Nathan Ohler: The Value of Legal Peer Advisory Groups

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Nathan Ohler discuss:

  • Moving past the status quo to something different.
  • Saving yourself pain and frustration by crowdsourcing your problems with peer advisory groups.
  • Topics that come up frequently in lawyer peer advisor groups.
  • Top benefits of peer advisor groups for the members.

Key Takeaways:

  • In peer groups, you can realize that your firm’s problems are not unique to you and those problems are solvable.
  • Goals and tactical plans are related but are not the same thing. You need to have a tactical plan in place to achieve your goals. It is 2% about the goal and 98% about the tactics and habits.
  • Finding and retaining talent now, both young attorneys and support staff, is different than it was in the past.
  • There are many different ways that peer groups or masterminds – not every type will work for every person, but there is a benefit in actively participating in these groups.

“It is just linking back to these problems, and getting solutions to them. Hearing what is working from my peers who are living something similar to what I’m living. And I want to hear a diversity of solutions. So then I can go internalize which of those I want to test out. That environment of being able to hear not just one example, but maybe 10 is really powerful.” —  Nathan Ohler

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Episode References: 

About Nathan Ohler: Nathan Ohler is the President/COO of Nuooly, an exclusive Community for experienced independent/small firm professionals, such as attorneys and accountants. With prior experience on Wall Street and as an executive of multi-billion dollar businesses, he now focuses on enabling Nuooly member success by facilitating peer connections and providing business assistance.

Connect with Nathan Ohler:  





Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

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Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hello, my Be That Lawyer friends. Before we dive in today’s show, I have a small favor to ask. My mission in the legal industry is to help legal professionals like you take law practice growth seriously. I hope you’re finding value in this podcast and it’s aiding you in growing your law practice. Now, it only takes a moment to make a positive impact on someone’s life.

[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: If you’re enjoying the show, please help us spread the word. A kind review or five star rating would go a long way in helping us reach more of your amazing colleagues. Thank you for your support and now, let’s get on to the show.

[00:00:35] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time, more efficiently. Greater results now, here’s your host steve fretson 

[00:00:57] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back.

[00:00:58] Steve Fretzin: It’s the be that lawyer with fretson podcast and just thrilled that you’re here Uh twice a week every week, uh for the last four or five years We’ve been putting on this show to help you to be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker You guys know my job is in doing business development coaching and training for lawyers and running peer advisory groups You And one thing we don’t talk enough about is the importance of peer mastermind types of groups And not just because i’m running one because and not just because nathan’s running one.

[00:01:28] Steve Fretzin: Hey, nathan, how you doing? All right but because it’s like many lawyers feel like they’re on an island and they don’t have a real opportunity outside of their firm to collaborate to learn to share and to really get uh Deep on subjects that could change the game for them as as lawyers growing You A law practice or a law firm.

[00:01:48] Steve Fretzin: So we’re going to jump in and have a lot of conversation about that and the value and the benefits and the takeaways, of course, have to start off Nathan with our quote of the show. And this is a really good one. This one I read twice and it was just like, Oh, I can’t wait to hear what you have to say about it.

[00:02:01] Steve Fretzin: And it is, um, people hide inside the walls of consistency to protect themselves from the troublesome consequences of thought. That’s, that’s, that’s deep, man. Yeah. 

[00:02:13] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, that’s one of my favorites. I used to have it posted up in my office wall. So like I would have, you know, employees come in and like grumble.

[00:02:22] Nathan Ohler: Somebody said, the rule is we can’t do this. And I would just. Point up at the sign. It’s like, Oh, you’re running into this issue where, like, people don’t want to do the hard thinking and they just they’ll use, hey, this is the way it’s always been done. Yeah, or this is this is the rules we have set up here.

[00:02:39] Nathan Ohler: And so it’s a, I like it because it’s a really eye opening quote about forcing you to think through, like, well, why are we doing something? And really, is that the right way? And what should be the right way? And really prompting people to. To break the status quo when it, when it makes sense. 

[00:02:55] Steve Fretzin: And isn’t that even maybe even more apropos for the law firm industry and not to pick on them, but absolutely slow moving 

[00:03:02] Nathan Ohler: ship.

[00:03:02] Nathan Ohler: For sure. And it’s, it’s particularly, I think, relevant to folks who have made this courageous decision to work for themselves or be at a smaller firm, probably their mindset, they were the ones in the bigger firms who had that mindset around, Hey, why does it have to be this way? I’m going to go make. And we hear from the solos or the independent firm attorneys we deal with, where that’s one of the biggest issues they had at their big firm as a cultural issue is.

[00:03:32] Nathan Ohler: Hey, I used to hear all the time. This is just the way things are done and almost by definition, the people we interact with are the ones pushing back against that. Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:03:41] Steve Fretzin: Well, and I’m one of my favorite movies is Moneyball for a number of reasons, but there’s a line in there, you know, adapt or die.

[00:03:47] Steve Fretzin: And I always think back to that because there’s still law firms being run by. You know, the tyrannical managing partner with the massive ego and nobody knows what their comp is until it’s, it’s bonus day at the end of the year. And like, how is that even existing today? I can’t even imagine, but it does.

[00:04:05] Nathan Ohler: Yeah. No, absolutely. And yeah, this is a quote where it’s like. It’s about the people pushing back against that exact type of thing or at least asking the question Why does it and should it be this way and and if not being constructive and that cause of 

[00:04:20] Steve Fretzin: yeah 

[00:04:21] Nathan Ohler: Well, what does make sense or i’m choosing for myself to be in a different environment or choose a different path?

[00:04:28] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, or even get away from the billable hour I mean, there’s so much whether it’s legal tech or just people that are trying to figure out how do we You provide services differently, still make great money, but, but change what the status quo and the way things have always been done to something new and unique and different.

[00:04:45] Steve Fretzin: And I think that, you know, that’s going to eventually, you know, take over. It’s just, it’s just, again, a very slow moving, uh, boat. But, uh, yeah, Nathan, uh, Nathan Oler, you’re the president of Newly and we, we met and just had, I think one of the best conversations and, and just, I don’t know if it’s because we share so much in common around the peer advisory groups or just because our personalities gel, but really is, I was really happy and excited to get you on the show.

[00:05:11] Steve Fretzin: And, um, I’d love for you to just share a little bit about your background because you’re, you’re not a lawyer like me. I’m not a lawyer, right? We’re both not lawyers, but we’re both in the legal space. I think you’re in and out of legal space a little bit. I’m, I’m more, I think you, you’ve got, you, you also work with CPAs.

[00:05:26] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, exactly. And other professional service providers servicing the business community. 

[00:05:30] Steve Fretzin: Right, right, right. But legal is, is, is still a big part of your life. Yeah. So give us, give us that Reader’s Digest. 

[00:05:37] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, for sure. So my background is prior to doing this business. I had worked on Wall Street early in my career.

[00:05:44] Nathan Ohler: I then went to business school and worked in large Fortune 500s where I was a user of legal and professional services and now really dedicate everything I do to working with this community of professional service providers who made this, like we talked about earlier, made the courageous leap to be independent, whether that’s solo or at a small firm.

[00:06:04] Nathan Ohler: Yeah. And we work to enable them in that career choice. And that can include connecting with other gears. Like, and we’ll talk about that coming up, I’m sure, as well as helping them run a better practice. And that’s what I’m passionate about. And that’s what I focus on that. 

[00:06:20] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, right on. And, uh, What just, just so people know what newly is and what you do exactly, just, just, yeah, give us that, that as well.

[00:06:27] Nathan Ohler: Absolutely. Yeah. So newly is a community for experienced, independent, or solo professionals who are business focused. And the core of what we’re doing is we talk about independence without trade offs and enabling this journey of being outside of a large firm setting, but not having to make trade offs about the things people liked.

[00:06:49] Nathan Ohler: And the two big places we plug in and assist people in our community is Helping them find each other and connect with each other as well as giving them the tools and the resources to run a more efficient and better run small firm. 

[00:07:05] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and you know, the idea that, you know, lawyers know not everything, but they try to know everything and try to do everything themselves or figure it out.

[00:07:16] Steve Fretzin: Is it’s becoming more and more challenging. There’s just too much to know. And I think the idea that lawyers can get together with each other, some that have more experience in, in certain areas and then some in others and collaborate and whether it’s having a great facilitator like you and I, or whether it’s, The fact that, um, the topics are really relevant to them.

[00:07:38] Steve Fretzin: There’s just, I think, a lot of value in this. So, so let’s talk a little bit about the value of peer advisory masterminds, whatever. There’s a, you know, half a dozen names for 

[00:07:47] Nathan Ohler: that. Yeah, for sure. So we see this, Within our membership and our group of folks we work with all the time, people, on the first part, people feel isolated when they’ve made this choice.

[00:08:01] Nathan Ohler: And so they, they think the issues they’re seeing are going through are potentially unique to them. And so there’s some value in just getting exposure. Some of it’s just the catharsis of realizing, oh, there’s a, another community of people out there like me, you. Dealing with the same issues and not every issue is magically solvable, but hey, just to know that I’m not alone.

[00:08:22] Nathan Ohler: And that we find is really powerful for our membership. And then within that, a lot of those issues are solvable and have in many cases already been solved by somebody else. And it’s a matter of figuring out who has done that and getting exposure. And for us, we see just the broader, you know, at a certain credential and experience level, but the.

[00:08:46] Nathan Ohler: You know, getting exposure to a diversity of experiences, learnings, knowledge could be geography practice areas. Just the more diversity that you can bring, the higher the probability is that you’re going to learn something you didn’t know before. In that setting, and our members are finding, and we’re seeing it across the membership.

[00:09:06] Nathan Ohler: It’s just powerful environment to be in both. Emotionally from the I’m not alone standpoint. And tactically, I’m learning a bunch of things. From other people in a way that’s efficient. So I’m not having to reinvent every wheel. Yeah. Along this, you know, really difficult journey. 

[00:09:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. There’s a legal tech that you don’t know about, or there’s a, a system for how to keep track of and follow up with people or there’s whatever it might be, but you know, someone else is using it or doing it and you’re just not privy to that information.

[00:09:39] Steve Fretzin: So you’re just struggling and Trying to figure it out yourself when it’s already been done. Like business development, I have a process for it that takes people through every aspect of how to do it effectively, efficiently, wasting no time getting to the end. Yet most lawyers just want to muscle through it and figure it out on their own.

[00:09:56] Steve Fretzin: That’s great. If they can do it, do it. If you’re successful at that, do it. There’s other people that say, you know what, I just would rather, you know, I’d rather buy the solution. And save myself years of pain or save myself years of frustration Uh, just just getting the getting to the answers. So I think crowdsourcing in in this way is very similar Uh where we don’t have to step in as facilitators and solve everything we can kind of facilitate those conversations and let them solve it between themselves 

[00:10:25] Nathan Ohler: Absolutely, and it could be the whole way along that value chain of what you’re working on within your firm right on the front end You How am I sourcing and finding and converting clients to servicing them to all the back office and in billing?

[00:10:42] Nathan Ohler: And, you know, we see it in our membership where some folks want to learn to do all of that. And whether it’s from peers or from experts like yourself and in many, and, you know, crowdsourcing then and the peer interactions is a great way to do that. And in some cases, it’s They, they don’t want to become an expert in every step in their, you know, the work that goes into their practice.

[00:11:06] Nathan Ohler: And so being able to just get the answer from somebody who’s already figured out whether that’s a peer or an expert can be really valuable and satisfying because a lot of folks have made this choice to run the type of firm they’re running because they wanted more control or a lifestyle change, or do more of the kind of work they were interested in.

[00:11:26] Nathan Ohler: And if you’re. Hate sending out invoices, but you’re having to spend a bunch of time doing that. And you just don’t know about a faster solution. Sometimes you’re just like, Hey, I want someone to give me that answer about what’s the faster solution. So I can get back to the aspects that I enjoy and are the reasons I do that.

[00:11:42] Nathan Ohler: So yeah, I couldn’t agree more. It’s a powerful tool. 

[00:11:46] Steve Fretzin: So it might be interesting to share between you and I, since we’re, we’re, you know, in similar spaces, different, but similar, and it’ll continue to come out how, as we discuss, but what are the, the topics that you’re finding keep coming up within your groups, the things that, that, that are really troubling them, that they’re finding difficult, that they’re struggling with?

[00:12:04] Nathan Ohler: For sure. So we definitely see stuff along that whole, whole value chain perspective from the front end, all the way to the back end, but within that, You know, really developing tactical executable plans, um, and that start with goals and ended and here are the things I need to do to get to those goals. A lot.

[00:12:25] Nathan Ohler: We’re finding a lot of our folks have just. Really not had training on how to do that before. They’ve been pretty reactive in their careers and now they have to. You know, they have the epiphany of I’m now a small business owner in addition to being a lawyer and that can be painful for some folks and say, okay, well, how do I do?

[00:12:45] Nathan Ohler: How do I proactively run this business? I’m in charge of 

[00:12:48] Steve Fretzin: yeah, I was going to just jump in and say the or the funny thing is like they worked at a big firm where the big firm said, Hey, you got to turn in your plan for the year. And it was this. You know form they filled out with the names of their clients and how they’re going to spend their budget and then it was like Immediately shelved as soon as they started their year.

[00:13:05] Nathan Ohler: No, absolutely And just not often at it. It was in often they were more 

[00:13:10] Steve Fretzin: goals. Yeah, right It wasn’t you just said the word it wasn’t tactical. It wasn’t tactical and what do I have to do today? Tomorrow this week this month to get where I need to go over the year 

[00:13:21] Nathan Ohler: Absolutely. And that’s one of the things that comes up in our, our groups quite a bit is trying to talk about the difference between goals, which we think of as being objectives or outcomes and.

[00:13:34] Nathan Ohler: The tactical plan of your actions and the things i’m actually going to do and how i’m going to spend my time And even just that framework is something that a lot of our folks have not had exposure to and so Having really good discussion. So that that’s one of the you 

[00:13:49] Steve Fretzin: know What before before we move on to the next one nathan?

[00:13:51] Steve Fretzin: I just want to take one more minute on this because we talked about a book atomic habits And I know there’s a book you’re going to bring up at the end Uh when we do our game changing book, but are you also finding that it’s less about You Like goals and objectives at the, you know, like what’s the big overarching thing and more about the habits, more about the tactics and actions that happen on a day to day basis.

[00:14:13] Nathan Ohler: Absolutely. It’s, I would say in my opinion, 2 percent about the goals and 90 percent about the systems and processes. And they can be as, as fancy or as simple as is relevant for your business. And I love, I was, I probably won’t get this right, but that quote in atomic habits of, right, you don’t rise to your goals.

[00:14:32] Nathan Ohler: You sink to the level of your systems. 

[00:14:34] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. 

[00:14:35] Nathan Ohler: Our members live that all the time. So it is. It’s about what are the things I’m doing? And so much of it is carving out time and being proactive about here are the actions I need to take to get to those goals. And I’m not going to sit around and wait for my calendar to magically open up where I have six hours free on a day, because who has that?

[00:14:58] Nathan Ohler: So it’s like, Hey, I need to take control of my time and my effort. And those are the kinds of discussions we get into. 

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[00:17:04] Nathan Ohler: Yeah. So, you know, really the, the right people to support, you know, so there’s that whole chain of things people need to do to run their firm, but, you know, outside of that, like what are the other right resources and people that are going to enable them to find the right client service, their clients learn and get better at running their business.

[00:17:26] Nathan Ohler: Their business. And as we all know, it is one of the things that’s really nice at a large firm is you have all those people in one place as soon as you choose to go off and in a bit of a smaller environment, you own a lot more of the onus of finding the right people within your network or building your network to have those people available to you.

[00:17:46] Nathan Ohler: And we know that’s it’s time consuming and it’s hard. Um, and so that’s a topic that comes up a lot 

[00:17:52] Steve Fretzin: and I’ll I’ll add one piece to that and we’re not going to get ourselves into trouble with this. I hope that a lot of a lot of the managing partners are complaining about the work ethic and the just the brain power.

[00:18:05] Steve Fretzin: I think of the younger generation coming out of law school like they’re they’re really You Scratching their heads as to their ability to handle some of the executive functioning, the project management, and I don’t know what to make of that. I’m, I’m, you know, I have a teenager. So I’m dealing with for executive functioning on a daily basis.

[00:18:24] Steve Fretzin: Um, the fact that he’s been away for a week and will for the next seven weeks, like, Every cabinet door is closed. There’s no socks on the floor. Like my wife and I are smiling at each other again. Love the kid, but geez, it sure is nice that he could take a break from us and vice versa. But is that, is that something that’s coming up to like just the different generations and how they’re kind of having challenges with each other?

[00:18:46] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that coupled with generally in this market, right, the economy is pretty strong. And so folks, that’s one of within that bigger people bucket. The sub piece of finding and retaining the right people for your firm who are talented is one of the most common and repeated things we hear in our, from our members and in these masterminds.

[00:19:13] Nathan Ohler: It’s a difficult environment to even identify the right people. And then in many cases, because of these generational differences. Figuring out the levers to pull to engage them and retain them are different levers now than they were 10 years ago and 20 years ago. And so we, we see folks struggling with, with trying to think through that and having to be creative and yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:37] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think one that sort of fits in with what you were sharing that, that, you know, it’s, it’s, it may not come out as time management being the issue. But ultimately, that’s what it comes down to for many of them because they don’t have the time to hire somebody, they don’t have the time to do business development, they don’t have the time to do certain things and create the processes and the systems that allow them to become more sustainably successful.

[00:20:01] Steve Fretzin: And so I’ve always been, whether it’s Atomic Habits or Getting Things Done by David Allen, whatever it might be, I’m like, This is like, this must be the most important thing for lawyers today, maybe beyond even business development or other stuff, because if you don’t have your time under control, then it’s controlling you, and you’re in your inbox all day, and you’re being controlled by your clients, and you’re being this, that, and the other, and so I’m continually working with lawyers on that, on the coaching and training side, but then it’s continually coming up in our groups that, that, you know, that they’re just not as tight on the time management as they need to be.

[00:20:34] Nathan Ohler: No, 100 percent and it’s, I think we’ve heard different hypotheses. I’m sure everyone has about why that’s the case. Um, you know, if it’s just more control through, you know, from their parents along the way, but, yeah, the, the ability of, of younger folks to step in without that training and pick up the time management piece is difficult.

[00:20:53] Nathan Ohler: And then we certainly see in our membership. Well, our individual members have developed that they had to over time. They don’t haven’t necessarily been trained on how to teach that to somebody else. And it’s a very different thing is, you know, to know how to do it. So, and so we see, that’s a, that’s a real challenge of of.

[00:21:11] Nathan Ohler: As people bring on support staff, if they don’t already, or haven’t intuited or built those time management skills themselves. You know, how do you pass that along in a constructive, useful environment? And that’s a real challenge. 

[00:21:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, so what are the, so then let’s, we’ve talked about some problems, let’s, let’s talk about some solutions.

[00:21:31] Steve Fretzin: Um, what would you say are the top one or two things that, that peer advisory mastermind groups, uh, do for your members? And I’ll kick in with, with my thoughts on it when, when you’re done, but that where they, where they, um, they just can breathe again, or they can just, just, uh, where they’re able to, to really develop the law practice in a more efficient way and a more interesting fun way.

[00:21:54] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, absolutely. Well, so some of it is just is linking back to these problems and like you said, getting solutions to them and hearing, okay, what is work from my peers who are living something similar to what I’m living? And I want to hear, like, a diversity of solutions, so then I can go, you know, internalize for myself, which of those I want to test out, try, um, or, or ones I’ve already tried that I know won’t work.

[00:22:22] Nathan Ohler: And so that, that environment of being able to hear not just one example, but maybe 10 Is really powerful and been useful for him is in 

[00:22:31] Steve Fretzin: is there is there a way because I know you have systems right and how you’re running these and facilitating these and I want to share one that I’m doing but but I want to hear yours first, which is what’s an example of way that you’re running a group that allows people to learn from each other and that facilitates that that education 

[00:22:49] Nathan Ohler: for sure.

[00:22:49] Nathan Ohler: So we do it. Yeah, a couple different ways and I don’t think there’s any one right way, but. So one is people sharing specific experiences they’ve had. But doing it in a way where it’s not about necessarily giving advice, because that’s hard, you don’t know other people’s, but sharing your own experiences in both the good and the bad.

[00:23:10] Nathan Ohler: So hearing what didn’t work for somebody else, we’re finding is probably even more powerful than hearing what did work for them, because it allows you to cut stuff off your list. Another way we’ve tried in some groups that has been really powerful is for folks to bring, just like you’re talking about books that have been meaningful or powerful.

[00:23:29] Nathan Ohler: Irrelevant for you having folks bring resources to bear in these groups that have been useful for them, how they’ve tactically implemented things from it. So, like, we talked about atomic habit that comes up a lot in different things like that. And that’s a powerful way for someone that have said, well, I’ve only read 1, 1 book in the last month on my end.

[00:23:48] Nathan Ohler: But I’m in a group where people are talking about 20 different resources. And so you get a lot of leverage when people are sharing about other learnings or, or points of interest they have. 

[00:23:59] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Something that we’ve been doing for, you know, for years has been called the spotlight and essentially it’s one, one member brings a problem to the table.

[00:24:08] Nathan Ohler: Yeah. That’s great. 

[00:24:09] Steve Fretzin: Ferrets it out like talks about it as long as they’re able to without boring us Then we don’t now every lawyer in the room Here’s these problems and immediately wants to solve and I absolutely Will beat them down if they do it I go that’s not what we’re doing We’re going to take the time to ask questions.

[00:24:25] Steve Fretzin: So we ask everybody ask questions We ferret it out further further further and once we’ve expired all the questions Then everybody’s chomping at the bit to give their two cents about what are the suggestions we end up with like let’s say somewhere between 8 and 12 suggestions And the person that’s in the spotlight is absolutely floored because they didn’t know how to resolve it at all.

[00:24:44] Steve Fretzin: And now they’ve got 12 ideas and I have them select from the 12, what do they think resonated with them? And then what can they actually accomplish between now and the next meeting? Just typically a month. And that just that exercise of putting people through that spotlight has been instrumental in someone deciding on taking managing partner role or dropping a client or, you know, doing something different with how they’re hiring associates, like whatever the problem is, they’re walking away with something that You know, crowdsourced and answer on a variety of solutions that were potentially game changing for them.

[00:25:19] Steve Fretzin: So I think it’s this kind of stuff that you’re doing. I’m doing that. It makes it makes it really fun and and and sort of like life altering for some in how they’re how they’re rectifying issues that maybe have been haunting them for years. 

[00:25:33] Nathan Ohler: Absolutely. I think it’s so powerful to see people hear an idea or come figure out an answer that they either would never have gotten to on their own, or they’re seeing, I might have gotten there on their own, but because of this environment, I’m getting there in a quarter of the time and a lot less painfully.

[00:25:51] Nathan Ohler: And our, our members appreciate both of those aspects. Yeah, I love that. Spotlight content. That’s a great way to do 

[00:25:57] Steve Fretzin: it. And is there a networking component to what your work, how you’re, you know, working with everybody? 

[00:26:04] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, absolutely. So our community has over 500 people in it. And within that, the members are able to connect with each other.

[00:26:11] Nathan Ohler: We do some. You know, proactive networking events, but the members are able to find and be visible to each other and interact through search functionality and things like that. Whenever they want, they can that kind of pot is always stirring all the time in the background and then they’re supplemented in the specific mastermind peer groups where that’s.

[00:26:33] Nathan Ohler: They’re kind of, you know, small group within the bigger community and that they hear and meet and get to know really well on a repeat basis. So you have the really kind of broad and less deep type of relationships. And then the really, you know, much more deep and focused relationships and people. And I have a nice balance of both.

[00:26:52] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really interesting. So, so sort of wrapping it up before we get to our game changing book. Um, I think you and I just both agree that there’s a lot of different consultants. There’s a lot of different programs. There’s a lot of different things out there. I’m a big provisors guy and you know, people think that mastermind or peer advisory is provisors.

[00:27:10] Steve Fretzin: It’s absolutely not. Uh, this is a very, I mean, there is a networking component, but this is, A lot of sharing experiences, a lot of learning, a lot of, you know, very, um, uh, you know, fam sort of family style, you know, trust in a confidential environment and things like that. And I just, um, how would you sort of summarize it so people understand that this, you know, is, is a unique, you know, kind of a unique type of program?

[00:27:37] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, absolutely. No, great question. So it’s particularly unique because. Right. Everybody who’s involved is vetted partner level, right? So anytime you’re interacting with someone, the initial work you do to figure out just like, does this person have the kind of background that’s relevant for what I’m doing?

[00:27:56] Nathan Ohler: That’s what we’ve tried to solve. We often think of ourselves as right. We we’re specifically not for everybody. We’re for a very specific group of people who typically have prior big firm experience, but are either solo or small firm now. And it allows them to, to know, Hey, I’m only interacting with other people who are relevant and can help me out directly or help my, help my clients.

[00:28:20] Nathan Ohler: And again, like that balance of, I get the power of. The full hundreds and hundreds of people that I can leverage, but I’m also developing these deep relationships for people who are particularly useful or relevant within my world and things I’m trying to learn. 

[00:28:36] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, really, really great stuff there, Nathan, and the game changing book that you brought up as soon as you said the name of it.

[00:28:43] Steve Fretzin: A lot of things went through my head, but I, but, but, but I really wanted you to explain, because this is a book I’m, I’m seriously considering getting. And I don’t read a hundred books, uh, you know, a hundred self help books of a year or anything like that. I probably handpick four or five that I, you know, three, four or five that I think are really good.

[00:28:59] Steve Fretzin: This one’s called sleep. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

[00:29:02] Nathan Ohler: Sure. Yeah. It’s called sleep by Nick little hails and similar to like atomic habits. It is somebody who’s taken and dug into the scientific research and then synthesize it for us normal humans and made it really actionable. And I was just, it blew me away.

[00:29:19] Nathan Ohler: So many of the things I thought I knew or had been taught along the way about sleep. Right? So you need eight hours of sleep You know, you, you should always wake up at this time or that time, or any of the things turned out to mostly not be true. And this guy works with most of the top, like athletes in the world and sports firms now and different things like that.

[00:29:39] Nathan Ohler: And so for me, it totally changed where you can like so many things you learn in life, you can do less higher quality and get a lot more out of it. And so it’s just, it’s full of like really great tips and tools for, Getting better sleep, more of really more efficient, high quality and shorter periods of time.

[00:29:59] Nathan Ohler: And anyways, I, it’s totally changed. I told you I, I bored my poor wife, but it’s, it’s an eye opener and I definitely recommend 

[00:30:07] Steve Fretzin: if you make it, if it makes you feel any better, I’m going to get it. And then I’m going to bore my wife with it. So I already, I, it’s funny cause I already bored her this morning talking about how much I moved during my sleep.

[00:30:17] Steve Fretzin: And is that affecting my sleep, the level of my sleep? And if you look it up on Google, guess what? Gives you a hundred different answers. They’re all, you know, they’re all saying yes and no. Uh, crazy. Well, listen, let’s wrap up with thanking our wonderful sponsors. We’ve got Lawmatics who’s just crushing it on, on helping law firms automate the way that they’re going to, you know, get their invoices out and, and, and get their contracts signed.

[00:30:40] Steve Fretzin: And I’ve got everybody on ACH. I don’t really take any checks and I’m automating my follow up. So I don’t have to reach out to everybody. It’s automatically happening. So can’t talk highly enough about Lawmatics. And then of course, get staffed up. So, you know, time management is a beast and we’re not finding the right people to hire.

[00:30:56] Steve Fretzin: Let law, let um, get staffed up, do it for you. And you get this amazing VA and probably South America or Mexico, right? And, and just really, um, you know, educated and able to, to speak multiple languages and, and help you do what you got to do. So that’s what I’m up to. And of course, shout out to Rankings IO, our newest sponsor.

[00:31:15] Steve Fretzin: Um, Nathan, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to learn more about you and Nuuly, what’s the best way for them to reach you? 

[00:31:21] Nathan Ohler: Yeah, absolutely. So our, our, you know, Nuuly is how you pronounce it, how you spell it is N U O U L Y and Nuuly. com is our website and people can visit us there. And then people are welcome to email me directly.

[00:31:33] Nathan Ohler: It’s just Nathan at newly. com. So very simple, please reach out anytime. 

[00:31:38] Steve Fretzin: Awesome, man. Well, I, I want to keep, you know, and I, I say this, you know, fully embracing that, uh, we have a lot in common and I think there’s a lot of things we could do. There’s people that aren’t a fit for me and aren’t a fit for you.

[00:31:50] Steve Fretzin: And we got to keep that going, but I just think we, we were just very much alike in, in our drive for what we’re doing and how we’re helping the legal market. And so let’s keep in touch, man. I’d like that. 

[00:31:59] Nathan Ohler: Absolutely. I love what you’re doing and I’m, I’m passionate about helping folks in this market.

[00:32:04] Steve Fretzin: Awesome. Awesome. Listen, thank you. And thank you everybody for spending some time with Nathan. I today on the, be that lawyer with Fretzin podcast. We are continuing to help you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker, and we look to have you come back if you’re loving the show, don’t be shy, tell people about it, it’s okay, and also give us a kind review on whatever format you’re on.

[00:32:26] Steve Fretzin: That’s it. Everybody, take care. Be safe, be well. We will talk again very soon.

[00:32:34] Narrator: Thanks for listening To be that Lawyer life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.