In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Carrie Smith Trabue discuss:
- Standing out by being different.
- Carrie’s transition from practicing law to legal recruiting.
- What sales actually is (and it’s not a dirty word).
- Things lawyers need to do to protect themselves in a downturn.
- Building a book of business gives you more freedom in your career, both at your current firm and for wherever your career path takes you.
- You are selling all day long without even realizing it. It’s about relationship building.
- As a lawyer, the biggest job security you can have is to have a book of business. That’s the only way to be 100% bulletproof.
- You have to advocate for yourself and develop relationships with other people.
“With emotional hooks, it’s about showing your face…participating in things, inviting other inviting partners or people within the firm to lunches or coffees, and it’s about being likeable. Taking the time to actually develop those relationships is important for you, and it’s actually a great investment in where you work.” — Carrie Smith Trabue
Connect with Carrie Smith Trabue:
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lawyers, firm, people, client, hooks, relationships, business, book, helping, work, job, practice, carrie, law school, reached, important, bonds, origination, partners, replaceable
Carrie Smith-Trabue, Narrator, Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff
Carrie Smith-Trabue [00:00]
with emotional hooks, what I mean by that is and this is going to be hard for some of the real junior lawyers who don’t even go into the office is to start by coming into the office. It’s about showing your face, and if some that you want to create emotional bonds
you’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer Coach Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:42]
Hey everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a wonderful day today. As the announcer mentioned I’m Steve Fretzin, the host and look we’re well over 200 episodes now this show seems to be cooking along my job and my goal is to continue to bring you the best information the best guests the best resources for building your law practice and being that lawyer someone who’s competent, organized and a skilled Rainmaker. Today is no different. I’ve got a phenomenal guest waiting in the wings. Carrie, how you doing?
I’m doing great. Thank you so much for having me excited to be here.
Steve Fretzin [01:15]
Yeah, good to see you. And before we get into the weeds with you obviously have to thank those sponsors. We love our legalese marketing, helping lawyers with their marketing efforts. We’ve got money Penny doing the receptionist if you don’t want to pay for a full receptionist, you can do it virtually it’s probably better for some people. And then of course practice Panther helping you with your practice management and making sure that your automation is in place so that you can again, you know, try to save time and money and efforts that way. So I’ve got a great quote from a great quote, let me try to speak enunciate properly from carry. In order to be irreplaceable, one must always be different. That’s a Coco Chanel. So Carrie, why did you submit that quote, as is your favorite quote?
Well, we all went to law school to buy Chanel. Right. And the only reason the only reason? Well, I, it’s interesting, I have learned that that is the truth. I think that, you know, growing up, particularly for women, we were always taught to fit in. And so we spent a good part of her life trying to fit in our family trying to fit in our, you know, sorority or fraternity trying to fit in, or whatever group it is, we’re always trying to fit in. And the thing about fitting in is that means you’re being like someone else, you’re being similar to them. And the way to be irreplaceable, is to be different. It’s the people that if you think about who we gravitate to, whether it’s on social media, or in our interactions with others, it’s the people who are different. And so while we’re so busy fitting in, we’re actually defeating the very thing that we’re admiring. And that is being different standing out.
Steve Fretzin [03:01]
Yeah, I love that. And again, you know, you’ve got 100 attorneys in a room that all Do you know, one thing, address the line with a dress like that they’re doing the same work like they’re, they’re, they’re totally replaceable. And then you’ve got someone that’s in we’re going to talk about, like, what are things lawyers, you know, will and should be doing to be irreplaceable and to be different. I also love the word and now this is maybe overplayed, but you know, authentic? I think people are today looking more and more for someone who can really be authentic in their marketing authentic in their approach to dealing with with clients in internally. Absolutely, yeah. So Carrie Smith TradeView is the founder and president of Carrington legal search. And I want to welcome you to the show again, and I’d love to have you share your background of because I don’t think you started out as a recruiter Correct. You started?
I did, yeah. Okay. I went to Tulane Law School and University of Texas at Austin undergrad. And I graduated from law school in 1993, which was one of the worst years ever. I mean, it was right in the middle of the savings and loan crisis that for those of us who are of that era, and so there were very few jobs. And so I’ve started out I mean, first of all, I’d love to share a story of getting a clerkship during law school. I think this is really helpful to people and that is, when I was looking for a clerkship heavy people I was top 20% My first year, but I was not lowering you. And so because there were so few jobs and Sophie clerkships, everybody and this is before the advent of email. It’s kind of embarrassing to admit this that, you know, this is how it used to be. But all of my class mates were employing these resume services that were sending resumes to all the top 200 firms and doing the exact same thing, trying to achieve the same result. But it was very ineffective these top 200 firms are getting dumps of resumes, and how are these people differentiating themselves? And I looked at that, and I was like, I’m watching these people, but better grades than I do, who are maybe more accomplished in other areas who aren’t getting jobs? What am I going to do? Somebody who’s not Laurie you? And so what I did is I kind of sat back, and as I like to say, obstacles or adversity, birth, innovation and creativity. And so I took a look at my life and said, where are the jobs maybe that other people aren’t seeing. And so I looked at the industry and what was hot at that moment, and also looked at what markets were growing. And one of the markets that was growing that nobody was hitting was Atlanta, because at the time was the fastest growing city in the United States. And so I looked at the firm’s there. And I identified a firm that had a really robust was a midsize firm, but it had a really successful insurance defense practice. And at the time, insurance defense was very highly paid was definitely a different place now. But so I reached out to one of the main partners identify someone we had in common. And in that letter, I said, No, here’s the person we have in common, you know, here’s why you should hire me because, you know, and I talked about his practice and how I would add to it. And he actually picked up the phone and called me got my letter. And I got a clerkship. And so here I was being different and trying something different and differentiating myself and standing out. And instead of my resume going into, you know, somebody’s wastebasket, the name partner picked up the phone and call me. And so I think that’s a real lesson. And it’s, it’s been a lesson for me the difference of being targeted in your approach, as opposed to using a shotgun approach. So telling somebody, what that connection is that exists between you, and how you can add value to them. And, you know, that is an important lesson. And they after graduating from law school, I kind of had a similar situation where there were no jobs. And so I and I had decided not to go to Atlanta, but instead to do the Austin, where I’d gone school. And that summer, there was only ever one job advertised. And it was for property tax litigation. Now, I went to law school to avoid doing anything related with math or, and so ending up doing property tax, I was like, but at least it’s litigation. So the partners at that firm told me they received over 300 resumes for that job. And the reason they pulled mine out of the pile is because the job openings said, associate property tax litigation slash client liaison, and of the 300 people who apply 250 did not mention the client liaison aspect of the job, they just did the same thing they did with everybody else, they just dumped the resume again. But I wrote a cover letter and said, you know, why they should hire me and explained, you know, all of that. And, you know, he reached back out and said, Well, you differentiate yourself and they get out because, you know, not only did you actually answer that correctly, but you’ve you’ve told us why, you know, why hire you. And there were a number of different hoops that I jumped through with them. But it really came down to again, constantly differentiating myself and standing out. And so I think again, that’s another lesson. And I think it’s something that’s guided me and helped me as far as advising candidates in my current role.
Steve Fretzin [08:45]
I mean, it’s definitely a theme that I feel we’re going to be getting into much deeper depths on as we go through this. But what was your transition then to leaving the law and deciding to go into legal recruiting?
Yeah. Well, so just kind of briefly, so when I was practicing law at this firm, I was, I went through some difficulties, I was being sexually harassed by one of the partners, there are my who isn’t a part of counsel, but an AI. So I reached out to a client and said, Hey, can I use you as a reference to change firms? And he said, Well, yeah, I’ll give you a reference. But wherever you go work out me. I was a second year lawyer at the time, and suddenly I had portable business. So I actually started my own firm. With two of the other associates, we actually left in the middle of the night and started our own law firm. Yeah, and so um, so in that process, I learned a lot, and that is that I was doing client development, and I actually was bringing in about 80 85% of the business. And I was doing about half the work, and we’ve struggled At our, our partnership as a third, a third, a third. And so that was really deceptive, advantageous, advantageous to myself. And I was contacted by a headhunter who said, hey, you know, would you be interested in changing firms? So that was my first interaction with the legal headhunting experience. And I ended up changing firms. And then I came to the realization that, you know, maybe practicing law really wasn’t my thing. I wasn’t using a lot of my client development and social skills that I really enjoyed. I was mostly, you know, grinding out briefs and things like that. So I did the What color’s your parachute and really examine, you know, what options I had. And then I started reaching out to different headhunters. We didn’t have that many legal headhunting shops in Austin at the time. So I reached out to national firms, and said, hey, you need to open an Austin office. At this time it was it was 1999. And so we were right about in the internet, boom. And so I was able to convince them that they needed to open an Austin office and started out by opening one for a
Steve Fretzin [11:09]
national firm. Okay. And then when did you then flip over to your own gig?
Steve Fretzin [11:17]
No, I’m not again, noticing a trend here. You’re really, you know, kind of self motivated to make positive moves for yourself kind of moving up the food chain? Yeah. Where you take your career?
Yeah. And what I learned and I, you know, there, you kind of have to do take them life lessons, or do repeat failures, right, like, so I learned really quickly that with this new recruiting firm, I immediately because I told all my clients and colleagues that I was going into headhunting. Within two weeks of starting, I hadn’t, I had a placement because I even walking in the door to that firm, I already knew that somebody was looking and I already had identified someone to match them left. So very, I mean, it was like a company record. And so I was making placements very quickly and realize that they were taking, you know, more than half of what I was bringing in and not providing me with the value that I should be receiving for giving that money away. And so it didn’t take me long to realize that what I lacked was self confidence. And obviously, I didn’t know I’d never done it before. But once I understood the business and understood how it worked. I didn’t even need to be working with anybody else, though.
Steve Fretzin [12:28]
Yeah. So in your in your experience, now, let’s say just over the last 20 years of kind of being your own boss and running this the, you know, being in the, in the, in the weeds in the legal industry, because I think that’s where recruiters are I mean, you guys know what’s going on beneath the surface. What sort of have you seen change in the last 20 years? Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse?
Yeah. Well, this is better and worse, I guess, which is really the business of the practice of law. On one hand, when I started in the business, it was very collegial and old school partnerships. And these bonds were things that you became a partner in a firm and you stay there. And so there was been a job movement didn’t happen that much. And it was really more about relationships. So as things have changed over the last 25 or 30 years, we’ve seen a shift from those more collegial law firm partnerships to the business of practice of law, which are these B myth, partnerships that are actually run by professional management, which is good and bad. I mean, you know, in some ways, the actual business of the practice of law can be a stumbling block for people. And it’s easier if you just want to practice law to go work for a firm, where that’s really all you’re doing. But it although I will say that, even if you’re working with a firm that’s professionally managed, you still have to be developing your own business, that’s always critical to your success.
Steve Fretzin [13:58]
But why does so few because again, that’s, you know, obviously my domain, why are so few lawyers, still not understanding that, like, how is it possible that lawyers and I’ll give you an example, I’ve got a friend of mine at a big firm, and he they’re just they’re letting me go at the end of the year. He doesn’t have a book of business, and he’s great lawyer, you know, and just boom, at the end of the year, you’re gone. That’s our that’s our new model. Like how does someone not recognize is it just that it’s not happening enough that people are getting let go because of the current state of affairs or our lawyers just just clueless about what building a book means to them in their in their future?
Yeah, it’s interesting. It kind of depends on a number of things. I mean, one thing is that some firms really discouraged associates from developing business which I think is a mistake. They really you know, that those business relationships are in the hands of the partners but then you know, when associate reaches a certain level, how do you make partner unless you have a book or business, so Right. Yeah, that’s one thing. And then the other is I think that, you know, it’s interesting if you read any studies or literature that like something like 95% of all lawyers are INTJ under that Myers Briggs. So they’re introvert, judgmental, thoughtful, and they tend to be not maybe the best at relationship building. And so the other aspect of that is that we lawyers go to law school thinking it’s more of this sort of like intellectual profession, not realizing we’re actually in sales. And that to me was a dirty word. Yes. And it’s interesting, because I had this epiphany, you know, even doing what I do, I was like, Well, I’m just providing a service, I’m not in sales. And it just, I read this book called to sell as human. And, and it’s by Daniel Pink, or Daniel Pink. Thank you. And what I love about that book is it demonstrates that everyone, even the most introverted person who doesn’t like selling, you’re selling everyday all day long, and you don’t even realize it. And so it takes away the bad rap, I think sale you think of sales. It’s really about relationship building. So and,
Steve Fretzin [16:29]
you know, obviously, we, you know, lawyers have to call it business development, or they have to call it marketing, which it’s not, primarily and just just to get it to get to get the words out, because sales is such a dirty word. And, by the way, like, the only real argument I ever won with my sister, who’s a therapist, was because she’s not in sales. She’s a therapist, and she helps me, but she’s selling them to not through drugs, she’s selling them to come back the next week, she’s selling them on her rage, she’s selling them. And I finally got her to admit it. And I was like, Oh, my God, I can’t believe it. Yeah, it finally happened. But, you know, there’s a reluctance because it’s seen as something dirty, when in reality, it’s not that different from law in the sense of solving a problem. What is sales, I’m solving a problem, you need a pencil, I have a pencil, you can buy my pencil, I just solved your problem. But we don’t, because we’ve been beat up by salespeople for so many years, that whether we’re buying a car or a house or getting a mortgage, that we’re just so sick of being sold, that that word has, over time become a terrible, terrible thing. It used to be incredibly noble and something that people would aspire to be not right. The opposite. So but we’re getting I think we’re getting back to I think Lori’s are figuring it out, I just don’t know that they have the courage all the time to, to set aside time and energy and effort to consider that building a book. This something they need to do, they know they need to do it, but they just would rather stick their head in, you know, in the computer and knock out
hours. You’re right. But I guess the other aspect of that is it really should be something that’s not time you set aside. It’s literally how you operate. And so it’s, it’s about demonstrating value. And once you demonstrate value, and you also wait, we’ll talk about this later create what I call emotional hooks, then all of a sudden, people are seeking you out. It’s not about you going out and like trying to knock somebody over the head to come do business with you, you become sought after. So it’s about establishing yourself as an expert and demonstrating that you add value. Those are some of the real important keys.
Steve Fretzin [18:45]
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Jordan Ostroff [19:22]
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Steve Fretzin [19:45]
Hey Steph, tell everyone what Moneypenny does for law firms.
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [19:48]
We have the call handling and live chat experts and Moneypenny receptionist can ensure that your calls are directed to the right person seamlessly saving you time and money. Steve did you know that 69 percent of people don’t like to leave a voicemail.
Steve Fretzin [20:02]
I did not know that that’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase, what are you prepared to do for my listeners?
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [20:09]
We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846. I mentioned that you’ve heard this ad on Steve’s podcast.
Steve Fretzin [20:22]
Very cool. Thanks. Look, you just segwayed it perfectly. So thinking about like three to five things that lawyers really need to do to protect themselves during an economic downturn to protect themselves from, you know, the horrors that may await them, they’re not even prepared for a whether that’s a solo, losing a major client that takes away half of the revenue, whether that’s a lawyer who thinks he’s bulletproof and affirm and then just out of nowhere gets a notice that, hey, you know, we’re cutting back on, you know, the 50 year old lawyer, that is we’re paying too much, right? We can bring in, bring in some young younger folks, for less? What are things that you tell your clients or that you recommend that they should do?
Yeah, well, as a lawyer, the biggest job security you can have is to have a book of business. I mean, that’s the only way to be 100% Bulletproof because that way, if your firm says, we don’t want your business, you still have your business. Yeah, you can become a solo or you can join another firm. So that is the number one basic way to be bulletproof. But if you are someone that you know, doesn’t have a book of business yet, or you’re in house, and so that’s just really not a way to make yourself bulletproof. I think it’s important to establish a couple of different things that we can kind of go through them, establish emotional hooks, professional hooks, political hooks, and client hooks. So with emotional hooks, what I mean by that is, and this is going to be hard for some of the real junior lawyer who don’t even go into the office is to start by coming into the office, it’s about showing your face. And if some that you want to create emotional bonds, so that’s participating in things inviting other inviting partners or, or other, you know, people within the firm to lunches or coffees, and it’s about being likeable. So it’s really about have somebody who’s going to decide who they’re going to let go, well, we love him, you know, he’s great, he participates, he shows up. So you’re going to not be at the top of the list to let go because there are emotional hooks or emotional bonds to think connected.
Steve Fretzin [22:39]
And the the word that I would use to describe everything you just said is relationships, you know, someone that has relationships that are deeper relationships is going to be much harder to remove, and someone who has a bunch of, you know, transactional relationships or, or just, you know, hey, the, you know, head nod in the hallway, right? That’s not That’s not what lawyers need, in order to be sticky. You know where they are.
Absolutely. And I think that the way you say it is really important, actually, because this is not about being and this is not about a manipulation. This is about how you show up. And if you’re somebody who’s out there looking to build relationships, and really establish those bonds, again, if we’re all today, it’s become so much more important, your authenticity. So in that way, it’s things like, when you’re talking about your kids, you establish, okay, our kids are the same ages, maybe we can do something away from work or, you know, whatever other bond there is based on what you learn about someone’s personal life outside of work. Those bonds really make you more sticky. And so taking the time to actually develop those relationships is important for you. And it’s actually a great investment in where you work. So you’re you’re really giving something back and volunteering for different committees and projects. Now as far as professional hooks, when I say that it’s about becoming essential, or critical to a project or to a practice area. So suddenly, if you’re, you’re the part of the deal or part of the project or part of the litigation team work to lose, you would be really upset the applecart. Suddenly, you’re again, you’re stiffening, right. So it’s gonna be harder to get rid of you because you are an essential part of the team. And then political hooks. What I mean by that is just understanding, for instance, kind of taking a step back and looking at the landscape of your firm and understanding that it is a political body. And as much as you don’t want to be political, kind of understanding what the politics are. And so making sure that you align yourself with the people who have the most, you know, strength in the firm or most full, and that you don’t align yourself with people who are toxic and likely didn’t shut out. So it’s really just kind of about pulling your head out and making sure that you invest in those relationships and and understand how you know, your activities might do. So it’s that’s just reality, right?
Steve Fretzin [25:08]
Yeah. But I think all of them play a role. And maybe you’re not going to do all three of them well, but you need to do all three of them. In order to make sure that you’re, again, you’re replaceable, or bulletproof where you are. And when you have a book, and you have relationships, and you know, you’ve got a good relationship with the manager of the practice area that you’re in, and they need you on deals, I mean, there’s all these moving parts. And if we’re not thinking intelligently about how to balance those, and how to make sure that that you’ve got your, you know, fingers in all those different bowls, that’s going to come back to haunt you.
Right, and if there’s some area of expertise, so you can have your overall like, m&a, but there’s one aspect of deals work, you’re always the one they bring in. Yeah, that’s the key, right. And then the last one is client. And that is go out of your way to develop client relationships. If the client loves you, they’re not going to get rid of you. And or
Steve Fretzin [26:07]
even if it’s not your origination, so I’m working with other lawyers with a client, get the box, even if it’s not by origination doesn’t matter salutely.
So you’re dealing with the client, and you’re talking about again, like kids, or, you know, where you guys went to the same college, so you guys, your that you’re the only two that have this special college relationship, whatever that is, you know, just, it’s about being authentic and learning more, don’t just be like, Oh, you’re my client, that’s where it ends. But looking beyond that, and developing that relationship, so and then not only that, if for some reason, they still have to let go of you, the client is may pick you up, or you may be able to take that work to another firm. Those are the ways to make yourself, essentially one and more bulletproof.
Steve Fretzin [26:54]
And I’m going to add something real quick to that, that most lawyers don’t know is a thing. But it’s a thing that’s happening maybe in the last couple of years more than in the past. If you have that client relationship, or if you have that speciality we’re lawyers have to or want to send you that work, but you’re not getting origination for it. I’m recommending to most of my clients now to ask for some level of origination on it or some management credit. Because what you’re doing when you’re being handed that work, is you’re giving up the ability to bring in your own clients or to do your own clients work when you’re being handed hours. So what I’m saying to them is, look, I’ve got a balance between this, if you’re going to hand me something that’s great, but I need to get some credit on that as well. Because otherwise I can’t take it and watch them jump through hoops to get you in that deal and give you origination credit, because a you’re replaceable, indispensable, and be because they recognize your value in that, in that in that you are sacrificing your own client origination and management for theirs. Right. That’s not something I think existed, right? Carry like years ago or is that that’s a pretty right.
That’s it’s it’s important to advocate for yourself and, you know, develop relationships where you have other people. So others were advocating for you like we don’t want to lose him. We don’t want him to go to another firm, because and we stand you know, maybe the risk losing a client. If we don’t give him the credit he deserves.
Steve Fretzin [28:22]
She is the is the big. So let me just kind of wrap this up in a little bow. I mean, the people that are doing the things that you’re talking about the different hooks that you brought up to make themselves irreplaceable. Has there been? I think there has been but I’d like to get your take on this. And then we’ll wrap things up with the game changing book has the power shifted it from it being solely the management having power to now attorneys having more power, because if they’ve done some of these hooks, then they’re they’re just in a better position that maybe in the past to control like, how the firm does things.
Or not? Well, it? Well, it depends on the firm. But the bottom line is if you are an A player, and you’re killing it as far as originations and find fluffy and whatnot, you can write your own ticket. Yeah, because if management doesn’t make you happy, they know you will both it’s become so commonplace. So you actually see management tripping over itself trying to keep their A players happy because they don’t want to lose them. Yeah. Okay.
Steve Fretzin [29:30]
Well at all, it all makes sense. My hope is that this conversation encourages attorneys that maybe aren’t putting themselves out there on those hooks or putting themselves out there on the business development front to take some initiative, whether that’s listening to more of these episodes, listening to other podcasts, books, mentors, coaches, whatever talking to Carrie I mean, you need to do something you can’t just Bell hours and expect that that’s going to that’s going to carry you for your career just that just not the way thing is a rolling anymore? That’s right. So, Carrie, your game changing book is the gift of fear. And I’m curious, you know, similar to your quote, why you know why you submitted that book? And what is that book all about? And what does it kind of mean to you?
Yeah, so the gift of fear is a book by Gavin de Becker. And he is somebody who is one of the foremost experts on predicting violence. And so he talks about the importance of intuition, and recognizing your intuition and listening to it. And I find that it’s incredibly value not just in predicting violence, but also in interacting with people and forming relationships. And in hiring, when I’m interviewing people being able to pick up on things and so I love that book, because not only does he kind of walk through how intuition shows up, and how to recognize it, but you also create some labels that kind of helped make the bridge from the subconscious to the conscious so that when you see something and you go, Hmm, that feels kind of not right. He’s he actually may have a label for it, where you go, Ah, that was bad. So yeah, very similar to your
Steve Fretzin [31:13]
hooks. You’ve got a label for these hooks, and he’s got a label for different intuitions that you might have about somebody that’s a little off putting or Exactly, yeah. Okay. That’s cool. That’s cool. I gotta check that out. So Carrie, thank you so much. If people want to get in touch with you to utilize your services, or just to learn more about about you know, your your recruiting firm, what’s the what, how do they reach you?
Yeah, so by recruiting firm website is Carrington. legal.com. Or you can always reach me at Carey at Carrington. legal.com. And of course, the my LinkedIn which is vendor carries Smith debuts. So here you
Steve Fretzin [31:51]
- There you go. Well, I appreciate you spending some time and sharing your wisdom, I think a bunch of really important stories and nuggets and things that lawyers can, you know, learn from and be inspired by. So really, really great stuff. I just appreciate you taking some time for us today.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [32:10]
of course, of course. And hey, everybody, thank you for spending time with Carrie and I, again, you know, listen, it’s it’s there, you know, the informations there. You know, the ability for you to go out and get business and be that lawyer is just hanging out there. You just got to grab it, and understand it’s no longer an optional part of the job. But you gotta lean into it. You know, no doubt about it, right? So listen, be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Keep listening to the show, keep meeting great people and hearing great tips. And, you know, again, it’s all about helping you to do that. So be well be safe. We’ll talk again soon.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for grilling a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes