In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jack Zinda discuss:
- Maintaining cash flow while building a practice.
- Building a thriving practice in a tough area.
- Planning, coaching, and continuous learning.
- Tips for growing a sustainable practice.
- You do not have to do only one thing to bring in work. Find a couple of options that work for you and make time to do both.
- Take the time to invest in your business skills. There are many out there who have done what you want to do – learn from their roadmap.
- Coaching allows you to learn, not just from the coach, but also from all the experience they’ve had working with other people.
- Know what it is that you want and have a clear, direct plan for getting there.
“A lot of people don’t think of business development as a repeatable process. They think of it as luck or making friends, but, it’s actually about being intentional with the actions that will lead to the outcomes that you want.” — Jack Zinda
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
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Jack Zinda, Narrator, Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff
Jack Zinda [00:00]
The first thing that I decided was I wanted to be a great lawyer, and I wanted to be a great entrepreneur. Okay. And so I think a lot of times attorneys don’t take the time to invest in developing their business skills.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:41]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you are having a lovely day today. As the announcer mentioned, I’m Steve Fretzin. I run Fretzin Inc. And we are a business all about helping lawyers to be their best selves to be that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker, and listen, there’s opportunities, every single show to get takeaways that are going to benefit you and your law, practice. Whether you’re in a big firm, you’re a solo, you’re an IP, you’re in personal injury doesn’t matter. We want to make sure that you’re getting the goods on this show every single week. And today is no different. I’ve got an amazing guest Jack, who’s waiting in the wings. What’s up, Jack?
Jack Zinda [01:17]
Hey, good to see you.
Steve Fretzin [01:18]
Good to see you too. Shout out to Austin, Texas, all my friends in Austin, Texas. Before we get into the weeds, we are going to take a moment to thank those beautiful, lovely, wonderful sponsors. And we’ve got legalese marketing, you know, helping with the newsletters, and the social and all the marketing stuff that you don’t want to deal with. We’ve got Moneypenny doing the live virtual reception and live chat on the websites. And of course, practice Panther who is rockin it out in the practice management world helping lawyers to be more efficient every single day. And you’re going to hear more about all three of those later. Don’t skip through those ads, listen to them. They they’re always changing and new and interesting. And Jackie, were so kind to give me a quote. And this is one that everyone will remember if their movie buffs, failure is not an option Jackson to welcome to the show.
Jack Zinda [02:06]
Well, thanks, Steve. Appreciate it. Glad to be here. I’ve been wanting to be on the show a long time.
Steve Fretzin [02:09]
All right, awesome, man. I appreciate that. And why is that quote that you wanted to meet up add to the quote of the show?
Jack Zinda [02:16]
You know, I’ve really used that philosophy for how I’ve run my practice and how I attack cases, I think a lot of people come at problems and say, there may not be a solution, or there may not be an answer. And I really try to go over the problem under the problem through the wall, whatever it takes to solve the problem. So we really tried to instill that with our lawyers, and also with the way we like to run our business.
Steve Fretzin [02:42]
So it’s all about moving stuff forward and just creatively solving stuff. And don’t you know, kind of like, don’t let failure stop, you’re slowing down. Just move through it.
Jack Zinda [02:50]
Yeah, and obviously don’t turn a speed bump into a brick wall, right. So a lot of people I think, take a speed bump, and they say, Okay, this isn’t a solvable problem. So let’s just give up and go a different direction.
Steve Fretzin [03:01]
Yeah. And everybody Jack is the CEO and a trial lawyer at Zinda Law Group, which is a national firm, and give a little bit of your background because you you didn’t start off where you are. I mean, you’re you’re at a whole nother level than where many law firms are. But give us a little bit of background on how you came to me.
Jack Zinda [03:19]
Yeah, well, so going way back in time to the 80s. I was born in Longview, Texas. My dad owned a restaurant. And at the restaurant, I got to do all of the terrible stuff he didn’t want his minimum wage employees to do I got to clean behind the grill. Yeah, later coming on Sundays to clean the parking lot. And it was an old dairy queen that he converted to a bar. He originally wanted to be a restaurant, but he was the only person in town with a liquor license. So it just was gangbusters. And we’d have a lot around the block. We were protested by some of the religious groups on you know, Sundays and all those same people came to the bars on Friday. Wow, you should
Steve Fretzin [04:05]
have dairy. You said Dairy Queen and the bar they shouldn’t have got you should have had them together. I would have I would have showed up for that. That’s a great idea. That’s like I didn’t even know it. I’m an ideas, man, you see.
Jack Zinda [04:18]
And so that’s kind of where I got my entrepreneurial spirit was like watching him own his own business, and doing those sorts of things. And fast forward to law school. I went to law school in Waco, Texas at Baylor, and not knowing what I wanted to do. I started law school two days after I graduated from college I was I started in what’s called their summer semester. So I sprinted right into that. I had a girlfriend at the time now my wife, and at the end of my first year, she was still back in Georgetown, Texas, near Austin, which is a small suburb of Austin. And I had these great clerkship opportunities in Houston and East Texas. And I said, You know what, forget those. I’ll just come to Austin to get a job. Got to be closer to my girlfriend. Well, I didn’t know that that is the toughest job market on the planet for lawyers. There’s more lawyers per capita there than anywhere else. But really see,
Steve Fretzin [05:10]
yeah, I didn’t know that. That’s insane. Okay, I thought there were a lot. I thought there are a lot in the lupus Chicago sounds like you guys get their cover.
Jack Zinda [05:17]
There might be it’s because you’ve got ut graduates, 400 attorneys a year, you’ve got a huge lobbying infrastructure. And so a lot of people graduated from UT say, I don’t want to leave Boston. It’s great. Yeah. And I found myself waiting tables during what’s supposed to be your premier clerkship summer, trying to get a job at a law firm, I must have applied to 150 different law firms. I’m not even kidding. And I finally found somebody that had gone to the same college, I did the same law school and about 10 years older than I was. And they got me hooked up with a small practitioner in Round Rock, Texas, that offered me a quote clerkship. He said, How much do you want? I said, I work for free. It’s like, how about eight bucks an hour. So I worked for this gentleman over the summer. And he had a handful of personal injury cases. And he did some family loss in business law and PII. And I found I really loved the clients. I loved the work because I didn’t have to Bill. It was a lot of gamesmanship and a lot, I get to be in the courtroom a lot. And he offered me a job to come on and start his PR practice out of law school, which is kind of crazy looking back at it, that he kind of gave me that level of responsibility. But he didn’t have any cases either. So it was kind of one of those that and it was all ie what you kill was my pay at the time. So I worked with him for a couple years got really lucky on some large cases. And after that decided it made sense to go out on my own about a year and a half into my law career.
Steve Fretzin [06:53]
Okay, got it. Got it. Well, it’s sometimes when you get paid less, and you get more like time and experience practicing, right. I mean, my father was on my 200th show, and everybody’s sick to hearing about it at this point. But, you know, he was making $10 a day working as a lawyer back in the 60s and whatnot. And but he said he got more trial experience in like his first two years than most lawyers would in their entire career. So he, he felt that even though he was totally underpaid, had to live at home with grandma, grandpa, my grandma, grandpa, like he like totally made it big as far as like experience.
Jack Zinda [07:27]
I totally agree. It was invaluable. I was my own paralegals. So I learned their role I was, you know, all of the client contact. I also because of the small practice, I got put in charge of marketing of HR. So it really was a great way to learn on someone else’s dime, even though it wasn’t paid well. So it was almost like my own MBA for a lawyer. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [07:49]
So then when you went out on your own what was like the next like, oh, now I’m on my own, I gotta figure this out. What was that like?
Jack Zinda [07:55]
So the first thing you know, so my practice, I’m a personal injury lawyer, I handle trucking cases, wrongful death cases in in that practice area, you don’t get paid unless you win, right? So cash is always critical. So we had an hourly practice. And that was the first hurdle was like, how do we maintain cash flow? While we build up the practice, because I didn’t have very many cases. And it can take, you know, between a few months to a few years to resolve a personal injury case. And the bigger the case, typically, the longer it may take. So that was the first big hurdles, like how do you overcome this speed bump of that? Well, at the same time getting cases in an extremely competitive marketplace, API is one of the most competitive areas to market in the whole ecosystem, let alone just law. Yeah. So you know, one of the things that we decided or decided was to put my practice intentionally in a very conservative County, Williamson County at the time was one of the last places you want it to be as a plaintiff’s lawyer. Because the juries were supposedly not great at handing out awards to clients that were injured. But that meant there weren’t any personal injury lawyers in that county. So I intentionally didn’t go to Austin, I went to there. And I got really involved in the bar in the community and I became the go to lawyer for all those attorneys there and you kind of need to be from the county to get cases from people in the county, they kind of looked at your there an Austin lawyer or your, you know, Round Rock lawyer, that was the main town and we’ve seen County, and they didn’t like each other very much. So I kind of got to be the big fish in a small pond. And that’s how I was able to get cases and more quickly.
Steve Fretzin [09:32]
So was it a lot about developing relationships with the other lawyers in the courtroom and really developing out, you know, the referral sources that way?
Jack Zinda [09:41]
There I took two approaches. One was building referrals. And I made a rule I was going to go to at least two lunches a week with a different person in Williamson County. Okay. And I did that for about a year consistently. And I built up a lot of relationships where I was getting one to two referrals a month from that Some work. And the other was trying to build up a digital presence, which wasn’t very popular at the time to get cases from outside websites to kind of go into dual approaches there.
Steve Fretzin [10:11]
Okay? And what was the breakthrough moment or year when things really clicked and you you really kind of like brought in the bacon and realized, wow, I’ve got this, you know, this business now that I can really count on?
Jack Zinda [10:26]
What is what is today’s date?
Steve Fretzin [10:28]
Still not there yet.
Jack Zinda [10:30]
You know, it’s funny, I remember as a lawyer, that I thought I remember the moment it was like my sixth year, and I was like, I am really, I felt like in my head, like I was a good lawyer now, like, I get it, I can handle any case, I feel confident. As far as the business goes, it was probably, you know, year three, year four, to why I felt like, Okay, I have a consistent income stream that I see continuing to go up, I’m not stressed month to month about, you know, we’re going to have enough cash on hand, and was feeling really good about the momentum. And a lot of it comes down to in a pie case, you need enough of a docket, so it’s constantly turning over. So if you have 10 cases, and one gets appealed, all of a sudden, that case is going to take much longer. If you have 100 cases and three lawyers now all of a sudden, there’s always ones turning over, and it makes it a lot less stressful.
Steve Fretzin [11:22]
Got it? Got it. So every lawyer, you know, there’s there’s a solo, and then I’ve got some employees, and I’m building on that. And then, you know, I look at your website, and I see you’ve got I don’t know, is it 25? How many lawyers do you have? Now?
Jack Zinda [11:37]
We have a 32 lawyers, but that includes a bunch of lawyers that are pending bar results. So fingers crossed, okay.
Steve Fretzin [11:43]
Okay. All right, I’m in the ballpark. But I mean, in the book, that that’s something that some boy, many lawyers, you know, the lawyers that I even talked to work with on a regular basis. They can’t imagine starting as a solo and building out to having a firm that not only has that many lawyers, but also that is more national in scope. So talk to that, because I think some people want would love to hear how you had the gumption to develop it out and build out to that degree.
Jack Zinda [12:12]
Well, the first thing that I decided was, I wanted to be a great lawyer. And I wanted to be a great entrepreneur. Okay. And so I think a lot of times attorneys don’t take the time to invest in developing their business skills. So I think the first thing that I did was decide what I wanted to be when I grow up, like what was it that I was shooting for? And the second was, who else has followed that path? Both outside the law, and inside the law, and what are the roadmaps I can use to follow. And so a great book, I read the E Myth. And it just really changed my way of thinking about the business. You know, one of the processes it tells you to do is build out an org chart when you’re at your ideal size. So that was one of the first things I did you know, we had four people, but I wanted to get to a company you know, of 100. Okay, what are all the hats that people have to wear. And in the beginning, I’m filled receipt, in that org chart. But then as we grow, what is the next seat that I want to fill that’s not filled by me, and trying to continue to hone those business skills in those management skills.
Steve Fretzin [13:23]
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Jordan Ostroff [14:00]
legalese marketing is not your traditional marketing vendor. Instead, we’re a true fractional cmo that helps you save time and spend your money the right way to build a practice of your dreams. We help through the entire process from customizing your intake system to driving leads, and even getting more reviews afterwards, schedule your free call at legalese marketing.com.
Steve Fretzin [14:23]
Hey staff tell everyone what Moneypenny does for law firms
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [14:26]
where the call handling and live chat experts and Moneypenny receptionist can ensure that your calls are directed to the right person seamlessly saving you time and money. Steve, did you know that 69% of people don’t like to leave a voicemail.
Steve Fretzin [14:40]
I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [14:47]
We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846. I mentioned that you’ve heard this ad on Steve’s podcast just very cool,
Steve Fretzin [15:01]
thanks. Okay, so investing in books, investing in coaching and most what, what was the things that you had to go through to learn these business skills that they didn’t teach in law school?
Jack Zinda [15:13]
I think coaching is incredibly helpful. I think that a lot of people don’t invest enough in coaching, to help hone their skills, both for accountability, and also to take someone else’s experiences to stack on your own because a coach is going to have heard from multiple multiple people. So I’ve had an executive coach, and a coach that helps on the legal side as well like how to practice law how to try cases for about six years. And that’s been immensely beneficial. The other thing is, I listened to a lot of audiobooks. And so I will listen to an audio book one or two a month, at least, and I’ll read listen to some now read them, again, ones that really catch my attention. And keeping that going, keeps the ideas in my head of what I need to do to build my business. And I also think it’s really critical to have a plan.
Steve Fretzin [16:02]
Yeah, I would say that’s, that’s, you know, top of the list too, I mean, the first thing that I do with any client that I have is a identify gaps be look at what the low hanging fruit is, and then craft a plan around it so that they’re not wasting their time. And if again, if you don’t have a plan, it’s like, you have no way of measuring it, you have no way of managing it, you have no direction. You’re just out there doing kind of the best you can, which isn’t a great plan. That’s like winging it as a strategy. 100% agree.
Jack Zinda [16:29]
I mean, I think having a plan and then also being prepared to modify it when when things change. Yeah. So that’s been really beneficial. I think that I’ve gotten lucky and hired some really great people that have helped me grow. I think that we put a lot of investment into technology. You know, I think we’re one of the few law firms that has their own software development team. And that’s been like having a superpower to allow us to put things together that help us both practice law and run the practice.
Steve Fretzin [17:01]
Okay, so someone’s listening to this and going, okay, I get business, I get law. Now you’re throwing software into the mix, that you’re developing software? What is that? Like? What is that all about? Like? How did you decide that there was software needed to help you continue to develop and grow and add and get ahead of the competition, and don’t give away any secrets? Give away the secret sauce.
Jack Zinda [17:24]
So while at the same year, I started the law firm, because I wasn’t busy enough, you know, having kids and a wife
Steve Fretzin [17:31]
plenty of time,
Jack Zinda [17:32]
I’m gonna start another company with my best friend who I played college basketball with. And it was a software as a service company. And it’s kind of his classic business story, we built the website, but we had a business concept. And we’re like, oh, that concept won’t work. So destroy the website, like we should probably work on the business first. And through that, I just learned a ton about software, like how it’s built, how it works, I can’t code to save my life. But I know, like, who can code and how people, you know, get people to code for them. And so through that, we had a need for both practice management software, and also for like, kind of the hub for our practice. And it originally started off as having different software programs talk to each other, it’s kind of at the center. And then over time, we had a big decision to make, do we go buy a software program to run our practice, which are very expensive. And frankly, I’m sure there’s some good ones out there, but there’s a lot of bad ones. And we made this as a hey, let’s build something for ourselves. Because we do a lot of interesting things. Like we have a whole fault of our depositions that we OCR so we can like search for different witnesses, we do analytics, like how long does it take for a case to to go from sign up to trial? How many depositions is it normally take, which people don’t just create software for that. So it’s been really cool. And as we come up with new ideas, we just tell the software team, hey, add this, and then the next month, it’s there and we’re able to use it.
Steve Fretzin [18:58]
That’s really cool. That’s really cool. And then does that help that with with expanding out? You’ve got how many offices? Like five or six offices?
Jack Zinda [19:06]
Yeah, we were in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado. And each state has a hub and then some satellite offices around those hubs. Okay, well, we have five main locations that we’re working on at the time.
Steve Fretzin [19:19]
Okay. And so you’re managing all of that. And then they have these individual offices that are using the software and using, I’m assuming, are you are you doing some lead generation online and things like that as well?
Jack Zinda [19:29]
Yeah, so we do marketing online. And then we use the same approach on referrals. And every lawyer is required to go to a certain number of networking events, after six months to generate their own looks. And so that in combination community development, we start sending the flywheel effect of building more and more cases in the areas we go out to. Okay.
Steve Fretzin [19:51]
Well, I think what I like is that you’re saying, look, there’s technology that we use for lead generation and that we use for practice management, but then we also want to have the Business Development, the networking piece, and I just wrote an article, it’s going to be published in the in the law bulletin in Chicago here in September. But I’m ahead of that I just I get ahead of stuff, which is fine. But talking about two sides of a mountain on one side, you’ve got marketing. On the other side, you’ve got business development, they’re not the same, but they meet at the peak, if you do them both, well, they meet at the peak. And when they do, that’s when all the good stuff happens, because you’ve got your brand and in place, you’ve got your activities and relationships in place. And they kind of meet up up there. And I feel like I’m there. I don’t know. And I tried to get my clients there. But that’s like, for me, it’s like the most wonderful place to be because everything is working sort of on all cylinders.
Jack Zinda [20:39]
No, I completely agree. And, you know, a lot of people don’t think of business development as a repeatable process, like they kind of think of as luck or I made friends, but, you know, trying to be intentional about the actions that will lead to the outcome that you want. Yeah, I
Steve Fretzin [20:54]
mean, it’s absolutely a process. I don’t think I would be in business if it wasn’t a process. So, you know, that’s, that’s what I do every day. So people come in they, you know, they’re networking a certain way. And maybe the results are good. Maybe the results are not good, middle ground. But we analyze and we figure out, Is there is there a more sophisticated and more sort of friendly, relationship driven way to do it? And there usually is, and we want to put people on process for sure. So let me let me just like put it into perspective, you’ve got all this this growth that you’ve seen in the last number of years expanding out using technology growing, you’re growing out locations, ultimately, your goal is to get to 100 Is that the kind of the benchmark of where you want to be.
Jack Zinda [21:36]
So our ultimate goal is to get to a place where we’re one of the top 10 plaintiffs law firms in the country. That’s kind of the big, our big, hairy, audacious goal. And it’s not necessarily based on headcount, it’s based on revenue targets, then, based on the level of cases we’re handling, like, every year, we’re handling larger and larger cases. You know, a few years ago, we might have a seven figure case, like once a year now there’s, you know, several month, okay, so trying to build up a reputation for being known as that around the country. And right now we’re focusing on the Southwest US. And then after that, the hope is to expand out to the West Coast, and move from there.
Steve Fretzin [22:15]
Okay. Beautiful, beautiful, last kind of question I have for you. This is more maybe a multiple answer type question. But if you had like, to tips that you could say, hey, you know, lawyers that are looking to develop and grow and get to where I am, or get, you know, just the next level of, of marketing, business development growth, you know, just a really sustainable practice. What are like the two like tips that you would give to any lawyer that’s out there that isn’t quite hitting the mark?
Jack Zinda [22:45]
I mean, I think first would be setting your goals and being specific about those. So many people don’t get lost, because they don’t know where they’re going. Yeah, so I think the first is like, where do I want to be in picture yourself 10 years from now, not just how much money you want to make, what do I want to be doing every day? I’ve got some friends that are one person shops that make a ton of money are immensely successful. And you know, when I tell them, the people we have that makes them want to, you know, go through stuff like, myself and my paralegal, right? Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [23:16]
And that’s a lot of it’s a lot of responsibility, man, you got to cover some payroll.
Jack Zinda [23:21]
Exactly. So I think first knowing what is you want and having a clear direct plan. The second I would say is, invest in yourself, in running your firm outside of just the practice of law, like you got to devote, if you’re going to own your own practice, you got to be willing to devote a percentage of your time to improving your business skills, just like you would, you wouldn’t stop reading case law, right? If you’re going to own your practice, you got to be willing to do that, or you should go work for someone else. Because you won’t get to where you want to, if you don’t think about those things.
Steve Fretzin [23:52]
Yeah, and I’ll add to the last thing, I mean, there’s a lot of attorneys listening that are at, you know, mid market and large firms and they’re, well I don’t have to, you know, do this because, you know, I’m not a solo I don’t have to scrape and claw to get business and, you know, then they get let go or their hours get shot down or something happens because they never built the book that gave them the control and freedom that they needed and they didn’t invest in them. So I just posted some on LinkedIn about about people that you know, are too slow to to make a move to invest. And I’m not saying Invest in me like invest in books invest in you know, in other coaches invest in whatever is going to help you get ahead. But to figure it out yourself these days, that’s a lot of time it’s a lot of time and a lot of potential, you know, failures and hard times when it doesn’t have to be that way.
Jack Zinda [24:35]
I completely agree. And I always we tell this to all of our new attorneys like hey, you know, if you generate the business you have all of the leverage right so like yeah, that’s the really the Gold Key and a lot of attorneys unfortunate like you said don’t see that right. If you’re just a worker bee and you’re not generating business you then you have to be just like a superstar, whatever your practice area is, or you can unfortunately become expendable if you’re, if the firm’s business goes down, and you want to be the last person off the boat if that’s the case,
Steve Fretzin [25:07]
right, right. And a lot of attorneys say, you know, anybody could do what I do. I mean, every attorney is different. Everybody’s got different skills and different. You know that if you’re some kind of specialists that no one else can do what you do fine. But for us humans, right, we’ve got to, you know, we’ve got to make sure that we’ve got the legal skills down to your point, you were a great lawyer. Now let’s become a great business person. And let’s slap them together and see what happens. Part of that I think might be I love your game changing book, we kind of discussed it before we went on on air but traction man, Gino, the man, the legend.
Jack Zinda [25:40]
That’s a great book, I got so much out of that. I loved it, because it really simplifies how to run your business. Yeah. And I recommend that any attorney that has their own firm read that book, it’s an easy read. It takes a lot of complicated topics, and really simplifies it and pulls a lot of ideas together in a really succinct way and gives you a way to actually execute not just ideas.
Steve Fretzin [26:00]
And I’ll tell you one other thing that it does is it proves that when an individual or company like Gino and traction can be generous with what they give away, the documents and the different things that they give away, that it doesn’t really hurt the business that you can give things away. And you’re not giving away all your secrets, you’re giving away things that are valuable. But ultimately, people are going to want to come back for the real deal. They’re going to want to work with Eos, or they’re going to want to work with Gino and hire not just, you know, not just steal, steal their stuff. But I just think it’s I just think they have some of the best content that’s been put out about how to how to run us, especially a small business how to run a small business.
Jack Zinda [26:41]
I completely agree. That’s I mean, that’s been our approach to getting referrals is we have a very generous, you know, outreach and giving, if an attorney needs something, we’ll give it to them if they’re on the right side of the V. And for example, we’re doing a free CLE in October for people that want to practice Gala, and it’s not going to be kind of just refer us business can be actual practical tips. And the idea is by giving back, we’ll get something back either in a case or a reputation. But the more you give, the more you
Steve Fretzin [27:10]
get. Yeah. Well, that’s where we’re going to wrap things up. Jack, thanks so much for being on the show. And if people want to get in touch with you, what’s the best way to reach out if they want to come work for you? And they say I like the way this guy thinks. Once they reach you. Yeah,
Jack Zinda [27:24]
they can go to our website, zd, firm.com z’s in Zebra DS and dog frm.com. Or you can reach me my email at Jack at Zinda law.com. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [27:34]
really good stuff, man. Well, this was a pleasure. I really enjoyed our initial conversation. I enjoyed this podcast together. I think you’re really killing it. And you know, and, you know, not necessarily the easiest time in the world to be a business owner, right. I mean, there’s a lot of moving parts.
Jack Zinda [27:48]
I appreciate that man. And I love the podcast, keep up the good work, and it’s been awesome. Really enjoyed it.
Steve Fretzin [27:53]
Now we’re fighting the good fight here, right? You gotta have attorneys one at a time. But hey, everybody, thank you for spending time with Jack and I today. Again, you know, listen, no joking around. There’s opportunities to grow and learn and improve what you’re doing to become that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized a skilled Rainmaker. You just have to listen. You have to think about investing in yourself. You have to, you know, pick up the books that we’re sharing on the show and listen to podcasts like mine and others. And there’s a ton of them that are really super helpful. John Jacques, you’ve got a podcast, right?
Jack Zinda [28:27]
I do. Yeah, I’ve got a podcast called the effective lawyer. So we just kicked it off last year. And we talked about things involving the intersection of business or law, stuff affecting plaintiff’s lawyers and just about anything in between.
Steve Fretzin [28:41]
Yeah, very cool, man. Well, let’s listen. Jack’s got it going on everybody. Thanks again, man. And we’ll thank you, everybody. We’ll talk again soon. I really appreciate you spending some time with us today.
Jack Zinda [28:50]
Appreciate it. Thanks, Steve.
Steve Fretzin [28:51]
You got it, buddy. Take care.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes