Roy Sexton: Signal Boosting, Reciprocation, and Acknowledging Your Social Media Community

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Roy Sexton discuss:

  • Defining business development and marketing, the relationship is between the two, and how best to integrate them.
  • Listening to the coaches you bring in until it is built and hardwired into your DNA.
  • Getting the full value out of your content and of social media.
  • Being engaged in the social media community.

Key Takeaways:

  • Marketing shows you where the door is, business development helps you walk through it.
  • The business development technique you hold near and dear is not a silver bullet. It’s what you do with it. It’s how you develop relationships and how you build a book of business.
  • With commitment, there is growth. Business development is a learned thing – you just have to stick to the regiment.
  • The days of being able to avoid social media are over.

“We call it a rule of three. If you’re speaking somewhere or you’ve written something, you’ve three bites at the apple on social media to promote that, at minimum. There’s the time leading up to the webinar you’re about to promote and promote that more than once.” — Roy Sexton

Connect with Roy Sexton:








Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911


Welcome to my show. Be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. If you’re a first time listener, this is a show all about lawyers and helping them figure out the whole business development marketing thing that they never signed up for When they got into law school a little bit about me and my background. I’ve been working with lawyers now for about 12 years solid, and it’s all I do every day. I’ve got a bunch of different crush courses that I take lawyers through to help them typically double or triple their books of business. And most recently I’ve added a rainmakers round table, which is $4 million plus producers. So if that’s you and you want to be in a group of other high-performing originators, certainly let me know, but I’m happy to talk about my deliverables and what I do offline, but I want it to at least let you guys know what I’m up to these days.

I have a very cool guest today. Roy Sexton, he leads the Clark and Hill marketing branding communication efforts, collaborating with the firms, exceptional team of marketing business development professionals. He’s got 20 years of experience in marketing communications and business development, strategic planning. He’s also a published author two times with “REEL Roy’s Reviews”, Volumes one and two. Roy, how are you doing today?

I’m good. How are you?

Good. Good. It’s really good to hear from you. And we’ve known each other for a few years and I’m so happy to have you on the show.

Well, I’m thrilled to be here and I am a fan of yours. I think you have a wonderful voice. Uh, you are also very inclusive and accessible and I, you know, we’ll just keep complimenting each other for the next half hour.

Yeah, that’s the show. I didn’t tell you that, but that’s the show. We’re just sit here and, and, and grease the wheels for each other for 30 minutes.

Yeah. Make our mothers really happy. And our other relatives who can just, you know, bask in our glow. No, I know. And I know this has been a journey you’ve been on as well in terms of finding your voice as a consultant and you know, for what it’s worth I do, branding is something of interest to me. And I think you’re doing a very nice job of becoming an essential part of the community here of consultants and people who help attorneys grow. And I think you’re carving out a nice niche while still being very complimentary to both your competitors and peers across, across the continuum.

Yeah, I mean, I think that we all have to realize these, that look, you know, we can be inclusive. We can work with each other. You don’t have to box everybody out the way that we did in the old days. I think there’s, there’s plenty of work to go around, especially in the legal community. And to that end, maybe a share just a few more bullet points. If you would, about your background, what drove you to, to get into this crazy world and, and legal marketing,

Uh, serendipity and ego. I could go on for a long time, I suppose, about the strange turns my life has taken, but I was an English and theater major in college and didn’t really consider any kind of career track and have bounced from college advancement to Deloitte where I was doing consulting for a little bit, which led to a career in healthcare for a while doing strategic planning. And I actually got my master’s in theater at one point and have talked my way into jobs I’m not qualified to have. And about 2005, my husband turned to me and he goes, you should get your MBA because if you’re really healthcare, people are really not going to understand how your educational background aligns with what you do for a living. And he’s an engineer so he was always done a track, always knew a track he’d be on, and I’ve not been that person. So after I’d done a decade of healthcare work, finished my MBA. They added marketing to my portfolio at the healthcare system. And I found that I really liked it, but I had grown tired of healthcare, which is, if you ever think that decisions take a while to be made in legal, join, joining a healthcare system for a while, and you’ll run back to a law firm. So after a decade, I said, you know, let me just see what’s out there. I didn’t plan to get into legal. I just threw my hat out there, my resume out there. And there was a gentleman named Dave Trott who ran a mortgage foreclosure firm and was running for Congress. He was a great marketer instinctively, but he knew he’d be in office hopefully and wanted someone to kind of take over that side of what he’d been doing at the firm.

Now, I didn’t know it mortgage foreclosure. I knew what mortgage foreclosure was, but I didn’t know that kind of law firm versus corporate firm versus anything. I just thought, well, I get a VP title and I get to see what a political campaign looks like in parallel and learn a new industry. And I loved it. And I loved working with attorneys and found that I had an affinity for, I think is a certain mindset among attorneys. They’re more introspective. They are linguistically oriented, they are averse to risk, but they are interested in having a voice and getting themselves out there in smart and clever ways. And I, along the way also joined an organization called the legal marketing association. I’m privileged now to be the treasurer of the international board, which nearly 10 years later, I don’t know that I would have predicted, but that organization really gave me a career path and set me in a direction that I am very grateful for and gave me a set of friends that I just adore. We squabble sometimes. I mean, we have our tensions this year has been eye opening being on the international board. But nonetheless, I have found that it’s a community that, that really supports me and that I support and feel proud to be of.

So all of that is how I ended up here talking to you. I’m now at Clark Hill, this is my third firm. I was at a small corporate firm, Kurt Russell in Detroit, a really smart white shoe firm that had never had a marketing person before. That was tough because you’re always rationalizing and trying to validate what you do while doing it in that environment. So when, when Clark Hill knocked, you know, a 25 office firm across coast to coast, as well as Dublin and Mexico city, with 650 attorneys, I knew that that was the right platform for me and what I’ve learned to this point in legal. So it’s been a great ride and I’ve enjoyed every step of the way.

So along the way, working in legal, then, there’s business development and there’s marketing. And I think there’s some confusion about which is which, and who’s doing marketing, who’s doing business development, lawyers, call business development, marketing, anything but sales. So how do we define business development and marketing? And then how do those two integrate together to help a lawyer be successful?

Yeah, I’m going to pick on my attorney, friends, present company included. I’d like to go to law school just to see what happens because I think attorneys never wanted to admit they don’t know something. Marketing and business development are a bit of a mystery to them. They’re excited about it. They’re scared of it. And they come to you with this sort of dismissal attitude. Like, it’s all the same thing, marketing and business development. I take people to lunch. That’s what I do. It’s really, it’s really effective, but you have this kind of like almost teen angst coming at you. You don’t quite understand why what’s happening here. And when you step back and you lead with grace and you say, Hey, I get it. I get that. This is new for you and I know that you’ve been doing really great stuff, but let’s talk about other things you might not know about that are available to you. It does shift the conversation.

You see the attorney breathe a sigh of relief at which time I, or one of my colleagues, Megan McKeon is our director of business development. For example, we use this mnemonic, she calls it. Marketing shows you where the door is, business development helps you walk through it. That always seems to resonate in marketing. And I sort of see myself as PT, Barnum, and I think that’s why I can go from healthcare to legal, to, I joke sometimes in the next industry, maybe I should be in the funeral home business selling things people don’t really want, but they need them when they need them. But you know, for marketing, it really is about distilling out what makes this unique and what audience is out there with money to spend on it.

How can I make enough noise and raise the presence and awareness of what makes the thing I’m selling unique. So the people with money in their pocket go, Oh yeah, I want that. I’ve simplified it grossly. But you know, there are a lot of techniques and tricks to do that business development is, I sometimes think really has the harder road because they have to take that and apply either strategy to that and give us direction or see what we’re doing and pull out of it the value to really drive revenue growth, to give the attorneys focus, to say, what industries are you pursuing? What client targets are you pursuing? How are you getting in there? What does that look like? What does that steady, steady drumbeat look like? And a business development person has to be coach, psychologist, strategists. They have to wear a lot of hats.

A friend of mine, Susan Freeman, who is just a magnificent consultant in her own, right. She joked with me once and hurt my feelings. But she just like, all things. Are your feelings there? Right? She said, and she’s got a bit of a twang so excuse me. She goes “Now, Roy, here’s the thing you marketing people make the attorneys feel good. We business development. People have to tell them the truth”. Well, she’s not wrong. We do get the candy and marketing to go. I got an article placed. The marketers, we’re doing the social media. We’re hosting an event. It’s fun. If done correctly, business development does have to say, well, now you went to the events. Who did you talk to? Did you clump with your other attorneys? Or did you meet five new people? How are you following up with those new people? What does that look like? What tactics are you putting in place? And did you get any outcome from it? It’s, you know, it’s like, they’re there the piano teacher saying everybody has to go practice. And I’m the guy having recess across the street going, “Hey, come over here and play”.

Haha, so you’re basically telling me why my job is so hard, right?

Oh, your job is so hard because you have a difficult message to deliver, which is discipline. It’s as plain and simple as that. You know, I joke sometimes that I have bought exercise books, thinking by the act of buying the book, I will lose weight and have a body like Brad Pitt that buying the book does not happen. Does it make that happen? I have to read the book. I have to follow the instructions. I have to get up. I have to not eat a Twinkie. I have to, you know, run or do sit ups and I’m not going to do any of those things. So I’m going to be built like Homer Simpson, not Brad Pitt, but I, you know, again, you just hiring a business development coach or bringing somebody in, you have to do what they tell you. And it’s hard. Now, once you get it in your DNA, like eating right and exercising, you feel good. You want to keep doing it. But I think it’s hard for people to cross that hurdle. And I think my mom has this phrase. I’m snapping my fingers to keep the elephants away. And you say, well, there are no elephants it’s working.

You know, I think a lot of people land on business development with tactics, gifts, Christmas holiday, overtures parties. And they think these things are working. You never realize how close attorneys hold these things to their chest until you say, we’re not going to pay for that anymore. And then the litigator comes out and they give you all the arguments for why this is the best party we’ve ever had and all our business comes from it. And people love coming to this party every year. And if we don’t do this party, we’re going to lose our, our clients and they’re going to hate us and be pause and go. If this party is the only reason they are paying you, what they’re paying you for legal advice, we have bigger problems. They’re paying you because you’re smart. They’re paying you because you help solve their issues. They’re paying you because you help provide them comfort in a time of distress.

So don’t tell me it’s the holiday party, that it’s your ticket to business development. It may be an opportunity you create that allows you to have conversations. You might not have other times of the year. I’ll accept that. But the party is not a silver bullet. It’s what you do with it. It’s how you develop relationships and how you build a book of business. Now I’m telling you I’m mansplaining to you, your job, but I admire it. I don’t do it. I don’t know that I’d be terribly good at it. I like the marketing side of it. I like being able to say more broadly. Here’s what makes this firm unique. Here’s what’s important. Here’s our culture. Here’s how I want to tell stories about that culture. Here are the platforms we can use to do that because I think if I do my job right, it builds the confidence off of the attorney to then do what you want them to do. Because they’re like – Oh yeah, I called somebody. And they knew who I was. I didn’t feel like it was in the eighth grade asking to sit at a lunch table where nobody wants me. They’re like, Oh, Clark Hill. Oh my gosh. I’ll take your call. And then, you know, Dumbo with the feather that he used to fly, which he didn’t need. It’s like, “Oh, good. I’m in”. Then they shine. Then they follow all the good guidance you give them. If I do my job correctly and make it an easy entree.

Well, and the interesting thing is, is that I feel like the complete opposite where marketing seems so creative. And so, you know, just sort of challenging to get the message out and to make it hit and to make it sticky. And with business development, it’s process. Yeah, there’s commitment involved, but there’s process there’s language. There are literal steps that can be followed. So when I explain it to an attorney, I say, well, look, the first time that you tried a case, it was challenging, right? You didn’t know what to say. You didn’t have much experience. It was clumsy. How are you on your 20th trial? How are you on your 50th or whatever the number might be. And they go, oh, now I can do it in my sleep. And so my job is to A, get the commitment, and with commitment there’s growth.

And if they can follow the steps and plan and execute with the help of a coach, me or someone else or whatever, that this is all a learned thing. And yes, there’s some creativity to it. But more than that, it’s about following sort of following the regimen. Right? And that’s more like what you were saying about eating right. And working out there’s a regimen. And when you do it, it becomes part of your life and part of your habits and part of how you do things and marketing. Maybe there’s some element to that, but it’s so, so much more creative. And in my opinion, more challenging because it’s like, how do we get a story to stick? Or how do we get something to be truly unique? If I’m one of a hundred estate planners or a thousand estate planners or a hundred thousand estate planners, how am I standing out? To me that’s a more challenging question then. How do I go out and get a hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars in business?

Well, let me reframe the question a little bit, which is why it probably feels daunting. I don’t care if you stand out from all of the estate planners, I just need you to stand out from the estate planners in the market, the demographics, the geography of interest to you. You don’t have to be the best and brightest of all the estate planners. You just have to be the one that people want to listen to. And I think that’s hard. You know, I always in healthcare, somebody joked that the best way to lose your audience of physicians is to say, half of you graduated in the bottom half of your class. I did not. Well, statistically, yes, half of you had to graduate somewhere in the bottom half of your class. You know, I think attorneys and physicians and others are like, I am the best, or you want them to have that confidence going into the room because they have to have that confidence to do open heart surgery or deal with a very complex piece of litigation.

But that same mentality doesn’t necessarily serve you well in a room full of strangers or on social media. It comes off as somebody I don’t want to approach. It’s like, well, I’m intimidated by that person. So you have to find the moment to show your humanity and show that you’re you want to be helpful. I mean, the thing about being a doctor and attorney, when you’re a little kid and you say, I want to be a doctor, an attorney you’re motivated, yes, probably by the prestige, by certain elements of the theater of those jobs. But you also want to help people. People who decide to be a doctor, an attorney, want to help people. So remembering that and remembering what’s before us is important. I mean, you and I were chatting earlier about thought leadership and the value of that. I think that’s where we are now, you can’t go golfing with – well, you could go golfing with people, but I wouldn’t recommend it. You can’t take people to football games. You can’t go to the chicken dinners and the rodeos and the, you know, convince your marketing person to write a check for $5,000. It’s so important to your relationship with this person. And then you don’t even show up for the event. You can’t do any of that stuff.

So, you have to pause. And this is where I think business development and marketing are really starting to integrate in powerful ways, because I don’t know what always the market differentiator or niche might be, but the business development coach probably does. So if I have a conversation with the attorney and or the person who’s supporting them on the business development side and say, what are the three or four things that set you apart in your estimation or in the coach’s estimation? Okay. That’s a place to start. And I like to ask some questions.

Also, what questions do you get all the time that tired of answering. It gives an opportunity for the phone to ring, but more often than not, these are the things that people are Googling. We know how we shop for other things. And we seem to forget that when it comes time to thinking about selling ourselves. I know that when you know, my, you know, my husband and I were looking for a new bookshelf for the living room a couple of weeks ago, and Ikea didn’t quite have the right size, but we wanted the color to match. So we started searching and I started searching by size and color. And I found one ironically at Amazon, but I didn’t start there. I didn’t go to the country club to ask anybody what bookshelf they bought. I went to the internet. And if we know there are common questions that you get asked all the time, don’t you suppose there are a whole lot of people in your life you don’t know yet. And they’re all over the world asking that same question. So if you write a piece of content, simple, accessible, digestible on a question, you get all the time and yes, maybe someone’s already written on it. Who cares? Write it better. Frame it better. Have a nicer picture of yourself make it a Q and a, make it a series of documents people want to scan quickly, add a little video component. They want to hear you and see your voice. Get that on the internet. You’ll be surprised at how many people are searching for that question. And then once they find your answer, they’ll go “I might want to get to know this person a little better. I liked the way they framed this”. They give you a call.

Work with your marketing teams. When you’re working on content like that, we call it a rule of three. If you’re speaking somewhere, you’ve written something, you have three bites at the Apple on social media to promote that at minimum, there’s the time leading up to the webinar. You’re about to promote and promote that more than once. You know, they don’t run one Avengers ad once a month before the movie comes out, they run that ad 10 times on an hour on ABC. I mean, it’s escapable. So post a few times and say, I’ve got a webinar coming up, it’s on this topic and then why they should see it. If you don’t make it easy for me, I move on.

Sometimes people write these titles for these things and I’m like, I have no idea what this is about. And the description is even worse. Remembered them for the most part these are not attorneys that you’re selling to. There may be GC. Yes, but for the most part, these are business owners so write it in a way we mere mortals can understand and get that out on, on, on social media. And then the day of take a photo of yourself, take a photo of the screen, take a photo of your notes and post that and say, I’m so excited to be presenting X, Y, and Z to the Saskatchewan chamber of commerce today. And then if someone makes a recording or even if they don’t, turn those notes into a blog entry, something brief saying, if you missed my presentation, here’s what it was. I’d be happy to come speak to your group or talk to you about these issues.

So, you’ve taken something you were doing already and gotten at minimum three bits of promotion out of that. And you know, the other thing is partner with your marketing teams. They usually have a PR media person or consultant find out if it’s something that local media are asking about, we saw a lot around Cares Act and some of the items early on during the pandemic that people were just hungry for anybody to comment on. They needed every local publication, every regional publication, every business and legal publication had questions about Cares Act. And it was, you know, I hate the expression as it shooting fish in a barrel are, you know, it’s a good kind of a grotesque expression, but it was! There are just so many opportunities to get your name out there. Again, promote that you were quoted, have your marketing team, get that out there.

And I guess this is the other rule I would offer right now, reciprocate. It’s called social media for a reason. And I see so many people, I don’t think they mean to come off so selfish, but it’s just me, me, me. And I’m a little bit that way I posted this, I did this, I was on this. I, you know, share other people’s content when you see it. When you’re on a podcast like this, share some of the other episodes tag, some of the other guests say, I’m going to be appearing on this podcast. I was listening to this episode. I really enjoyed this about it. You’ll be surprised at how your network grows and we’re all vain enough – I put stuff on social media because I want people to see it. So the best way to know that you saw it is to comment on it, to share it, to tag it.

And then I go, wow, this person is interesting. They like me. The next time they do something, I’m going to share it. And when you create that mechanism for yourself of communication, you will be amazed at how quickly people see you as an expert on a topic who want to call you, because you seem like a fully formed human being who knows how to engage and take care of others and be helpful. I know that was a bit of a rant, but I wanted to at least offer some of my perspectives on this.

Yeah. I think that’s important. And the key thing here is do something. It doesn’t have to be everything, but there are lawyers that aren’t doing any posting or they, they say, “Well, there’s so much going on right now on social media that I would just get lost”. Well, I don’t think so. I think if you post once a quarter or once a month maybe you would, but you have to have a plan. You have to really consider the topics that you want to promote. Like you said, the questions that aren’t being answered, that you can answer. I have an actual social media calendar that I put together so that I have regular posts that are valuable, that are educational or interesting. And occasionally I might drop in something about me or my programs or things I do. But for the most part, what I’m trying to do is build my brand through being helpful and being of service to the community, the legal committee.

That’s right. And I assume you recycle content. I mean, just because you posted something once doesn’t mean you can’t share it again.

Steve: Yeah. We do that and I love your rule of three. I published the article on the Chicago daily law bulletin. Okay. I take that article. I posted up on my blog. So now it’s a little different, but it’s on my blog, so there’s a second use. Then I posted in social media. There’s a third use. It goes into my newsletter. There’s a fourth use.

I also take these articles and I have a book called the “Ambitious Attorney” and that’s a culmination of all the articles for, I don’t know about a three-year period for the Bulletin that I put into a book. So now they’re all in one place, second edition coming out, down the road, and now there’s another use. Then you can mold make multiple posts if you want on a particular article. That’s what we need to do to make sure that we’re getting the full value out of a piece of content that’s important to the, to the industry.

Well, and so I’m on your LinkedIn right now, and I’m typing congrats to my wonderful friend comma , @, and this is the thing – sometimes I know I’m sort of talking past things that people don’t want to admit they don’t know how to do. Tagging someone. Don’t be ashamed. Type the app symbol, and then start typing their name and when it pops up, choose it. So I’m typing “Congrats to my wonderful friend, Steve Fretzin. I was honored to record an episode today”. It’s about signal boost. It’s about reciprocation. And it’s about acknowledging that you’re part of a community and it’s not hard to do. And I think I agree with you. I think a plan, especially if you feel overwhelmed with social media, until you get to a point where it feels second nature to you, it’s good.

There are tools like Hootsuite that can help you schedule out in advance. If you truly feel like you’re going to be too busy to comment or, or share people’s work, or to even post with regularity, schedule it out. When you have some free time on a weekend, if that’s the kind of person you are map out. I would say at least post something daily. And this is when people tune out because they’re like, “Oh my God, I can’t possibly do that”. I mean, I post almost hourly, which is far too much, but I have 19,000 followers on LinkedIn and I’m not humble bragging about that. That’s my job. I want to have a big audience. And when I have that audience, I share about Clark Hill. I share about Ronald McDonald house where I’m on the board. I share about Mosaic Youth theater where I’m on the board.

I share about legal marketing association yesterday. I wore a t-shirt that said, I’m not the person you put on speakerphone. I put that on my LinkedIn. Now that goes with my brain. It gives people a sense. And I had a woman say, you always have the best t-shirts I really enjoy seeing what you post. That I’m reaching different members, segments of my audience in different ways. And they’re like, I like following you. I like seeing what you’re sharing. I don’t author hardly anything anymore. Yes. I’ve written a couple books and I’ve been so lazy. I wrote about movies. So, I haven’t written anything since March, but I’ve been sharing other people’s stuff. There’s no reason you have to be the author of the content. Sometimes you’re just the curator or you’re the kind of person that they’re like.

I like the things you’re reading. You’re making it easier for me. I don’t have to worry about the ocean of stuff. I know that you’re connected with enough different people posting interesting stuff, and you’re sharing it. You’re somebody I want to follow. And I guess I would do my best to quiet the drum beats. Cause I know attorneys are trained. Don’t ask a question. You don’t know the answer to, and don’t dive into something that will later come up in discovery. And I’m sure social media is like an ocean of risk to an attorney. Don’t worry about it. Don’t worry about all the things. Take it slow, but share content. Don’t be so averse that you have the blue avatars you picture forever and you never come in or post cause here’s the thing it’s going to catch up to you.

The days of being able to avoid social media, I think are over. I think we’re finding that general counsel and people making hiring decisions go to LinkedIn. I mean, yes, they also go to the firm website, and attorneys obsess about those files and the website to the point where I’m like, I don’t think people care about these as much as you do, but okay. What they do is they meet you at a party or they read an article by you. Then they Google you. And the first thing that’s going to come up is your LinkedIn. I don’t care how strong the SEO is on your website. And please don’t beat up your marketing people about SEO. It’s a moving target with Google. It’s very expensive and it’s kind of irrelevant. LinkedIn’s already putting money into SEO, ride that wave, put your bile out there in a strong and significant way. Tap and tag your articles on your LinkedIn bio. You can pin them there and people are going to go to your LinkedIn profile, see who you’re connected with.

They’re also going to look at your activity and they do that now. And they see how many things you’ve posted. And if you haven’t posted anything since 2016, and it was one thing from your firm page, because you all helped out with habitat for humanity, people are going to say, “Well, you’re kind of a dinosaur and none of us want that”. So I don’t mean to put fear in people’s hearts, but it’s, it’s an expectation now that you’re not just there, but that you’re engaged and you’re a participant in the community and that you have, you know, we’re also, we’re measuring people on values these days in a way I don’t think we’ve seen in a long time, if ever. People are interested in, how have you responded to diversity and inclusion? How are you addressing the issues that we’re seeing face society today? Are you addressing them or are you turning a blind eye saying, well, I don’t get into that. People expect you to get into it. The absence of voice and some of those issues says more than a lot.

Yeah. So this is, so this has been a great conversation. I mean, I think people need to take stock of their business development, their marketing, their thought leadership, their involvement in the conversation or lack thereof. And, and this is all what we’ve talked about. You’ve been so thoughtful in sharing this with me and my audience today in wrapping up. Is there anything you’d like to share a website or, or something that you’ve put out there.

I would say following on LinkedIn. I am a Roy Sexton at LinkedIn and you’ll find me pretty easily. I’m at Clark Hill. I would love that. I take all invites. So I certainly welcome anybody reaching out to me on LinkedIn and following me there, that’s probably the best place to kind of catch up with what I’m thinking and what I’m doing. Obviously, I’d love for you to check out We’re redoing the website. So note that it will look very different in a few months, but it still is a great vehicle to share the wonderful things we’re doing as a firm. And if you’re interested in movie reviews from March and older, uh, you can check out my blog, real Roy reviews, REEL ROI

And you’ll get that side of my life as well. But, uh, you know, any, any social media I’m on Twitter, I’m on Facebook, on all those things that certainly welcome. Welcome the views. I would also suggest in addition to Steve, there are people like Jay Harrington and Nancy Merlin, Greg Lambert, some voices out there that I think are doing really good work, Gina Ruble, talking about these issues. They have their podcasts, they have their blogs. And I think those are all great resources. You might want to check out if you’re not following those folks on LinkedIn.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again for being my guest. I really appreciate it.

Well, thanks for having me.


Absolutely. And hey, everybody want to thank you for spending a little time with, with me and Roy today. And again, the goal is to help you be that lawyer, someone who’s organized, confident, a skilled Rainmaker. Now listen, have a good day and appreciate your spending some time and be safe out there. Thank you. Bye-bye