Molly McGrath: Hire, Empower, Communicate, and Demonstrate

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Molly McGrath discuss:

  • The greatest employment tools you have as a business owner.
  • Attracting players and keeping key employees.
  • Reinventing the hiring process to catch the rockstar candidates.
  • What lawyers want more than money and perks.

Key Takeaways:

  • It’s not just about the money. It is about the time, the attention, the resources, the communication, and the feedback with you and your employees.
  • People are not job hunting. They are digging into coaching and self-discovery. You have to outsource hiring because you have to sell your firm, yourself, and your company.
  • Investing in your people, invest in yourself, invest in your culture, invest in coaching. This will help to attract and retain employees.
  • Lawyers want firms that are flexible and progressive in their thinking and business models.


“When you hire someone, it is a relationship and not a transaction. The greatest retention tool, the greatest hiring tool, even if you cannot compete with big firm salaries, if you can communicate and demonstrate that you are invested in the relationship with an employee and you give them consistent time, attention and feedback they’ll take your job over anybody else’s.” —  Molly McGrath

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

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Molly Mcgrath  [00:00]

If you can communicate and demonstrate that you are invested in the relationship with an employee and you give them consistent time, attention and feedback, number one, they’ll take your job over anybody else’s. And if somebody’s a really good attorney, paralegal paraprofessional, they have multiple job offers on the table at any given time.


Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. It’s me again, Steve Fretzin. How’s it going? Hey, it’s another opportunity to be that lawyer, and many of you are, are dealing with some really crazy stuff going on in the marketplace. It’s been going on for a while now, the great resignation. And so here I’m trying to teach business development and marketing and all these things that everyone would love to do. But you don’t have the employees. You don’t have the partners, the associates, things are going crazy. Everyone’s leaving to go somewhere else. And is it about the money? Is it about the fame? Is it about the you know, I don’t know what it is. But we’re going to find out today, I’m going to introduce my guests, Molly’s going to lay out all this out for us. Want us to take a second though, thank our sponsors, legalese marketing, helping me with all my marketing stuff for my business and helping law firms all over the country do the same. And of course, money Penny doing the live chat on my website. And of course, they do the virtual reception, which many law firms need to make sure that people are getting taken properly, and intake is done. So Molly was kind enough to send me a quote that I thought was really interesting. time, attention and feedback wins every day over money. So first of all, we’ll talk about that quote, but Molly McGrath, welcome to the show.


Molly Mcgrath  [02:03]

Oh, thank you for having me. I’m so excited for today. Yeah, we


Steve Fretzin  [02:07]

met at the ABA legal tech show. I think we had a couple cocktails together and you got to watch me and my ping pong prowess. Yeah. But it was really fun meeting you. You’re the most fun person I hung out with that day.


Molly Mcgrath  [02:17]

Ah, thank you. Chelsea through a great party.


Steve Fretzin  [02:21]

Yes, she did. Yeah. Chelsea Williams, everybody. She’s awesome. Shout out to Chelsea, you are amazing. You’re the founder of hiring and empowering solutions. You’re an author, your speaker, blogger, podcast hosts, what don’t you do?


Molly Mcgrath  [02:37]

I do not do data entry or Admin Details. There we go.


Steve Fretzin  [02:41]

All right. You’re assuming you’re a smart business owner, so good for you on that. Let’s talk about the quote just for a moment, though. Time attention. Feedback wins every day over money. So why why did you submit that quote? That’s really interesting. Because


Molly Mcgrath  [02:54]

I tell you, attorneys, what do you hear from attorneys all the time, Steve, I’m too busy. I don’t have time if they are trained, which is true. And I hear all the time from attorneys. Listen, I need someone batteries included. I don’t have time to train to onboard what have you. And I consistently say you have to remember, especially in this market, that when you hire someone, it is a relationship and not a transaction and is so simplistic, the greatest retention tool, the greatest hiring tool, even if you cannot compete with big firm, or all these other salaries, if you can communicate and demonstrate that you are invested in the relationship with an employee and you give them consistent time, attention and feedback. Number one, they’ll take your job over anybody else’s. And if somebody’s a really good attorney, paralegal paraprofessional, they have multiple job offers on the table at any given time. And I asked people tell me why you’re leaving? Why are you talking to a recruiter today? And they will consistently say, there’s no opportunity for growth. And I’ll just peel away the layers of the onion of that and tell me what your definition of opportunity which your definition to grow every single time when I really peel back, all of that is that they have no idea where true north is in the firm. They are not connected to the innovator within the practice to the visionary. And they are not getting consistent time attention reviews and feedbacks, and they don’t even reviews with raises.


Steve Fretzin  [04:34]

Yeah, and it’s funny, I was talking to a client this morning and he’s has a paralegal it started with him than within four months. And he’s not getting results out of the guy. He’s not seeing a return on investment. And of course, it came back to he hasn’t spent any time with him. He’s too busy. He hasn’t trained him properly. He’s not you know, there’s so many gaps in how he’s on boarded this poor soul. And you know, I told him you got to get a handle on it now. Our it’s not going to, it’s not going to go well. And you know, you’re gonna have to start over. And can you afford that to start over with how busy you are? So you’re absolutely right on all these I love, communicate and demonstrate and and there’s so much more that we’re going to get into about it. But I think you’re spot on with that it’s it’s time and attention that matters right now.


Molly Mcgrath  [05:20]

It absolutely is listen to pandemic hit, people sat on their couches and really took stock of their life. And it wasn’t necessarily about benefits and pay and all that they’re like, where am I spending my time and energy in for the client that you just demonstrated? I’m constantly preaching that because the you’re not getting what you need out of this guy. But are you even certain you told him exactly what you need? What are the clear, concise well communicated, and I know attorneys do not business owners were horrible at training, if we were great trainers would be the profession to training,


Steve Fretzin  [05:56]

I’ll tell you about. I’ll tell you how bad it is I, I got out of having employees for that reason. Like I think I’m a terrific coach, and I’m great with my clients and we have a great affinity for each other. But dealing with employees, I was really bad. Like I thought that would be kind of my jam. Absolutely not my jam. I’m running too fast to slow down and take the time to train somebody up properly and do it do it the right way. So but some some people can’t you have to be able to do that. You have to learn that skill. I just didn’t. I didn’t pick it up. But I probably would have been doing very different things if I had.


Molly Mcgrath  [06:28]

Yeah. And for the attorneys and don’t know how to train. That’s okay. Because if you hire Rockstar employees, and you go through the hiring process, and you’re very clear upfront that listen, you will have unlimited access to me, I will be very clear on exactly what your key performance indicators are. What I need for you we work consistently meet to track and measure and what have you. But when it comes to the how, I don’t know the answer, and it’s so refreshing when I hear entrepreneurs say that and leadership say that I can’t specifically train you on how to do what you do. But if you’re resourceful, I will write a check to send you 10 DCE programs, I will help you and support you. And when potential employees or existing employees get that vulnerability and transparency from the attorney, they’re like got it great. I’m delighted to go find the my answers to find the training and to come back and over deliver. Yeah, and we’re


Steve Fretzin  [07:31]

gonna get into a lot of really important topics as we continue through this journey together for the next 20 Some minutes. But I’d love for you to share your background because I think it I want to set you up as the expert that you are with my audience. So they understand who who I’m dealing with and who they’re listening to, and why they should why they should take what we’re talking about today. So seriously. So go back in time and give us give us the Reader’s Digest version of of how you came to be and get to where you are today, which is, you know, highly successful, not only recruiter but you know advocate for for lawyers.


Molly Mcgrath  [08:05]

Absolutely. I fell into the legal industry back in 1997. So about 25 plus years that I’ve been in the legal industry. And I back then applied for a position in Denver, Colorado where I still reside. And back in 97, for a position that was a national organization for state planning and elder law attorneys in particular. And I was brought on as an admin assistant. And my very first day on the job, I went to a legal conference and attended that there are over, oh gosh, over 2000 law firms, law firms with their team members and their staff members, etc. There. And my job was to help people register I was in training to to facilitate the event planning for these key gyms, they did every quarter across the country with massive breakout sessions very big event. And it was interesting because when your new employee, you’re taught, hey, go mingle with the clients go at the cocktail receptions at the breakfast table, set the coffee, you know what have you over deliver and just top notch customer service. Interesting is that, you know, I would go to these cocktail receptions breakfast what have you and I on one side of me is the attorney, introduce him a great Tell me about your practice, what’s working, what’s not working. We’re in the process of developing one of the very first coaching programs for attorneys. And so my job was to figure out their pain points as well. And the attorneys would say business is fantastic. But for the employees, it’s so hard to attract, hire and keep good people you know, even back then they were saying nobody wants to work. And then I would move over to the other side of the table and talk to the employees and build Greg, tell me a little bit about your position, what have you what’s working, what’s not working in your role. And they would say, it’d be great, but the attorneys a control freak, and will not delegate anything, I get no time, no attention, no feedback, etc. And I feel like a miserable failure every day. So I just show up and do what I’m told, put my head down, keep my mouth shut, collect my paycheck, and then leave at five o’clock. Because there there was a massive disconnect. I went to my boss at the time, who was developing one of the very first coaching programs for law firms back then, and said to him, there’s a problem. You have this coaching program for attorneys, but there’s absolutely nothing for the support staff. And there is a massive disconnect. And so he said, great, go develop a team coaching program. So with his help, I developed the very first back then we call this the key assistant program, and it was a game changer. And through that, I’d hear from attorneys constantly. How do I clone you? How do I clone you? How do I clone you? How do I get a MOLLE and through that I’ve always been a very deeply curious person. And I’m a pain in the butt paper. Like gotcha, like a five year olds are constantly asking why why? Why? Why? Why? Because I’m really invested in the why. And from them. I’m you know, people kept saying you should write a book, you should write a book. I’m like, Okay, how hard could it be? Wrote a book started a business. And that was back in 2008, which was an amazing time to start a business.


Steve Fretzin  [11:36]

No doubt, no doubt. And so you’ve you’ve continued to develop the model of recruiting in a unique way. And I want to I’ll we’ll, we’ll save that for the end. But let’s let’s let’s get into the weeds on the big the big topic today. You know, the great resignation. I’ve had a few other people talk about it, but I don’t think we got into into the into the weeds away, you and I are going to so what’s the current state? You know, we’re, we’re this is probably airing sometime in late May, early June. What’s the state of the industry right now as it relates to the great resignation?


Molly Mcgrath  [12:10]

Okay, great. So first and foremost, you know, probably since around 2008, the days it started to slowly dwindle of throwing an ad up on Indeed, and getting 1000 resumes. In this day and age, you’re lucky if you’re gonna get to three, five, people are not really truly they’re not job hopping at all, you know, what they are doing is doing a lot of self discovery. People are investing in coaching personal professional development more than ever. So the markets tight if you’re trying to staff by yourself, I cannot in this not a plug for my business or anywhere, you have to outsource staffing right now, because it is very quickly shifted into sales. 100%, selling your culture, selling your firms selling you as a boss, what have you. So people really, truly are not just resigning from jobs everywhere, because they’re like, Oh, I’m going to take advantage of this employee driven market. That’s not the case, by enlarge. It might be an exception, but it’s not the norm. What is happening is that recruiters have gotten very, very savvy. And they understand that the market is tight in the legal space. It’s under 1% right now. And so what they’re doing is writing very, very attractive emails, in our emails that we write to people say, the subject line says, are you happy? Do you feel valued? And are you being paid what you’re worth? If not, let’s talk and it just takes the day where they their head was on the chopping block, or their attorney ditched another meeting, or whatever happens for these employees to say, you know, nothing’s ever going to change. Let me talk to this recruiter, well, then we sell the firm authentically, because I only work with attorneys who really believe in their culture and their people and investing in them. So when we can get them and catch them at the right time. And that’s what’s happening across the board in every industry. It’s fascinating because when I get on the phone, that’s what I will hear. No opportunity is they’re not getting the time, attention and feedback. Their employer is not really investing in the relationship but the employee, they’re treating it like a transaction. Still,


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Steve Fretzin  [15:26]

it’s almost like like a bubbling cauldron because there’s never been more work being given to attorneys. And then they don’t have the time to train to invest to do the social piece and all that stuff where they’re not making the time, I should say, where they just, they just, they’re just so far over their skis, with the amount of work they have, that they’re, they’re not able to do the cultural and integral pieces of relationship building with their people. But it has to get done, because we’re seeing the results of poor training relationships and culture, leading to, you know, mass exodus of people, people leaving and taking those better jobs or different jobs.


Molly Mcgrath  [16:07]

Yeah, and they’re truly better jobs, not necessarily better paying jobs. And I’ll give you that we’ve never been busier before, because law firms have never been busier than before, which is fantastic. But our job has never been as hard as it is right now. I mean, I have my recruiters like pacing the floor on a daily basis, because the attorney will meet with a fantastic candidate. This just happened this morning. And then they’re saying, okay, great, well, I want you to take this, you know, to our assessment, I want you to send me 72 different writing samples you’re going to come in for for more interviews, I want to do reference checks when the attorney doesn’t have time to do all this. And they’re gonna they have to reinvent their hiring process. If you have a rockstar candidate. Like I said earlier, on average, most people that I talked to have two if not three, if not four, if not five job offers. And so we do a really great job at our recruiting. We’re like, Don’t you dare take that job without meeting with my attorney, because my attorneys amazing. They coach with Steve, they’re part of all these different develop personal and professional development. And that’s one thing I will say to your lawyers, if you ever question writing a check to a coach, or to anything for personal and professional development, I will tell you it is your greatest super weapon that you have for retention and for hiring new candidates, because that’s what I sell, like, listen, they are investing heavily into legal business development into mindset into business, all of it. And they’re like, great, because my law firm doesn’t do that at all. So they it’s just showing how progressive you are.


Steve Fretzin  [17:53]

So it sounds like the firm’s that are stepping up and really investing in their people on not money investment, but investment in culture investment in social charity. And in training and coaching, things like that. They’re the ones that are that are that are that are maybe getting the better, the better people because they’re they’re, you know, they’re they’re being they’re focused on how they’re how the people feel, right? How can employees feel?


Molly Mcgrath  [18:19]

It’s not even maybe it’s an absolute hard? Yes, if that’s how passionate I feel about it, because that’s one of the questions I’ll ask, as they will tell me a little bit about what your firm does in regards to quarterly strategic planning retreats, tell me what that your your lawyers doing for personal and professional development? Tell me what how your weekly team meetings, look, talk to me about the transparency, approachability and vulnerability of your leaders. And when you start asking a question that like you could see it in the Zoom Room like, Wow, no, no, no, we don’t do any of that. None of that. Like, let me tell you about the firm that I’m


Steve Fretzin  [18:58]

yeah. It’s it’s business as usual. And that’s not cutting it by any stretch. Now. What would you tell then? And I know that that some of my some of my audience are lawyers at firms, and some of them are our law firm leaders and people running firms, right. So what would you tell the law firm leaders about employee retention in this competitive like they, you need to just stop whatever you have going on in your life and you need to do these things? What are those things?


Molly Mcgrath  [19:24]

Yes, you need to stop immediately. It’s this simple. Number one, having a weekly stakeholders meeting and I’m happy to share any of my tools and agendas with you all and really, truly name it that where we are all stakeholders within this business, from sweat equity to mindset to the time we spend here, everybody’s opinion is valuable here. So having that where you’re starting off with wins, personal wins, professional wins, thank yous and things of that nature, then moving into your KPIs and things of that nature in the business. is having a daily huddle with your admin team, with the people that are on the frontlines answering the phones doing follow up client services, customer services, non attorney sales people, marketing coordinators would have you not necessarily your bookkeepers or your your closers, your attorneys and paralegals don’t need that for the most part, but having a daily huddle, treating it like your locker room huddle before you go on the Super Bowl playing field, what are your top three for the day? How did you do yesterday? Where did you get jammed up? Where do you need help, and really allowing people to communicate, versus the again, the lack of information that when the silence is in STEREO until there’s a problem. And lastly, I would say it even in this day and age, I’m saying, I used to say do quarterly employee growth plans. But if you have the luxury of having an office manager, professional, law firm, administrators, CEO, CEO, or what have you, it is a wonderful use of their time to do a monthly meeting, even if it’s just 30 minutes with every employee to check in with them on their growth plan. And again, I’m happy to share my tool that I have of the employee growth plan in really making certain in this day and age with such a volatile market to really make certain again, that your people are happy. And if they’re not happy, providing that safe place for them to speak their truth, and actually Listening, paying attention and following up on it to help move the needle in the right direction.


Steve Fretzin  [21:39]

Yeah, on top of those three things, which I think are all critical and important. Are there other social and charitable activities and things that that you’re seeing? Or that you’re recommending to kind of bring the team together? Because I think it’s a lot of people, they don’t want to leave a job where they feel like they have friends or where they feel they have a community? Yes. So how was that? What are some things you’re suggesting or seeing around that?


Molly Mcgrath  [22:05]

Yeah, you know, it’s really difficult because in this virtual and hybrid model, and things of that nature, obviously, team building events, Napa, in my experience, a lot of times employees are not necessarily jazzed about doing that, because they have kids, they have to pick up their other family obligations, they’re already working late. That’s great. If you already have those in place, if you have nothing in place, my recommendation is that you actually shut down and go off campus and go away for I just had a firm, they just came back from Costa Rica, where they all went with just their spouses. And they did some business building had the spouses part of it, they did golfing events, they all did massages, things of that nature. They also brought in an outside coach that came in and did some personal development with them. So if you can go off campus, get out of your office, even if you just want to go to a hotel in your area for two nights, or what have you, or bring in a professional such as Steve, and really facilitate a team building retreat and things of that nature. I feel that those when you invest in coaching and your employees, that’s another thing that you can do, is having a coaching for the team members, where they’re all coming together weekly, monthly, what have you. In my experience, it goes a heck of a lot longer a longer way than doing bowling once a month on a Friday night from five to nine because people aren’t seeing their family as it is. Yeah. And


Steve Fretzin  [23:39]

I’ll just add to that, that, you know, if anyone is interested in taking me and my wife to Costa Rica, I’m very open to that idea and work on that. Let’s wrap things up with the last piece of this, which is employees in attorneys in general are I mean, I have another attorney as I’m talking to a lot of attorneys today. And he’s gotten, you know, five offers, like you said, he’s gotten recruiters calling him they’re calling him every day, because he’s got a book. He’s highly successful in his field, all of that. So what is it that employees and let’s just specifically lawyers, that they really want maybe more than money and perks?


Molly Mcgrath  [24:22]

Well, you know, I would think when I’m hearing from see you’re talking about associate attorneys, correct?


Steve Fretzin  [24:28]

No. There’s some are associates some are partner level, but they’re getting they’re getting, they’re getting called regularly.


Molly Mcgrath  [24:34]

Okay, great. So the number one question that I get, what’s the billable hour requirement? You know, they’re they’re very much and people say no, if it’s too high, or even in this day and age, if there even is one and it’s not because they don’t want to work. It’s just that it feels like a very rigid model, that so you know, the firms that have lower billable hour requirements and or None are absolutely getting those candidates attention. Absolutely. Another thing that they’re really looking for is some kind of flexibility within their schedule where they could have a remote or hybrid model. Some people want to come to the office every day, it’s not about that people do not want to come to the office, again, they want to know that they’re working with a firm, an employer that has flexibility. And it’s not rigid and my way or the highway, that you actually are progressive in your thinking. So they want to know that there’s a give and take, and there’s some flexibility within there. And the other thing that I am hearing consistently over and over again, which I’m just loving anymore in this day, and age attorneys want to be attorneys. So the number one question they’re asking about is tell me about this support staff, and the investment and the value within this court step, edit candidate strong guy, I’m, I’m laughing so hard to get this guy. And he’s asking powerful questions. He’s like, what’s the turnover rate with the legal assistants in the paralegals, what’s going on there? They’re actually asking about what are the billable hour requirements for the paralegals because they want to make certain they want to know that they have support, but they want to make certain that the paralegals and the legal assistants in the admin team are being taken care of as well, because they’re very conscious of them being burned out and not being valued.


Steve Fretzin  [26:28]

Yeah. It’s, it’s amazing that it’s come to this where where, you know, if you don’t have the proper support, Assistant, associate, paralegal, whatever, you end up doing all that stuff, as a senior lawyer as a tenure, 15, you know, your lawyer. And that’s not what you signed on for, right? You want to do the high level engaging work that you get paid, you know, four to $600 now, or whatever the number is to do. So it sounds like it’s really more about flexibility, lack of requirements in support than it is about oh, you’re gonna make X amount more than you are now. Yeah,


Molly Mcgrath  [27:03]

you know, it’s interesting, Steve, is I hardly ever, my recruiters and I ever get the question about what’s the partnership track, like, at all, it’s because they realize, by and large, I’m not saying this is a, I’m not being, you know, saying this everyone, but by and large, they’re smart enough to figure out, it’s just a carrot to dangle. And so what a lot of my law firms are doing now is talking about succession planning. And people are really excited about that. Listen, we invest in coaching, we invest in law, firm business development, and things that nature and eventually, I want to retire in 10 years, 15 years, 12 years, and I absolutely would love it, if my team can be my succession planning my exit strategy, that’s a heck of a lot more attractive than a 2% 10%. Attorney, you know, partnership, carrot,


Steve Fretzin  [28:00]

that’s really interesting. Well, listen, I think this is all, you know, really important topics to bring up, because everybody’s thinking about it, whether they’re in the middle of it with their firm, their, you know, their firm just lost a huge, you know, chunk of their of their people or an individual or support. Or if if somebody’s just, you know, wondering, you know, should I Is now a good time to jump ship or because the markets so good. I think they have to look at at all the things you’ve brought up as a relates to where they’re going to be happy and who’s really going to be supportive. What’s a what’s a better environment to be in? Is it the one you’re in? Or the one that you’re looking into? Absolutely, yeah. Well, thank you so much. So let me just bring up for a moment, the game changing book that you had submitted to me transitions? Yes. Okay. by William Bridges. Okay. Tell us about that. What Why did you submit that one?


Molly Mcgrath  [28:55]

Oh, I love it. That’s one of my favorite favorite books, when I was getting out of selling my shares in a partnership that I was in for 16 years. And whether you are losing associate, you’re getting out of a partnership, you’re buying a business, what have you. This book talks about every transition that we all go through as human beings, a process is the same. And my favorite takeaway from that book, and I recommend it so many attorneys, lot of my attorneys are buying practices, selling practices, things of that nature, getting out of partnerships. And what that book talks about is there’s a necessary step that when you are leaving something called the neutral zone. Net, most human beings just want to skip over that like, Okay, I’m running from or I’m running to, and let’s just get through this as quick as possible, and they don’t take the power of the pause. And that book actually systematizes what they call the neutral zone and walk us through, and I’ve had so many attorneys call me especially when they saw their law practice, it’s like, going through a divorce or you know, sending a kid off, or your last kid off to college, or whatever it is, there’s just this empty, hollow feeling that we all just want to go away as quick as possible. And not really look at it as an opportunity in this book is the best body of work that I’ve ever read, that really names that and gives you a process for how to navigate and facilitate in staying in that part of the process before you jump to the next thing.


Steve Fretzin  [30:34]

Yeah, and a number of the managing partners that I that I work with, have we’ve had discussions about about this topic, and I don’t think they had a good resource to work through. And I think this book might be a good one for me to send them as a as a holiday gift or something like that, or just to do it. Why not? Or maybe an introduction to you, and you can help them out a little bit to people. If people want to reach out to Molly, how do they get in touch,


Molly Mcgrath  [30:58]

the easiest way, go to our website, hiring and And there’s an opportunity to opt in there. And we drop a new podcast every Tuesday and a blog every Thursday, value packed and I really tried to do my best job of consistently speaking into the employees perspective, as well as the employers perspective to get everyone on the same playing field.


Steve Fretzin  [31:23]

Yeah, well, you do a great job and I appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom and I’m looking to continue our conversations and how we how we develop our relationship because I think we have a we’re off to a good start. Yes, thanks. Thank you. And hey, everybody listen to a really good stuff today is always but but today in particular, talking about the great resignation, whether you’re on the the management side or the employee side of a firm, you know, lots of things that you can think about now and I think hopefully you know, you’re getting some some some good tips from every show. It’s all about being that lawyer, someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker be safety. Well, we’ll talk again soon.


Narrator  [32:06]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes