In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Harrison Jordan discuss:
- Staying in touch with changing technologies.
- Practicing legal in the metaverse.
- What is important in running your own law firm.
- Tips for making fewer mistakes in growing your business.
- The metaverse can be its own digital universe, or it can be grafted onto the existing universe, your existing reality here on Earth.
- Ask your clients for a review on Google. It will help your analytics and SEO.
- Business development and marketing are not the same things. Both are important to grow and build your practice.
- If you find an area of law interesting, niche into it and dig down, especially if you have the knowledge and understanding of the area of practice.
“If you have a good understanding of a subject and the law behind it, and you see that it’s something that is in need, then consider jumping into it.” — Harrison Jordan
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Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
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metaverse, cannabis, lawyers, legal, people, psychedelics, law, harrison, practice, steve, business, marketing, nf, helping, reviews, recommendations, niching, important, world, relationships
Stephanie Vaughn Jones, Harrison Jordan, Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff
Harrison Jordan [00:00]
If you have a good understanding of a subject and the law behind it, and you see it’s something that is in need, then consider jumping into it.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer, coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:35]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am Steve Fretzin, your host and I hope you’re having a wonderful day. Listen, we have an a great show for you today. As usual, if you’re a regular listener, I would really love it if you would give us some kind words on, on whatever device you’re using, or web connection to talk about the show to give us a thumbs up to rate us and say some nice things. If you’re enjoying it, you know, share it out with the world we’re trying to get as larger audiences we can and you’re our audience, and we appreciate you and we hope that you can spread the word. If you don’t know too much about Fretzin. And what I do here, I only do two things. I work with very ambitious individual attorneys to help them grow their law practices. And of course, I run peer advisory groups helping very successful lawyers continue that success by putting them in peer advisory groups with other like minded lawyers to talk about their problems and work on solutions and hold each other accountable to hit some big big numbers and just got out of one the other day and holy mackerel everyone in that in that room is crushing it and just like success breeds success. So that’s what’s going on. I got Harrison sitting in the wings. How’s it going? Harrison?
It’s going great. How are you?
Steve Fretzin [01:45]
Good you know you have two first names right Harrison Jordan.
Well, I’ve got a first name as a last name and a last name as a first name. Yeah. And doctors offices never get it I’ve stopped correcting them
Steve Fretzin [01:56]
Yeah, and when I look you up online there’s a lot more Jordan Harrison’s than Harrison Jordans. Yes that so there’s
that lane my parents
Steve Fretzin [02:03]
I will I want their numbers when we’re done with the show. I’m gonna give them a little little piece of my mind. Everybody we’ve got some sponsors to thank we’ve got money Penny, we’ve got practice Panther, and, of course, legalese. Thank them, thank them for being such a great part of the show and being supportive. We’ve got a quote that no one has maybe heard of in the US Europe in Toronto. And a proof is a proof. So that’s out of
visit proof. Proof is. So a proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it’s because it’s proven that John kucha when he was Prime Minister, and I think the reporters kept bugging him about Iraq, why he wasn’t going to go into Iraq, what proof he needed that there weren’t WMDs. And I just, I find it funny, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof, it’s a proof. Proof is proof. Is it proof? And when you have a good proof, it’s because it’s proven. That’s it and that’s all we need to know. And he was he was his very, I guess, upset at the reporters keep asking, Well, what do you need to see? What do you need to see? And is it what do you mean, what do I need to see? So it’s a funny quote, and I have respect for him for that quote?
Steve Fretzin [03:13]
Well, in the US, we have a new one. It’s everybody’s everybody says, That’s a new one, right? Someone I won’t say who came up with that. But But when a politician says, you know, everybody’s saying, probably nobody, probably nobody say, right, but that’s what everybody’s saying. And it must be true. And it must be the whatever. Anyway, we won’t get into politics on this show. But let’s talk about religion. No, let’s not do that either. Harrison Jordan, you’re up in Toronto, you’ve got a super interesting practice. And as we get into this conversation, people are going to realize, you know, a lot more about stuff that they don’t. And so we’re gonna get, as I as you guys know what I’m talking you guys understand what I’m talking about in a minute. But if you would be so kind to give your background and how you, you know, just kind of like getting into law and then kind of where you’ve taken your practice that would be great.
Yeah, so I’m a call of the 2018. And I was always interested in cannabis. And I’ve always been interested in the law. And so I thought to combine the two and it’s been an interesting journey. I pretty much wrote all my law school papers that I could on cannabis, you know, if I if I could, and you know, why not from different perspectives. There’s a globalization class I took anyways, from there. I ended up working when I got into law school I applied and in the entrance essay, I wrote about this professor and and how I really appreciated that they tendered him even though he was saying stuff like let’s legalize cannabis, and he was going to the court Supreme Court to strike down the gambling and sex work and cannabis laws and I thought it was great that they tested him because he was outspoken. And long story short, I ended up when I applied I got in and I ended up being placed in his criminal law class. And then from there, he’s also head of Innocence Project at Osgoode. Hall. So I was part of that I was basically half of my duties were related to the Innocence Project, which he was the director of, and the other half was cannabis law related matters. And then from there, articled at a cannabis law firm, and almost right after I went into practice, from part time, practice to full time practice, and now I’ve expanded my law practice to cover psychedelics, non fungible tokens and other regulated substances.
Steve Fretzin [05:45]
Yeah, so are the psychedelics legal in Canada yet? Or no?
Well, no, they’re not generally legal. There is a pathway for patients should be able to medically gain access. But basically, it’s a difficult program. You don’t know if you’re going to get into the program or not. It has to be a debilitating disease condition. Yeah. And so it’s, it doesn’t cover everything. And Health Canada, when assessing applications, they look at the latest evidence, right? If there’s a phase two, or phase three, showing that something is safe and effective, then then they’ll use that to guide their interpretation. But no, generally not not legal, you can obtain access from this program for medicinally. If it’s debilitating condition, and but you can’t possess it yourself. It has to be administered to you by a doctor or a psychotherapist or nurse. Whereas in the US, I know some states are saying, we’ll get rid of that we’ll we’ll decriminalize the simple possession of it and call it a day. And as some people will say that’s better, but no, generally not legal here.
Steve Fretzin [06:55]
Okay. And you mentioned a minute ago to about NF T’s. I think there’s a lot of confusion about what those are and why we should care. Like, what is that? What are they about? And what’s all the hubbub? Yeah,
so an NFT, or non fungible token. So if you can imagine a database, but distributed across computers around the world, an NF T, is a unique entry in that database and in that distributed database. And so your entry is a unique hash literal string of letters and numbers. And it’s registered in this database, which is not stored in one central location, and it’s propagated around the world by computers around the world. That is what an NF T is. And and that’s the blockchain that lives on. Okay. And so, itself, it’s just a token, it’s just an identifier. And you can move this identifier, this this token, this string of letters and numbers that’s unique to you on this blockchain, whatever the blockchain is, you can send it to wallets, you can carry it back, you can buy it back, so you can transfer it. And with smart contracts, on top of that, there’s been this ecosystem and economy where you can do things with your NFT, such as rent it out, lease it out fractionalize it. So basically, an NF T is that entry in that distributed database by itself, it’s just a token. It’s just an identifier.
Steve Fretzin [08:22]
I thought it was like if I sneezed into a napkin, and that was an NF t, let that I could like sell that, well,
that’s where that’s where I’m getting to go in there. Alright, I need you to sorry. So artists, artists have attached artwork, to the NFL, they don’t actually put it in the NFT, what they do is they create a hyperlink, literally a URL field that they put in, they say, Oh, I’m gonna hyperlink it to this image. And that’s the image that’s going to represent what the NFL
Steve Fretzin [08:49]
I see. So that’s why I said, it’s not that the sneeze napkin is worth a million dollars, it’s the NFT that it’s associated with, that’s just that’s
the NFT that’s associated with it. And that’s due to provenance. Artists are using it to establish provenance. But then you get into issues like, you know, if you buy an NFT of an artwork and an artist, draw another exact copy, or close copy and sell an NFT later, you know, typically, you’re not giving the copyrights away when you sell a piece. So it has some implications that make it slightly different than physical art. And then it’s very interesting because it’s a world of technology that I think has taken law and regulations by storm. And I was gonna say
Steve Fretzin [09:35]
that sounds great for the legal industry. Well, right. More and more confusion, leading to more lawsuits and more legal work more billable hours.
Oh, well, perhaps but I mean, everyone says AI is gonna take away jobs. So you know, as lawyers look at the jobs, but
Steve Fretzin [09:51]
we gotta we got to balance it out. Right. Okay. And, you know, as long as we’re talking about technology, and it seems to be something you know quite a bit about Let’s also just briefly talk about the metaverse and how this impacts the legal industry from your perspective. And that’s another area that’s very gray for a lot of people listening. And I think you can sort of explain it, and then how, what’s the legal twist on
it? Yeah, so the metaverse, there’s no set definition for it. But the metaverse is a virtual reality that is beyond the existing world, and use computers and technology to access VR goggles is, you know, the big thing people think of, and the metaverse can be its own digital universe, or it can be grafted onto the existing the existing universe, your existing reality here on Earth. And so there are technologies that display items in your view. And then there’s something about it versus when you’re in basically a completely different world. But it’s mediated by the existing world that you’re that you’re in, it doesn’t always have to use VR glasses, there are some meta verses where It’s browser based, so you’re on your computer, right? Try to make it as as immersive as possible. Some people would say it’s just MMO RPGs, just in a new form.
Steve Fretzin [11:13]
So is it but is it like is like Ready Player One, but instead of us battling right against each other with each other, and whatever, I die, and you get my
points or whatnot, but but people can have meetings? Right,
Steve Fretzin [11:25]
right. But I was gonna say, but instead we’re having a legal conversation and talking about, you know, I’m helping you with a legal challenge. Is that is that more in line with where it’s going and with the legal industry?
Well, the metaverse anything can happen in the metaverse, right. And so certainly, I think we’re gonna see a lot of businesses jump into the metaverse and have offices in the metaverse. There are lawyers that already have offices in the metaverse and I want to I want to have an office in the metaverse. They don’t yet because I want to find a good Metaverse where I can be the first lawyer to have a law office there. Otherwise, you know, I don’t want to be the third or fourth. But I might eventually do that if everyone’s reaching to a certain Metaverse, but I think yeah, meetings are going to be huge. But with the understanding that for lawyers that take consultations, legal consultations in the metaverse, law societies haven’t caught up. And I think there’s still going to be a expectation that you provide law in respect to the jurisdiction that you’re licensed for. Otherwise, things can get a bit hairy. So I don’t think it changes the game in respect of and hopefully law societies, they, they come in, and they they address it somehow. But otherwise, I would say it’s great. Even if you’re meeting people in your jurisdiction to do it in the metaverse, it’s, I don’t want to say it’s more informal, but it’s it’s cooler.
Steve Fretzin [12:48]
Okay, I mean, I’m gonna I’m gonna like have a character’s a moose with a funny, you know, funny beer hat or something. And then I’m going to go in and we’re going to talk about serious legal topics. It’ll just be super we
can do that. As long as you know, we’re not doing anything too offensive that people would not take too kindly to I know there’s a member of or safety week now. I just got a notification. It’s Metaverse, safety at safety and the metaverse I mean, why not? It’s it’s like a it’s like a virtual reality. So maybe soon we’ll start seeing, you know, violence and robberies and other verses, I don’t know. But it’s like a universe that’s beyond the universe. And so you have to grapple with all these legal and ethical quagmire sort of similar to how you have to do that on the good old Earth.
Steve Fretzin [13:32]
Yeah. But if we come back to the show’s theme of, of how do we grow law practice isn’t something that lawyers should seriously consider getting into because there’s business there as opposed to laughing it off and just saying, whatever. That’s not for me.
Yeah, well, look, I don’t yet have a law office in the metaverse, but what I will say is that it does establish I don’t want to say prestige, but it goes to show that you are in touch with what’s happening in the industry. And look, by default, most meetings are going to be done in an office in a boardroom real or virtually through webcam. Yeah, or phone. So look, it’s not going to be like every meeting or maybe even every other meeting is in the metaverse, but I think it can be helpful for lawyers don’t want to get into this space. Definitely. I assume we’re gonna see, you know, legal disputes take place in the metaverse. I don’t know if there was a joke or if it was an actual personal injury lawyer bad but I saw an ad for car crashes for legal services for people who get into injuries and Metaverse, car crashes and virtual car crashes. So I don’t know if that was a joke or not. But it does highlight that there’s going to be disputes in the metaverse. So even if you’re not thinking let’s get into NF, let me get 10 of t law but I want to still be in touch with what’s happening and maybe participate You should definitely consider getting a law office in the metaverse.
Steve Fretzin [15:03]
Alright, so we’re going to keep people’s minds open about that. I think the injury I can foresee is actually like walking into a wall with the glasses on because I think there’s there’s more room to walk in there isn’t. But that’s a different type. That’s a different type of personal injury. As a listener of this podcast, I hope you’ve learned some valuable lessons when it comes to not just managing your firm but helping you thrive. Practice Panther, the all in one legal practice management software is designed to help you do just that. It has powerful reporting that gives you real time feedback on the health of your firm and its finances automated workflows that free up your schedule while keeping your cases on track, and tons of native feature like E signature and two way texting that keeps your clients happy and informed. With practice Panther you don’t have to do it all by yourself. Get a free demo with practice panther.com/v That lawyer to receive 10% off your first year.
Jordan Ostroff [15:58]
legalese marketing is not your traditional marketing vendor. Instead, we’re a true fractional cmo that helps you save time and spend your money the right way to build a practice of your dreams. We help through the entire process from customizing your intake system to driving leads, and even getting more reviews afterwards, schedule your free call at legalese marketing.com.
Steve Fretzin [16:20]
Hey Steph, tell everyone what Moneypenny does for law firms
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [16:24]
where the call handling and live chat experts and Moneypenny receptionist can ensure that your calls are directed to the right person seamlessly saving you time and money. Steve, did you know that 69% of people don’t like to leave a voicemail?
Steve Fretzin [16:38]
I did not know that. That’s a lot of business going away right there. Let’s cut to the chase. What are you prepared to do for my listeners?
Stephanie Vaughn Jones [16:44]
We’re offering an exclusive two week free trial. If you’re interested in hearing more, you can call me directly on 470-534-8846 and mentioned that you’ve heard this ad on Steve’s podcast.
Steve Fretzin [16:58]
Very cool. Thanks. So your look, you’re a solo practice, you’re up in Toronto, and you’ve been, you know, working on Growing Your law practice and really focusing What are a couple of things that you focus on to build your law practice that you think would be helpful to my audience as it relates to whether they’re solo or whether they’re, you know, a lawyer at a firm, it’s, it’s all you Inc, right? We all got to build business and bring in clients. So
what are your thoughts? Well, I think first of all, you should have a good set of presidents, especially if you’re a solo practitioner, or smaller, firm. And so there are some companies, at least in Canada that offer a very big database of those. So I would say that’s important. But also, marketing and staying on top of your marketing efforts, I think is very important. I think Google Ads can be very helpful. I also think you should follow up with clients to get reviews on on Google, ask them straight up, I and I get a review on Google. And I’ll say it’s You’re under no obligation, obviously. But with with a review, if you can, if you can increase your your reviews, what the reviews are getting, if you can implement some Google ads, and if you can stay on top of search engine optimization, it can lead to a continuous supply of finance. Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [18:17]
And everybody, you know, has a different way of getting business. And if your business revolves around internet leads, web leads, things like that, search engine optimization, pay per click, and Google ads are going to be really, really critical. And then I would say on top of that, you know, obviously, you know, relationships, right client relationships, client loyalty, and developing strategic relationships with lawyers and other professionals that can refer you and the way that I talk about it on a fairly regular basis is a mountain and on one side is marketing. And on the other side is business development. They’re not the same. Sometimes lawyers call business development, marketing, but it’s not the same. So we want a marketing, you know, search engine optimization, content creation, how are we you know, getting the word out to the masses. And then on this side, it’s the individual relationships that you’re developing. And if you can get to the peak of the mountain, Dew and both of those, you’re gonna find yourself in a really good place where all of the marketing is paying off, but then the relationships are, are working out. And the marketing starts to really enhance and backup and support the efforts on the business development side.
Absolutely, yeah. And having that marketing, as well as the business development both both are key because you’re building relationships at the end of the day. And there are just as many people that might come to you through word of mouth as their as their is online. So you want to have
Steve Fretzin [19:48]
a good mix. So Harrison, you mentioned, you know, Google reviews, and I think it’s really important to note whether it’s Google reviews, whether it’s LinkedIn, testimonials, recommendations, etc. That that type of social proof is critical to, again, your reputation and how and in people that know the people or might know the people that give those recommendations just that way, it’s really become a more important thing now than ever, before people make a decision to hire a lawyer, hire me go to a restaurant. Is that kind of how you see this? Well,
absolutely. And when you get reviews that are detailed and mentioned specific keywords, it should all things being equal helped your search engine optimization for those terms.
Steve Fretzin [20:31]
Yeah. And I try to coach people through recommendations. So like, I’m always concerned, they’re gonna say, Steve was nice. I like Steve, Steve’s a good dude. Like, that’s like, that’s a LinkedIn review, that’s not going to really do well for me. So what I’m really looking for is, is I’m looking to coach people, not to give them the words or write it for them, but really, to coach them on what I call the bar, I’m gonna give you an acronym that that that I like to use, it’s before after results, or before after recommend. So before working with Steve, you know, I was all over the place with my networking activities, my marketing, et cetera, et cetera, who was just kind of a big, you know, hot mess. And now I’ve got process, I’ve got systems, I’ve got more business than I can handle. And I highly recommend it to other attorneys. Okay, so if that’s the recommendation, and someone’s reading that and they may even know that person. And if by the way, a real person, it’s not like Bob, at my website, it’s like a real recommendation that I think for me and for attorneys can go a long way to help secure the business and maybe they’re walking into buy versus walking in to kind of test you or, or compare you
to others. Yeah, that’s great. I should implement that.
Steve Fretzin [21:40]
Got to implement that. And then the other thing is, we can take those recommendations, and then put them on our website, we can use them for social media posting, you know, put a nice graphic around it. So it’s one of a, you know, dozens and dozens of things that you can do. But I think lately, you know, I think it’s important for you to have a little bit of gumption to ask for the recommendation, ask for the review. Especially if the if the client has had a good experience. They like you, you did a good job. And they’re kind of complimenting you about it. Well, that’s a good time to say, well, listen, maybe we need to tell the world you know. Okay, so, you know, we had talked earlier about your focus on cannabis. And then we mentioned a couple other things, NF T’s and psychedelics and stuff. So is it smart to we know it’s smart to niche we’ve we’ve had many guests on the show talking about the importance of niching. I’d Chris Dreier talking about niching. Up and what that means and all that. But are there times where it makes sense to take your niche and add other services that are maybe logically, you know, similar?
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, if you’ve got what it takes, and you understand the law behind a certain industry, why not go and get it, there’s a lot of lawyers that have started in mining and then went into cannabis. And a lot of the legal principles are the same. I don’t know if I’d say the same as between cannabis and NF T’s. But you do see IP being a big issue. And so there definitely is overlap between them. If you have a good understanding of a subject and the law behind it, and you see it something that is in need, then consider jumping into it. Of course, you know, you have to make sure you understand what’s what’s part of it, you know, whether doctors or lawyers, or other professionals, you don’t jump into something that you don’t know, right, where you’re confident, you have experience related to that. And, you know, the legal underpinnings, why not go ahead, and I have a separate website that I even have for my NFT law practice, okay to show people that I’m serious about it. Yeah, so it’s like,
Steve Fretzin [23:49]
be careful, I would just put it out there. Like if you’re niching, and it’s really working, and you’re focusing and everyone knows you for cannabis. And then you start branching out and doing a bunch of other stuff, it might dilute what you’re working on, or what you’re accomplishing. At the same time. You don’t want to miss something like psychedelics that maybe is in line with cannabis, and you want to get ahead of the competition on it, because you see coming up the pike. So maybe it’s not about removing or slowing down the cannabis, but maybe it’s getting some papers written or some presentations created around the psychedelics, so that as the cannabis thing continues to move, then you’ve got the psychedelics, but they’re still both substances. So you’re still under the umbrella of I’m the substance and that’s maybe not the best language for it, but like, you know, the legalized substance lawyer, because you’re covering more ground than just cannabis. So that might be something that that really works. Well, because you’re you’re not going too far out of your space.
Yeah. Developing the thought leadership appearing in media or drafting Articles, white papers and releasing those. Yeah, that that that’s important.
Steve Fretzin [24:57]
Yeah. So kind of wrapping So a little bit and I know we want to talk about your game changing book. But what what kind of advice would you give other attorneys that are either solos or looking to go solo in in how they should approach it to not make mistakes or to make less mistakes than just sort of illustrate trial and error,
never will definitely have a mentor or mentors in terms of lawyers, that as someone you can call if let’s say there’s, you know, ethical concerns that arise, or, you know, there’s just something that you don’t have that you’re looking for. And, as I mentioned before, you should have a very good database of presidents and there are some companies that sell those every, on a yearly subscription, and make sure your marketing is fine tune and continuously, on top of things and improving.
Steve Fretzin [25:48]
Yeah, and in line with that, you know, LinkedIn, I think, just to add, you know, it’s fine to get a list of people like presidents and CEOs and GC, general counsel’s and such, but I think you really have to get to know LinkedIn and how to work it and find inside connections, ultimately, that’s what, you know, create more relationships, and, you know, cold solicitation, I don’t know your experience, but I have found it to be sort of an outdated way of approaching them and you could do to do it. It’s such a it’s such a mass number that, you know, one out of 1000 pays off, and that’s okay. But ultimately, I’d rather work 100 names intelligently and get 10 meetings. Right, you know, so let’s talk about the game changing book, The Power of Now, who wrote that and why is that your
book by Eckhart Tolle, and I, you know, some people like the book, some people don’t like the book, I just think it’s, it’s the theme of the book, the concept, where you have to act in the now and be focused on the president. I think that’s an admirable goal. Some people would just say it’s just pseudoscience. And maybe it is, and but I think it’s a good mindset to have is to focus in the now and you know, we all have issues we need to deal with. But if we’re able to focus on the present and what needs to be done, and keep yourself accountable, then things can work out in the end.
Steve Fretzin [27:14]
And are we sure the power of now isn’t about an ADHD teenager? Because that seems to be what my teenager is all about. Now. What can you do for me now? What can I get pizza now?
Maybe they maybe they can read the power of now. He’s, he’s
Steve Fretzin [27:28]
live, he’s living it, he doesn’t have to read it. Anyway, really good stuff. I appreciate you coming on the show. Harrison sharing your wisdom, explaining to us some of the technologies and some of the things that are going to impact in the legal space moving forward. If people want to get in touch with you to learn more about your practice and have questions about NF Ts and cannabis and psychedelics and metaverse? How do they get in touch with you?
So they can go to Harrison or in law.com? Or the NFT lawyer.ca? fill out a form and I’ll reply back to them.
Steve Fretzin [28:00]
All right, beautiful. And we’ll put all that in the show notes. But thanks again for being on the show and sharing your wisdom and educating us on some of the stuff that I know I’m confused by and and I feel like I know a little bit more about it now. So
thanks so much, Steve. Yeah. And hey, everybody, thank
Steve Fretzin [28:14]
you for spending some time with Harrison today. Hopefully you had some good tips and takeaways and ideas from today’s show. If nothing else, you learned quite a bit about technology that’s going to change the legal industry now and in the future. So look, it’s all about helping you be that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. Be safe be well, we’ll talk again soon.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes