Nermin Jasani: Planning for Success in Your Law Firm

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Nermin Jasani discuss:

  • Setting and implementing the plan to achieve your goals.
  • Understanding what is realistic for a quarterly goal.
  • Listing out the micro steps and adding them to your calendar for achievable goals.
  • Monitoring your metrics that move the needle forward.
  • Utilizing time and calendars to make your day work for you.

Key Takeaways:

  • Give yourself milestones along the way to keep you on track to achieving your goals.
  • The goal with planning is to make sure you aren’t burning yourself out while still making forward progress.
  • Leverage the tools and resources at your fingertips that you’re already using to help make your goals come to fruition.
  • You won’t know where you are unless you track the data. The data gives you accountability and allows you to gamify your goals.

“Give 100% of yourself to that one thing. Then when you achieve that, you’re going to feel the motivation, the fuel, the confidence to go to the next big project you want to tackle.” —  Nermin Jasani

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Episode References: 

About Nermin Jasani: Nermin Jasani is a law firm advisor for solo and small law firms who want to grow their law firm by focusing on their profitability, their team, and their time spent doing those tedious (and sometimes hated) admin tasks.

Nermin was a former law firm owner working with hedge funds on Wall Street and is now a full-time law firm growth consultant.

Connect with Nermin Jasani:  




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Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, before we get to the show, I wanted to share another amazing event we have coming up called Bootstrap Your Marketing to Build Your Personal Brand with me and my friend Ashley Robinson. We’re going to be talking about cost effective ways to grow your personal brand. It’s on March 22nd.

[00:00:13] Steve Fretzin: You can sign up by going to Fretzin. com slash events. See you there and enjoy the show.

[00:00:23] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:45] Steve Fretzin: Well hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of Be That Lawyer. We are here twice a week to help you be that lawyer. Someone who’s competent, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. If you’ve been a listener for a while, uh, please do us a favor and tell other lawyers about it. We’re trying to spread the word and help as many lawyers as possible around the world, and if you’re new to the show, um, while you’re in for a treat today, because we, as usual, have a phenomenal guest and Nerman is waiting in the wings.

[00:01:10] Steve Fretzin: How you doing Nerman?

[00:01:11] Nermin Jasani: Hi, I’m doing great. Steve. How are you?

[00:01:13] Steve Fretzin: I’m doing well. I was telling you as we. Launched into this, uh, podcast that I’ve just had kind of a nonstop provisors, then into my weekly class, then into this. And I haven’t had a chance to breathe. So I’m going to let you do most of the talking so I can just take a nap.

[00:01:28] Steve Fretzin: And, uh, I’ll just, if you see me sleeping over here, it’s not cause you’re boring. It’s cause I’m exhausted already before, uh, before, uh, even 10 o’clock AM. Um, really, really great to see you. And I’m just so excited with what we’re going to cover today because most attorneys. They’re not doing any of this stuff and we’re really talking about, we’re going to get into the weeds about, about planning.

[00:01:47] Steve Fretzin: How are you planning to be successful, whether you’re a solo, a small firm or at a big firm, either way, it doesn’t matter. We’re going to start off with our quote of the show, which is a great lead in for today. A goal without a plan is just a wish and talk to us a little bit about that. Quote, and also welcome to the show.

[00:02:04] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, absolutely. So that is one of my favorite quotes by one of my favorite authors of The Little Prince. If you haven’t read it, go get it. It’s a cute little book. You can read it with your kids. It’s just absolutely adorable. But yes, a goal without a plan is just a wish. And how many lawyers do we know, Steve, who they’ll come to you and they’ll say, I want to make a million dollars this year.

[00:02:22] Nermin Jasani: And you’re like, great. How are you going to get there? And they just kind of look at you, deadpan, and then they’re like, I don’t know, you’re supposed to tell me, right? That’s your job, I guess. How am I supposed to get there? No one’s ever asked me that. I have never thought about that. I just thought I would get a billboard or do a TV ad or, you know, do whatever to get to that million.

[00:02:41] Nermin Jasani: And what that’s lacking is a plan. And so many attorneys, especially right now, because it’s still the beginning of the year, they will come and say, You know what? I have this goal of, you know, 5 new offices. I’m going to expand into a different practice area. I’m going to do this. I’m going to do that very lofty goals, but there’s no planning behind it.

[00:03:04] Nermin Jasani: No strategy, no nothing, or they’ll go out and they’ll hire someone who will give them a strategy on a piece of paper, but it doesn’t get implemented. So that’s what I’m talking about is you got to have a plan. You got to know what you’re going to do. Next Monday, then the Monday after that, then the Friday after that, to actually make sure that you are going to achieve this goal of yours.

[00:03:27] Nermin Jasani: And you got to make sure you’ve got milestones set up along the way so that if your goal is to build a new website. You’re not just going to wake up tomorrow and go shopping for the suit that you’re going to wear in your website photos, right? Like, that would be silly. That’s the last thing that you might end up doing or one of the last things.

[00:03:44] Nermin Jasani: So you want to get milestones along the way to keep you motivated to make sure that you are on track for hitting those goals.

[00:03:51] Steve Fretzin: So I should stop telling lawyers to just wish harder? Is that a, that’s not where we’re going with this? Wish harder.

[00:03:57] Nermin Jasani: Manifest harder. Yes. Write about it in your journal. You know, like pray for it.

[00:04:02] Nermin Jasani: You know, all the things, right? Set up that dream board. You like the dream board? Yes. Yes. The vision boards that I see a lot of attorneys having. Yes. Yes. Once it’s on the vision board, oh, then you don’t need to do anything else. I mean,

[00:04:13] Steve Fretzin: it’s done. It’ll manifest itself. And that’s how everybody, that’s why everyone in the world is so successful today.

[00:04:19] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, exactly. I don’t know. I don’t know anyone. So that’s what you

[00:04:22] Nermin Jasani: do. Right? You’ve got a vision board right behind you. Right now. That’s that’s what it

[00:04:26] Steve Fretzin: is. I just keep staring at that portion, man. It’s going to happen. I know it. So let’s start at the beginning. You know, there’s. Well, first of all, let’s start at the beginning beginning, which is your background and then let’s lead into into helping lawyers figure out this whole planning business.

[00:04:40] Steve Fretzin: But how did you get into this? Because that’s not that’s not your background, correct?

[00:04:44] Nermin Jasani: No, it’s not my background. So I am a lawyer by trade. I’m still licensed to practice in New York. I had a firm on Wall Street, and I did what a lot of your clients do, Steve, which is. I just hoped that I would give such good service to my clients that they would then refer me to other clients and then I’d have like, 100 clients and I would have a book full of business.

[00:05:05] Nermin Jasani: And that did not happen, and there was no 1 at the time when I was practicing. There weren’t even podcasts at time when I was practicing. For me to listen in and have a mentor tell me, no, you have to go out and network. No, you should consider doing a website. No, you should consider doing these things. No, 1 had told me that so that’s where I started.

[00:05:25] Nermin Jasani: I had my own failures as a law firm owner. I’m very open about it. I charge little to nothing. For those services I provided, I made, like, the Holy grail of all the mistakes that you can make. And now I’m on the other side, helping lawyers. Not make the mistakes that I made, and part of that includes planning.

[00:05:43] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And was there some moment where you blip from one mindset to another or to get into your business?

[00:05:50] Nermin Jasani: Yeah. There were a couple of things that happened. I don’t know if it was necessarily one big aha moment, but in my practice, I was doing a lot of hedge fund regulation and hedge fund compliance. And it felt a lot like, okay, so I’m just helping you negotiate down from a 20 million fine to a 10 million fine.

[00:06:09] Nermin Jasani: Didn’t really feel like I was doing anything. You know, doing good and that was really why I wanted to go to law school. I didn’t believe in the respect of the field and the ability to make change. So that was thing. Number 1 thing. Number 2 was. I like the business side more than I like the actual doing the legal stuff.

[00:06:26] Nermin Jasani: So I was like. This is really interesting. Can I see what’s there? And lo and behold, there was a whole market for people who needed help with running a law firm and. That’s really how it happened.

[00:06:38] Steve Fretzin: That was it. That was it. So, you know, look, I, I’ve been teaching lawyers for over 15 years and the first meeting we have is, is always a planning session.

[00:06:48] Steve Fretzin: It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a blooding letting exercise, but more importantly, I want them to have a written constructive plan. Where do lawyers typically go wrong with planning? What are the top three, you know, on the list?

[00:07:00] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, I would say that they will bite off more than they can chew. So let’s say it’s Q1 and they’re going to try to do a new website.

[00:07:07] Nermin Jasani: They’re going to have a new TikTok strategy and they’re going to onboard 10 new employees and set up five new offices. And they’re like, Oh, yeah, that’s that’s cool. I’m going to get it all done in Q1. You can get 1 of those things maybe in Q1. Well, right? Like, you might do all of those things, like, not very well, but.

[00:07:27] Nermin Jasani: You can only do 1 of those things and so I think that’s 1 of the biggest mistakes when it comes to planning is you’d fit too much in right? Because you’re so used to accomplishing and achieving and getting things done in such a high level. And, you know, burning, you know, both ends of the candle and, you know, exhausting yourself, but the goal with planning is to make sure that you’re not burning yourself out.

[00:07:50] Nermin Jasani: So we want to always be aware of that. The word that’s right around the corner. Because our jobs are demanding, there’s a lot of uncertainty with what you do on a day to day basis and adding now all these additional things to your plate is just going to get you to burn out faster. So you want to spread things out a lot more and even more than you think that you should.

[00:08:12] Nermin Jasani: You’re like, if you might be thinking to yourself, oh, yeah, I can get this done by next week. Give yourself another week. It’s okay. Don’t set these arbitrary deadlines for yourself.

[00:08:21] Steve Fretzin: But I think your, your emphasis on don’t try to get, don’t try to do too much. I think what I try to go for is high, but achievable.

[00:08:29] Steve Fretzin: Like let’s set goals that are high, but achievable. And you know, doubling your business, all right, there might be potential for that, but now opening offices and this, that, and the other and 10 other things, right? Like, it’s hard. Like, let’s focus. Let’s try to pick 1 direction to go and be successful than trying to split yourself between 5.

[00:08:48] Nermin Jasani: Exactly, like give 100 percent of yourself to that 1 thing and then when you achieve that, you’re going to feel the motivation, the fuel, the, the confidence to go to the next task that you’re going to give to yourself the next big project that you want to tackle. But if you give yourself 10 things, and you don’t do any of those, you are going to feel so bad about yourself.

[00:09:10] Nermin Jasani: And we all know lawyers have a lot of chatter in their brains. Around, I didn’t, I’m not good enough. I’m such an idiot. Look at this other lawyer. He got a C in torts, and I got an A, and how is he making more money than I am? Like, we get into all of that. So you really want to spread these tasks out, make them achievable, exactly how you said, Steve, and really just go easy on yourself.

[00:09:32] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So I think it’s either a lack of plan, like they don’t have a plan at all, so they’re just winging it, right? Then there’s the shooting too high and doing, trying to get too much or do too much. And what’s the, there was, is there another, like a third?

[00:09:46] Nermin Jasani: Yeah. So I would say the third is really, you want to get into listing up the tasks.

[00:09:51] Nermin Jasani: Every single task has about four different subtasks. And then those subtasks are going to have tasks under them. So again, going with a very simple example of a website, right? Like, what are the, the three big things that you need to get done? Inside of the website. Okay, so maybe it’s hiring the company.

[00:10:10] Nermin Jasani: It’s figuring out the budget and then it’s figuring out, like, what services you want to offer on your website. Maybe those are the top 3 things. Okay, so when it comes to hiring a website company, you’re not just going to probably Google who are the top website companies around me. You’re going to maybe ask a friend.

[00:10:29] Nermin Jasani: If you’re in a networking group, like provisors, you’re going to ask around and say, hey, how was your experience with such and such website builder? Or you might already have a colleague’s website that you’re like, that was really good. Who did that website? Like, I want my website to look like that. So those are just a couple of the how you take the big and chunk it down to the small and make it so small that, you know, when you’re going to reach out to.

[00:10:55] Nermin Jasani: Scott from providers who has great website that you’re like, hey. Who was your who was your person and then you’re going to set up the meeting with that person to. You know, explain what it is that you want, then you’ll go through a budget conversation, like. All those pieces are small, little pieces that need to come together.

[00:11:10] Nermin Jasani: But when you actually sit down. And list out those little mini steps. You can then add them to your calendar so that it’s achievable. It happens because it lives on in a calendar.

[00:11:23] Steve Fretzin: And that’s where we’re, we’re, we’re all day in our calendar. We’re all day in our email. And so leveraging those tools I think is, is really important.

[00:11:30] Steve Fretzin: And by the way, if you need a website and you want a great vendor, uh, to help you with that, Ashley at green cardigan marketing, everybody is the way to go. She has worked on my site. So if you go to frets and. com, you’ll check out all her great work. But, uh, so I just solved that problem. The, uh, but I love what you’re saying about tasks and that’s the thing is we, we can come up with goals.

[00:11:50] Steve Fretzin: We can even think about what our strategic direction is, but if it doesn’t relate to actionable, tactical things that I’m doing today, tomorrow, et cetera, then everything else just gets, it just goes away, goes to waste. So what do lawyers do wrong then when planning their day, their week, their month?

[00:12:11] Nermin Jasani: They don’t plan their day, their week, their month, they are, they are reactive.

[00:12:17] Nermin Jasani: They’re very reactive. Right? So when I was a lawyer, I was very reactive. So, uh, something comes up on your calendar, there’s a court case coming up. Okay, great. That’s coming up next Monday, for example. So now, you know that you’re going to start preparing for that work case, whatever, maybe the Thursday before, maybe the Wednesday before, right?

[00:12:35] Nermin Jasani: Like. You are reacting to the things that are showing up on your calendar. You have a new hire. So now you’re reacting to training this person. On based on this new hire that’s happened, so it’s a lot of reacting and there’s not enough of I’m going to take control of my calendar. And 1 of the best things that I think that lawyers can do is you’ve got to figure out what your vacation is going to be, what your time off is going to be.

[00:13:03] Nermin Jasani: In the beginning of the year, because if you wait until you start feeling toasty and you’re starting to get burned out, it’s already too late. Right? But you’ve got the time at the beginning of the year where your calendar is clear. Like, there’s almost nothing on most people’s calendar going 12 months out, at least not to, you know, Q4 of this year.

[00:13:25] Nermin Jasani: My calendar looks fairly empty for Q4. So, if I know that, you know, usually there’s a ramp up of business and then a slow down, maybe I want to take off some time before that ramp up of business and it doesn’t need to be a week on a yacht somewhere exotic, right? It can just be 2 days where you’re not checking into the office.

[00:13:45] Nermin Jasani: 2 days where you’re not checking your email and I don’t mean Saturday and Sunday, right? I’m saying like the Thursday and the Friday before the Saturday and the Sunday, like, build in little long weekends of yours. Don’t wait for these federal holidays to then say, okay, I’m going to take a long weekend.

[00:14:02] Nermin Jasani: You get to choose your calendar. You get to plan your calendar. Take the time now to take that time off so that you’re not going to feel exhausted and then you’re getting mad at everyone and, you know, clients can sense that and potential clients can sense that that kind of desperation that kind of this isn’t a really nice person.

[00:14:21] Nermin Jasani: They’re having a bad day. I don’t think I want to work with them.

[00:14:24] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So, is it a matter of breaking down the, not just the vacations, I get that, and we all need time to think, we need time to relax, get away from, from the work. But then there’s also, hey, today’s Monday, I know I need to do my business development instead of just billing hours.

[00:14:43] Steve Fretzin: How do I plan for that? What do, I’ve got some ideas, but I want to hear what you, what you’re, what you’re suggesting to people.

[00:14:49] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, so I usually say at least once a month, you want to go through and have a financial day. I like alliteration. So I say, financial Fridays, right? If that feels good for you, then pick your Friday in the month, the last Friday.

[00:15:03] Nermin Jasani: The 1st, Friday and look at what happened during that month. Figure out. Did you hit your KPIs for that month? How much revenue did you have? How many client consults did you have? Because those are the metrics that are actually going to be the needle movers in your firm. You want to take a moment to get that bird’s eye view of making sure that you are actually hitting your metrics.

[00:15:24] Nermin Jasani: And even if you’re a partner in a firm, you want to make sure that you’re hitting your billable hours, that you are doing the things that doing the networking events. You want to make sure that you did enough stuff that month. And if not, then that gives you an opportunity to readjust. Recalibrate and make up for it in the next month or the month thereafter.

[00:15:46] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I mean, I’m suggesting try to get your business development done early in the day because the saying I have is that you have the day of the day have you and most of the lawyers they get into their inbox and then the day’s over. Like they’re not going to be able to get out of their inbox once they’re in it.

[00:16:02] Steve Fretzin: So, you know, schedule 7 30 to 8 AM to get out three, five emails to get meetings, to get things going so that that way, when the day takes control of you, which hopefully doesn’t happen, but it does. That at least you’ve done the business development for the week, for example, and we, in my group, we set up, uh, accountability buddies too.

[00:16:20] Steve Fretzin: So just like I go to Pilates and work out and people are probably sick of hearing about me doing Pilates, but it is, it’s what I do. And, but I go to where a group is and because of that and paying for it and whatever, it’s, you know, it’s a routine. And with doing business development, because it’s the last thing most lawyers want to do, it gets pushed down.

[00:16:40] Steve Fretzin: Um, and sometimes it’s other things you mentioned, trying to get a website down or get a podcast going or whatever. We don’t set time. So getting a friend at your firm or out of your firm, a group that you can rely on to work out your business development, chops, muscles, whatever, that’s going to be another suggestion.

[00:16:57] Steve Fretzin: Ensuring that it gets done because you can break a promise to yourself and kind of shake it off, but it’s hard to break a promise to someone else the same way and just blow it up, right? We’re not going to, we know we need to be there. We show up.

[00:17:09] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, absolutely. And real quick, going back to that comment that you made about email inboxes.

[00:17:14] Nermin Jasani: I always tell lawyers like your email inbox is everyone else’s fire. Yeah, that’s something that’s their plan for you today.

[00:17:21] Steve Fretzin: Not yours.

[00:17:22] Nermin Jasani: Exactly. Exactly. So I’m just like, just go into your email inbox, knowing that everything else is on fire for other people. And they’re expecting you to put out their fire.

[00:17:34] Nermin Jasani: If you probably let that fire go for long enough, it will find a way, for most things in your inbox, it will find its own way to put itself out.


[00:17:42] Steve Fretzin: mean, some of the top time management gurus that I’m friends with, with many of them, talk about allowing someone into your inbox that isn’t you, that’s your secretary, paralegal, that’s whomever you trust.

[00:17:55] Steve Fretzin: And letting them get rid of the spam, letting them respond, schedule things for you. Like there’s a trust, but verify, I’m sure that first month, but after they get into the swing of it, now you’re only dealing with, you know, the 10 or 15 emails a day that really are important for you. Not 150. Yeah, exactly.

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[00:20:09] Steve Fretzin: So you talk a lot about KPIs, key performance indicators, and, you know, getting, you know, getting planned for what your activity should be, not just the prospecting and marketing, but also how many people you need to meet.

[00:20:22] Steve Fretzin: And of those meetings, how many of them are moving forward in tracking all of that? I love that. I have a journaling system that I provide for my clients, but what’s your take on that? The importance of that and how that actually benefits. The lawyers that, that choose to track.

[00:20:37] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, so you’ve got to be able to track it because you have no idea where you are until you track it.

[00:20:43] Nermin Jasani: And I’m sure you experience this a lot with a lot of lawyers, Steve. They will think, oh, yeah, I do like 40 consults a month. And then when you make them go and count. How many consults they actually did, they will be shocked. You won’t be shocked because you already know. You already know it’s 40. You already know.

[00:21:02] Nermin Jasani: You’ve done it enough. You know, it’s not 40. Yeah. But they always get that. Oh, my God. It’s not actually this number. So, then when they actually start tracking the number of consults that they’re doing and what their conversion rate is from the consults, because a lot of them probably think, oh, yeah, I converted, you know, like, 90 percent of my consults and then you make them go and count and you say, okay, so you did 27 consults.

[00:21:25] Nermin Jasani: How many of those hired you? And then. There’s another number that makes them very sad, and it’s not 27, and it’s not 25. It’s closer to, like, 12 or 14. That makes them sad, too. So, you know, these numbers absolutely need to be tracked so that you can actually hold yourself accountable. For the goals that you are setting for yourself at the beginning of the year, and then you can make it into a game for yourself.

[00:21:50] Nermin Jasani: So, let’s say right now in the beginning of the year, your conversion rate from consult to client was. 25 percent make it into a game say, okay, my goal for June is going to be 30%. Just 1, 1, little thing that you’re tracking. That is going to have a significant impact to your bottom line. You didn’t need to roll up a billboard.

[00:22:14] Nermin Jasani: You didn’t need to hire an entire social media agency to get you on Instagram and TikTok. No, all you did was I’m going to focus on this one KPI. Because I’m going to track it and I’m going to set a goal and I’m going to check to make sure and this is not something that you need fancy technology for.

[00:22:30] Nermin Jasani: Just go into your calendar, count up the number of consults that you had, and then you probably know off the top of your head. They hired me. They didn’t. They hired me. They did it. You can color code them yellow, green, whatever, whatever you want to do. And that way, you’ll know they hired. They didn’t. So this isn’t this is something everyone can do.

[00:22:49] Nermin Jasani: And it’s something everyone should be doing. You don’t need fancy technology for it. Like if you haven’t done it, take the time to do it now.

[00:22:57] Steve Fretzin: And part of the problem is not being able to see that themselves, that their numbers are where they need to be. So it takes someone like you or I to pull that out.

[00:23:06] Steve Fretzin: That’s sort of step one. Step two is then it’s like, great. So I’m closing 50%. I should be closing 80%. How do I fix that? Well, they don’t have those answers, right? So we need to You know, step in and say, okay, let me hear what’s your approach to this meeting. How are you running this meeting? And then I destroy it.

[00:23:23] Steve Fretzin: Like I just hear how they’re running this meeting, free consulting, talking about rates up front, letting the, the, the buyer just control the whole meeting soup to nuts, and they’re wondering why they’re closing rates so low. And I’m just like, they don’t have a system. They don’t have a process. And so getting them to not only understand that that missing, that a good process is costing them those deals, but, but here’s the thing.

[00:23:49] Steve Fretzin: I love to do this and it freaks people out. You’ll love this. I then bring money into it and I say, all right, so you’re, you’re closing 5 out of 10. You should be closing 8 out of 10. That’s what you’re telling me. That’s three deals. Let’s say a month that you’re not getting. What are each of those deals valued at long term of the client?

[00:24:05] Steve Fretzin: Oh, well, each one’s, you know, 50, 000. So it’s 150, 000 a month that you’re not getting in revenue. And how long has that been going on? Oh, for years. Okay, well, now we start doing the math. We’re into that heavy, heavy millions. And if nothing changes, Nerman, how is that going to be different in the next couple of years?

[00:24:23] Steve Fretzin: So it’s at a couple million moving into the next couple of years. So do you want to do something to fix a three to 5 million problem? No, I don’t. I just want to keep going with it. Well, that’s the crate. No one says that, right? So this is the kind of stuff that makes the difference between. People understanding what it’s costing them, the impact on their life, the impact on their business, having the KPIs and the numbers versus not.

[00:24:49] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, absolutely. You have that 100 percent when you put it into perspective of how much you’re, you’re losing out on. It’s like, you could keep doing more, you’re, you could keep doing more marketing, but why if you are not converting where you need to convert? So, you know, you can absolutely plan for a successful consultation.

[00:25:09] Nermin Jasani: That’s going to give you the 80 percent chance of converting. Is that a bet I’m willing to make? Absolutely. Right. Like, but if you’re telling me that you’re 50 50 now, I’d rather just toss a coin, right? Like that doesn’t leave you feeling too good. And you’re a business owner. Your job is to. Eliminate risk or reduce risk as much as you can.

[00:25:28] Nermin Jasani: So if you can take yourself from 50 percent to 80%, you’ve just eliminated a whole lot of risk in your business.

[00:25:36] Steve Fretzin: Well, and you’re bringing in a lot more money doing essentially the exact same job and work that you were doing when you closed 5 out of 10. You know, you just had a different, you just had a process to follow that was more effective than wigging it, which is your current process.

[00:25:50] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, exactly. So have a plan for a successful consultation and that’ll go really long way.

[00:25:58] Steve Fretzin: So what, so give me an example of, of how you would work with an attorney on, cause I, I read your plan and your, your whole planning system and it’s very detail oriented. I can see it being very effective to, you know, help people plan and execute.

[00:26:14] Steve Fretzin: And follow through on achieving goals, walk me through what not engagement per se, but like how you would work with someone to help them get to the next level and, and, you know, achieve their goals.

[00:26:27] Nermin Jasani: Yeah. So one of the things that I do with my clients is I make them share my calendar, their calendar with me.

[00:26:32] Nermin Jasani: And when I look at their calendar, I can see in real time what’s going wrong and you know, what, where they need to structure their day differently. So. If as soon as I look at your calendar, I either see one of two things, Steve, I see empty blocks. Which means that that’s super dangerous. You’ve got nothing on your calendar.

[00:26:53] Nermin Jasani: So you’re just showing up sitting at your desk and you’re probably just going to your email. And then that’s where everything dies. Like you’re not, you’re not, I’m

[00:27:01] Steve Fretzin: not joking. I’m going to steal that. I don’t look at my client’s calendars. Um, I kind of trust them when they’re telling me that would, that would be really, that’s very intrusive, but I could see that being super helpful to see.

[00:27:13] Steve Fretzin: Whether, you know, they’re managing their calendar or they’re letting you manage them, whatever it might be. I love that. That’s so great. Yeah.

[00:27:19] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, so then the other thing I’ll see is if it’s not a super empty calendar, I see a super pack calendar. Yeah. So consult consult consult, uh, office hours. Um, and then, you know, client meeting, client meeting, client meeting, and then, you know, a petition review or deposition review or whatever.

[00:27:37] Nermin Jasani: And the problem with that is. There’s so much packed into that day. You have no room to breathe. You’re not going to the bathroom. You’re not leaving the office to get lunch and then you wonder why you’re burned out and exhausted. It’s like, look at your calendar. This is what’s telling you what’s going on.

[00:27:52] Nermin Jasani: So, the next step from there is we adjust the consult availability. So, a lot of law offices will just do like a 9 to 5 Monday through Friday open availability. I will sit with them and I will say, when are you most productive? Like, when are you most wanting to deal with people? Where are you feeling like your most energy?

[00:28:14] Nermin Jasani: Is it beginning of the day or is it after lunch? And it varies for lawyers. So, it’s there’s no right answer on that. But if they say. I’m an early morning person. Great. So we’ll open up your calendar availability for consult. 8 am to noon, and then we might throw it in 1 day. That’s like a 3 to 5 PM. If there’s someone who really wants to get in and an evening slot.

[00:28:36] Nermin Jasani: But that’s typically what we’ll do and we’ll set it to 2 or 3 days a week because the last thing you want to be doing is. Consult, consult, consult, switch modes into now, whatever, then being a lawyer, doing the actual lawyer work, then switching to HR mode, like it’s too much switching around in a day. So we want to make sure that we have days for consults and then days to be able to do focus actual lawyer work.

[00:29:01] Nermin Jasani: Yeah. I don’t want to see consult count or I don’t want to see calendars with 5 days of a week of consults. It’s, it’s too much switching back and forth. I find.


[00:29:09] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think that that just how we, how we utilize our calendars, how we utilize the time during the week and not only scheduling appointments.

[00:29:19] Steve Fretzin: And here’s, here’s kind of a little hidden secret. I think you alluded to this scheduling time for ourselves to get things done. So I need to follow up with some leads and it’s in my calendar for 30 minutes today, this afternoon, that that’s scheduled, like, that is scheduled for me to remind me, but also to get me to do it during the day.

[00:29:39] Steve Fretzin: And, and, and execute and get it done. So it, I think we, we sometimes just think about our calendars as, as meetings with other people, but let’s also leverage it for time with ourselves to do things that are going to be productive. Um, whether that’s brain work, working on matters or business development, marketing, or with, with other people.

[00:29:58] Nermin Jasani: Yeah, absolutely. Schedule the finance Fridays on your calendar. The marketing Monday’s on your calendar. Get it out for the whole year. Right? And then adjust if you need to adjust. But for now, make sure that it already lives on your calendar. Because if it’s not on your calendar, it’s not going to get done.

[00:30:15] Nermin Jasani: You’re going to forget about it. You’re going to listen to this great podcast episode. You can be like, They had some good ideas. That was great. Maybe I’ll think about it. Just cost you nothing to schedule this in your calendar. Yeah, move it around later if you need to, but just have a place for it on your calendar so that you were holding yourself accountable to the goals that you’re saying that you want.

[00:30:34] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s really great. Thank you so much. And we’re wrapping up. We’ve got our game changing book or podcast. You’ve got the 80 20 principle, which is. And I’m bringing that up daily.

[00:30:44] Nermin Jasani: I love that book. It is one of my favorites. I use it in all contexts. I look at it for my business. I look at, you know, team set up, you know, who’s the, who’s the 80 percent that it’s producing a lot for you or who’s the 80 percent that’s causing all your troubles, right?

[00:30:59] Nermin Jasani: Like there’s, there’s always that principle that can be held in different workplaces in different contexts. So it’s, it’s one of the best books that I think you can read as a business owner.

[00:31:10] Steve Fretzin: And it really alludes to the Pareto principle, which is You know, everything’s 80 20. So, you know, I’m thinking about like, you know, using that for networking, using that for all these different areas of, of how you spend your time and how you live your life.

[00:31:22] Steve Fretzin: And, um, you know, I’d rather spend, you know, 80 percent of my time with my 20 percent of my favorite people, you know, that kind of stuff. And it all seems to work out to 80 20, interestingly enough. We’re wrapping up. We’ve got our amazing sponsors, and I already mentioned Green Cardigan Marketing for websites for any kind of marketing you want to do for your law firm.

[00:31:41] Steve Fretzin: We’ve got Lawmatics, which helped me set up this podcast with you, Nerman, and all the details that I needed to follow to have a tremendous interview, which this was. And of course, get staffed up, you know, then they’ve got Sergio in the background is going to create a video of us talking about the podcast.

[00:31:56] Steve Fretzin: And I’ve got some great clips I’ve already isolated that he’s going to create it to video. He’s going to put on social media and use a full time VA like I get with get staffed up. Normally if people want to get in touch with you, they want to hear more about wildly successful law firm, your business. Um, what are the best ways for them to reach you?

[00:32:12] Nermin Jasani: Yeah. So LinkedIn is where I hang out. I absolutely love LinkedIn to go follow me on LinkedIn. I’m sure it’ll be in the show notes, but it’s. My name, Nermeen Jassani. You can find me on, uh, social media, uh, just LinkedIn would be the only one, but otherwise you can find me on my website, www. ws lawyers. com.

[00:32:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And good to know that I’ve been just like destroying your first name for the last half an hour. Nermeen. Nermeen. You

[00:32:36] Nermin Jasani: know what? It’s actually How often do you get that? I get it all the time. Yeah. And I don’t even make a big deal out of it because the actual way to say my name is the way my mom says it, which is you have to scream it.

[00:32:48] Nermin Jasani: And you’ve got to do it with an Indian accent, because my mother does not say my name unless it’s screened. So it’s, it’s, Nermeen! Nermeen! And I’m not going to ask people to say that, so, yes.

[00:32:58] Steve Fretzin: Well, listen, you know, people, as long as they don’t call me late to dinner, I’m happy. Um, but, uh, you know, you know, I’ve got, I get Stevie, Steven, Steve Reno.

[00:33:07] Steve Fretzin: There’s all kinds of things that people, people do with my name. So there we go. Well, really great stuff. Thank you so much. This is, you know, when it comes to planning, I, I’m just so happy that you’re in the space and that you’re, that you’re working with attorneys on this. So this is such an important.

[00:33:20] Steve Fretzin: Element of their law practices that they, whether you’re at a big firm or solo, it doesn’t matter planning, by the way, the law firm plans that are, and I’m not here to crap on them, but terrible. They’re usually terrible, so definitely talk to a professional outside of your law firm. If you want a really solid tactical, actionable plan, um, anyway, Nermeen, thank you so much.

[00:33:40] Steve Fretzin: Nermeen. Yeah, there you go. All right. There you go. It’s like, what? Yes, mom. Uh, anyway, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Thanks Steve. Yeah. Thank you everybody for spending time with us today on the Be That Lawyer podcast. Uh, and again, you know, helping you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized and a skilled rainmaker.

[00:33:58] Steve Fretzin: Take care, be safe, be well. We’ll talk again real soon.

[00:34:05] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.