In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Erica Minchella discuss:
- Finding your way to do business development, regardless of personality type.
- Business development that makes sense for your practice and values.
- Insecurity isn’t a defect – make it your greatest asset.
- Being who you are and making an effort in building your book of business.
- Relationship networking is one of the best ways to do business. Keep top of mind, stay on social media, go to groups, but keep building those relationships.
- You have to have a number of different sources of business development to keep work flowing as markets change.
- If you think there is a group that can benefit your firm or others in your field and it doesn’t exist – start it. Be willing to bring like-minded people together.
- People do not want to hear everything about you. Listen first, don’t talk more than 50%, and pay active attention to the other person.
“Follow-up is really critical. It makes you look like somebody that you want to take to the next step.” — Erica Minchella
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
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people, business, lawyer, attorneys, listening, meeting, practice, book, marketing, clients, erica, firm, build, steve, helping, talk, important, writing, development, law
Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Erica Minchella, Jordan Ostroff
Erica Minchella [00:00]
Follow up is really critical. It’s critical. It makes you look like somebody that you want to take to the next step.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:37]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, as the announcer mentioned, and I’m happy that you’re with me today. Hopefully, you’ve been listening for a while. And if you haven’t, you should be getting some good tips and ideas on how to grow your law practice. That’s the name of the game for this show. And I think for you as a lawyer, and if you’re a new listener, welcome, happy to have you. And again, this show is all about helping you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized and a skilled Rainmaker, and my job is to try to bring on great guests that have lots of value to share. And today is no different. I’ve got Erica waiting in the wings. How’s it going, Erica? I’m doing by doing fine. Sounds like you dropped something.
You just dropped something but I had no idea.
Steve Fretzin [01:17]
Maybe not so fine. You just You just had a stuffed full on stroke and you passed out at the at the desk guide. Okay. Before we get into Erica story, which is fascinating, and we’re gonna get into the weeds today on building a practice. I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors. We’ve got legalese marketing, helping on the marketing side with your newsletter, your law Maddix, your social media websites, all that jazz. We’ve got practice Panther, with your your practice management system, keeping you organized and billing and focusing on your business. And of course money. Penny, who is helping on that virtual reception. If you go to my website, you’ll get hit up by a live receptionist on my website. What can I help you with? What can we do for you? What can Fretzin do? And you can always talk to someone for money penny on my website. It’s not me. That’s okay. You’ll get to me eventually. Ah, I’m exhausted already from that. Erica, you gave me a quote and I want to get your take on this. It’s Mark Twain. Honor is a harder master than law.
What’s up with that? Well, I think that people don’t realize just how important it is to have integrity
Steve Fretzin [02:29]
in books totally lost today. I mean, it’s, it’s like 50% people believe in that 50% either don’t believe in it or being drifting. And I’m not going to get into any political conversations. But like, it seems like people like half the population is just like totally throwing it out.
But Mark Twain is one of my favorite authors. I love his sarcasm. I love his sense of humor. And when I saw that, quote from him, it just spoke to me because integrity is the bedrock of the way I practice law. There are times when I will not take the client because I don’t think I can do a good job for them. There are times when I get so passionate about my clients that even years later after the case is concluded my my brain may be working on it at three o’clock in the morning. But it’s that integrity of the work I do not just about making money, not just about the balance of the law. It’s just it’s just it is that important
Steve Fretzin [03:34]
to now. It’s like it’s the glue that holds everything together. And if you take that away, then you know, all the other things that matter in life sort of fall away. So I’m, I’m a big believer in integrity, a big believer and honor and taking care of people and treating people right. And anyway, I think that that quote just really sums it up. So I appreciate your sharing that Erica Michela is the president of Michela and Associates, you and I have known each other for how long? Let’s play that game. It’s gotta be 10 years.
How long have you been doing? How long have you been doing this?
Steve Fretzin [04:08]
So I’ve been in business since 2004. And I started working with attorneys primarily focused in 2008.
So you probably met very shortly after that. I’ve told you all along that I want to be you when I retire. I mean,
Steve Fretzin [04:24]
let me know we’ll put it into play. Okay. Okay.
I love business development. And I’ve watched the way you’ve done it and I admire it. I have followed it. Every once in a while. I feel like I’ve gotten kicked in the butt about things that I’m not doing that you are so passionate about teaching lawyers and I’ve always appreciated the way you have done this. So I probably have known you virtually since you started doing this and I have followed you all these years. I keep saying I you have been only have a little bit to do Each meet because that really is my passion. But you always teach me something. And so I’m always I’m a groupie state. All right,
Steve Fretzin [05:08]
well, listen, I don’t mind having a groupie or two. But listen, I think your attitude about business development is unique. There are people I interview on this show that habit, and there’s a vast majority of the attorneys don’t, not only do they not have interest in business development, they’re avoiding it at all costs. So how can I bury myself? And so, I mean, I just had an attorney that engaged me, who has been told that he’s being let go from his big, firm. And even as an equity. I mean, he bought it and everything, but it I know, and he knows we agreed on it, that it’s because he doesn’t have a book of business. And I think he hired me too late, I think five years ago, would have been a much better time for him to engage me. Now, of course, he’s working with me, and we’re going to help find a great firm, and he’s going to end up being terrific, I’m not worried about it. He’s not worried about it. But it does really show them the importance of having that book of business.
Absolutely. You know, I realized that I am an extrovert, and my husband is an introvert. And the one thing that I I can see from that is that I can be at the end of the day with nothing left. And I go out with people, and I am energized and I am raring to go, and I am in my group. You take my husband, who gets his energy from being alone and working and thinking through and you put him in a group of people and he stands there going, Okay, how much longer do I have to be here? And, you know, I think that’s very true of lawyers, there are those for whom building business is a pleasure. And there are those for whom it’s it’s just a chore. And it can be that extrovert, introvert, dynamic, or it can just be you know, your personality, your or your insecurities.
Steve Fretzin [07:00]
I think that’s why God created alcohol, right? Help those help to help those introverts loosen up a little bit. But ultimately, you know, we’ve got a mix of people that are comfortable with business development, uncomfortable, you know, introvert extrovert, and ultimately, you all have to find your own way to market and do business development that might pull you out of your comfort zone a little bit, but maybe not all the way. So like, an example would be, I work with some very introverted, for example, intellectual property attorneys, they’re engineers. They’re just they’re very detail oriented introverts. You make eye contact with them for like five seconds or handle explode. Okay? That introverted? Alright. And, but, so, let’s say going to a big cocktail party with 100 people that’s not their jam. Okay, fine, then let’s figure out are you better one on one, yeah, much better one on one, then I can, I can really focus in on that, you know, feeling like I’ve got to drink my way through the event. Okay, well, then let’s focus on that. Or let’s focus on writing blogs, or let’s focus on something where you can build without having to put yourself so far out of your comfort zone that you’re miserable.
Well, and I’ve been asked to lead discussions on networking. And one of the things that surprises people is that I can be very shy, if I’m in a group of people, I don’t know, it’s painful for me. And I have developed my own way of dealing with it, of attaching myself to people and making them have to deal with me, and going early to going early to an event so that I’m talking to people at the very beginning, because they have no one else to talk to, so that they will start introducing me. And also going in with an idea of what I’m going to be able to talk to people about in order to be able to carry on a conversation. And I also know I only want to talk 50% of the time, so that I’m making other people communicate with
Steve Fretzin [08:56]
- And that’s sort of that’s sort of a lost art to I mean, asking people questions, listening. But you said something really interesting. And most networkers don’t know about this, but a great way is to is you’re going into an event as a stranger to meet one or two people up front, find out how long they’ve been there and that they’ve been there a while or get set up by the by the event coordinator, they can just set you up on a little 10 minute date of beginning of event and let them know who you want to meet and then say Hey, since I don’t know anybody, you know, everybody, can you walk me around and introduce me they you know, to some other lawyers or some other people, and now you’ve got like a guided tour around a meeting around a room versus wandering to the bar and wandering to the buffet and like sitting, you know,
everyone knows if you are uncomfortable
Steve Fretzin [09:43]
to wander, they noticed they pointed to in smile. Yeah, it’s you see that
panic in your eyes?
Steve Fretzin [09:51]
Yeah. But let me ask I mean, you’ve been doing this a while and I want to say in the 35 to 40 year reign, 40 year range. You’ve been an attorney Ernie, how have you seen the business side change in since the 80s 90s? Moving into today,
sir, well, I started when we were not allowed to advertise, okay. And then we were moved into just the beginning, I think I started just at the beginning of being able to send direct mail letters. And then we were able to start advertising and, you know, we could we could do it professionally, or we could do a crudely Life is short, get a divorce, you know, those kinds of ads. So I, you know, I’ve watched this development. And I’ve signed up occasionally for leads. And I find that in all of these years, relationship, networking, has been the best way for me to build my business. Now I do some writing, I spread my name around as best I can I do the best I can of keeping top of mind for people, social media is good for that. And that’s something new too. I mean, we didn’t have social media 40 years ago, that whole idea of staying top of mind, but, but that core, a sense of, I am marketing myself as a professional, and I’m not going to do techy things like Life is short, save your house from foreclosure, you know,
Steve Fretzin [11:28]
you’re not going to put yourself up on a billboard with some cheesy, you know, it just it would,
it would embarrass me to do that. I mean, that’s not to say that it’s not right for the people who are doing it and it has to fit for your personality. It has to fit for your client base.
Steve Fretzin [11:46]
Something that I’ve struggled with is I see all these peed now it’s like so overdone that I would never want to get into it now. But all the people that are doing these these, like videos where they’re walking down a hallway, or they’re driving in their car, talk into the video. And it’s like, you know what, I think the first couple people that did it, like, what’s his name? The big marketer guy, it’ll pop into my head a minute, but like, but it used to be a thing like, Oh, here’s my day. Look at me, I’m so natural. This is not you know, this is not something that, you know, I’m just talking off the cuff. And like, that was a thing. And I’m like, first of all, that’s not me. And second of all, I think it’s been so overdone at this point, it wouldn’t even make it wouldn’t even make sense to try to pull it off yet. Some people are still doing it.
Yeah, I again, you know, you don’t want to look like everybody else.
Steve Fretzin [12:37]
It’s Gary Vee. Gary Vee is the guy here. Yeah, you know, Gary Vee. He’s like, the most popular like, you know, YouTuber on business and marketing. And he’s, he’s built he’s built. He’s built this huge company. But I mean, it would be him getting in and out of his limo and him getting in and out of meetings and walk around cam with his phone on him the whole time or camera.
It was just like, these people. Yeah. Or if I did that,
Steve Fretzin [13:03]
right. Yeah. Here’s me walking my dog for you know, 20 minutes and picking up poop. Steve, thanks. Thanks for sharing. So it sounds like it sounds like it’s all about yeah, there’s been an evolution of marketing and business development. But But ultimately, it comes back to what are you comfortable doing that makes sense for your practice and for your personality? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what about the mindset? Like you, we started off the show really hot and heavy around like you’re a business developer, you love it, you enjoy that part of it. But what’s the general mindset that you’re seeing in the marketplace around around marketing and business development? Has it changed in the last 20 years? 15 years? 10
years? Yeah, I think that there’s really a drive for that. Because we are, you know, there’s, there are a limited number of clients for the number of attorneys that are out there. And there have been times certainly when there has not been enough work to go around. And people are doing some strange things to build a business or to accept business or to handle their business. And so I think the mindset really depends on whether there’s enough business to go around. And people don’t have to do weird things to get business in the door, or whether they just they’ve established themselves well enough, that business is going to come to them. And you know, we all have highs and lows in terms of the amount of business that’s coming in. And that sense of when it’s low. It’s temporary, and you need that time to be marketing. And when it’s high, you poke back on the marketing so that you can handle the business that’s come in because you don’t want to have so much business that you’re not handling it appropriately. But
Steve Fretzin [15:00]
yeah, it’s got to take care of the client is the number one priority, I would say it’s almost like if you’re driving a car, and if things are slow, and you can push the pedal down to 70. And then business picks up, don’t drop down to zero, maybe drop down to 20. So you still have something going on, my hope is that people have things going on behind the scenes. So it’s not just about you taking coffee meetings, resume meetings, you’ve got the LinkedIn, in social media working, you’ve got ads running, or you’ve got something happening that’s working all that your website and SEO, something that’s working on a regular basis. So that when you do get busy, you know, you’re again, not turning off, you know, turning off the water completely.
Yeah, that’s a really good point that that you have to have a number of different ways of developing business, it can’t just be coffee, you know, you can’t and it can’t just be Oh, I met somebody I’ll follow up with them until they’re tired of listening, you know, hearing from me, you have to have a number of different sources for it. And that’s that’s a matter of looking at what you’re good at, and what you feel comfortable with. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [16:17]
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Jordan Ostroff [16:54]
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Steve Fretzin [17:17]
Hey Steph, tell everyone what Moneypenny does for law firms
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [17:20]
where the call handling and live chat experts and Moneypenny receptionist can ensure that your calls are directed to the right person seamlessly saving you time and money. Steve, did you know that 69% of people don’t like to leave a voicemail?
Steve Fretzin [17:34]
I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [17:40]
We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846. I mentioned that you’ve heard this add on Steve’s podcast.
Steve Fretzin [17:54]
Very cool. Thanks. Sounds like your secret sauce has been relationships and networking and meeting people that are strategically aligned with you and for you talk about that. How did you figure out you know who to meet and how to target? And what’s going to make more sense. Is it meeting an Avon Avon lady? Or is it meeting you know, someone in a different form of real estate or state planning or something like that? Nothing against Avon ladies, by the way?
Sure. No, I went to law school knowing that I wanted to be in my own business. I it took two years with a firm and then I wanted to be in my own business. And so I developed relationships in law school, and with and I worked my way through law school. So I developed relationships with the people I was working with, so that I would walk into my own business with those relationships to come to me I had I was in bankruptcy. That was all I was doing. None of my law school classmates were doing bankruptcy. So I was the go to person for it. But I’ve got to admit that part of my business development has has come from my insecurities. So when I started doing foreclosure work, I realized that there were people who were so much smarter than me, and they had so many different ideas about how to defend a foreclosure and I’d sit in that courtroom day after day going. I don’t get it. I don’t know how to do this. I’m sole practitioner with a part time employee, how am I ever going to figure this out? So I started calling people out of the courtroom and saying, Do you want to start a group of foreclosure defense attorneys, which we started in October of 2010. They made me president because it was my idea and I still president. But from that, I realized that I had an opportunity. I had a platform and I had an opportunity to then go to the ISBA president and say, Don’t you want me to be on the real estate section Council? And I went to a real and I said Don’t you want me to be on your board of directors and so I It was from that insecurity of I don’t know what I’m doing, instead of taking it as a defect, I turned it into my greatest asset. It wasn’t just relationships for developing people it was for developing those things would, which would work best for me to parlay them into other opportunities.
Steve Fretzin [20:27]
Yeah, I mean, ultimately, three things that I picked out of what you just said, one is, you know, having an idea to start a group to start something and be a leader within that. So like, you know, you could be a part of something, or you can start something and get some momentum behind it. Right, then ultimately, you can then parlay that into, right, the Bar Association or other places where you could take it’s like, writing an article, and then you having an on your blog, and then you know, what, maybe I could, you know, put this in the Chicago Daily law bulletin, or, or I started writing for the legal business world that was posted the other day, and like, Okay, now I’m writing for an international publication. But you know, I’ve also been running groups forever. And that’s something I decided to do similar to you, because I was actually finding that most most groups I was belonging to were terrible, they weren’t, they weren’t, well run. They weren’t facilitated. I wasn’t getting results, either with either were some of the people that I was talking to was like, You know what, I could do better than this. And if I know good people, they might come with me. And now we’ve got a separate thing, you know, and we can we can build it, but that I think people don’t realize that’s out of the box, and it’s very doable. It’s very, is yes. So what what are some, then tips and ideas that you would provide to or that you do provide to young attorneys or attorneys that are, maybe they’re not in the marketing business development mindset, yet, maybe they just started listening to the show, because they’re interested in getting more engaged in these activities. As a part of look, you know, getting your own clients having your own book is the second most important thing, being a lawyer these days, maybe being a great lawyer is kind of number one. And then number two is a you got to have your own clients. So what are what are the things that you would say, either work for you, or that you think, you know, would really benefit, you know, the people listening?
So I really, I’ve got two associates, one of whom would do absolutely no marketing. And we had any opportunity to avoid it. And the other one was work for me for a year. And I have incentives for both of them. But I’ve spent the time watching who they are what they do, in order to tell them where they should be looking. So one of them is really kind of introverted, but he’s very comfortable sitting in a bar. And I said, go out to the bars near your home. Turns out
Steve Fretzin [22:57]
he’s an alcoholic now, and it’s all your fault. Thanks, Ally, nice job. Some boss,
that that’s where he makes those connections, right. And it’s been able to bring in some business, he also does a lot of business. He’s in a high rise building, he’s been meeting people there, he makes a point of going to events in the building, he has something to talk to people about. And that’s, that’s one of the most comforting things is if you go someplace where you know, you can start a conversation, the other one has just moved to Chicago a year ago. And I could tell he was pretty lonely. And I said, you know, it really is time for you to get out. Here are some places some groups you might want to go to. And it was just the push he needed because he started looking at that website meetup, the meetup website, which gives you a list of place of things that are going on, so that you can decide what works for you and what doesn’t. And I will tell you, he’s been coming back to the office saying, Well, I met these people that do this. And I think we may be able to make a connection here and the enthusiasm, because we found exactly what that fit was for him was what Were I not asking him to be me. Right? I’m asking him to be him with both of my associates. And I think that’s true of any attorney, be you
Steve Fretzin [24:24]
be who you are. But making effort, right? It’s important to that individual. It’s important to the firm the future success of how we build networks, build relationships, bringing clients. But this is such a great a crazy, important point that you’re making that it doesn’t have to be painful. It can be something that you actually enjoy doing, and go do it. And in doing so then guess what? You have to ask people questions, what do you do? Oh, I am a CEO of, you know, a $50 million manufacturing company in this area. Okay, tell me more. And then shut up and listen and wait and and no management comes around. Yeah,
that’s the key is that you have to understand that people don’t want to hear everything about you. It’s, for me, it’s a 50% rule. And if I feel like I’m overdoing the 50% rule, like cut myself back, and I’m only doing 40%, and I keep asking questions, I, which means you have to listen, you have to be paying attention to the other person. And once you have that, people love to talk about themselves. And and you are then drawing them in, you also know how to how to question them further, and where there might be a fit with you. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [25:39]
I mean, you either you either put people in one or two buckets, either you listen to them, you like them. And you say this is someone I can be friends with, and just let it go at that. There’s no business, there’s no networking, there’s no connection that they can be a friend. But then there’s the other side, oh, here’s a lawyer, here’s a consultant, here’s a CEO, this could actually be something that could be a win win, I’m going to keep listening, I’m going to keep asking, I’m going to stay in the pocket. Football,
there’s a third category, okay, people you don’t really want to talk to and you have to extricate yourself from and there’s nothing wrong with that. Yeah, there are people that are just not a fit for you. There’s somebody across the room that you just saw that you need to go and talk to, and it was so nice talking to ya find find a good exit strategy. But you don’t have to become a prisoner to the right person in a networking event,
Steve Fretzin [26:31]
right. You know, the easiest? Well, there’s the bathroom, there’s the bar, there’s, I gotta say, see somebody? I would also say like, you know, I promised myself when I came here today, I was going to try to meet three people. Yeah. So you know, I was really great meeting you. I’m excited. I’m just gonna, you know, check out everybody else. Very, very nice. And then get the heck out of there. And yeah, no person behind their back.
Yeah, you don’t have to be a prisoner to somebody who has decided that you are such a good listener, that they’re just going
Steve Fretzin [26:58]
to keep talking. Right, right, great stuff. Any other tips that you feel would be really helpful to people that are trying to build that book a business or run a more successful practice,
something that you really push, and that’s follow up that you can’t just say, Oh, it was really nice meeting you. exchange business cards, exchange, V cards, whatever, and then never communicate with them. Again,
Steve Fretzin [27:28]
the other thing is follow up when you’ve gotten a referral, or connection from them, you need to thank people that people want to know that the connection has been made, and that you’re appreciative. So that follow up is really critical. It’s critical, it makes you look like somebody that you want to take to the next step. You know, and I think it’s important not only, not only to say thank you, but to acknowledge that it was meaningful. And if you don’t follow up, to say thank you, but then also just, people say they’re going to do something, they’re going to, you know, connect you with someone or they’re going to do something and then they just forget or they’re just disorganized. It’s not malicious. It’s not you know, they’re not bad people. However, it’s a problem. Because it I’ve got the Seinfeld isms up behind me here, and serenity now and no soup for you and all that. But there’s the most famous, you know, one from this from from the angle we’re talking about is, you know, the car reservation, you know, Jerry’s at the, at the car rental. And they you know, she says, Yes, we have your reservation, but we don’t have a car for you. He said, Well, that’s the most important part. You can take the reservation, the reservation, that’s what we’re talking about here is people can can say they’re going to do something or follow up and then they don’t Well then what was all that? Yeah. Big problem. Big problem. Well, fantastic stuff. Erica, you’ve got a game changing book and it’s resonating with me it’s familiar to me by just can’t play so what would that be?
The name of it is. I’m sorry.
Steve Fretzin [29:11]
I totally put you on the spot. You told me you were gonna say sales Free selling. That’s why I pay the extra money.
Thank you. It’s under the table. Because I think it’s it’s such an important book for explaining how we build those relationships. It’s not about selling. It’s about developing the relationships doing the follow up. I mean, all everything that you’ve ever taught, it really comes into that book and it’s been one of my favorites. Now I’m not much of a not much of a nonfiction reader. So you have to be particularly flattered that I
Steve Fretzin [29:52]
remember how I am in delivery ask you Did it help that it’s written as a story because that’s that’s what people can handle on a on a on a nonfiction how to book maybe
that’s, you know, maybe I didn’t even pay attention to the fact that that’s what it was. And that’s what drew me in Yeah, because I’m very much I was an English major, you know? Firstly,
Steve Fretzin [30:13]
well I can tell you that it was by far the most challenging book of the four that I’ve written because I wrote it as a story as opposed to how to, I can do how to, like, I can create an article that people would really enjoy it and in less than an hour and like well thought out, good takeaways like that I can do that jam all day. But when I had to write, you know, you know, the actual conversations, and he said, and they sat and they shared and Oh, my God, my editor was coming back to you. This is messed up.
I tried writing a novel. Once I have a very fascinating case that I dealt with. And I tried turning it into a novel and I, I can’t, and that’s all I read it. It’s hard. It is this is, yeah. Well, very cool. Erica, thank
Steve Fretzin [31:01]
you so much for being on the program in the show and sharing your wisdom. If people want to get in touch with you and learn more about your practice and maybe connect with you to network, what’s the best way for them to reach you?
Well, either by my website, real legal solutions.com or by phone 847-677-6772.
Steve Fretzin [31:23]
That’s a lot of sevens. Yes, it is. Okay. somebody’s favorite number. They’re gonna really enjoy that.
at&t just gave it to us. Oh, okay.
Steve Fretzin [31:31]
Wow, that sounds fine. Well, anyway, I am just so happy that we’re friends. And I’m happy that you were able to come on the show. And I apologize that it took me so long to get you here. I think. You know, it was it was overdue to finish your questionnaire. questionnaire. Yeah, I’ve got to wait. You know, I have already Friday. You did great.
Yeah, but it took me a couple of tries.
Steve Fretzin [31:54]
Wow. All right. Well,
I appreciate your having me on the show. I really enjoyed this.
Steve Fretzin [32:00]
Yeah, this was great. And hey, everybody, listen, you know, this is an opportunity for you to be inspired and to be you know, thoughtful about how you’re going to build your own book of business. Whether you’re at a big firm, you’re a solo, it really doesn’t matter. It’s ultimately, do you have a book of business? Do you have your own clients, and there’s all kinds of bad stuff that can happen out there. And there’s too many attorneys that are coming to me in their 50s and their 60s, who have been fed work for too many years. It’s not a great way to be so now this shows one step forward to help you be that lawyer, someone who is confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Thank you again, Erica. Thanks for having me. And thanks, everybody, for being here. We’ll talk again soon.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes