In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Strauch discuss:
- Why lawyers are averse to sales.
- The top 3 things to do during the initial intake phone call.
- Building trust, listening with empathy and skillfully getting information.
- Honing your persuasion (and sales) skills that were learned in law school.
- Clients are the lifeblood of your practice. If you can’t bring them in, you don’t have a practice.
- Build relationships with your clients from the very first call.
- If you don’t know what the pain point is, you haven’t ever gotten to the emotional component, and you’re less likely to get the sale.
- During the intake call, be very clear about what the next steps are going to be.
“People make emotional buying decisions and justify it with logic.” — Michael Strauch
- The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss: https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Workweek-Escape-Live-Anywhere/dp/0307465357
Connect with Michael Strauch:
Get your free resources here: https://theclosingroom.com/podcast
Thank you to our Sponsors!
Legalese Marketing: https://legaleasemarketing.com/
Practice Panther: https://www.practicepanther.com/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Michael Strauch, MoneyPenny, Jordan Ostroff, Practice Panther
Michael Strauch [00:00]
People make emotional buying decisions that justify with logic, right?
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Robertson, we’ll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve, Brett said
Steve Fretzin [00:32]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day today. The biggest blizzard in the world is about to happen in the Midwest. And that’s what the people on the news say to make money. Pretty sure I think it’s just we call it an in in in the Midwest, we call it another day. But anyway, I was talking to Mike about the Michael about that. Goofing about. He’s in Arizona, and things are not not quite so crazy. But in Chicago, we we love to make a big deal about our weather and it ends up just being a big nothing burger. That’s my point. Heydo Michael.
Michael Strauch [01:01]
I’m doing great. Steve, I appreciate you having me on.
Steve Fretzin [01:04]
Yeah, good to see you. Good to see. And, you know, for those of you guys listening for the first time, or you know, a couple episodes, this show is all about helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, and in addition to the books and the articles and all the stuff I try to put out there to help you do that this podcast is dedicated to bringing in industry experts rainmakers, that can give you their tips and takeaways and ideas to make you a stronger better, a well rounded attorney and how you grow your practice. Whether you’re at a big firm, or whether you’re a solo doesn’t matter. Everyone needs to build business if they want to have control over their careers and client development is key. obviously have to take a moment to thank the sponsors loved my sponsors. legalese marketing helped me on a legal marketing side, they’re really not meant for me though, they’re meant for law firms, small law firms, mid market law firms that want to basically outsource their marketing to talk to legal ease, we got practice Panther setting you guys up to be automated in how you manage your, your business, essentially, as long as a small law firm, and of course money Penny has taken the reception, monkey off your back and allowing you to just have a live Virtual Receptionist that can handle those calls, and help you with the intake which by the way, Michael, we’re going to be getting into that a little bit later. But making sure that those intake people know what they’re doing, so that you don’t lose opportunities that are coming your way. Michael, you and it’s stuck. Right, like wrap your stroke. Okay, I knew I was gonna screw that up one way or the other. And of course, hold good. But I want to say Stroud, so I totally, you helped me get that better stroke. And you’re the founder of the closing room. And welcome to the show. And you were so kind to send me a great quote that I immediately criticized in wanting to change, but we won’t do it. We’ll keep it as is the famous Zig Ziglar. Guys, sales is not something we do to our clients. It’s something we do for our clients. So talk to me, first of all, welcome to the show. Second of all, you know, why did you submit that quote? Why do you like that quote?
Michael Strauch [03:12]
Yeah, no, I think it’s a great quote, because, especially for lawyers, what I often find is sales can sometimes be one of those slimy words, right? They don’t absolutely love it. And I think Zig Ziglar brings a good point to life here, which is it’s not something we do to our clients, although I liked your addition prospects rather than clients, right? But it’s something we do for our clients. And here’s where I stand with that. If you’re a law firm, you have a particular practice area, if you believe that you are the best person or the best firm in your practice area, in your geographical location, I would go as far as saying we almost have an ethical responsibility to do what we can to close that deal because we believe we are the best firm to serve that person. And I think this quote kind of brings light to that, right. It’s not something we’re doing to our clients, we’re not backing them into a corner something we’re doing for our clients, and we’re actually helping them get past for what most people is a difficult time in their lives.
Steve Fretzin [04:15]
Well I think one of the challenges in whether you’re a lawyer or you’re an entrepreneur you’re anyone you’ve we’ve all been sold to we’ve all been high pressure sold to and we just know that we don’t like that and so then we then assume that that’s what sales is and that’s how it’s done. And so we shy away from it because it’s disgusting and horrifying. And and I’m not an ambulance chaser, you know, hanging out at hospitals trying to sell you know, like what was the movie The Rainmaker, I love that movie, by the way, but like, you know, we’re, you know, Danny DeVito is in the hospital, like trying to take injured people and get them to sign up with them, you know, for a personal injury. Right. So that’s the connotation that sales has and it’s it’s, it couldn’t be further from the truth from I think, where you and I are going to go today, but in order to get there, we need to take a step back asked Michael, and we need to think about your background. And I’d love to hear a little bit about it. And obviously, you know, your game changing your be that lawyer, you know, tipping point game changing point. So take us through that background, if you would.
Michael Strauch [05:13]
Yeah. So I’ll start from kind of how I got into this field, and then we can go to that tipping point, right. So I actually ran a web development company prior to this space, and I built a YouTube channel off the back, some of you may be familiar with Wix. And I built a training company off of that. And what I identified through that journey is I absolutely loved the sales process. I loved selling web development projects. It was very fun for me, even though I was a business owner, that was my favorite part. What wasn’t my favorite part, coincidentally enough, was the actual design and development. And so I was looking for an opportunity to transition, I actually got an opportunity from a law firm in Towson, Maryland, they kind of said, alright, well, we’re willing to give you an opportunity with this whole sales thing, because I wanted to pursue the sales side of things. I wanted to build a business with sales. And they said, Look, you got 90 days, we’ll give you nine days to come in here. And once you prove yourself, if your structure your process works, right, we’ll be your biggest advocate. If not, well, okay, we aren’t weights. And so I came in, they were closing out about 50% of their qualified leads into paying clients. And then at the end of our 90 day run, they were consistently closing at 84%, which was phenomenal. They were super excited, they were collecting more cash than ever before. And then I went on, built a beta group of three select clients, and did the same thing with them. I trained their staff to do it. And that’s what led me to now launch what is the closing room. And that’s what I do I help law firm owners optimize their sales process to generate more revenue and optimize the close rate, we’ll help law firms generate over six and a half million dollars over the last two years. But it wasn’t always there. Right? You had mentioned my tipping point. So when I was younger, back in high school, I was kind of like rolling the dice a little bit. My family was looking at me, and you know, you had one half saint, this guy could be really bright, he could be really successful. And then yeah, the other half that was like, on the edge, you could also be a little bit lazy. I don’t know if he’s going to quite get to where we want to see him go. And so I was feeling that. And so my big tipping point was in high school, I was severely overweight. Okay, so I was about 5758 and 220 pounds, I was just like a little ball, basically. And I was not in love with the way I look, when suddenly I was also at that time trying to pursue a girl what really caught my eye. And so I knew that I wanted to make a change, not just for the girl. But I also that year was at the beach on an annual trip, looked at a picture of myself and was like, I got to change something like I just didn’t feel competent in the way I looked. I didn’t you feel competent, in general, just because of that I was always uncomfortable. And so I decided to make a change. I knew it was going to be difficult, I knew was going to be uncomfortable. But I decided from that point, I started waking up at 6am. Before school every day going to the gym, I’ve made a radical change in my diet, which by the way, for me was very difficult because I love food. I love the taste. I love the experience. I love bowl nine. And so I knew that was going to be difficult, but I did it. And within nine months from that point, I was actually able to lose 80 pounds and actually got down to my lowest at 143. The saying of you get addicted to the result kind of holds true, I probably got a little too addicted to the results to the point of an extreme right, I was going two times a day to the gym, cut my diet back considerably. So that was a bit of an extreme version. But it got me to where I wanted to go at the end of that nine months to a year of me going through that I was a radically different person. Like I was more competent. I was discipline. And I just had more drive. And because of all of those things by chain, I actually was able to pursue and get the woman of my dreams who actually I’m proud to say I’m gonna be marrying it a year from now. And yes, that’s amazing that they do and was able to actually start to build a business that’s when I built that web development company and just everything changed. It was like a light bulb went off. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [09:41]
that’s amazing. And I and I’ve got a teenager who’s in high school and you know, discipline and habits and things that they’re just his brain isn’t developed for that yet. And there’s you know, unless he’s got a passion for something then then he’s motivated but you know, working out and eating right and stuff like that, and I was the same way In high school, I mean, it took me I think, to my junior year to, to get serious about my grades and about, you know, just being, you know, stronger person as I went into college and all that. But I think that’s, I mean, that’s just that’s just so great. And I’m happy that you would landed in is an entrepreneur because it that’s another whole, you know, level of confidence that I think probably started from that tipping point. Yeah,
Michael Strauch [10:25]
absolutely. I mean, it was a natural transition, I was always entrepreneurial, grew up in a great family that supported that. But that just sent it over to yet right, that laid the foundation for all the important attitude components you need as an entrepreneur. Yeah. Well, let’s
Steve Fretzin [10:40]
get into the weeds on our main topic today. In its it is around sales, it is around intake, but let’s let’s, I love to go to the negative not because I’m a negative guy, but I think it’s important to kind of almost hit like, you know, problem solution. So why are lawyers so adverse to the word sales? And we covered that a little bit earlier? But I’d like your take on that. And then sort of what the myth of sales is.
Michael Strauch [11:02]
Yeah. So you know, I tend to find that lawyers are adverse to sales, mainly because of that connotation that it’s got, right? I lawyers are very, very good at their craft, for the most part, and I think a lot of them think that sales is a necessity, but it’s not something they love. And I think that’s derived from that, that connotation, that icky feeling that feel like you’re pressuring somebody into doing something, and I just, I don’t firmly believe that that’s the case when done properly,
Steve Fretzin [11:34]
well, in that, but the problem is, is that, you know, look, whether you’re a doctor or a lawyer, you have an advanced degree, you know, you’re you know, you’ve got an education that puts you in the law in particular, it’s such a noble thing that they should feel to some degree, you know, a little bit above, not us, but like above, above things a little bit because of that education, and that, you know, they’re doing something, you know, important for the world. The, but on the other side there, you know, that sales is because of the way sales has been that, you know, for them to have to lower themselves to do that job, which is not what they signed up for in law school. It’s not what they signed up for when they got their job at the law firm. It’s a little bit I know, a lot irritating to them. But it’s become, and you you would agree with this, I’m sure like, pretty much like the second most important thing next to being a great lawyer is you need to get your own clients.
Michael Strauch [12:28]
100%. I mean, it’s a necessity. That’s the lifeblood of your practice, right. Without clients. There’s no practice.
Steve Fretzin [12:35]
Yeah, yeah. And so the in the, the thing you mentioned earlier, too, is you know, they, they don’t have any education in it. So it’s even more uncomfortable, because they’re winging it and try to figure it out on their own, when they don’t have someone like you or me in their corner. And that makes it even more challenging. It’s like Jesus, this is such a waste of time. Because I’m not getting, you know, out of it, what I need to build the client base. And so either I give up, or I just keep struggling for year after year after year. One of the areas that lawyers struggle with and this is exactly in your story of how you got into this was in the intake right in the you know, they’ve got 50% of their, you know, people coming in to see them out there, or they’ve got, you know, of the 100% that come in to see them 50% Close, how does it go to 84? So, why did they struggle with that intake part of the deal?
Michael Strauch [13:25]
Yeah, so, exactly that. So I see, there’s two separate parts to the sales process, right, you’ve got the intake in the form of appointment setting and getting the appointment set, getting them to show up to their appointment, and then you got the consultation. And what I often find is in intake, where I see law firms struggle a lot, is that initial call that we take from them, I don’t believe we do enough relationship building. So I believe that when we answer the phone, if not trained properly, it’s easy to just jump to Hey, well, let’s just get you set into an appointment. But what we have to do during that intake process is start to build that empathy a little bit start to relate to their situation. So the prospect can immediately start building trust with our firm showing that we actually care, right? We’re not just a factory pushing every single person through, they have a unique situation, they’re going through something and we’re building that trust with them through that initial intake phone call with the goal of the intake phone call being a set appointment, right? That’s the goal of the intake phone call, but that’s where I see a lot of firms struggle,
Steve Fretzin [14:32]
and that doesn’t matter if it’s a lawyer taking that call or an office manager or a receptionist. They all have to have the play in the playbook of developing that rapport empathy to get things off on the right foot. Absolutely. Okay.
Did you know that 36% of potential clients would take their business elsewhere if they had a bad call experience? Roll out the red carpet for your colors and website visitors with experience and professional money? the receptionist’s are awesome team super powered by technology will get to know your business inside out so they can answer calls and respond to web chats exactly as if part of your team, start your free trial by quoting the name Fredson. and get started today with many pinnae.
Practice Panther [15:18]
With the help of practice Panther how our office is more efficient than ever, we now provide an even higher level of service to our clients. I have collaborated
Steve Fretzin [15:27]
with practice Panther for years, and I’m always hearing from happy customers just like that one. Practice Panther wants to save you up to eight hours every week and I want to save you money, all my listeners can get an exclusive discount 50% off your first three months. Learn how your firm can boost productivity with automated workflows, customer intake and native e payments by visiting practice panther.com/be That lawyer to discover more and claim this deal.
Jordan Ostroff [15:56]
legalese marketing is not your traditional marketing vendor. Instead, we’re a true fractional cmo that helps you save time and spend your money the right way to build a practice of your dreams. We help through the entire process from customizing your intake system to driving leads, and even getting more reviews afterwards, schedule your free call at legalese marketing.com.
Steve Fretzin [16:16]
The other part of that too? Well, this was mentioned by someone else that was on my show. And I just thought about it. After they said it. I was like, wow, that’s really true. You know, a lot of the intake is also by the you know, it’s like a marketing play like and how did you hear about us? Like they want to get to the Google or the article or the thing? And that’s not really building rapport? Is it? That’s what is that? How is that a negative?
Michael Strauch [16:40]
Oh, well, I mean, the issue with that is exactly that. You could maybe bake that into your conversation at some point. But it should not be immediate, right? Like, gotta be prospector story first, relationship building first. And then maybe at the end, after you’ve actually already set the appointment, you could say, Hey, by the way, I’m curious, how did you find out about us? Or how did you hear about us? Because then you’ve built that trust, you’ve already started that relationship building process, and they don’t feel so turned off right off the bat,
Steve Fretzin [17:09]
that’s probably not an if it’s more of a win. Right? You know, when it comes up? The other thing is, so let’s say that I’m doing an intake on on a personal injury, okay? And I’m the receptionist, or the or the that’s answering the phone, they’re calling in, they want to talk to a lawyer, and I need to set that up. Okay. I’m building the relationship. And then am I asking them about their story? Like what happened? And tell me the whole thing? And that could take five minutes? Or it could take 20 minutes? Is that? What your how was that working out?
Michael Strauch [17:40]
Yeah. So I think you still have to build that trust, I think you still have to ask what’s going on, right? And you still got to get an understanding. But you’ve got to do it skillfully to the point of you’re not necessarily looking for every single detail, right? Because that’s what the consultation is going to be used for. But we want to at least get a base level to show I care about what’s happening with your situation. And I want to learn what happened. Tell me more about what’s going on. And then we’ll transition that into perfect. Well, I think the best next step is sit down with the attorney or whoever’s running the consultation, right? So we can put you on the best path for success and help you. Right, it’s just a seamless transition, but we still have to build that relationship.
Steve Fretzin [18:25]
Okay, so I’m a lawyer listening right now. And I don’t have any plan for intake other than people call in and we schedule an appointment or we don’t, if you had to say like the top three things that have to happen after relationships, so, you know, building relationship and asking what’s going on what else needs to happen on that call that generates more assurance that the meeting is going to happen with that a lawyer with that attorney?
Michael Strauch [18:50]
Yeah, in terms of, you know, moving them into the assurance that they’re actually going to have an opportunity to meet with them, or just next few things like what
Steve Fretzin [18:59]
else? What happened in that intake meeting? So I’m getting on the receptionist, I’m, you know, taking down their information after I hear like, what’s going on? Like, what what do I need to, you know, to get that to, again, is it just the relationship that sets up the meeting? Are there other pieces to it that have to happen, that help qualify or help reassured that meeting is going to happen to get to that, again, higher level of closing?
Michael Strauch [19:23]
Right? So I think a few things have to happen. I think as you’re going through their story, you may have to ask some qualifying questions, right? Because I do agree that you want to make sure from an appointment setting perspective, you know, you are putting qualified prospects into a consultation. You don’t want to set up filtering too much to the level that now we’re starting to ride this gray area of filtering out too many people. Right, right. So we’ve got to do that. And then we’ve got to be willing to and I know this is a straightforward one, but for lack of a better term to ask for the order. We have to be willing to say, All right, well, the best next step is To get you sat down with the attorney or to get you into a consultation, so that way we can kind of go through the details of this and work to get this past year. Right. Okay, putting this situation past them.
Steve Fretzin [20:10]
Okay. Is it good to ask if they’ve already met with another attorney? Or are they have diff plans of meeting with multiple attorneys? Are we Why do we not want to go down that path?
Michael Strauch [20:19]
I’m usually not a proponent of going down that path, because I want to keep them focused on our firm. Granted, it could come up in the consultation as an objection at some point where we can focus on it and kind of build a box around that, then.
Steve Fretzin [20:33]
Okay. And then it’s part of intake for certain practice areas where they get a credit card and try to like confirm the meaning and get paid up front. So to ensure that it happens, or is that in certain areas is just a matter of, you know, reconfirming? That, you know, we’re meeting at this they’re meeting with this time at this date at this place?
Michael Strauch [20:52]
Yeah, so I think it depends on the practice area, because obviously, some practice areas, you’re doing paid console, right? And if it’s a paid console, that person literally is asking for the order. Right? Right, we’re asking for the order, we’re collecting the card, we’re charging it for the consultation. And if it’s a free console, I think we’re making sure we go through, we give them an option of Wednesday, or Thursday at x time or B time. And then they select the time that works for them. And we’re just getting them to commit, right? We’re doing some version of if it’s a free copy of some version of, you know, listen, you promise that if anything changes in your schedule, you’ll make us aware ahead of time, so that way we can work with you to get to reschedule. Right, we want that commitment. So just making sure they’re very clear on what that next step looks like.
Steve Fretzin [21:37]
Yeah, that’s a really good point, the one that I have used over the years is other than a real emergency, is there any reason that you wouldn’t, you know, be able to meet Thursday at two o’clock with this attorney. And so their their understanding when they agree to that, that Yeah, I mean, unless the world is coming to an end, or they’ve got some major health issue, they know, they’re gonna be there with bells on to try to make sure it happens. So my next kind of thought is like, there are some skills that lawyers have going through law school, and they that they learn that do that can be utilized to help them in a sales conversation or business development conversation. What do you think about that? Like, what skills do you think translate well, from lawyers that they can use to help be a better, you know, intake or closer, etc?
Michael Strauch [22:23]
Yeah, well, you look at a lot of lawyers that are still actively going to court or trial lawyers, or you learn a lot of persuasive skills, right, on how to build a case, that is going to hopefully win, right. And so I think that’s like a direct comparison. All right, no, not necessarily every single lawyer is going to trial, and maybe in some cases, even going to court. But I think while you’re in law school, you do learn this ability to kind of build a case to learn persuasion. And I think that’s a direct comparison over to sale, right? Because now you’re able to use tools like that, when you’re overcoming objection, or someone’s going through and putting a roadblock in the way you can kind of work through that situation. Just like you would have it, you’re building a case. For me, that’s like one of the direct comparisons that I see right off the bat.
Steve Fretzin [23:09]
Yeah, and I think in alignment with that would be, you know, depositions in the courtroom questioning. I mean, you don’t start with your toughest question first, right? You start with a soft ball, and kind of slowly dig down deeper and your outlay. You know, depending on who the witnesses, you’re, you’re asking open ended questions to get them to give as much information as possible versus a yes or no. And no, that’s sort of like sales one on one. However, it’s a skill that can be honed. Because at the end of the day, from my perspective, I’d love to get your take on this, Michael, is people make decisions emotionally, and back it up rationally. And when it comes to hiring a lawyer or hiring a coach, hiring a therapist, whatever it might be, there’s got to be an emotional component. If it’s a big, a big investment of money, right? I mean, if it’s me buying a pen for $1, I don’t need much emotion to do that. Right, I just go buy the pen. But if I’m going to spend 510 20 $100,000 on a lawyer, you know, there’s got to be something emotional driving that type of a spend. And lawyers don’t understand that. That’s the key to success is getting into the weed is sort of like a therapist peeling away the onion, the layers of the onion to get to the emotional side. So how do you address that in the closing room setting to get to the you know, pain or to get to the heart of the matter? I’m
Michael Strauch [24:31]
so happy you said that. I always in my training calls always say some version of exactly what you just said. People make emotional buying decisions that justify with logic. Yeah, right. It’s almost a clear cut version of what you said there and, and how we do that is exactly what you mentioned. We have to get to the pain point, right? We’ve got to figure out what is it what’s keeping them up at night? And so we got to incorporate some type of question like that into our consultation process, you know, what’s your biggest fear in all this? What’s keeping you up at night? If we never asked that, and we never actually take that a level further than we really haven’t ever gotten to the emotional component. So we’ve got to open them up. I personally like to call it the heaven and the hell, right? I like to go through whatever their hell is, what they’re experiencing what their big fear is, and open them up, let them talk, right? What is it? And then ask further questions about it more clarity, you know, play that tape out a little further. Okay. You said your basic fear is this, what would it look like? That’s happening? Right? Well, the end and they just keep talking. And so then we could get to their pain point, they start to feel that emotion. And on the flip side, you know, depending on the practice area, usually everyone’s a little bit more pain driven. But people like maybe estate planning, in some cases could be a little bit more goal driven, have been driven, right, right, I progression planning, so we have to get to their goal, too, right, we have to figure out you know, what their ultimate goal looks like in the case and, and getting them to play that tape out a little bit talking a little bit more about that, that Heaven and Hell section is one of the most vital parts of a consultation, right, we have to get to the emotions.
Steve Fretzin [26:11]
And it’s something that need not only is a learned skill, but it also is something that needs to be practiced and rehearsed and done multiple times. Because to have that conversation, can be a game changer as it relates to how the buyer decides that you’re the right fit that the buyer gets there, you know, not only motivation, but their urgency to take action, because something is painful, or there’s fear, there’s something driving that motivation that isn’t just, I just have $10,000, burning a hole in my pocket, I need to give it to a lawyer. I mean, that’s not really, you know, something anybody would really like to do. So now there’s gotta be a reason for it. And your job is not to sell, convince, pitch any of that stuff. That’s old school, jazz, right? What we want to look at doing is to Michael’s point, how are we building relationship? How are we running the intake? How are we leading that to a conversation about them? Where is emotionally triggered and driven? And that’s what leads to the higher close rate?
Michael Strauch [27:14]
Exactly. No one wants to show up to a consultation. And it be all about the firm. Right? Yeah, this is what we do. This is who we are. This is how much it’s gonna cost. Are we getting started? No one wants that. Because there’s no trust established there. To be frank, zero care about the prospect in that situation that I just went through. And so from a prospect perspective, you, you put yourself in their shoes, you’re not going to be highly motivated, number one to make a decision, because you may have not even covered why it’s important to make a decision, but to you’re just going to feel like this person may be a little bit self serving, right? It’s just Okay, let’s put the next one through. Right.
Steve Fretzin [27:52]
Yeah, the easiest way for people to visualize this or think about this is simple. It’s a simple mantra that I picked up somewhere. And I’m not going to say where because I forgot. Prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. So the idea that we’re going to just pitch and convince and sell is prescription, however, what have you missed while you’ve missed the entire diagnosis? Well, that’s not only the most important part, but it’s actually makes it fun and enjoyable, to have a conversation where you’re listening to someone that’s talking to you and telling and sharing and opening up to you. And you can sit back and relax and listen, versus feeling like you have to jump in and sell and convince. So this is a new way that we have to do business development. And the best part is, you don’t have to be a salesman to do it, you actually can be be yourself, and the person is going to really appreciate your bedside manner. But I’m not saying it’s easy, either. You know, it’s but it’s the right way to do it.
Michael Strauch [28:49]
Absolutely. I mean, you’re spot on, it takes a lot of practice, it takes training, it takes repetitions, you know it for many attorneys, it may or may not come naturally, right. And so you got to build it, you got to focus on it. But once you get it, yes, it becomes more enjoyable and to the bedside manner to your to your point, exponentially increases, people just feel much more comfortable with you. They build that sense of trust with you.
Steve Fretzin [29:14]
And it’s not that you’re not going to pitch or that you’re not going to have something to share about your firm or about your experience about your case wins. That can happen. But isn’t it better if it happens at the end of the meeting after you actually know what they care about? Like what’s important to them? If it’s not important for them to hear about all the wins, then why are you sharing it? Like let’s learn first and diagnose first and prescribe and talk second. And that way we’re not only not wasting their time, but we’re actually hitting the mark as it relates to what’s what they need to see here experience to feel comfortable that we’re the best fit.
Michael Strauch [29:50]
And Riley happy you said that really happy to sit down because it’s twofold, right? I don’t want to create a false illusion. The consultation is not Joe us, you know the Heaven and Hell and learning about their pain points, there is a point in the consultation where you’re going to transition over to how your firm can help and actually asking for the order. That still happens in the consultation. That’s just not the entire consultation. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [30:16]
I mean, I’ve had scenarios where all like a prospective client and individual attorney that wants to work with me, and it only comes down to one thing, they say, I just want to sit through one of your classes, Steve, if I like it, and I feel like that’s, that’s the direction I want to go that I want to be in a coaching program that includes a training component weekly class, and I like it, then then I’m in like, then I want to do it. So what else am I I’m not sharing my materials. I’m not having them speak with my clients. I’m not having to pitch my experience. Like it’s all out the window, because I’ve gotten it down to just like, what does that person interested in? That’s going to get them over the over the line right over the finish line. So we sometimes need to kind of get out of our own ways in a good system that you have, or I have helps with that, because we can just follow a system to get a more predictable result.
Michael Strauch [31:05]
So absolutely. That’s the name of the game right there.
Steve Fretzin [31:08]
Yeah. So Michael, your game changing book as we segue into kind of wrapping things up a little bit is The Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss, talk to me about that? That seems like a lovely idea. I’d love to work four hours a week, how do I do that?
Michael Strauch [31:22]
Lovely idea, right? Buddy? It was actually during COVID. Right? Right at the heart of everything, I picked up a copy of that book. And I was just really interested in it, I always heard great things about it. And Tim Ferriss has just really built a great book, and really designing systems, both for your business and for your life, that enables you and gives you the opportunity to work four hours a week if you want to and, and make the same money, if not more than you’re making currently. And it just really resonated with me. I love the approach he took in the book, I love the story. I love the way it was written. I thought the systems he discussed, were great. I always like to go back and revisit that to some of the pages I have marked just because I think he did a really, really good job. And there’s a lot of great books out there. That one does certainly resonated with me.
Steve Fretzin [32:10]
You know, if he changed the title to the 40 Hour Workweek, I think a lot of attorneys would buy it. Because you’re gonna love to get it down to 40. Right. So
Michael Strauch [32:20]
Right? Why design saving?
Steve Fretzin [32:22]
There is no 40 Hour Work Week. That’d be fantastic. Well, thanks. It’s really great having you on the show, Michael. And if people want to get in touch with you, and they want to reach their close rate, they want to talk to you about the closing room, what’s the best way for them to reach you?
Michael Strauch [32:37]
Yeah, so always available on you know, LinkedIn. But if you want to go to closing room.com backslash podcast, I’ve actually got a free resource on there for the audience today, just a little video explaining a single shift they can make in their sales process right now to increase closed rate figure that would probably be helpful for everyone. So that’d be the best first place to kind of connect and get some value. And if you get some value, we could talk from that point.
Steve Fretzin [33:03]
Yeah, and make sure I have that link. Because what I’ll do is I’ll put it in the show notes. And that way people can just go right on the website or into the, into the show notes and they can pick up on that perfect and your email is Hello at the closing room.com. So Michael, just a pleasure having you I think what you’re doing is very noble thing and anything we can do to help lawyers to get more business and less time and with less effort and make them happier, right? Ultimately, we just we’re all for their happiness and having more clients and more money tends to help resolve some of that, but I just appreciate you being on the show and sharing your wisdom. It’s really terrific.
Michael Strauch [33:40]
Steve, I really appreciate the opportunity and and I do hope everyone got some value. Today’s conversation. It was great. Having the opportunity to be on here and and I appreciate you parting some great wisdom as well. I think there’s good value pieces in here today.
Steve Fretzin [33:55]
Yeah, well, I’d like a good collaboration and I have the feeling there’s more to come for you and I pass today and for those of you who haven’t picked up on it, too. I’ve got the coach’s corners coming up. Every month we’re doing a Coach’s Corner, we’re bringing top legal sales coaches together in a panel have to get you on one of those, Michael, and essentially, what are your toughest challenges? What are you guys dealing with? That’s harsh and hard to deal with? And then of course, you know, we’ve got all these top coaches that can answer your questions live, and then those ultimately become podcast episodes. So getting a little bit of a twofer, but that’s okay, that’s my jam. That’s okay. Yeah.
Michael Strauch [34:30]
I would love that opportunity.
Steve Fretzin [34:32]
It has to Michael. Alright. Thanks, man. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Michael and I today, you know, providing some great insights and not only intake but general philosophy and ideas on how to be better as a business developer without feeling salesy, which I think is really important to note. And you know, if it helps you to get a little closer to being that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in the skilled Rainmaker, then we’re doing our job here on the show, and we hope you stay with us. We hope that you’re well and we’ll talk again soon
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fredson.com For additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes