Travis Hoechlin: Secrets to Successful Legal Marketing

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Travis Hoechlin discuss:

  • Marketing for your law firm.
  • Where money is being wasted on marketing.
  • Isolating your target market audience.
  • Three marketing secrets that lawyers don’t know.

Key Takeaways:

  • Whether you have your own firm or work for someone else, you can still have independence and power, you just need to learn how to make it rain.
  • Track what you are doing for your marketing. You need to know your ROI.
  • You need to make sure your Google My Business page is claimed, updated, and accurate.
  • Have a line in the water with your local community. You can absolutely compete with larger firms if you target those near you.

“I always ask my boys, ‘How is your marketing doing? What kind of return on investment are you getting from this?’ And if they can’t tell me that, I know they’re not tracking it.” —  Travis Hoechlin

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Episode References: 

About Travis Hoechlin: 

Born and raised in Southern California by an entrepreneurial family, my dream had always been to own a successful company that made a difference in people’s lives. With over 15 years of experience in the legal marketing industry, today we help hundreds of law firms grow their firms and attract new clients.

When not working I enjoy spending time with my wife Jessie, daughters Blake and Payton, and our dog Bailey. I love to travel, listen to live music, play golf, and watch sports (Los Angeles Lakers, USC football, and Los Angeles Angels).

Connect with Travis Hoechlin: 


Cell Phone: 714-261-0185










Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, are you struggling with that work life balance that you hear so much about? I’d love to have you come to How to Become a Rainmaker to Achieve Work Life Balance with me and my friend Jennifer Gilman on January 26th. Just go to Fretzin. com slash events. To sign up today. I know you’re gonna love it.

[00:00:19] Steve Fretzin: Hope to see you there

[00:00:26] Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive Helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now here’s your host Steve Fretzin

[00:00:48] Steve Fretzin: Well, hey everybody welcome to be that lawyer.

[00:00:50] Steve Fretzin: I hope you are having a wonderful day today It’s another opportunity for you to be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker. You know, this show is, is all about helping you do that. And we’re going to, we’re going to continue to bring on phenomenal guests. Uh, like I have today in Travis, Travis, how you doing, man?

[00:01:06] Travis Hoechlin: Good. How are you doing today?

[00:01:08] Steve Fretzin: Good, good. So you, you, you just told me you’ve got like a chest cold. So, uh, what does that feel like? Just the pressure? What is that? Just coughing? Yes, Ken,

[00:01:15] Travis Hoechlin: just right in the chest. Just can’t cough it up. But we’ll, we’ll, we’ll play

[00:01:20] Steve Fretzin: injured today. Yeah. You get extra points on this show.

[00:01:24] Steve Fretzin: I don’t know if I told you that when we started, but that’s the way, that’s the way we roll here. Yeah. We do love to start the show with our quote of the show. And you’ve got a Mark Cuban. I’m a fan of Mark Cuban. I watched him on Shark Tank and I always felt like he was the level headed one of them all and just really, really smart business guy.

[00:01:40] Steve Fretzin: And so here’s the, the quote from Mark Cuban, everybody. Unless you have a reliable, duplicatable, scalable, and consistent way to bring in potential customers, you don’t have a business, you have a hobby. So, first of all, welcome to the show. Second of all, tell me about why that quote is your, is your favorite quote.

[00:01:59] Travis Hoechlin: Well, I think, I think it really hit home when I’ve been doing this, doing, uh, attorney marketing for over 15 years and, uh, about, and I know we’ll kind of get into this, but. About five years ago, we started our own on our own shingle and did it ourselves. And it really made us realize that, especially in the beginning, we know how to market an attorney’s law firm better than we knew how to market our own business as we were trying to, you know, go from sales guy and all that.

[00:02:24] Travis Hoechlin: Now you have a bunch of different hats. We realized real quickly that, uh, when we, when my business partners and I saw that quote, we’re like, wow, that is, that’s all in a very, that shoe very much fits our clients, but it certainly hit home with us as well.

[00:02:39] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I yeah, I mean, it’s it’s there’s a lot of people doing a lot of different types of businesses and if they’re not controlling how they’re developing the business and getting it in a regular on a regular basis, then, you know, yeah, I might be.

[00:02:52] Steve Fretzin: I would also say it might be a job. You don’t have a business. You have a job, right? Because maybe you’re just doing everyone else’s work like a lawyer might. Or you’re just kind of, you know, taking whatever you can get and not, not living the life that maybe you and I are living as, you know, see, you know, present CEOs and running stuff where we’re profitable and, and, you know, able to take vacations and have a good time.

[00:03:12] Travis Hoechlin: Absolutely. We see that all the time for sure. That’s it.

[00:03:14] Steve Fretzin: That’s it. So Travis Hoakland, you are the CEO of Rise Up Media and I would love for everyone, you know, you and I had a great conversation a few weeks ago. Primarily talking about, you know, marketing for lawyers and all that, but let’s, let’s get into your background and how you got into legal marketing and leading up to that, be that lawyer tipping point.

[00:03:36] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know how far back we want to go, but, uh, my, my background was, um, in sports, I played baseball through college and, uh, thought that what I was going to do until I retired, obviously that was, uh, I think every kid thinks that. Uh, but I got into sales and marketing and, uh, was in the mortgage business for a long, long time.

[00:03:55] Travis Hoechlin: And then, uh, you know, 2007, 2008 hit and just out of kind of sheer luck, I was approached by a friend of mine that was in the legal marketing space with a big box store company and, um, brought me on and kind of cut my teeth. That’s where I cut my teeth and learning this business and, uh, was able to work with.

[00:04:15] Travis Hoechlin: By literally thousands of law firms all over the country. And, you know, I guess like most, probably a lot of your viewers that, that hung their own shingle at some point, uh, you know, you, you figure you can make the widget a little better than where you were at. And we, uh, finally made the leap and did so.

[00:04:31] Travis Hoechlin: And probably like a lot of your, your listeners wish we would’ve done it five years earlier.

[00:04:36] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, yeah, it’s I, I spoke to a lawyer today. In fact, he’s been in business 10 months and yeah, he’s just, he’s just loving the independence and the freedom and the, you know, I’m in charge, I can make my own decisions and it doesn’t mean it’s easy and it doesn’t mean it’s for everyone.

[00:04:50] Steve Fretzin: But for many people, I mean that, and people have heard me talk about my father, Larry, the lawyer. But like. His best words of wisdom to me were, if you ever have the chance to work for yourself, do it. And, um, and it is the greatest advice I ever had, you know, and if I had a quote of the show, that would be it for my pops.

[00:05:06] Travis Hoechlin: So, yeah, same thing. My dad was a doctor. Uh, he was an ER doc still as an ER doc, but had his own family practice for years and years and years when I was growing up. And he always said, Hey, listen, go, uh, he always encouraged us to go. Start our own business and work for ourselves. And, uh, that was good advice.

[00:05:24] Travis Hoechlin: I’ll give the same


[00:05:25] Steve Fretzin: my kid. Well, and here’s, here’s the dirty little secret for lawyers that work at, at large and mid market law firms too, is you can work for yourself. At your firm and it involves being a rainmaker. So if you can make it rain, if you can build a million to 5 million book of business that you can take anywhere you want, no one’s really pushing you around.

[00:05:44] Steve Fretzin: No one’s really telling you what to do. They’re kind of leaving you alone. Let you let you bring in the business and feed the troops. And you know, you don’t have to deal with all the entrepreneurial stuff that I got to hire an admin or I got to do this or that. I mean, yeah, there might be some of that, but that that’s yeah.

[00:05:58] Steve Fretzin: That, that is a thing that you, that you are under their umbrella, but you’re still kind of running your own business under their umbrella.

[00:06:06] Travis Hoechlin: Sure. No, that makes all the sense of the world. I mean, yeah. Now you get kind of back to that quote, right? If you can, you can bring to some degree, if you can get business in the door, it, it, it frees you up to make a lot of good decisions.

[00:06:19] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what the show is all about. Everybody, you know, that. Travis, you, um, you’ve been doing this marketing thing. So I’m going to ask you a question. I think you’re going to, you’re going to have some real good insights into it. Just lawyers. I mean, look, they don’t go into law to sell. They don’t go into law to market.

[00:06:33] Steve Fretzin: They don’t go into law to do the business side of it. And now it’s become, you know, critical for their success. Why do you think they, they dislike marketing so much?

[00:06:44] Travis Hoechlin: I think I can just relate it back what I’ve seen with our clients. And it kind of goes back to my dad as well. And when I first got into this business, he didn’t understand why did lawyers need, need a website?

[00:06:54] Travis Hoechlin: Why do they need to market? I said, dad, it’s not like, you know, 25, 30 years ago when. You were one of two family practice doctors in Norco, California. You know what I mean? So yeah, they opened the yellow page and you had a 50, 50 shot where they’re going to come and your doors were next to each other. So you might even get some crossover is trying to go to the other doctor that goes into yours.

[00:07:14] Travis Hoechlin: But when the internet came, it opens the doors to where people can look for a specialist or, uh, or an expert in a particular field, you know, across counties, across States or what have you. And I think what, what I, what I found is, is that attorneys aren’t comfortable with this stuff. Like my dad said, I never took one business class in medical school and a lot of my lawyer clients say the same thing.

[00:07:37] Travis Hoechlin: I don’t know anything about this. So it’s, um, and, and there’s. You know, there’s, there’s a lot of shady characters out there in the marketing world, uh, people who approach us as well, that you just kind of earn that truck. And so if you can find that trusted advisor that is an expert in this field, you could, you can do very, very well.

[00:07:56] Travis Hoechlin: I think just the lack of understanding this and understanding, and I know we’ll get into this a little bit, what, what type of marketing best fits them as opposed to just kind of a one stop shop. And this is. Once you fit all, you know,

[00:08:11] Steve Fretzin: I mean, I think you’re right that there’s, there’s It used to not be allowed to market.

[00:08:16] Steve Fretzin: I mean, even putting in a, you know, putting a, you know, something in a newspaper where you could get, you could get fined on that. And then I think on top of that, yeah, there’s a lot of bad actors and a lot of, uh, inexperienced actors, uh, out there. And I mean, one year I spent 25 grand on a website and I remember telling the guy right off the bat when I hired him, the most important thing is, is that I want the website to convert.

[00:08:39] Steve Fretzin: When someone comes to the website, I want it to convert to leads. And 25 grand later, I looked him in the eye and I said, what’s the problem with this? You’re finished with the website. What’s the problem with the website goes, well, this isn’t going to convert. I go, well, what. What did I say to you? Like the first sentence out of my mouth about what I wanted and what I needed out of a website.

[00:08:57] Steve Fretzin: And I was like, my head exploded. And, and I just, I just had to cry into my, in, you know, into my wife’s arms at that point. But it can be very frustrating. No doubt about it. Yeah. It’s

[00:09:06] Travis Hoechlin: funny you say that. I did literally just got off a phone call with the client where I was like, listen, priority. Number one, when the attorney comes to us is I need to think most of their business, if not all of their business more times than not comes from referrals.

[00:09:19] Travis Hoechlin: So priority number one needs to be conversion. How do I convert more of the people? Cause referrals typically comes in twos and threes. Listen, I’ve been doing this a long time. So as you. All of my friends and family, whether they get a DUI or get a car accident and need a divorce or will try whatever the call is, if they don’t know an attorney, the call is to me because they follow my social media and know that I’m tied into 300 plus law firms across the U.

[00:09:42] Travis Hoechlin: S. And so I typically have two or three names. As I’m all of my clients over the years have always told me, cause I don’t want the liability of, I just gave you this one name. So two or three names are given. Yeah. And are you winning the beauty contest? Right. Yeah. Is it hard to find it? Do you have a website?

[00:10:00] Travis Hoechlin: First off, if you don’t, you know, you’re, you’re losing right there. And the number two is. Is it easy to find your contact information and all that good stuff? And this is a clearly state what you do and make sure that thing is converting at a high level for sure.

[00:10:13] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. There’s just a lot of moving parts and it really helps to have someone that knows what they’re doing to make sure it’s all, it’s all working and working in the, in the lawyer’s favor, there are lawyers that do spend money on.

[00:10:26] Steve Fretzin: And sometimes it’s like, uh, I’m trying to remember who said this. It might’ve been, um, it might’ve been, um, Jocelyn Brumbaugh, who’s, uh, the local here in Chicago who said, you know, something like random acts of marketing. And I think there’s a lot of lawyers that just throw money at different things. I’m going to try to talk, or I’m going to try that.

[00:10:43] Steve Fretzin: What are you seeing lawyers kind of wasting the most money on that? Well,

[00:10:50] Travis Hoechlin: I think there’s a bunch of different answers to that, but even taking a step back, I, my biggest pet peeve is, and what we try to help our clients do, even though it’s not in our job description, it’s part of what we do just by default now, and it’s tracking what, what you’re doing.

[00:11:07] Travis Hoechlin: What are, what is your return on investment? What’s your ROI on that? You know, I could tell you, you know, a billboards or radio ad running radio ads for a week doesn’t do anything that’s more of a long game. I think it’s figuring out whether it’s pay per click or SEO on a website or billboards or, or radio.

[00:11:26] Travis Hoechlin: What timeframe should you be doing though? Like to say, you know, we get clients all the time. Hey, I’m going to throw a bunch of money at you. I want my website to show up in Los Angeles for personal injury next week or whatever. And it’s like, we won’t, we won’t take that business because that expectation is wrong.

[00:11:41] Travis Hoechlin: And so what is, what, whatever you’re doing, what is the right expectation? Right. So where, where you should see results. And then number two, are you tracking it? And, and I always ask clients when we say like, what, how is your marketing doing? What kind of return on investment are you getting from this? And if they can’t tell me that I know they’re not tracking it well, right.

[00:12:04] Travis Hoechlin: And so we give them the tools to like, if you’re spending, no, there’s PI client. I’m sure you have PI attorneys that listen to this and they can get, you know, we have clients that gotten 20 million, you know, settlements from, from, from a case. And I understand this will blow the. Well, I’m about to say out of the water from a return on investment standpoint.

[00:12:20] Travis Hoechlin: But I think the biggest thing is, is what I tell my clients is like, if you’re expecting a, you should expect about a five to 10 to one return on your money. If you’re doing that, you’re in the right spot. You know, I certainly agree with tracking every phone call, figuring out down to the penny as we do here at our company, what each, which marketing strategy is getting that way, you know, whether to throw another dollar at it or to cut it out completely.

[00:12:46] Travis Hoechlin: But I would think. My biggest recommendation is make sure you’re tracking them and be able to listen to the phone calls and pinpoint where that call is coming from. What I see a lot of folks come to us, spend a little bit of money in a lot of different places. A little, a little bit is a relative, I realized that, but a little bit of money in a lot of different places and then track none of it and trying to figure out if it’s working or not.

[00:13:12] Travis Hoechlin: And they go, I, and here’s the key indicator. I feel like it’s not working.

[00:13:19] Steve Fretzin: You shouldn’t care. It’s a feeling.

[00:13:22] Travis Hoechlin: The feeling, let’s take feelings out of it, right? Yeah. Yeah. That’s the biggest, biggest takeaway of if I, if I could have one wish, whether they’re my client or not, is that they have the tools to track this.

[00:13:35] Travis Hoechlin: So, you know, whether there’s a lot of times we’re running multiple Kim, pay per click SEO, LSAs, social media, where’s the business coming from? Like everything we do is month to month. Like I have no dog in the fight of let’s, let’s get rid of things that aren’t working and let’s target it for things that are, and you’re not going to know that by a feeling or a gut feel it’s, it’s data and what, where are you getting your cases from?

[00:13:59] Steve Fretzin: Well, the other element to this is I don’t think lawyers do a very good job of isolating who their targets are. And there’s a number of different targets. There’s a target for new hires. You want to try to attract new hires. That’s a big deal. There’s a target for referrals and lawyers that would be looking at your website or your marketing to refer you.

[00:14:18] Steve Fretzin: And there’s direct targets, the people that would actually engage you and engage your services. And are the marketing avenues that you’re choosing directed at those people, or are they again,

[00:14:29] Travis Hoechlin: random? Yeah, we’re in, in you and I see that all the time. Yeah, definitely. How know what you’re. It’s not a, um, it’s not a, uh, aim, get ready, fire, you know, type of thing is they don’t do it backwards, right?

[00:14:43] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah, it’s make sure, you know, where you’re, you’re targeting and set up the right campaign for that, for that particular target. Yeah,

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[00:16:45] Steve Fretzin: So the, the question and one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is I know that you’ve got some secrets that the, uh, you’re willing to share on my show and I wanted to start off and just say, look, if we break it down to three marketing secrets that lawyers generally don’t know that you can share, let’s just, just now let’s, let’s, you know, take them one at a time and break them down a little bit, but what would be the number one secret that you would like to share that you think?

[00:17:10] Steve Fretzin: Would, would, you know, open, make, you know, make someone’s head explode or something like that. Yeah. I don’t know if it’s pressure.

[00:17:15] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah. I don’t know if it’s something that most, uh, some of these may be, uh, things that they don’t know, but I think by and large, there are things that people are aware of, but I don’t know if they put enough emphasis on how important they are.

[00:17:28] Travis Hoechlin: Okay. And I think the first one is, is. It’s your Google, my business page or Google business page, the name, every, every third Thursday, it seems like, but it’s what it is is if you Google your firm’s name, it’s on the, if you’re on a desktop, it’s on the right hand side and it has a couple pictures. I’ll have a map and it’ll have your firm’s contact information linked to the website, things of that nature.

[00:17:51] Travis Hoechlin: I think first of all, claiming that it back to the referral thing, make sure it’s easy for your clients when they do it, when they get your name, they’re going to these. And they’re typing in your name and

[00:18:04] Steve Fretzin: they’re going, they’re going down, they’re going, they were going on their phones mostly. Right. I mean, that’s how we’re doing a lot of searching

[00:18:09] Travis Hoechlin: a majority of it these days.

[00:18:10] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah. Right. And so make sure it’s easy for them to find you plain and simple and and make sure you still make sure you’re claiming your page. And it gives you more visibility, uh, reviews are a huge thing. Google has gone and we’ll get into some more of this, I’m sure. But Google’s pushed all their chips in the middle, in my opinion, with the review, right?

[00:18:31] Travis Hoechlin: Because we’re all almost trained to do that over the years, especially the last 10 years, we’re looking for a restaurant or, you know, uh, or a doctor or lawyer or whatever, we’re, we’re reading the review. So make sure you’re, and I think what lawyers, a lot of times lawyers will say, what, no, I’m just not going to participate.

[00:18:51] Travis Hoechlin: Reviews are happening, whether you decide to participate,

[00:18:55] Steve Fretzin: right? It’s just, you either control them or you’re a, or you’re a victim of them.

[00:18:58] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah. You’re letting it go on autopilot, which I don’t recommend whatsoever, but make it just 89 percent of people, uh, say they’re, they’re picking that business or service based on review.

[00:19:10] Travis Hoechlin: And I have some numbers written down here. 9 percent of folks will not pick. Uh, a business or a service, if they have a one or two star. So if you think, if you’re, if you’re thinking is I’m just not going to do that. And I’m just going to let folks who have a negative experience or 10 or 20 times more likely to leave a review than folks that are positive.

[00:19:30] Travis Hoechlin: We do that at restaurants all the time. Yeah, maybe the best restaurant ever. And we leave and we tell our friends about it, but we don’t give leave a review. Someone brings you cold food and doesn’t check on you at all. Uh, you’re, you’re ticked off and you’re going to leave a review. So you can’t just leave it to chance.

[00:19:45] Travis Hoechlin: Make sure you’re, there’s stats here that say 60 percent of people will leave a review if you ask, and I, I understand it’s a, it’s an awkward question to ask people sometimes, right? Like, Hey, go, go tell, go tell people how great

[00:20:00] Steve Fretzin: I am. Well, yeah, yes, but yes and no, I think there’s a timing. There’s timing to do it.

[00:20:04] Steve Fretzin: So Travis, you’re the work you did on my website, the work you’ve done for my marketing, the results I’m seeing are phenomenal. I just want to tell you how much I appreciate all your efforts. You would then say to me.

[00:20:15] Travis Hoechlin: Go ahead and can you leave

[00:20:16] Steve Fretzin: me a review? Right? Like it’s a na, it’s a natural, I’m on a high from what has happened, and lawyers don’t realize that their clients are so grateful and happy that they got ’em out of the sticky situation they’re in, or help them get a, a positive resolution or whatever that like, just to say, Hey, would, you know, this would really be meaningful to me if you could, what you just said to me.

[00:20:35] Steve Fretzin: Can you, can you just, if I send you a link, can you just click it and they’re gonna do it?

[00:20:40] Travis Hoechlin: And people, I think at this point, most people understand what’s going on here. What’s the method of the madness of it? It’s not a, it’s not an ego stroke or anything like that. It’s helping your business. Right. And right on.

[00:20:53] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah. So that’s definitely. And also claiming that helps you show up in the map. We call it a three pack. Like if you were to Google, I don’t know, uh, Carl’s bad personal injury attorney, though, There’ll be three listings in the map that show up and a lot of that, and that has to do with claiming your, your GMB, getting reviews, so on and so forth, making sure you’re doing that, because it’s going to give you more visibility outside of those referrals that are already coming to you.

[00:21:20] Travis Hoechlin: That’s, that’s Google’s way of keeping things local. So the big, huge firm that. You know, that you think you can’t compete with you can in your local market, right? If they’re across the state or across the county and, and you’re able to show up in the three pack there, you’re going to serve your local market, which is what a lion’s share of firms are doing or wanting anyway.

[00:21:40] Travis Hoechlin: So make sure you’re doing that.

[00:21:42] Steve Fretzin: Okay. Nice. Nice. All right. Well, that’s, that’s a good start. I mean, a lot, there are people who know and, and, and understand that, but they don’t, they don’t, not doing the right things with that, with that, you know, Google, you know, owning their Google page or their Google link.

[00:21:56] Steve Fretzin: Um, what would be the second, the second secret? The second

[00:21:59] Travis Hoechlin: one is, uh, they’re called local service ads. I don’t know if you, these are about two years old. It’s one of Google’s new, newer products. I would go on the, I would go out on a limb and say, but any, any attorney that’s listening and whether they use a survey, uh, an agency like us to manage them or not, it’s neither here nor there, but they should have a line in the water with local service set.

[00:22:23] Travis Hoechlin: And the reason why I say that is. It’s it’s Google’s new pay per call program. So if you were to Google Phoenix, personal injury lawyer, you’re on a phone, you’ll see two faces show up at the top. If you’re on a desktop, you may say two or three, depending on the market that you’re in. Um, but what that is, is Google’s new pay per call program.

[00:22:42] Travis Hoechlin: And so you only, exactly what it sounds like. You only pay when your phone rings and even better than that for your folks that are even may be in the category of risk averse. Is that when phone calls come in, if it’s not in the right practice area or the right geography or wrong number or sales call or a bot or any of this other garbage, you can actually dispute that call and get your money back.

[00:23:05] Travis Hoechlin: So for example, if you don’t, let’s say I’m full of hot air and you light up these campaigns and your phone, it’s cricket. No, no, nobody called. You’re not, you’re out. No money. Yeah, literally. So there it’s really. So that’s why I say I, I go out on a limb and say, everyone should be doing this.

[00:23:25] Steve Fretzin: I mean, is it, is it significantly more expensive than pay per click because of, of the fact that you’re only paying per call?

[00:23:31] Travis Hoechlin: Um, I think where you have to narrow it down is cost per acquisition. And I’ll give you an example, like in, in, um, in Southern California where we’re based with pay per click and they both work. So I have no dog in the fight. We manage both those types of things. Paper. It’s just different. Um, but the answer, typically your cost per acquisition.

[00:23:50] Travis Hoechlin: Is typically lower with local service ads, because like a car accident attorney in LA, it could be 350 to 500 per click, right? Let’s say it’s 500 per click. You are, um, you’re only, if someone’s doing a good job of running a campaign for you, you’re converting probably 20 to 25%. Of those clicks into a phone call.

[00:24:15] Travis Hoechlin: Right? So let’s say this one, do you forget 2, 500, right? You need five clicks to equal one focal. It doesn’t mean it’s the case. It just means it’s a phone call you’re having a conversation. Yeah. So with local service ads, like in LA, for example, and they vary on practice area and geography, like, um, but in LA for just to make a comparison, and they’re about 300 a phone call for a local service app, right?

[00:24:39] Travis Hoechlin: There’s some different, um, so it’s, it’s much cheaper based on per call with local service ads in most markets. They’ll vary as time goes on. These are relatively new. Um, if you’re not seeing them come up in your, for your practice area and your market is because Google doesn’t start serving those ads up until there’s at least two people, uh, two firms competing.

[00:25:01] Travis Hoechlin: But if you’re in, I don’t know, Toledo, Ohio, looking for immigration, you don’t see those ads show up. It’s a very good chance. It’s because. There is at least two firms showing up in that are signed up in that market.

[00:25:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So local service ad sounds like a really good option for people that have maybe struggled with pay per click or paying the fees that the endless fees that seem to happen with pay per click, especially if they’re not.

[00:25:25] Steve Fretzin: Uh, if they’re not, you know, getting, you know, the conversions they want or getting enough, enough track traction with it, a hundred percent,

[00:25:32] Travis Hoechlin: a hundred percent, it’s really for the risk aversion. And like I said, it’s, it’s probably some of the best marketing I’ve seen in my 15 years. Okay. It’s kind of how pay per click was.

[00:25:42] Travis Hoechlin: Way back in the day when that first came out, but yes, I’d highly encourage any of your clients to, and you have to be on the, on the spot and make sure you’re putting in those buttes so you’re getting your money back. But

[00:25:53] Steve Fretzin: if it doesn’t exist in your area, so let, I’m in a, I’m in a suburb of Chicago called Deerfield and I want to, I want to do that local service ad and I don’t see it exist.

[00:26:01] Steve Fretzin: Should I talk to a lawyer friend of mine who does the same thing and say, Hey, we should both do this. And you know, yeah, we might be competing, but really not. We’re just need, we both want that business. I

[00:26:13] Travis Hoechlin: would a hundred percent. We’ve actually, there’s some parts of the market where in certain practice areas where it was, I’m like, do you have a buddy that you want to be the king of the castle for at least a few weeks until your, your competitors start seeing your mug show up on the top and go, what the heck is that?

[00:26:31] Travis Hoechlin: But I would highly encourage. The, if those ads aren’t showing up, I’m a big fan of the buddy system. Okay. All right. That’s why I brought it up. I thought you’d call, call for your listeners, whoever you call and get signed up. Uh, they owe you dinner because I, I promise you they’re gonna be happy with it,

[00:26:49] Steve Fretzin: but, all right.

[00:26:50] Steve Fretzin: Nice, nice, nice. All right, so, so we’ve got two secrets. We got one to go. What’s the last, the last,

[00:26:55] Travis Hoechlin: yeah, the, yeah. The last one I would say is some of these, I was just at a conference over in Thailand of all places where all the top gurus of, in our world, the SEO world we’re, we’re, we’re at. But, um, and, and Google really is monitoring user engagement.

[00:27:09] Travis Hoechlin: Now, this is kind of probably down a rabbit hole a little bit, but. It goes back to the, kind of relates to the beginning of our talk here is like, make sure your website is engaging. It doesn’t have the information. Is it, is it making people stick? If Google’s seeing that they’re going to a website and clicking out in a few seconds, they’re not getting the result that they were looking for.

[00:27:33] Travis Hoechlin: And if you are competing on an SEO basis where you’re trying to get your website to show up, if you’re seeing a, if Google is seeing that the studies are starting to show that they’re starting to pull you down off the ranking, if you’re, if they’re not a gating. So what does that mean having video on your website?

[00:27:51] Travis Hoechlin: It’s engaging, keeping people there longer, right? And having good content, I wrote down it, having a good form fill where people can fill out and ask questions, having chat, having paper, you know, click the calls, having social proof on your website, make sure they’re not having to click out to go read your reviews.

[00:28:08] Travis Hoechlin: Pull some of those reviews onto your homepage. And so we call that user engagement, making sure people are, it’s giving signals to Google that people are going there, staying on your website for a longer period of time, and you’re going to see higher conversions and you’re going to get more visibility.


[00:28:25] Steve Fretzin: that’s really, that’s really important, you know, the time that people stay on your site and giving them reasons to convert and make, and again, now we’re back to my story at the beginning where, you know, I had a website that did nothing to convert. And so that’s, that’s really what websites are, are.

[00:28:39] Steve Fretzin: There’s evidence and proof and, and, and things that you want to put on your website to, to people, you know, know that you’re the expert that you can’t say that you are, if you’re a lawyer. But they all, but there’s also the, you know, you want people to reach out and call and email and fill out a form on the thing.

[00:28:53] Steve Fretzin: And how does it getting, how is it getting them to do that?

[00:28:56] Travis Hoechlin: Um, it would, it would blow, it would blow your mind how many times I I’m prepping for a call and, and I do this for a living, right? I read the websites, you know, get prepared for a call and no questions asked. And it takes me 10, 15 minutes to figure out what they do.

[00:29:10] Travis Hoechlin: You know, are they, are they defense or fight it? Are they, what kind of law do they practice? Like. Make it easy for folks, like, you know, give them green light, make your phone number, make it easy for them to call you that most people aren’t reading a website, like they do a book from top to bottom, left to right, and all the pages until the, until the end, they’re skimming.

[00:29:30] Travis Hoechlin: So make it make, make, have some, um, call outs or, um, phone numbers, form fills, things, a way to contact you, make it very, very easy for them and have your address and your website. Like you would be surprised how many times. People are trying to be mysterious or clever. And it’s like, they just want to pick up the phone and call you or drive you off.

[00:29:50] Travis Hoechlin: Let them do that.

[00:29:51] Steve Fretzin: I don’t do that. I mean, that is the most frustrating thing I, for me, it’s, it’s, I can’t find their email anywhere. And I searched them online. I searched their name. I searched their practice area. And I just cannot for the life of me, get an email for this person. And I guess they’re trying, they’re trying to keep it secret because they don’t want to be emailed by people, but it’s, I’m trying to send them work or I’m trying to connect with them about being on my show or whatever it is.

[00:30:13] Steve Fretzin: But anyway, it’s a crazy world, Travis, awesome stuff, man. Let’s get into your game changing podcast. It’s called how I built this.

[00:30:22] Travis Hoechlin: Yeah, that’s it for, obviously for the entrepreneurs out there, which it sounds like it’s the majority of your audience. That’s, I always get a kick out of listening to something like this, where you hear that, how they did it, built it from nothing and built it up and Guy Raz does a phenomenal job of, you know, interviewing all kinds of entrepreneurs from all different walks of life.

[00:30:45] Travis Hoechlin: And it’s, uh, it’s something that I’m, I always have going on in the car. It’s super interesting. I think they do a

[00:30:51] Steve Fretzin: phenomenal job. Yeah. And as we, uh, as we wrap up, I want to thank our sponsors, of course, Green Cardigan Marketing, Get Staffed Up, and Lawmatics, all great friends of the show. I use all of their services.

[00:31:02] Steve Fretzin: They’re fantastic. And, um, also I want to just mention everybody, um, my bestselling book, Legal Business Development, Is It Rocket Science? is now on Audible. There’s, you now have an audio version. If you want a free Audio version of that from me. You just have to email me at Steve at Brettson. com. And I will send you that like a passcode or whatever to get a free version of it.

[00:31:25] Steve Fretzin: If you’re already on audible, then you could just upload it, but it’s. Four and a half hours of, of a lot of this type of stuff, a lot of marketing, networking, great information. And I know you’re going to love it. If you listen, it’s not my voice. It’s a, it’s a woman’s voice, but I think that’s probably a little more pleasant than, than my raspy voice.

[00:31:42] Steve Fretzin: So, uh, Travis, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to learn more about rise up and, uh, talk to you about your services. What, what are the best ways for them to find you? Uh,

[00:31:51] Travis Hoechlin: easiest way, I’ll give you my cell phone, 714 261 0185. Once again, 714 261 0185. Feel free to call me directly. My, my, uh, My email is Travis at riseupmedia.

[00:32:04] Travis Hoechlin: com. Uh, rises with a Z we don’t know how to spell obviously over here at rise up, but, uh, yeah, yeah, or go to our website at riseupmedia. com. Uh, there’s some, there’s a form filled there and, uh, any of those ways, uh, more than happy to chat with you and help you however we can.

[00:32:21] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, well, it sounds like you, you have a world of knowledge at your, at your, uh, at your, uh, fingertips and would highly recommend people talk to Travis if they want to know where they are, you know, where they are, where they’re going, where they need to be.

[00:32:33] Steve Fretzin: So thanks again, man. Thanks for being on the show and, and, and sharing your wisdom and, and helping everybody understand, you know, the secrets to, to successful legal marketing. I really appreciate it. I

[00:32:42] Travis Hoechlin: appreciate you having me. Thanks, Steve.

[00:32:44] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And thank you everybody for spending time with Travis and I today.

[00:32:46] Steve Fretzin: Hopefully you got a couple of good takeaways. I got my usual page of notes. And, uh, the three secrets and all that. And, uh, you know, again, just, just keep doing what you’re doing. You gotta, you gotta become a student of marketing, a student of business development, be that entrepreneur. Uh, even if you’re at a firm, uh, it’s all about you Inc and, and how you develop your book of business and, and work with your own clients.

[00:33:07] Steve Fretzin: So, uh, anything I can do, you always know you can, you can get a 30 minute, um, engagement with me just by emailing me or going to my website. But, um, you know, look, we’ll help you be that lawyer. Someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. And we will talk again very soon.

[00:33:28] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s Today’s show notes.