates, we do trusts, we do wills, we do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Everybody’s looking at their phones within about 30 seconds. And they’re not conveying the message that’s going to say. Holy crap, I, I have three kids, I don’t have an estate plan, my world’s going to come to an end if something happens to me, it’s like driving around without car insurance, they need, but that’s not being conveyed.

[00:15:24] Michael Liebowitz: Yes, absolutely. When you talk about the things you do, it connects to the part of the brain that has very

[00:15:30] Steve Fretzin: little to do with the decision to

[00:15:32] Michael Liebowitz: work with you or not. Yet, that’s where we spend most of our time. Yeah. So let me show you how to connect to the part of the brain that’s actually

[00:15:38] Steve Fretzin: making the decision.

[00:15:39] Steve Fretzin: I call it the critter brain.

[00:15:41] Michael Liebowitz: That’s the part that really wants to know a belief, um, and the outcome. I once worked with a estate, you want, you brought up estate planning, I’ll give you a specific example for estate planning. They were doing the same thing, like, I have estate, we do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

[00:15:57] Michael Liebowitz: Turns out, they had a very heartfelt message or belief system behind why estate planning? Why not be any other kind of lawyer? Why not be an airline pilot or a chef? Why this for you? You came into this business because of a belief system you have. You need to find it, you need to express it. And for this person, it was, An estate plan is how you continue to care for the people you love when you’re no longer around to care for them.

[00:16:23] Michael Liebowitz: That’s a much different message than saying, I’m an estate planner, I’ll do these things. It’s a message about caring for people. And anyone whose map of reality aligns with that, like, who are, whose identity is around how much I care for this family, I am the rock of this family, they are, I provide for these people.

[00:16:46] Michael Liebowitz: And I will always provide for them. When they hear that message, they go, you, you get me. We see the reflection of ourselves. We see in you, they saw their own reflection and the trust level goes

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[00:18:34] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I think about me, the way I talk about who I’m looking to meet.

[00:18:39] Steve Fretzin: Is, you know, ambitious attorneys, open minded attorneys, and I’m, you know, as ambitious a person as, as I know, right? And I’m, I’m open minded to whatever, if there’s a good idea, I’m going to borrow it, steal it, take it, you know, change it, whatever. And I think I am looking for those people, and I think I, I, I make an effort to put that out into the ether with the hope that those people are going to find me and that we can do what you’re saying, which is that, that, like, perfect connection where we just feel, you know, hey, together we can do this, together we can be so powerful.

[00:19:09] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah. The real question there, if I can just, you don’t have to answer this, but the question is what do you mean by ambitious? It’s a little, the, the scale of that framing.

[00:19:17] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Is it too big? Yeah. So you might want to hungry to grow hungry, to learn hungry, to make the most out of the time that we have. You know, we have a limited amount of time.

[00:19:30] Michael Liebowitz: Notice how, when you hear the word ambition, what you do is because the scale is too big meaning of ambition. It invites people to apply their own meaning to it, right?

[00:19:42] Steve Fretzin: When you say, I work with

[00:19:43] Michael Liebowitz: hungry attorneys, they’re hungry for knowledge, they’re hungry for growth, and they’re hungry to making the most out of their time here.

[00:19:52] Michael Liebowitz: And they, they want to grab, they want to get there now and fast, right? Yeah. That narrows down what you mean by ambition, and those are things that people are more likely to refer, to understand about themselves, that identity, that they can see the reflection you are presenting that they can see of themselves.

[00:20:09] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah,

[00:20:10] Steve Fretzin: so I’m saying that out loud to a group of people at a networking event, for example, and that they’re hearing words that resonate with them that, hey, I’m like that, Steve just said that. Yeah. And now I’m on, I’m on a, I’m on a better track.

[00:20:23] Michael Liebowitz: Exactly. Okay. And I’ve worked with plenty of attorneys who are not that person and the message they’ll hear it and they won’t eat, but they are ambitious, but not in that

[00:20:34] Steve Fretzin: way.

[00:20:34] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Right. They’re ambitious. They’re ambitious to build more hours. And that’s not what I’m, you know, that, that, that I don’t want to help them. Yeah. Their business, but it’s like

[00:20:42] Michael Liebowitz: we’re about I want to help more people, right? That’s what they’re ambitious about, right? I need to change the conversation around this frame in my business.

[00:20:51] Michael Liebowitz: That’s what they’re ambitious about, right? So they’re not going to, they’re going to hear your message like, that’s great. Go get them. And they’re not going to waste your time by giving you a call and saying, Hey, I want to do X, Y, and Z. And it’s not going to be a good fit. Meanwhile, the people who are a good fit, just they, you just 11 on their map of reality.

[00:21:09] Michael Liebowitz: Right? Like. Holy crap. I got to start working with Steve.

[00:21:12] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really, really great stuff. So, so I think we’re getting to something and you’re already working me through my junk, right? And nice job, by the way. P. S. Nice job. That being said, in a more general way, how are lawyers then to use this to improve their business, improve their networking, get more value for the time that they put out there?

[00:21:31] Steve Fretzin: For lawyers.

[00:21:32] Michael Liebowitz: I say, start with the outcome first, right? Follow it up with the belief system. The outcome’s a little bit easier to come by too. Um, it’s like, really do a self analysis. You know, that’s why lawyers and other people hire me is because they need help with figuring this stuff out. But the first thing to do is like, okay, what kind of lawyer are you?

[00:21:51] Michael Liebowitz: I’m a this lawyer. Great. What’s the outcome someone actually

[00:21:54] Steve Fretzin: gets let’s let’s say it said let’s say it’s personal injury. They get it They get a you know, the largest reward possible award

[00:22:00] Michael Liebowitz: possible. Okay, so that’s a money message, right? What’s the outcome is the largest reward possible now for other injury attorneys?

[00:22:09] Michael Liebowitz: It’s gonna be all about fairness You got hurt someone done you dirty. This is about restoring fairness fairness is can be calculated in money and often is because So it’s how you frame it, right? Other personal attorney lawyers are going to have their own, like, this is what matters to me about this, right?

[00:22:30] Michael Liebowitz: But is it

[00:22:31] Steve Fretzin: about what matters to them or is it about what it matters to the, uh, to the people they want to get or does it have to be this aligned? It is alignment. Yes. That’s really the key then. So it’s

[00:22:41] Michael Liebowitz: very much the key. So I’m going to, we’re starting with outcomes, but I want to talk a little bit about beliefs because this matters.

[00:22:51] Michael Liebowitz: The person with the strongest belief wins. Let me give you an example, and you’ll know this. If the child believes they deserve that piece of candy more than their parent believes they don’t, guess who’s getting candy? Right? So in any situation, the person with the strongest belief wins. Here’s why that happens neurologically.

[00:23:11] Michael Liebowitz: If I’m not really holding onto a position very tightly, and someone else is, I will naturally go onto their map of reality. Because I’m more flexible. In that situation. Right?

[00:23:22] Steve Fretzin: So the fact that my son’s going to pay the 500 for the replace the tire. That’s iron clad. Like he made them as long as you believe it is.

[00:23:30] Steve Fretzin: Oh, it’s I believe it and it’s happening. Right? Like, there’s no question. We’re giving him a break on the 6, 000 in damage to my wife’s car a month ago. So he’s already getting one break, but that’s it. Right? From here on. It’s on him.

[00:23:42] Michael Liebowitz: If we are excellent bs detectors. And what I need, my bs is a belief system.

[00:23:48] Michael Liebowitz: We learned this at a very young age. We, we intuitively know when someone is saying something, they don’t really believe it. So if you come to that child and you say, no, you’re, you’re paying me the 500. There is no, there is no way on earth you are getting out of this. Let that sink in. Yeah. Start figuring out the way you’re going to pay this because there is, this is happening and they don’t sense any wiggle room in that.

[00:24:11] Michael Liebowitz: Guess what? They’re going to start

[00:24:12] Steve Fretzin: doing. They’re just, they’re done. They, they, they just did.

[00:24:14] Michael Liebowitz: They know they’re not going to argue. They’re going to negotiate. Yeah. But if the 500 is happening, same thing is true in business. So which is why I like to say you have to figure out what your belief system is.

[00:24:26] Michael Liebowitz: Why did you come to this business? I’m here’s the, here’s the, here’s the real question that there’s a VLP question I use with all my clients. Tell me what you do. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Great. What’s important to you about that? Not your clients to you. What’s important to you about that? We do a couple layers.

[00:24:42] Michael Liebowitz: There’s a belief there. It’s important because, aha, now what good things come to you when you get to have that in the world? This is the

[00:24:50] Steve Fretzin: main outcome, right?

[00:24:51] Michael Liebowitz: Type of thing. Now you can get to an outcome without doing the belief stuff, but if you, it’s a, there’s a better pathway. So for that personal injury attorney, how come What gives you the most charge in the, you know, in a result?

[00:25:04] Michael Liebowitz: Is it the money? Is it the restoring of fairness? Is it something else? What is that for you?

[00:25:10] Steve Fretzin: Just winning, am I right? Could just be winning? We’re winning, right? That might be it. No, I

[00:25:16] Michael Liebowitz: just like, I like, I love the game. I like to win the game, and I do everything to win the game. To someone else, whose own belief system is aligned with that, who wants that same outcome, Oh, you just became the, the rockstar in their world.

[00:25:29] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, so, you ask me, is it about your belief, or your outcome, or their outcome? It is both. You start with yours, cause

[00:25:37] Steve Fretzin: you gotta be Yeah, and I love that, gotta be

[00:25:39] Michael Liebowitz: willing. Yeah. Your, your message attracts the right client. You don’t massage your message to the client because you don’t know what their belief system is.

[00:25:51] Michael Liebowitz: You don’t go out there I like it to go into a party. You don’t go to a party and say who hey, who should I be? So that you’ll like me. Ooh, that’s an icky conversation. You are disingenuous. There’s no one having fun there We go to the party and we say this is who I am And we get along with some people and we don’t get along with others be that person

[00:26:10] Steve Fretzin: be that lawyer How about that?

[00:26:13] Steve Fretzin: Be that lawyer. I just worked it in. Right there. Hey, so, so, all right. So, we’re, we’re aligning beliefs. We’re sharing outcomes. We’re doing all these things. Yeah. How did that change someone, a prospective client, for example, saying, you know, this sounds great. I’ll think about it. I’ll let you know, which is kind of a blow off to, hey, I want to work with you, man.

[00:26:32] Steve Fretzin: You, you are, you are, you have the juice that I’m looking to, to, you know, to, to get an outcome with. Yeah.

[00:26:38] Michael Liebowitz: So in that conversation, um, when you know what your belief system is, you know what your outcome is and, uh, and some other things that I work with my clients, everyone knows the fundamentals of a sales conversation.

[00:26:50] Michael Liebowitz: You build some

[00:26:50] Steve Fretzin: rapport, a little bit


[00:26:51] Michael Liebowitz: time on that. You ask the questions like the discovery stuff, what are you looking for? You spend your most of your time there. Then we start talking about, uh, uh, how you can solve their problem, right? Based on what they said. And then there’s the ask, right? It’s a generally speaking, the

[00:27:06] Steve Fretzin: framework of sales.

[00:27:07] Steve Fretzin: Sales free selling is a little stronger than that, but okay, keep going. Right.

[00:27:10] Michael Liebowitz: Right. Exactly. In between, after you get their discovery, I call it the belief transition. I’ve had many sales professionals tell me, Oh my God, this is what I do. I just didn’t

[00:27:19] Steve Fretzin: know I was doing

[00:27:20] Michael Liebowitz: it. At that moment, that’s when you tell them your belief system, right?

[00:27:25] Michael Liebowitz: This is what you, this is what you say. I’ll give you an example and see if I can come up with a, uh, a lawyer. One, let’s use the IP attorney again, right? Sure. So when you know, you’re the belief system is the law acts like a filter. That determines how much money you can get. Alright, that’s the belief. So, again, does that be profound?

[00:27:47] Michael Liebowitz: So in that discovery phase, since you know you want to get them to the shared belief, that’s the first biggest yes you’re going to get when they align with that belief. In the discovery, you can, okay, you’re not in a court of law lawyers, this is a sales conversation, you can lead the witness here. So you know you can front load some of your questions at discovery about, okay, so what’s the monetary goal for this?

[00:28:09] Michael Liebowitz: You can start talking about the money. Get them in the frame of thinking about money. You’re going to ask them about the other things, right? What’s your criteria for success? Other things like that, right? But you get them, like lead them to the money sort of stuff. Then when you’ve gotten all the discovery, you can set, okay, here’s the deal.

[00:28:24] Michael Liebowitz: Here’s how I operate. The law acts like a filter, okay? That determines how much money you can get for this IP that we’ve been talking about. My job is to set that filter very artfully so that you get the most money. That’s what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about IP. We’re talking about a filter that gets you the most money possible.

[00:28:44] Michael Liebowitz: Sound good to you? That sounds great. Alignment on the belief system. It’s hard to say no to that. It sure is. Yeah. Now, when you talk about, when they want to ask, or when it’s the right time to talk about how you work, everything you talk about from this point on has already been pre framed in terms of a filter that gets you money.

[00:29:04] Michael Liebowitz: First, we’re going to do this. Then we’re going to do this. This is how we begin that filtering, uh, zone. Right? And here’s how we get you to that point of all that, all the money. Now the ask isn’t, do you want my services as an IP attorney? The ask is, and you don’t have to ask it explicitly this way, it’s just the subconscious ask, is, Do you want to have the most money possible from your IP?

[00:29:26] Michael Liebowitz: Yes or no. You’re going to eliminate a lot of maybes. I’ll think about it because the maybes I’ll think about it. Come from two things. Number one, I’m afraid of making the wrong decision. And number two, I don’t know how to differentiate you from anyone

[00:29:42] Steve Fretzin: else that does what you do. So I’m going to spend some time to try to figure out

[00:29:46] Michael Liebowitz: whose cream is going to rise to the top on my map of reality.

[00:29:50] Steve Fretzin: Well, you forgot, you forgot the third one, which is I’m just using you for free advice. So I can go back to my other attorney and have him do this is the

[00:29:57] Michael Liebowitz: worst. I’ve never accounted that i’m not an attorney. So yeah,

[00:30:01] Steve Fretzin: well, I mean, okay, you know, it’s like When you get three quotes on something and you know, you can only work with one But yeah, just this is just so interesting michael And and I just I can’t thank you enough for getting into the weeds and really giving some very constructive Advice to the folks that are listening right now And I do want to wrap up with our game changing podcast your game changing podcast, which is called pivot

[00:30:24] Michael Liebowitz: Well, Pivot has nothing to do with my business.

[00:30:26] Michael Liebowitz: There’s a podcast I really like. Uh, it’s very

[00:30:29] Steve Fretzin: popular. No, that’s okay. It doesn’t have to do with your business. It’s like, yeah, we’re all interested. I’m like, what are the best that people are

[00:30:34] Michael Liebowitz: listening to Pivot? I highly recommend you checking out the co hosts, uh, Kara and Scott, uh, who are actually well known names in their industries.

[00:30:42] Michael Liebowitz: Um, are, have a great rapport with each other. They talk about tech politics and, uh, business. Um, and it’s just so entertaining. They’re very insightful. People are super smart. Sometimes annoying, but in a fun way, but it’s a great podcast. Here’s how I use it. I go for a walk off in the morning. Just to, that’s my exercise.

[00:31:01] Michael Liebowitz: I go for like, like walk, like you’re late for something. That’s my exercise. And I, and I like to listen to podcasts and they’re just a very entertaining. Podcast to listen to. Yeah. It’s, I highly recommend it. That’s, that’s

[00:31:12] Steve Fretzin: half the battle. Like one is educated, entertaining. And the other is, is there something I can learn or take away?

[00:31:17] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. And if that’s ER or just be entertained, that’s okay. And they have guests

[00:31:20] Michael Liebowitz: on. And I often learn a lot from the guests. Like, Ooh, that’s someone I haven’t heard of before. Let me go check out their work. And they’ll have a sub stack or this, we’ll go ahead insights into this business. Uh, X, Y, and Z.

[00:31:31] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah, uh,

[00:31:32] Steve Fretzin: it’s a it’s just lots of fun really cool. Really cool. Hey, everybody’s we’re wrapping up. Want to just take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course, law Maddox, who’s just adding a lot of value. I use law Maddox. They just crush it on how I get my contracts automated, how I get my marketing automated.

[00:31:47] Steve Fretzin: It adds on to a lot of the, uh, the practice management softwares that exist, of course, gets get get staffed up, uh, you know, helping you to get that virtual assistant, that full time entity that doesn’t take up your, your, uh, Insurance and your 401k money. Just, uh, just working to help you grow and of course, get visible.

[00:32:05] Steve Fretzin: It was just helping you on the digital, just crushing it on, on helping you be the best marketers you can be. Michael, um, thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about what you do. They want to just talk to you about helping them with their business. What’s the best way for them to reach you?

[00:32:19] Michael Liebowitz: So the best way to reach me, uh, I’m always open to a connection on LinkedIn does mention the podcast. Okay. But the best way to really connect, if you go onto the website, mindmagnetizer. com, you’ll see everything’s geared towards, I do a monthly workshop. The workshop is all about messaging and how, how do you talk about your business and how do you articulate your value?

[00:32:41] Michael Liebowitz: I like to say like friends don’t let friends do any marketing until they talk to Michael first because you know, marketing is about getting the word out. I answer the question, this is what the word should be in the first place. Yeah. Uh, so in that workshop, uh, like you experienced in this thing, there’s a lot of actionable things I deliver.

[00:33:00] Michael Liebowitz: I, I never want to have an experience with someone where they don’t have a takeaway that they can implement in their business right away. That’s part of my ethos in mind. You and

[00:33:07] Steve Fretzin: I, you and I are, so that’s where we are aligned, right? That’s where we align. That’s well, one of the, one of the many ways. Yeah.

[00:33:15] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think I’m, I think I’m planning on being there too, Michael. Yes,

[00:33:18] Michael Liebowitz: I think you are. Yeah. Fantastic. Uh, action takers need only apply, right? Anyway, uh, check out the workshop. If you really want to get deep into my world and learn this stuff so they can benefit you right away, that’s the workshop.

[00:33:33] Michael Liebowitz: Otherwise, if you just want to see a casual, Hey, hello, just get connected. Uh, connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m not super active on LinkedIn though. So, okay.

[00:33:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, we’re going to have all of that in the show notes, but just thank you so much. I mean, I have a lot of different guests on the show, obviously, and there’s certain topics that just kid me the right way.

[00:33:51] Steve Fretzin: And I just get into it. I’m a bit of a nerd, a bit of a geek around stuff like you are. Um, that’s even before we talk about cats, which, you know, we both like, right? Yeah, I

[00:33:59] Michael Liebowitz: have to be honest. No, I just have, I, we have two new kittens in the house. Oh, that’s right.

[00:34:04] Steve Fretzin: Yes. Everybody’s going, ah, you know, right. But it’s just a lot of fun.

[00:34:09] Steve Fretzin: And it’s, it’s, for me, it’s the most interesting part of running a business is the creativity of developing that infomercial, developing your LinkedIn persona, you know, targeting all that. I get into that stuff. Like, yeah. How do you

[00:34:23] Michael Liebowitz: talk about your business in a way that makes the right people go? I want to have, I want to work with you.

[00:34:28] Michael Liebowitz: Yeah. Yeah. That’s fundamental back to the. The six, six years old, first grade, how do people on, how do we understand each other and how well do we get along?

[00:34:36] Steve Fretzin: I thought you were going to say how to, how to effectively tease people, but going back to that, back to first grade days. Michael, thanks again, man. I really appreciate it.

[00:34:45] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, we’re going to, we’re going to get together and we’re going to stay tight. Cause I, I just see a lot of synergies here. For sure. For sure. Cool. And hey, listen, everybody, thank you for spending some time with Michael and I today. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. I’m, uh, Michael’s clearly a rock star and, and just help star people to really are lawyers in this case, really articulate things that may be very simple, but at the same time, aren’t being articulated and aren’t helping grow business.

[00:35:10] Steve Fretzin: So this is how you

[00:35:11] Michael Liebowitz: become that lawyer

[00:35:12] Steve Fretzin: that so right on. Confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. All right, everybody, take care, be safe, be well, we’ll talk again soon.

[00:35:25] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.