Tom Latourette: Maybe “Sales” Isn’t a Dirty Word

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Tom Latourette discuss:

  • The three levels of why and looking beyond the apparent reasons.
  • Finding the quantified cost, not just the story of what happened.
  • Generating traction to get in the door for the sales call.
  • Questioning, curiosity, and focusing on the client for best results.

Key Takeaways:

  • The first or second conversation you have with a client or potential client should be a discovery call – it should be all about them, not about your credentials.
  • Take the time to explore both the hard costs, as well as the soft costs.
  • When prospecting, think about what is going on in someone else’s world.
  • Reinforce the initial pain point from the discovery call to remind clients and customers why they are continuing to work with you.

“We need to get customers to really see that price is different than the total cost of what I pay when I’m working with somebody.” —  Tom Latourette

Connect with Tom Latourette:  


Phone: 847-528-2738




Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: The Ambitious Attorney: Your Guide to Doubling or Even Tripling Your Book of Business and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.



lawyer, work, clients, question, people, business, problem, talking, listening, meeting, conversation, sales, cost, discovery, salespeople, steve, gcs, organization, prospecting, prospective client


Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Tom Latourette


Tom Latourette  [00:00]

And most of the time, our slide deck is, here’s our list of satisfied customers. Here’s how many years we’ve been in business. Here’s who we are. Here’s who we focus on. Here’s our list of satisfied clients. Here’s our executive team. And we don’t get to customer until slide eight or nine, right?


Narrator  [00:24]

You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time, greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.


Steve Fretzin  [00:46]

Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin. I hope you’re having a lovely day here in Chicago. It is horrible. It’s rainy. It’s windy, it’s humid. But we have beautiful summers in Chicago. So forget everything I just said, Listen, it’s all about you, the lawyer, how are you building your book? How are you sustaining business? How are you making the most out of each day, cranking out work, I get it billable hour I get it. I’m on board with you. However, as you know, having your own book of business your own clients, provides the freedom financially provides the freedom from a time perspective to spend with your family, if you can get those clients in the door and build that book. So to help you out with that today, I’ve got a friend of mine and a terrific sales trainer. Tom Alecia Ray, who is with the the managing partner of M three learning, and he’s going to talk to us today about the dirty word of sales. How’s it going, Tom?


Tom Latourette  [01:38]

Good, Steve, how you doing? Yeah, you are right. So many people think about sales. And whoa, hey, hold on a minute. I’m not that guy.


Steve Fretzin  [01:46]

It’s a five letter word, not a four letter. C seems like a four letter word. And you know, I talk about sales, free selling. And even that might turn a stomach because I have the word sales. And even though it has the word free after it that still might upset some poor little snowflakes out there. But anyways, give me a solid give a little background on yourself and your business, you know, so we can get a flavor of that.


Tom Latourette  [02:08]

Yeah. So you know, I’ve been national sales manager of manufacturing companies, distribution companies. But 25 years ago, I was managing with 50 salespeople, five regional managers, and one of my regional managers came in and said, Hey, I just read this great book called proactive sales management, it’s by this guy, skip Miller, we should hire him and come in. So we hired skip. He came in and worked in our company. I felt like, you know, I’m sure you’ve had these moments, Steve, where you feel like, you get hit in the head with a ton of bricks. Why didn’t I know that five years ago, 10 years ago, and I had a moment like that with skip. And then our organization grew from 37 million to $500 million. We became a $500 million company. And we got purchased by Fortune brands. And I decided to teach and coach and consult the M three philosophy, which was skip Miller’s stuff. And so I’ve been doing that for 10 years for organizations of all sizes, small, medium, large, entrepreneurial, fortune 500 companies. We do it in all industries and nonprofits, service industries, all of that. So yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [03:20]

we have a similar story. Actually, we talked about this when we first met that I worked with a coach when I was in the franchise space selling franchises, you know, nationally. And, you know, I thought I was the bee’s knees, I was racking up deals I was, you know, the one or two, you know, top players on the list and the whole thing. And this guy came in and just was like, Everything you’re doing is backwards, everything you’re doing is wrong. You’re chasing after people that aren’t even qualified, like, Oh, my God, oh, my God. And yeah, like, within six months, I had essentially doubled what I was doing when I thought it was good. So it’s just amazing how much coaching can help. And obviously, you and I have not only had the Kool Aid, but we’re now doing things right. And we thought we would do and helping as many people as we can to kind of see, you know, better ways of doing that. So


Tom Latourette  [04:04]

it’s not necessarily like I have to shift everything. It’s this place, I’m already in a player, right to take, what’s that small thing that one or two things that often I know, I shouldn’t be doing that. But now I just need to be I need to just proactively do it. I need to intentionally do it, versus just it happening, right?


Steve Fretzin  [04:22]

Or maybe just even having the accountability. You know, just having someone in your corner, you know, telling you you’re trying to lift benchpress eight times and you’re at six, you need someone to get you those extra two. You can do that. Let’s do it just do more. Right. Yeah. And I’ve got all kinds of different, you know, shoes and boots for different occasions and different types of people. So Right, exactly. What’s sort of the gist of the M three philosophy. What do you guys, you know, preaching that would be beneficial to professional service providers like attorneys?


Tom Latourette  [04:49]

Yeah, that’s great question. I mean, one of the things we talk so our whole premises, proactive sales and proactive sales management. It’s that space of let’s stop being reactive, and just kind of being cro-magnon, you know, just doing what we do really well, let’s get intentional about let’s think about what we’re doing. And there’s two places in a sales process that we try to help organizations really focus on. And the first is that discovery process, the very first or second conversation you’re having with somebody, and especially in professional services, what I find a lot in professional services is, I’m a great lawyer, I’ve gone to school to become a great lawyer, and lawyering is what I do really, really well. And so the first time I’m meeting somebody is, I want to tell you what makes me different from all the other lawyers. And I want to tell you my experience, and I won’t tell you everything that I’ve done, and here’s how I’ve earned my credentials, because I need to earn your credibility and trust, right? Yeah. But the reality is, in that first conversation, it’s really all about the other person. And how do I find out why they’re even having this conversation with me? What’s the problem they’re struggling with? What’s that problem costing them? What is that problem? And if I could fix that problem for them? What impact could that have on themselves, and their business? Whatever, right. And so, we all know those salespeople who the first time they meet you, it’s like, oh, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla bla bla me tell you all about, I liken it to one of the analogies I use is, you would never start a first date by saying, Hey, I know exactly the kind of guy you’re looking for. Let me tell you all about, here’s what I do


Steve Fretzin  [06:35]

better change up my approach to dating women, man,


Tom Latourette  [06:39]

you know, you would never do that you would never say, Hey, let me show you how much money I have in my bank account. Let me show you all my great and my scores and grades from Grammar School in high school. But I challenge most sales organizations to take a look at their introductory slide deck. And most of the time, our slide deck is, here’s our list of satisfied customers, here’s how many years we’ve been in business. Here’s who we are. Here’s who we focus on. Here’s our list of satisfied clients. Here’s our executive team. And we don’t get to customer until slide eight or nine, right?


Steve Fretzin  [07:17]

Well, I mean, even the fact that all lawyers know, when you go out on, you know, quote, a sales call, they call it a pitch meeting. And there’s a reason they call it a pitch meeting, because that’s what they’re doing, they’re going out in their pitching services. And even if there are questions asked, even if there is some level of discovery, I can almost guarantee based on working with, you know, 1000s of attorneys and being in this space, a long time that the questioning is limited, the questioning and the depth of the questioning that you and I are teaching is not at the level that it could be or should be to get where we really want to take people, which is to the depth of not just understanding the surface of their problems. But what’s beneath the surface. That’s really where so when you say, the cost of the problem, the impact of the problem, the how is this you know, what happens if nothing changes. And you can get the prospective client, the GC, the CEO, whomever, to open up, and really share personal and emotional elements of their situation, not the transactional elements and not things on the surface, right? That’s really where the business is made, not the team I’m bringing in and not the solutions. I’m going to where the free consulting I’m going to provide in this 30 minute meeting.


Tom Latourette  [08:29]

You we teach something, I’m sure you probably teach something very similar to this, we teach something called the three levels of why. Now when I see a lot of salespeople do business communication, folks, do they think their job is to ask questions. And so they ask this question, and the customer will actually give them some information. And they’ll go, Oh, great. Let me write that down. Now, let me ask you another question. And then let me ask you another question, instead of drilling down and get the answer to that one. And so that three levels are why is the first answer is a report answer. The second level is this rationalization answer. So somebody starts rationalizing why they’re doing something why that it was status quo, why we’re okay with the way we’ve always done it. Yeah, with the real piece, is that third or fourth question? And sometimes it’s not even a question. It’s just, hey, that’s interesting. Tell me more about that. Why are you guys doing it that way? You know, and that place of, we call it at least I like to say, increase your curiosity quotient, you know, just


Steve Fretzin  [09:31]

getting more curious. Right. And the interesting thing is that lawyers, you know, have that skill, it’s in there, they have to question people, they have to, you know, that’s what they went through a living, right? It’s their job, right? And so they do, but they do it in the academic sense in the matter in the matter they’re working on and with people that they’re deposing, or have on the stand or whatever the case might be. And the other thing you just said three of the best words that exist in business development, and that is, tell me more and then shut to your face, you know, yeah, yeah, someone tells you something. They didn’t give you all the details and just ask, you know, that sounds really challenging or interesting, or whatever the case might be. Tell me more about that. Yeah. Okay. And then zip it, and then wait in here, what comes next? And I’m going to add one more thing to that time. And this has really been a big push that I’ve had with my clients is Tell me more, and they do. Okay. And then I would the next step level of depth of question, if you haven’t had come out yet is, you know, do you have a specific example of how what happened and how that impacts? So let’s say for example, a lawyer is talking to someone about, you know, a divorce, and they’re getting the Tell me more, and yeah, I hate her for this. And I hate her for that, and blah, blah, blah, you know, and she’s a double cross, or whatever the case might be, right? There’s lots of pain on the table. Okay. And then the lawyer asks, you know, do you have an example of to of how she of when she did that type of thing, and the person gets into a story. Now what happens time when someone starts telling a story, that is, like an example or story of something from the past? That wasn’t a good story, right? It wasn’t a happy story. What happens in that discovery in that exploration?


Tom Latourette  [11:14]

Well, you find out what we find is that you find our we call it a restorative past, it’s either that I go back to that place that I want to be, or that place that I never, ever want to be in. Again, right. Yeah. And so then it’s the place. So how do I bring you to the future? Right, once I understand that place of hurt and anger and frustration and pain? Okay, great. How do we make sure that doesn’t occur? Again? What are the things we need to do? What does that future look like? Now?


Steve Fretzin  [11:46]

You know, what I try to get lawyers to and my clients, you know, listening to this are going to be nodding their head, as I say, it is, you know, we can get what I call a parent reasons for change, that’s good. So somebody’s saying, you know, my wife cheated on me, or let’s take a different legal issue, let’s say it’s, you know, my partner is stealing from the company or my partner is, you know, taking clients and maybe leaving, and I, you know, I don’t want to split up the business, something like a dispute or something like that. And the idea that we can take those apparent reasons and ask enough questions to drive them down to what I call compelling reasons. And the compelling reasons are the true reasons why someone’s going to change their situation, in this case, changing a lawyer or a law firm or engaging a lawyer or a law firm. And it’s the personal and emotional reasons of that individual that has nothing to do with the company has nothing to do with anything other than that person is the one who’s going to hire the lawyer. And if we can get that person to open up and share personal and emotional things, that’s a lot like me opening up to a therapist and saying, telling the therapist all my secrets, I don’t think at the end of that 50 minutes, because that’s all they give you from what I hear that, you know, hey, this was great, I feel so much better sharing all this personal information with you, and really releasing all that I’m gonna go find someone else next week to talk to, right, that’s not a real a real situation,


Tom Latourette  [13:05]

you’re going to keep drilling down. And the other piece is, especially in business conversations, when we start drilling down, it’s that space of I want to try to find what we call the quantified cost, the quantified impact. So great, I understand, here’s what happened. Let’s talk a little bit about what’s that cost you? What, how has that affected your organization? What’s that cost you in productivity? What’s that cost you in dollars? What’s that cost you in time. And if the customer can tell us that information in a discovery conversation, all of a sudden, we start uncovering the real reason, you know, the the return on investment reason, which all of a sudden creates a place where so for example, let’s say my services are going to cost somebody $100,000. And if I don’t do good discovery, if I don’t find out that quantified pain, and I say, Oh, my cost is on earth, whoa, 100,000. That’s a lot of money. I’m talking to another guy who’s doing it, he’ll do what you’re doing for 85,000. Now, that’s a different conversation, then if I find out that the problem you have is actually a $3 million problem. And you tell me all that and you’re the one who releases all of that information to me, and then I go, Wow, that’s a big problem. You know, I can help you fix that. It’s only going to cost you $100,000 Oh, when do I get started?


Steve Fretzin  [14:32]

It’s not a blade where you so you’re talking about, you know, ROI and breaking down a massive, you know, problem into a solution that’s miniscule in comparison from the standpoint of either expense or investment. And lawyers don’t really do that at all. Like they’ve got clients that have multibillion multimillion dollar, you know, companies and problems that are huge. And even if you’re at 650 An hour and it might end up being you know, three $400,000 and billable. else that may be minuscule or a drop in the bucket compared to what the real problems are costing that company and that could be hard costs and soft costs meaning the actual dollars and then the GCS time, the GCS energy, the GC is not sleeping at night worrying about these things, right? There’s a cost to that. And we’re not taking enough time to explore the detail in those meetings. Okay, I’ve


Tom Latourette  [15:23]

got a great story about what a great time we’re selling to a, we were working with a coolant company for a manufacturing organization. Okay. And their coolant that they sell, doesn’t smell whereas their competitors coolant did, right. Okay. And so, but their coolant was actually probably 15% higher than the competitor. So of course, the first place is, oh, I can’t charge 50. I can’t pay 50% more, until they started doing the quantified fan. And they found out that the guy on the plant floor, lost his girlfriend because his girlfriend wouldn’t go in his car anymore, because his car smelled like smell like, and he had to change his clothes in the garage anytime he wanted to come home. And again, it’s that space of like you said, both professional, but also personal pain, right? Yeah. And so now all of a sudden, they were able to show this person listen, you might be able to get your girlfriend back. Because of our cool and every you


Steve Fretzin  [16:19]

know, a lot more. We’re seeing we’re not only we’re helping people make money and do things more efficiently, but we’re getting love back into the decks. And what’s the coin? Can you quantify that? Probably? It’s unquantifiable. Alright, so there are lawyers listening that are saying, Alright, Steve, you and Tom are talking about when you get in front of a prospective client that yes, we need to ask questions, we need to do deep dive discovery, we need to get into the weeds. That’s all fine and good. Yeah, I’m not even getting a seat at the table like I my prospecting activities are limited. And I’m not even sure how to get the meeting or how to keep my energy up, or how to, you know, I’m building all these hours, how do I even get out there and in generate, you know, traction to get in front of new people. So what are some of the kind of key tips that you work with companies on salespeople on as it relates to getting in the door,


Tom Latourette  [17:08]

that’s a big issue today, too. And so skip founder of our organization, just published his seventh book called outbound it was all about prospecting. And there’s a few key things that are in that book in the space of so I want everybody on this call to think about on the podcast, think about energy. And energy is created by trying to find a pain trying to find a problem, right? And too many times we prospect by saying, Oh, let me tell you about me, here’s why you should talk to me. The reality is you want to think about what’s going on in that client’s world. And so what we recommend is three by three research. So when you start prospect, you take a look at Google, LinkedIn, and the company’s website that you’re prospecting, you try to find three compelling reasons that they may want to even have a conversation with you. And your conversation in a prospecting world should be about, Hey, are you suffering, you know, people we work with folks like you all the time, they’re telling us that these are the types of problems they’re having. I don’t know if those are the issues you’re struggling with. But I’d love to have a conversation with you see if I can help you.


Steve Fretzin  [18:21]

I love what you’re saying. And let’s take that a different direction to so most of the lawyers that are they’re going to prospect differently in the sense that they’re going to want to get referred in by another G. So that’s why a network is so I want to flip what you just said a little bit, too. They need to identify the top three pain points through the research you just mentioned, that they solve. And you’re not there to talk about the solutions, you’re there to share the problems. Because when you’re talking with your client, or when you’re networking or talking with strategic partners, you know, that could be CPAs, financial planners, other lawyers, and you share the top pain points that you’re solving, it might then be easier for them to relate that to a friend of theirs.


Tom Latourette  [19:08]

Oh, I have theirs. I know someone who’s struggling with that. Yeah, or Yeah, exactly.


Steve Fretzin  [19:13]

And again, it may be they’re struggling, you’re not saying you have these problems. I mean, even if you’re talking to a person, folks, you use a third party or you use open ended situation where yeah, these are the kinds of things that we solve our isolved and here are the problems people have and then that’s when start light bulbs may start popping.


Tom Latourette  [19:31]

I’m a big fan like I know you are. I’m a huge fan is I think I think the best way to get in door in the door is to get introduced in the door. And even if so, either one get introduced or just be able to say, I see you’re connected to Frank sent your somebody I should talk to but whatever that is, you know, just that introduction, or that connection can create a world of difference you know, most we’re seeing that in today’s world. It’s taking somewhere between 12 and 18 touches, to sometimes have a first conversation with somebody. If you’re only out bounding and trying to come in from the cold to try to create a real, you know you’re in a cold call and attract. But boy, if that’s a warm call, it takes maybe two or three if you get an introduction, and it may just take you a place to get somebody to return your call, but it’s going to significantly reduce your work.


Steve Fretzin  [20:27]

Yeah, and I’ve interviewed a lot of GCS, and I even have, you know, former GCS as clients general counsel’s and they will, you know, across the board say that even if they’re working with law firms and lawyers in their current situation, as a general counsel, if there’s a lawyer recommended to them by someone they trust, they’ll take the meeting. Now, that isn’t to say that you’re going to get the business, but they’ll take the meeting and out of curiosity out of interest out of the relationship they have with the person who’s recommending, then it’s the lawyers job to a build a relationship and be non salesy. Yeah. Okay, number one. And number two, is do your best to ask questions and identify that maybe, even when they say they’re happy with their current counselor, even when they say they’re fine, that’s a buyer’s sort of stock answer. Right? How are you doing with your CPA, Tom? Oh, it’s for my CPA. So it’s not your CPA is not responsive? Your CPA tells you about how much you’re gonna pay on tax day. And it’s a lot more than you thought. I mean, there’s a number of reasons why your CPE isn’t fine. But that’s your guttural reaction. When someone asks you a question. It’s


Tom Latourette  [21:34]

always funny, I liken it to you walk in, I need to buy a suit, I go to the department store, and I’m walking around and the salesperson goes, Hey, can I help you? Nope, just look. And that’s the nobody,


Steve Fretzin  [21:46]

even physically put your hands up to create a barrier between you and that salesperson to demonstrate the space? Yeah, that’s what we have been trained as buyers to do. So why are we surprised when GCS are hesitant to meet or when other people want to meet? So the only way to really do it these days, especially at high level is not called solicitation. It’s got to be done through networking. It’s got to be done through trust, being a trusted adviser to people.


Tom Latourette  [22:13]

And like we talked is when you have that conversation. It’s not how can I help you? Tell me a little bit about what’s going on, you know, and you just do really good discovery so that you’re not someone who is quote, unquote, selling something, you’re there to just understand


Steve Fretzin  [22:28]

and learn. So you’re more of a detective, right? But you had to soften up the questions. I even, you know, bring in Colombo. And if you’re under 30, you don’t even know who that is. Love it. Your fault played a character on TV called Columbo and he was a great detective. And one of the things that he did was just incredible levels of curiosity. And in some cases, feigning misunderstanding as a way to get to the truth. You know, and I apologize. I’m a little confused, helped me understand this. And then sure enough, the criminal would open up and say something I


Tom Latourette  [22:58]

think Ted Lascaux is today’s call Ted last Oh, he’s today’s Colombo, that place of somebody who was just isn’t pushing any. But it’s just sitting and learning and observing. It’s really powerful.


Steve Fretzin  [23:11]

Absolutely. And I want to sort of wrap up with a couple of suggestions around handling objections. And mostly when I teach my clients sales, free selling, we don’t have to deal with objections very often, mainly, because when you make the entire meeting about the prospective client, not about rates not about selling not about a solving. There’s less objections like how do people object? When you’ve said nothing or very little, there’s nothing objective. However, if there might be questions about rates, and that seems high, it might be about just the solution. There might be objections, there might be stalls, like, this sounds great. Let me think about it. What is like your top one or two objection handling techniques, keeping in mind that the language has to be so soft and so natural that it doesn’t even come across like a technique. I hate to


Tom Latourette  [24:05]

go old school all the way back. But I’m such a huge fan of feel felt found. Oh, man that is understood back. Right. I understand how you feel. Others have felt the same way. But here’s what they found. And it’s so powerful. You know, I mean, it works really well. Exactly. Like you talked, it’s soft. It’s really soft. And it. Yeah, definitely, I know exactly what you’re talking about. A lot of the folks we work with have that exact same problem. But let me just tell you, when they do this, or when they work this way, here’s what they’ve seen here. They found and so just being conscious about using that feel felt on the other thing we teach is if you do a great job and discovery, and that’s why discovery is so critical. And if you find the quantified pain, and you keep going back to what you heard early, well here’s, I don’t know. Let’s reinforce the issue. The whole reason we’re having this conversation in the first place is you told me that you needed to fix solve this, you told me it was costing you this much money, you told me it was costing you this much time. That’s why we’re having this


Steve Fretzin  [25:13]

time. Yeah, if you go back to that not only does it demonstrate a level of understanding and a level of listening, that maybe they haven’t experienced before with another lawyer, but then it’s so much easier to keep them in that emotional, personal state to make a decision and to drive it forward with urgency. And that’s the big problem is people, buyers today, are risk averse, they’re hesitant, they’re price sensitive. There’s all these things, and I am too and so are you everyone is that’s just the way that we have developed as buyers, okay, and some slower than others. That’s okay. Yeah. And so people need to when we can make it or they can make it about themselves and their own reasoning for moving forward. And our job is just to reiterate what they told us and even write down and take notes and use their own words, not question summarizing, right. So I think you said this, and then I say something completely different, or that’s not as powerful is when they use their own words,


Tom Latourette  [26:08]

we use this thing, we call it the second column beyond. So when you’re talking about stalls, so let’s get in and none of us are closing a deal on the first day, we’re always a second, third, fifth call something like that. And it’s a process. And it’s critical that when we start off each one of those calls, last time we talked, you told me these were the issues, the first discovery conversation, you told me these were the issues, and we purposefully start conversations, reminding why we’re here in the first place. Today’s agenda is this, but I want to remind you that this is why we’re having this conversation in the first place. Yeah.


Steve Fretzin  [26:47]

The other thing I’ll add to it is just the ability to have empathy, and to show that you’re listening and to, you know, be able to leverage it to move it forward. If it’s let’s say, it’s about saying the rates seem high, if you’re able to go back to the well, and talk about the problems, remember, you mentioned earlier about this, and that and the cost that you were incurring? And all that. And based on that, you know, do you feel that, that these rates are suitable for that? And if they say, Oh, they seem high, you know, compared to what, that’s how you come across it. And sometimes when rates are higher, you know, you can be more efficient. So you could demonstrate, you know, ways that your fees Yeah, while they’re higher, you know, the way that we staff that the way that we work and attack them out better than maybe how you were before when it was done efficiently. So there’s ways around those things, you know, you just have to get basically the sale may the or the new client committed. And then some of the other stuff you have to work through like rates and timing. And although it comes a little more academic, and just sort of happens so many


Tom Latourette  [27:45]

times, there’s a difference between total cost and price, right. And I think getting customers to really see that price is different than the total cost of what I pay when I’m working with somebody. So yeah,


Steve Fretzin  [27:56]

and also your experience, you know, I’m not the cheapest guy on the block. So you paying me for the 15 years, I’ve done nothing but hustled to work and help attorneys grow, you’re paying for that education, that knowledge, that expertise, you know, I’m not a spring chicken, and it’s not like I’m new to the space.


Tom Latourette  [28:11]

And that experience and expertise should probably save you Oh, yeah, hours billable hours in the future? Because I’m not going to have to learn the business while I’m charging you.


Steve Fretzin  [28:21]

Yes, exactly. So there are lawyers listening to this time who say, You know what, I’ve got some businesses I work with, with sales teams, and geez, Tom would be great to bring it on, you know, to help my client out? How do they get in touch with you? What’s your


Tom Latourette  [28:34]

email address is Tom at M three learning my cell phone number is 847-528-2738. And our website is m three So those are three easy ways to touch base. I’m also on LinkedIn, and Twitter. So


Steve Fretzin  [28:49]

yeah, and it’s just so great to you know, get on to have this conversation and just have an open, you know, sales compensation. And, you know, look, we can call it business development, we can call it marketing, we call it you know, Freddy, the clown. I mean, we call it whatever we want, the end of the day, you know, we’re out solving problems, you know, lawyers are out solving problems, but you can’t solve problems. If you don’t have the clients. You know, we have to have a plan, we have to execute, we have to have discovery, we have to flip around the way that sales has been done. So it becomes more about asking, listening, learning, qualifying, right, not about pitching, selling, convincing, those are the outdated elements that you know, you and I came up on, but I think now realize, you know, with buyers and how they’ve changed, we just keep pushing a rope. We’ve got to flip the switch on a new way of running meetings that’s going to be more effective for everybody.


Tom Latourette  [29:40]

I’m going to recommend everybody watched. It’s a two minute video. It’s called it’s not about the male. I’m sure you’ve seen it Steve. It’s a funny a woman has a nail sticking in her head. And the man she’s talking to is telling her Hey, I can pull that nail out quickly. And I think when you watch that video so many times especially if For those of for the lawyers who we’ve seen this problem 100 times before I know exactly how to fix it. So let me just come in and let me solve it for you. I think our job is not necessarily to go in and solve the problem, our job is to help the client really voice the issue that they’re having and come to their conclusion that, oh, you’re somebody who could help me do that. So you know, it’s that let’s not jump in and try to pull the nail, let’s actually help the customer recognize that they have a problem recognize what it’s costing them, and that they need to be powerful and making that decision. So


Steve Fretzin  [30:38]

absolutely, spot on. So Tom, thanks so much for being on the show. Yeah, we have a good time together. Hey, everybody, listen, thank you for spending some time with Tom and I today, you know, if you didn’t get a couple of takeaways, a couple of things to jot down and you weren’t paying attention. You’re sleeping through the show. Don’t do that. It’s always best to stay awake and driving, especially if you’re driving don’t fall asleep. Even if you got a Tesla. Yeah, listen, it’s all about being that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Take care everybody be safe be well.


Narrator  [31:12]

Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes