Pamela DeNeuve: The Importance of Stress Reduction for Lawyers

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Pamela DeNeuve discuss:

  • The importance of empathy, compassion, and a trusted listening ear.
  • Why anxiety, stress, and depression often start in law school.
  • What to do (and not to do) in the morning to have a better day.
  • Overcoming the busyness and stress of being a lawyer.

Key Takeaways:

  • 11%, that’s 11 out of 100, lawyers are struggling with suicidal ideation. Please know, there is help out there and you are not alone.
  • The conversation and culture need to change in the legal industry. While resources do exist, in many firms, there has been a stigma to any lawyer taking advantage of mental health resources.
  • You must set yourself up for the next day, and that begins before you leave the office. Select what is going to be done first the following morning then there’s no question about what is going to happen.
  • Do an hour and a half worth of work before you touch the phone or your email and you will feel like you have momentum to your day. If you can start with meditation before that, it will give you a great foundation to start the day.

“It starts the night before. You’ve got to prepare, to set yourself up for the next day. How you start your day will determine the rest of your day. You can’t be sloppy or haphazard.” —  Pamela DeNeuve

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About Pamela DeNeuve: Pamela specializes in helping lawyers to increase productivity and to scale their law practice while building their book of business. She began coaching lawyers in Los Angeles, California, in 1992. She advocates for attorneys to succeed without sacrificing their mental, emotional, and physical well-being. She created and delivered courses to Bar Associations throughout the USA. She has also spoken internationally to empower the legal profession. Pamela also produced an international podcast, Lawyer of the Week.

Pamela has negotiated deals for AM100 law firms. She is a Peer Reviewer for the NATIONAL TASK FORCE ON LAWYER WELL-BEING, published by The American Bar Association in 2017.

She is a contributor to Huff Post and Medium and has written over 200 articles regarding Lawyer Well-Being. Pamela’s new book published by Globe Law and Business, “Thriving in a Multi-Generational Law Firm: How to Increase Communication and Collaboration Among Lawyers” can be ordered online.

#lawyercoach #lawyerwellbeing #stressrelief #productivity

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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everyone, listen up real quick. Before we begin the show, I’d like to present my Be That Lawyer Challenge. If you’ve ever wondered how much more you could be making as an attorney, I challenge you to meet with me for 30 minutes to discuss your law firm. If I’m unable to identify ways to bring in more business for you, I’ll pay your hourly rate for our time together.
[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: I’m just that confident. Go to Fretzin. com to accept this challenge and hope to meet you soon.
[00:00:29] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin We’ll take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now here’s your host Steve Fretzin
[00:00:52] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody welcome back to another exciting Fun episode of be that lawyer.
[00:00:56] Steve Fretzin: Um, I am kind of shot out of a cannon today. I’ve already done a presentation. I’ve had a couple of coaching calls and, uh, just really ready to rock and roll with my friend, Pamela. How you doing Pamela?
[00:01:07] Pamela DeNeuve: I am doing wonderfully.
[00:01:09] Steve Fretzin: All right. Glad to hear that
[00:01:10] Pamela DeNeuve: you’ve had a busy day.
[00:01:11] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And it sounds like you did too.
[00:01:12] Steve Fretzin: We’re both busy, busy people,
[00:01:14] Pamela DeNeuve: but
[00:01:16] Steve Fretzin: not too busy for the be that lawyer audience. We’re here today to help you. Yes, we’ve got to give them a show, give them information. That’s going to help them to be that lawyer, confident, organized, skilled rainmaker. And, um, I want to just share kind of a quick little personal thing before we get started, cause it’s going to be a lead into our talk today.
[00:01:35] Steve Fretzin: Um, I had a friend and a client in the last number of weeks, um, take his own life and I don’t want to bring the down, but we don’t know what was going on in his life. We don’t know all the details behind it, but it’s one thing to talk about depression. It’s one thing to talk about this, that, and the other, and you know, with lawyers.
[00:01:54] Steve Fretzin: And then it’s another thing to know somebody and have a friend. That where, where that, that occurs. So I want to, I want to really take this moment to, um, you know, just, just share how important wellbeing is and why the topic today, Pamela, and having you as my guest is absolutely so critical to the legal industry, um, now more than ever.
[00:02:14] Steve Fretzin: So I just want to put that out there again, not to, not to bring down the level of our energy at the level of the show, but just to let everyone know. If you’re going through something and you know, people that are, that there’s help and, uh, and, and better to find it than to not. Um, so Pamela, we do always start the show with the, um, with the quote of the show, and this is, um, uh, Maya Angelo.
[00:02:34] Steve Fretzin: It’s my mission in life is, is not merely to survive, but to thrive and to do some with some passion, some compassion, some humor and some style. And so welcome to the show and tell us why you love that quote so much.
[00:02:47] Pamela DeNeuve: I love that quote because. When you talked about the depression and the suicide, it’s like compassion has to be there and available.
[00:02:58] Pamela DeNeuve: Uh, most of my clients and many of my clients that come to me are having suicidal ideations. The um, recent research said that 11 percent of lawyers have suicidal ideations. And if you think about that number, if you had 100 lawyers lined up, 11 would have suicidal ideation. 100 lawyers, that is 55. So this number, is significant, and yet, lawyers are taught to smile, act like they have everything going for them, to act like they don’t have a cure in the world.
[00:03:45] Pamela DeNeuve: And you have to have that person, and that, and I am, for many of my clients, that person who has that compassion, after working with lawyers for 30 years. To know the signs and to be able to be a sounding board so that like the person you mentioned so they don’t have to take their life. They, all they have to have is someone who understands what they’re going to and letting them know that they can recover and that there is an answer.
[00:04:15] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, there, there is a path out and you just have to have relationships in, in your life that you can turn to. Um, and this person had relationships in spades. And didn’t seem to be able to turn, uh, that direction. So it’s, it’s just such a, such an unbelievable, uh, situation. But, um, Pamela Dunov, you are a stretch, a stress reduction and wellbeing coach.
[00:04:39] Steve Fretzin: You’ve done it for 30 years. Um, give us some, the reader’s digest on your background, uh, leading into that, be that lawyer tipping point for you.
[00:04:48] Pamela DeNeuve: You know, it’s very interesting because I always say lawyers chose me. I didn’t choose them. Uh, in 1992, people were wondering when you had the coach, what is a coach?
[00:04:58] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that was not, that was not so much a thing. There weren’t
[00:05:01] Pamela DeNeuve: any coaches around and I was on the leading edge of that. I got my education. I got my coaching practice. I opened my office on Santa on Wilshire Boulevard in Santa Monica. And I was like on top of the world and the clients started coming in.
[00:05:19] Pamela DeNeuve: But 60 percent of my clients were lawyers, and they kept telling their, their colleagues, and even one of my clients, who at that time, uh, was the city manager of Culver City, gave his colleague a gift, anniversary gift for him to come and be coached by me. And I got it, like there’s something going on because it wasn’t people weren’t talking about the stress or the pressures at that time, like there’s something going on in the legal community that makes them want to come and talk to me.
[00:05:59] Pamela DeNeuve: And there’s something I’m offering. That nobody’s talking about right now, especially back in 92.
[00:06:05] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and did you have some life experiences that led you to decide to be a coach and work with people that have Anxiety and stress and depression,
[00:06:14] Pamela DeNeuve: you know, it’s very interesting because um, I divorced at a very young age And I had two children and when my son went off to college, I raised my kids by myself in Los Angeles.
[00:06:26] Pamela DeNeuve: Playa del Rey was the city we lived in. And when my son went to UC Santa Barbara, I felt like my life was over. Like my reason to be was gone. You know, I, I, like I said, I raised them by myself. And then all of a sudden, I just hit a wall and it’s like all the pins I’ve been holding together as a parent just collapsed and I felt into this deep depression where I didn’t, I guess it was suicidal ideations.
[00:06:56] Pamela DeNeuve: It’s like I didn’t want to wake up the next day and I’d wake up the next day and I’d say, I gotta, I gotta do it again. And everything seemed gray and it felt like I had a bag over my head and I had to get to work, get up and go to work every day. My, I felt like my legs weighed a hundred pounds each. It was a monumental thing just to get dressed, put my suit on.
[00:07:20] Pamela DeNeuve: So I had to find my way out of that, uh, because I had no reason to live or to go on. And, uh, what I did was I started coaching around that same time. And I started helping people as I was helping myself. So when people come to me, I’m not like on a lofty horse, like, Oh, you know, or I’m not like a therapist who says, let me look in my manual to see what are those symptoms.
[00:07:48] Pamela DeNeuve: Let me diagnose. I am someone who was there, worked my way through, and have actually helped hundreds of lawyers work their way through the hopelessness they felt, like the one that took his life, to actually having a thriving, like the Maya Angelou quote, To be able to thrive and to be happy and to be successful.
[00:08:13] Pamela DeNeuve: It’s been a wonderful journey for me.
[00:08:15] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Well, and it’s, it’s wonderful when, when, um, I got pulled into legal in a similar fashion, just realizing that that business development wasn’t something that they had learned and that there was like this. Whiteboard that was blank and that I could create on it and, and take them along for the ride and they appreciate, you know, a lot of the things that I was working on, so again, never thought I’d do it, but I’m here and we’re here and we’re, and we’re doing the best we can with it.
[00:08:39] Steve Fretzin: The thing I wanted to cover with you primarily today was, um, what are some of the reasons why. Lawyers are so stressed and, and have that anxiety. And I, I kind of know the answer to this cause I’m, I’m sometimes like a, uh, an armchair counselor therapist too. But, um, but what, what’s your take on, on why there, I mean, you, you’re seeing new people all the time.
[00:09:01] Steve Fretzin: Why are they coming in?
[00:09:03] Pamela DeNeuve: Okay. So I believe it begins in law school. I think in order to graduate from law school, it’s like, you don’t matter how you feel. Doesn’t matter. It’s achievement. It’s working. It’s getting the work done. It’s staying up all night. It’s doing all those things. So, and then the bar is very competitive.
[00:09:24] Pamela DeNeuve: And so that is like, you know, it’s very formative. I mean, how, how old are they when they’re in law school?
[00:09:30] Steve Fretzin: It’s like a stress incubator.
[00:09:32] Pamela DeNeuve: Right. So then they get into the legal profession and then that pace, the legal culture is, you know, work, you know, the bill, there’s the billable hours. There’s, you know, it’s not just a billable hour.
[00:09:47] Pamela DeNeuve: Say they come into a firm and a young, you know, like the young client will come in and here’s your billable hours. Now, in addition to that, you need to do some pro bono. Then in addition to that, you need to do your administrative work. And in addition to that, you also need to try to do some rainmaking, especially in this day and time.
[00:10:06] Pamela DeNeuve: So, you know, Where does the family come in or where does your self care come in? It’s designed for them to be like thoroughbred race horses, racing to get the job done at any cost. And as we know with the human human spirit, And with, they’re still humans, that there’s a cost and the toll has been enormous.
[00:10:35] Pamela DeNeuve: In 2017, um, there was a, um, there was a report that was done, it was groundbreaking, when they actually did a survey on the stress level, the depression level, and all of that for lawyers. And that is when they created what’s called the Lawyer Wellbeing Report, sponsored by the American Bar Association. I was talking about this well before that.
[00:11:04] Pamela DeNeuve: Um, they actually, actually had the honor of being, um, a peer reviewer for this report. And it went out to all the law firms, it went out to all the bar associations, and they started to modify their behaviors because the culture and how they had been expecting lawyers to behave and produce. was creating a crisis in the legal profession where stress, depression, chronic anxiety, and of course, suicides were at an all time high.
[00:11:37] Pamela DeNeuve: And they really began to try to address those, the practices that were causing so much depression. But I just want to, as I’m rambling on, but I just want to say that they started, they had, um, you know, someone in the law firm and they started talking about it, especially in the large law firms. But you take that walk, you have this lawyer who’s suffering, that’s going to take that walk down to, to the person in charge, um, I think it’s called EAD, where they’re going to go in and they’re going to say, I’m depressed.
[00:12:14] Pamela DeNeuve: They are labeled. They are, you know, the person may be compassionate, but within the firm, they’re labeled, they’re considered weak, and they’re considered that they couldn’t cut the mustard. So they don’t, even though the law firms made these concessions for their employees, the culture was not conducive to the, anyone taking advantage of those resources.
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[00:14:33] Steve Fretzin: And I want to, I want to talk about what tips and ideas you have for, for people who are feeling a certain way at certain times to, to deal with it. But I’m curious about COVID and the working every day from the office versus working from home.
[00:14:48] Steve Fretzin: And has that helped or hurt? The, the level of stress and, and, um, in depression of the things that helped because people like I’m home with my dog and cat, I take, you know, I can’t say the word walk because he’ll hear me, but you know, that kind of stuff versus, you know, having the stress of, of driving in traffic, getting to work, being in the office all day, dealing with all the people and then coming, you know, so I’m just curious your take on that.
[00:15:14] Pamela DeNeuve: Okay, so what happened with COVID, uh, you know, which it was irreversible what happened. So what happened was a lot of lawyers left, you know, when things were getting back to normal and you know, the attorney said, we working from home, they were getting the work done. Uh, can we work, do a hybrid situation?
[00:15:37] Pamela DeNeuve: Can we work from home? But a lot of firms says, okay, nope. Now we’re back in the office, report back in the office. And so what you have now out there are tons of lawyer coaches. I have seen, and I may be exaggerating, but since COVID there are like 300 percent more lawyer coaches than ever before. A lot of lawyers have gotten into tech and they’ve gotten into other situations where they can work from home.
[00:16:09] Pamela DeNeuve: So in some cases they couldn’t get them to come into the office. They were like You know, can we get so that was a big thing that happened. And there are some firms that kind of got with it and said, we’ve got to create a hybrid situation where if they’re good, if they have a track record of getting their work done, and they can do some of it from home.
[00:16:33] Pamela DeNeuve: let’s let them work from home. Um, it’s really funny to me is that all of my clients, whether they’re in California or Chicago or wherever, they now do hearings on zoom. So that was never have happened before COVID. Well, sure. So, you know, so they don’t have to go park. They don’t have to go through all the thing and rush the courthouse and get in front of the judge.
[00:16:58] Pamela DeNeuve: They’re actually able to go on zoom now trials, you know, they’ve got to show up, but a lot of these hearings depositions, and all of those things arbitrations and things like that mediations, they can do those on zoom now.
[00:17:14] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I
[00:17:15] Pamela DeNeuve: can’t
[00:17:16] Steve Fretzin: speak to your point about the number of, I know there are more coaches now than there ever have been, um, in the legal space.
[00:17:23] Steve Fretzin: And there’s lots of different areas, stress reduction, sales, marketing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, I think the other thing I’ve seen is more people just deciding to go out on their own. Like I don’t need to have. Five people at my firm giving me work and then dealing with all these clients that are mine, or if I just have a couple of clients that I can take and start my own thing with low overhead, high profit, quality of life.
[00:17:47] Steve Fretzin: Like that’s a much better. Now there’s a lot of moving parts with that, that they got to figure out and hopefully they get some help. But, but that, I think that’s been, that’s been a big, a big, uh, awakening in the, in the legal space as well.
[00:18:00] Pamela DeNeuve: Yeah. That is true. Um, the thing that I’ve noticed, and this is over the years, even before COVID is, um, just like that lawyers are not taught to be in marketing and, and, and business development, neither were they taught to be business people.
[00:18:19] Pamela DeNeuve: Right. So they have. That is a problem. Um, one of the good things that they’re learning, and if they get the right kind of coach, because I’ve helped some of my clients do it, is that there’s so many contract people they can get to do some of the demands and different things like that, that even aren’t even in the country.
[00:18:39] Pamela DeNeuve: I had one client in Atlanta, and he had people that in India, And he says they do the medical check, they, they research all the medical records, they match everything up for low cost. And he could run his practice. So, uh, if anyone’s out there listening, who’s doing that, you’ve got to get plugged into the resources so that you can do the business, the business of practicing law.
[00:19:05] Pamela DeNeuve: Cause it’s not just about being a lawyer.
[00:19:08] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, no, you’re, you’re preaching to the choir with me. I mean, that’s, that’s what we’re talking about in this show every single day. The um, the thing I wanted to pull out of you, Pamela, if you know, in our last, you know, 10 minutes or so is a little bit of the DIY, the do it yourself stuff that you could help some of my folks in my audience, you know, they’re having a bad day to all the way to, you know, they need to get professional help.
[00:19:31] Steve Fretzin: What are some things that they can do to de stress that they can do to overcome some of the things that they’re dealing with, um, being a busy lawyer, doing lots of things.
[00:19:42] Pamela DeNeuve: Okay. One of the first thing that I always. Preach and always say is that it starts the night before. You’ve got to prepare, set yourself up for the next day.
[00:19:54] Pamela DeNeuve: So here’s some easy things to do. Number one, before you leave the office, whether you’re working from home or an office, look through your work and choose the top five things that you want to do accomplish the next day. Because if you do that the next day, you’re not going in, checking email on the phone, going all these things and never getting your work done.
[00:20:14] Pamela DeNeuve: So get to organize yourself, then go home. Hopefully, try to get a good rest. Understand that how you start your day will determine the rest of your day. You can’t be sloppy or haphazard, sleeping to the last minute, hitting the snooze, waking up, dragging yourself out of bed.
[00:20:38] Steve Fretzin: Wait a second. Are you talking about lawyers?
[00:20:40] Steve Fretzin: Are you talking about my teenage son?
[00:20:42] Pamela DeNeuve: I’m talking about lawyers.
[00:20:43] Steve Fretzin: Oh, okay. I was confused. Cause that was my, that was my morning watching him be late, be late, telling you
[00:20:52] Pamela DeNeuve: how you start your day, how you start to determine the rest of your day. So I always say the day starts the night before. So if you’re like depressed or you’re stressed, Start, you know, just if you did that, write five things you’re going to do the next day.
[00:21:08] Pamela DeNeuve: Try to have a decent evening, get to bed at a decent hour, and then get up in the morning and get your day started. The second thing, the other thing is don’t start your day with your email. Don’t start your day with the phone. Do an hour and a half worth of work first thing, and you’ll feel like you’ve gotten some momentum and you’re able to do that.
[00:21:31] Pamela DeNeuve: Now how you start your morning, you know, I’ve often tried to get my clients to meditate, but it’s very, very difficult to get attorneys to meditate. However, before you get going, there’s on YouTube, you could go on, there’s like, you know, soft music, something to get you in a good mood before you get going.
[00:21:51] Pamela DeNeuve: If you’re depressed, get focused. What can I do in the morning that’ll make me feel better? Is it having breakfast? Is it going for a walk? Is it, um, You know, of course, drinking coffee, but if how you start your day, even if you’re kind of depressed, if you can get your day going and not let your emails and your phones and everything drag you all over the place, it kind of gives you a sense of stability and you feel like you’re getting some of your work done.
[00:22:23] Pamela DeNeuve: A lot of the depression and stress comes from being overwhelmed and burned out. But if you can just get a hold of your morning. And, um, you know, I’ve, I’ve had a lot of my clients like, okay, here, you know, find this book, you know, whatever you need to do to get your day started in the right direction.
[00:22:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah.
[00:22:41] Steve Fretzin: I think that’s so right. And, uh, and, and, you know, people end up letting, they get into email jail and they get into email and then the emails controlling their day. They’re not controlling their day anymore. It’s just, it’s just all responsiveness or responsive to the email. And I know that that’s tough to deal with, but I think you’re right.
[00:23:00] Steve Fretzin: If we can get things done and make ourselves happy in the morning, get a good workout in, you know, eat a healthy breakfast, whatever it might be. And then the rest of the day is going to go much better than if you’re, you know, late to this and starting with, you know, email and getting upset right away.
[00:23:15] Steve Fretzin: And then, then the rest of the day, it’s going to be tough to tough to recover from.
[00:23:19] Pamela DeNeuve: Yeah. And I’m going to have some haters here, but starting in the morning, if you don’t start with talk radio or the news. It’ll make your day a lot better because those things get you, um, there are bodies, uh, the cortisol in our bodies, we’re chemical machines.
[00:23:37] Pamela DeNeuve: And if we get ourselves all worked up first thing in the morning, now you get in the office, you’re snapping, you’re irritated, you’re agitated, and then your whole day goes down the tubes and you’re wondering why you feel so crappy.
[00:23:50] Steve Fretzin: You know what they should come up with is happy news and just do like a half hour morning show or an hour morning show of just nothing but what’s going well in the world.
[00:23:59] Steve Fretzin: What’s going good in life and just have that news. I wonder if that would take off. I have dibs on that by the way, if it does.
[00:24:04] Pamela DeNeuve: I doubt it. I doubt it.
[00:24:06] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Yeah.
[00:24:06] Pamela DeNeuve: News makes money by getting people upset. Ah,
[00:24:09] Steve Fretzin: that’s right. That’s right. Okay. I forget. I forget. I forget. It’s a money. It’s a money game. See, it’s a money machine.
[00:24:15] Steve Fretzin: It’s a money machine. It’s a money machine. Um, Let’s go with, is there one more thing? Let’s say that someone, um, has a good morning and that’s not necessarily the issue. It might be that they’re just continually getting battered by angry clients or they’re getting just, they’re in a, they’re in a stress. I mean, I just think of divorce attorneys, like, I mean, you can’t have a more, you know, stressful life their day than that in dealing with people at their worst moments, um, acting like their worst selves.
[00:24:42] Steve Fretzin: Um, what are, what are some tips for people that maybe are okay in the morning, but there, there may be deeper in the weed weeds than that.
[00:24:50] Pamela DeNeuve: So you know, there’s something that’s called the Pomodoro method and that is you work, you know, they say work 30 minutes and then give yourself a break. In my clients, I say work an hour and a half and then take 30 minutes, take another hour and a half, take 30 minutes.
[00:25:10] Pamela DeNeuve: If you can get in three. One and a half hour periods. You could get more done, uh, three uninterrupted one and a half hours. You’d get more done than you normally take all day. And then that gives you the afternoon to kind of de stress a little bit, take some phone calls, some emails, and kind of breathe and, you know, take a break.
[00:25:31] Pamela DeNeuve: I have a client I just talked to today and we’ve been, you know, he’s always putting out fires and he says, Pamela, I’m going to take a half, half a day off. And he’s, he’s a managing partner, one of the firms in California. And he says a half a day off, I don’t know if I can do it. And I said, that’s your assignment.
[00:25:48] Pamela DeNeuve: Your assignment is take a half a day off because you don’t know how to take time for yourself. Because if you think of your mental health as a machine that has to be tended to, you wouldn’t drive your car without changing the oil. You wouldn’t drive the tires without putting air in. You’ve got to put it in.
[00:26:07] Pamela DeNeuve: Inner, you’ve got to put inner resources into you and it could be whatever it is. For some it’s pickleball, some it’s golf, some it’s um, playing games, some it’s movies, some it’s writing, you know, reading books, audiobooks. There’s a lot of things you can do to de stress. But you have to make that as much of a priority as getting your work done, because if you’re an empty bucket, you have nothing to give to yourself, to your clients, or to your family.
[00:26:36] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, it’s like you’re an athlete, you’re a lawyer athlete, and you’re not taking care of the machine that’s going to win the race. And so, so I totally get where you’re coming from. And, and so put yourself first and treat yourself well so that you can then be of service, you know, to the, to the clients that you represent and be your best, you know, the best, the best version of you.
[00:26:58] Steve Fretzin: Um, again, tough to do, but important. The, the thing I would also add is, um, and I, and I have so many, Friends and I do this and Dan Warburton and Seraph Reeve hacking and I, the list goes on and on of folks I’ve had on the show that talk about delegation, but if you’ve got a hundred things you have to do and 30 of them are way, way, way below your pay grade, but you’re doing them and that’s how you’re spending your time.
[00:27:24] Steve Fretzin: That’s another piece of this, that 30 percent of your time could be on wellness and eating and sleeping and doing things that are helping you get ahead. So. You know, get staffed up, get your VA, um, get some automation in place, some legal tech. Think about how you can delegate down and, and open up your time.
[00:27:42] Steve Fretzin: And that’s going to be a big part of, of how you clear the decks to then take care of yourself when you feel, when you’re feeling overwhelmed.
[00:27:49] Pamela DeNeuve: Yeah. I think that’s really important. I always say that practicing law is like running a triathlon. It’s not like you’re jogging around the block. So triathletes watch how they eat.
[00:27:58] Pamela DeNeuve: They watch how they sleep. They watch their, how their. They’re nutrition. They watch all these things. In other words, they couldn’t write and run triathlons running on e and there is so much support available. You can get offshore help. You can get if you can’t, if you’re starting a new farm, you’re on a budget.
[00:28:18] Pamela DeNeuve: There are lawyers there. These people are very bright. And they can do the, the, those things that you can do that you can maybe pay them like 10 bucks an hour and your rate is 350 an hour. You know, come on. Let what’s math. What’s the choice here? Yeah. Simple
[00:28:35] Steve Fretzin: math. All right. I know some lawyers aren’t very good at math, but that’s easy math everybody.
[00:28:40] Steve Fretzin: Um, Hey Pamela, as we wrap up, um, we’ve got a game changing book that you’re recommending 10 times. Easier than two times or 10 x is easier than two x. Right? Is that to Dan Sullivan?
[00:28:53] Pamela DeNeuve: Yes. Yeah, because if you, that book really talks about stop playing small, the same effort that you take to kinda, you know, make a hundred thousand, you could be making 300,000 or 400,000.
[00:29:06] Pamela DeNeuve: At 500,000. I had a client, you know, and he was like making like. 200, 000 and he said, Hey, Pamela, I want to go get a million and he made a million in a year by changing his mindset and so it’s about what’s between your ears. If you’re thinking that you can get a quarter when you really can get a dollar, guess what you’re going to get.
[00:29:27] Pamela DeNeuve: You’re going to get a quarter. So it’s, that’s the premise of that book.
[00:29:31] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And, um, as we wrap up, want to thank our sponsors, Laumatics, of course, wonderful at helping people to automate their way out of a lot of the follow up stuff, appointment setting and emails and automation and pipeline management.
[00:29:45] Steve Fretzin: Um, green cardigan marketing, improving your marketing, your website. And how you use email marketing, et cetera. And of course get staffed up, which we brought up now a couple of times, uh, helping you get that VA in place. I’ve got my guys, Sergio and Bogota, Columbia, just rocking it for me. Um, every single day, you know, creating all this stuff and taking away all that time that I don’t want to spend.
[00:30:05] Steve Fretzin: And by the way, not the best use of my time. Um, and it’s for a fraction of what you’d pay. For someone full time and no hr. They take care of all that for me Um panel if people want to get in touch with you, they’re feeling stressed out They say hey, here’s a resource that I should be utilizing. Um, or just to just to learn more about you What are the best ways for them to find you?
[00:30:25] Pamela DeNeuve: Okay, the first thing is that we’re really really excited in the next two weeks. We have a digital course coming out and it is how to get Um 10 hours worth of work done in only four hours. It’s a digital course You And for the first 10 days that it’s out, it’s uh, it’s only going to be 39. So watch for it on LinkedIn.
[00:30:47] Pamela DeNeuve: You can follow me on LinkedIn. I have um, about 22, 000 followers on LinkedIn and I also have a newsletter where I have about 16, 000 subscribers. The newsletter comes out twice a day and you could reach me, uh, at my, um, website, which is Pamela Deneuve, that’s D like David, E N like Nancy, E U, V like Victor, E at PamelaDeneuve.
[00:31:16] Pamela DeNeuve: com. So it’s Pamela at PamelaDeneuve. com.
[00:31:21] Steve Fretzin: And that’s all going to be in the show notes too, everybody. So you don’t have to go too far to find that. Um, probably, I’m
[00:31:26] Pamela DeNeuve: sorry, probably the best way to message me is on LinkedIn if you want to. Yeah.
[00:31:30] Steve Fretzin: You and I are big, big, big LinkedIn folks. Um, and that’s, that’s, that is the easiest way these days.
[00:31:36] Steve Fretzin: Thank you so much. I, I just can’t tell you how much I appreciate, especially, you know, during these trying times to have someone on the show that, that has been there, done that, and is working actively to help the profession that we’ve all grown to love. I mean, as a non lawyer, I love the profession and I want to leave it better than I found it.
[00:31:52] Steve Fretzin: And I think you’re probably in that same boat. So just, just thank you so much.
[00:31:56] Pamela DeNeuve: Yeah. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.
[00:31:59] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Me too. And thank you everybody for spending time with Pamela and I today. Um, just giving you more and more ideas and ways to be your best self, be your best version. Um, be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker.
[00:32:11] Steve Fretzin: Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.
[00:32:19] Narrator: Thanks for listening. To be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.