In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Mark Silverman discuss:
- Understanding your clients business.
- The trigger to developing long lasting relationships.
- Arrows in your quiver of business development.
- Tips and tricks for driving engagement.
- Turn on news alerts for what is going on, when it is happening, in your clients business or industry.
- Use your calendar to keep yourself accountable to follow up and follow through.
- It’s okay to post content, even if you don’t create it, but make sure to read it so the post says what you think it is saying.
- It’s about engagement – it’s called social media for a reason.
“Follow up, follow through, and invest your time.” — Mark Silverman
Connect with Mark Silverman
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
lawyer, people, business, post, linkedin, engagement, clients, important, relationships, servicer, firm, marketing, listening, mark, meet, marco island, stay, group, shared, career
Narrator, Mark Silverman, Steve Fretzin
Mark Silverman [00:00]
I think in practice, it’s who you gel with, and who you can be authentic with and who you can really authentically forge that relationship. And I’ll tell you that there are folks that I would have never thought would ever send me a lick of business that I’ve met and that have sent me a lot of stuff.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:41]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I am as the announcer mentioned, Steve Fretzin. I appreciate that you’re listening to the show and that you’re with me, you know, it’s all about helping you be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker. The key to that is putting your attention to business development, marketing, branding, it’s not something that just happens naturally anymore. I think when my dad was coming up as a lawyer in the 70s 80s, and 90s, you guys have heard me talk about my dad, I think on occasion, you know, he didn’t really have to do mock, he built relationships in the courtroom. And he just was a great lawyer. And that was it. And he wrote his ticket, and he retired at 65 to the day, and competition was no issue and it was boom done, career made. Now he’s down in Marco Island half the year soaking in the sun, enjoying himself. But for everyone else, and for how things are today, 2021, we need to really put our best foot forward. And we can’t just hope the world’s going to work the way it’s supposed to work. We need to put our efforts into business development and marketing. Someone who has done that in spades and is going to be a terrific guest for you to hear today is Mark Silverman. He’s a member of our Dykema, a national firm, and he’s going to tell us all about how he did it how he made it. So Hello, Mark. Hello, Steve.
Mark Silverman [01:54]
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Steve Fretzin [01:56]
Yeah, thanks for coming on the show. And I think I got you originally through our friend, our mutual friend Mark Segal. Is that correct?
Mark Silverman [02:02]
That’s right. He’s one of the best guys in the business. Awesome. Yeah, he’s
Steve Fretzin [02:05]
a past client of mine and a friend and he was kind enough to do my show. Right. When I first started, I’m coming up. This is I think, like my 100 and second episode or 103rd episode, and he was one of the first to help me get started in via supporter. So you know, shout out to mark Segal. But the other mark, and that’s you give us a little background on your practice and how you sort of came to be?
Mark Silverman [02:25]
Sure, well, in a nutshell, I’m a creditors rights lawyer. But more specifically, I co lead our commercial mortgage backed securities special servicer Practice Group, which is a niche within a niche within a niche. And so on enforcement actions on behalf of large securitized trusts, where we represent the special servicer, which is essentially the bank workout group and loan enforcement actions around the country.
Steve Fretzin [02:47]
Yeah, okay. Well, that’s very interesting, mostly to other lawyers that understand what you just said, No, I’m just kidding. But you know, talk about your path. How did you go from being attorney servicing other lawyers building up your experience? And then at what point did it pivot to, you know, hey, I think I probably need to get my own clients, or I probably need to start building things up.
Mark Silverman [03:09]
It started really early Steve. And so when I was a first year associate at a different firm, I found that I was being put into situations with servicers. And I wasn’t really sure what servicers meant. And so it was kind of learning from the very beginning of my career, what a servicer is, what they do, how they operate. And so that ended up being one of my first great relationships with with that particular servicer, when I went to an intermediary firm, before getting to DICOM, I was able to represent them as well. And then here at Dykema, we’ve been able to really just expand and grow in this space. And so it really started for me day one, understanding that much like you said, at the introduction, life isn’t as easy as it used to be. And if you want to be successful, you got to hustle, you got to grind. Obviously, learning the skills and understanding how to be a lawyer is a time consuming task. And I think that takes up a good chunk of your time and your first years of practice. But for me, at least, I never let the marketing and business development side of my practice suffer. And so it was always something that was important on my daily list of things to do on so try to not miss those meetings and miss those opportunities. And I think that was really important for me getting from associate to senior attorney to partner.
Steve Fretzin [04:17]
Yeah, and Were there particular things that you did or that you executed on that was sort of like you know, everybody’s got a different methods of how they grow business marketing, business development, branding, networking, all those different things. And were there one or two that you found work best for you?
Mark Silverman [04:35]
Yeah, I scour the news. And so I really think that understanding what your clients business is, is critical. And so making sure that you have news alerts, and so that you know exactly what’s going on when it’s happening. And so being able to have that in depth knowledge of what your clients are doing, allows you to really engage with them and talk about things that are really on their mind, and you’d be surprised at how often it is that I reach out based on an artist So I’ve read or something that piques my interest, and it ends up generating work. And so it doesn’t necessarily even have to be about their company, it could be something that’s more industry wide or industry specific. And then you just send a, you know, a soft reach out, Hey, I haven’t talked to you in a while I would love you know, to find some time to catch up on XYZ saw this thought of you thought this was interesting. And you could take it to the personal level, if you know somebody well enough, and you know that, you know, they like XYZ sports team, or XYZ, whatever, to spend the time and make that connection. And it’s important, and it’s sincere. And I think that’s the part of it that I think sets people apart is that you have to be sincere, you cannot do this, if you’re not going to really engage on a personal level, because folks will read right through it, and they’ll move on.
Steve Fretzin [05:46]
Yeah, and is that sort of the trigger to developing long lasting relationships is not only just, you know, helping them on the business side, but then crossing over to the personal side, as a friend, a social, what are some of the things that you focus on there, that kind of connects those two,
Mark Silverman [06:01]
very much. So you have to connect those dots, if you’re just their attorney, and you’re nothing more than there’s, you know, five others sitting on the same block as you in the city of Chicago that can do the exact same work with you. But if you can cross that barrier, and make that personal connection, it just amplifies it. And so it’s really, you know, it’s no different than what you learned in grade school, which is when you make friends, it’s you don’t only talk about yourself, you don’t only care about yourself, but you think about the other person, what’s the other person doing? What are their families doing? What makes them tick, what are their you know, their personal things that are going on in their lives and and understand it and care. It’s easier when that just part of your second nature. But if you do have find a way to be more empathetic and get there, you know, it’s worthwhile, it pays off.
Steve Fretzin [06:44]
Yeah, no doubt. And I find that to be very true, whether I’m networking and meeting someone for the first time, trying to make an introduction to connect them with someone valuable, or sending an article to someone that I know is into a particular subject, right art, music, sports, etc. You know, to let them know, I was thinking of them. And I don’t do maybe as much of that as I should. But occasionally something pops into my purview, or I’m looking up and I have read the news every day. So I’ve tried to put it together. So you’ve got the business side, you’ve got the personal side, you put them together? And is that mainly for clients? Is that for other lawyers is that across the board?
Mark Silverman [07:22]
Yeah. So I mean, it started, frankly, through organizations. And so I’m a big member of the turnaround Management Association here in Chicago, the Midwest chapter. And so that was a really good, easy place to start, because everyone is focused on restructuring and focused on distressed assets. And so that was a really good group of people, for me to network with, you convert those folks into true business friends, it’s beyond kind of just the Hey, I’ve seen you in an event before and you move on, these are people that will really go to bat for you. And I find that that really starts to pay off. It doesn’t happen within a day, within a year. But it takes a little bit of time. And it takes a little bit of seasoning and continued work on those relationships. And then it does pay dividends. And that group, by the way, is a mix of lawyers, bankers, restructuring officers, kind of accountants, anyone in that distressed purview. And so those have really become my core business friends, and they refer when they can. And again, it’s not an everyday occurrence, but when it happens, it’s great.
Steve Fretzin [08:23]
But when we drill down further on that mark, and there are people at the turnaround management that would say, Oh, I’m not getting very much out of it, or Oh, it’s just a bunch of lawyers or, you know, they’re just not able to see, you know, the forest through the trees or whatever the thing is, what are you doing differently, so that you are getting value are developing those strategic partnerships. In a group like that,
Mark Silverman [08:46]
it’s follow up, follow through and investing your time. And it’s really I mean, those are the critical points. For me, if you go to an event, and you’re not following up, you just went to an event that was just in my view, that was just time that you just spent. And so rather than investing that time, which is when you go to the event, you invest by following up, and then following through by taking them up on an in person meeting where you can really talk for a half hour 45 minutes, one on one, and whether that’s lunch, drinks, coffee, whatever the medium is, that’s the way to do it. And then you get to know one another. And so you become friends, you might meet their spouse, you might meet their kids, you know, you might otherwise engage on a more interpersonal level. And then guess what, when they have issues that come up in the attorney context, if they have a conflict, there’s another reason why their firm can’t do it. You might be their first call, or second call and I’m okay with that too. As long as I get the call, I’m not too concerned what the order is. But it’s that follow through that really matters.
Steve Fretzin [09:45]
And I think that’s probably the gap that we’re gonna find separates the successful business developers from the less than successful business developers is organization interest, first of all, and then organization And to follow through because we all can go out and meet people. But to set those meetings to follow through to continue the relationship beyond the initial meeting, is really what I think you’re saying is the trick. And how do you do that to make sure that the relationships you start, continue down that positive path?
Mark Silverman [10:17]
Sure. Well, the pre pandemic way was that on the train, or in the Uber home from whatever the event was, I would start my initial round of thanks, great to meet you emails. And those are pretty simple. It was great to see you or meet you tonight. And I’d love to continue the discussion to have some time over the next couple of weeks to jump on a call and keep it simple post pandemic, it was, you know, tougher use of your calendar became very important. It was okay, we just had this big zoom thing. And I knew few minutes to decompress from being on Zoom for this long a week from now, let me follow up with XYZ person, okay, two weeks from now, let me follow up with a different person. And so really using my calendar, not only to dock important dates for clients, and for cases, but also just to make sure that I’m keeping myself accountable, to continue to follow up and follow through, I think pre pandemic, I probably didn’t do that as much. But during 2020, and now into 2021, I’m finding it’s a very useful tool.
Steve Fretzin [11:12]
Yeah, and I would add something to it. And this is not for everybody, but I teach my clients this, and this seems to work pretty well. That the reality is, is that when you’re in a networking group or association, that not everyone is a good fit. And to say that you’re going to spend time with every single person in every group that you’re in, it is not happening. So what I truly try to instill in them as the ability to qualify, who are the best strategic partners that make the most sense, the most logical sense for you to keep involved with? And there’s a number of qualifiers that I would line up, including who has the greatest opportunity to refer you, who do you like, Who do you trust, who has a big network to draw from, and who’s actually interested in sharing in that relationship in a responsible and interested way? And so I think, you know, that’s really important, because if you try to network with everybody and stay in touch with everybody, I think you’re gonna set yourself up to fail. So is that something that you found works is to sort of qualify people into your world? And when we disqualify, that doesn’t mean, we hate people or that we, you know, tell them so? Right, I think it means we just move them aside, because they’re not really as strategic as the other people that they know the people that you’re finding.
Mark Silverman [12:19]
Yeah, I would say yes, and no, I think I intend to do that. And I think that’s always floating in the back of my mind. But I think in practice, it’s who you gel with, and who you can be authentic with, and who can really authentically forge that relationship. And I’ll tell you that there are folks that I would have never thought would ever send me a lick of business that I’ve met, and that have sent me a lot of stuff. And so it’s been hit or miss. And if those if I had categorized those relationships in a different bucket, I may not have stayed in touch as well. And so I do find that it’s a lot of communication, but it’s small communication. And it just allows you to stay in touch the other big piece, and sure, we’ll get there at some point is LinkedIn. And so LinkedIn has always been a strong tool for me, and something that I’ve used as part of my marketing and business development plan. But I’d say that that’s expedited significantly over the last four years, maybe three years, and I’ve made a, you know, a conscious effort to increase my utilization of LinkedIn. And that paid off huge and 2020. And it continues to pay off and folks are calling, they’re talking to me when I see him in person, about whatever I’ve posted. And even the the quick text message from a client that says, hey, great Post, thanks for sharing can start, you know, discussion over when we’re gonna go get coffee next, or if we’re gonna go get drinks or something, and then you can continue to move from there. And so in my view, LinkedIn is another arrow in your quiver to help make those relationships last, and to help stay top of mind with folks so that you can continue to be there. And I’m using air quotes on be there, you can continue to be there when issues pop up.
Steve Fretzin [13:56]
Yes, you have a number of, as you said, you know, arrows in your quiver, and one of them is effective networking and development of strategic partners, long lasting relationships, people that are going to be able to refer and add value for you, and vice versa ongoing. And then there’s this other channel, right in LinkedIn where we can keep in touch, we can comment on people’s posts, we can post our own content, build our own personal brand, along with the firm, or in addition to the firm branding. That’s you. And at the end of the day, even if you’re at a big firm, you know, you’re the one that used to be front and center. And so LinkedIn is a great tool for that. Are there particular strategies that you use when you’re on LinkedIn to get traction? Yeah,
Mark Silverman [14:38]
very much. So being authentic, if there’s a theme on this being authentic. And so I use humor, I use all of those tools that I’m able to use, and I think that creates better engagement. And if that means being a little sarcastic, if that means whatever is authentic to you. You can’t be a different person on LinkedIn. It just doesn’t play and also Being consistent and knowledgeable about a particular area or a particular group of areas, depending on what your practice might be, and staying in that lane. It’s always great to post about accomplishments and all that stuff. But that’s kind of a one hit thing. But instead, for me, I posted on creditors rights, bankruptcy restructuring and CMBS issues with the occasional outlier, if there’s something that’s really meaningful, that could add value, or if one of my partners does something that I think is really impressive, and I want my network to see it to help cross market, those would be exceptions to the rule of staying in my lane, but then making sure that I’m creative with hashtags, using that only the ones that I think would actually be searchable from a search optimization standpoint, but also ones that are funny. I mean, when there were a lot of the music related bankruptcies, I’m a huge music guy. And so come up with song lyrics or song titles that fit within the bankruptcy case. So Guitar Center, you know, walk this way right into bankruptcy or something. Like, oh, that’s mark, he’s funny still, and he’s funny online, that’s good. So we need that
Steve Fretzin [16:01]
because you know, a lot of there’s a lot of dry stuff, there’s a lot of self promotion and things that people just gloss over. And then when they read something authentic, and they read something funny, or see something where you took in a, you know, a funny image and put it into a business context. But in a funny way, like, that all adds up. And again, at the end of the day, you’re building this brand, where all these relationships can see you on a regular basis and see your humor and your authenticity. And it’s that top of mind that lawyers are missing the boat on when they don’t get active and social media. And listen, there’s some social media that that everyone hates. There’s something about social media that everyone hates, it’s different, you know, could be Instagram, it could be, you know, something about Instagram, it could be something about Facebook, and LinkedIn too. And so I think, but for lawyers that are in business, doing business, networking, and that are looking to connect with other business professionals, I think if you’re avoiding LinkedIn, you’re probably missing a part of the big picture.
Mark Silverman [16:55]
Oh, for sure. And I think it’s really important for younger folks that are just coming up to start dipping your toe in that water soon. And don’t be afraid of it. And it’s okay to post content. It’s okay to not create the content that you’re posting, but read it and make sure that it says what you’re saying it says and make sure that doesn’t say anything that you wish it didn’t say, so that you don’t run into any traps there. But it’s worth doing. And it’s worth starting with, you know, one a week. And if you don’t want to do that one a month, and then kind of go in from there. I found lately that polls are really helpful. And I’m pretty sure engagement.
Steve Fretzin [17:29]
Yep. I mean that How easy do you want to make your life? You ask a question, you set it up, you ask a question, and you write it and you put a poll of for answers. And you’re out. Like how long did that take? I don’t two three minutes.
Mark Silverman [17:41]
Yeah, I joked with I did a presentation internally for our junior and mid level associates. And I did one on a Saturday where I was holding my one and a half year old son in one arm, I had a cup of coffee in the other, and I reshuffled everything so that I could also type the full out with my other hand, it took, you know, four minutes, maybe yeah, and huge engagement. And it was a great Saturday Morning Post, which is generally something I avoid. But in that particular circumstance, the world was just coming back alive after vaccines. And so it was, hey, what sector of the real estate market do you think is going to be impacted most significantly towards the end of 2020. And there was huge engagement 1000s of views more than I’ve ever received. I couldn’t quite put my finger on why, but it was significant enough to me to go, hey, you know, this was pretty easy. I was able to be a dad, I was able to enjoy my Saturday, my morning cup of coffee, and I still was able to get my few minutes of marketing in and see that reverberate around on LinkedIn. And you know, it’s good, those are good wins. And those are things that keep you going and keep you focused on the fact that what you’re doing works, keep doing it.
Steve Fretzin [18:43]
It is sometimes hard to know what’s going to hit and what’s not going to hit. But I think mostly it’s about engagement, if you can, I mean, there’s a word social in social media for a reason. So if you could get other people active in the poll, in the comment in the rant, whatever it is that you’re posting, something that people may not do enough of if you’re looking to promote something, and you name a couple people write a couple people that are relevant to that post. So like today, I posted something about I’m a member of pro advisors, I run the North Shore group of providers. Have you ever heard of providers? I haven’t. Yeah, it’s so it’s 7000 member national exchange. It’s phenomenal. And the people that are in it are all you know, b2b. It’s all professionals. I run the North Shore group here in Chicago. And I just said, you know, hey, we just had a really successful meeting, lots of engagement. And just in the last in this morning, I already connected like eight people, and I named those eight people in the posts. Now, I didn’t have to name those eight people. But by doing so what happens is it generates all the traction of those people seeing that I posted them their network, see their name and may see that post, then it goes out exponentially. And I’m not saying to do that, you know, just haphazardly a randomly made sense to do that. But that’s just one example like your hashtags of getting creative in your posting To derive that engagement.
Mark Silverman [20:01]
Exactly. I think for lawyers, for me at least I tried to avoid tagging folks, unless they’re aware of it. The last monitored have, you know, some clients have associated with your post or anything like that. So I’m always pretty careful about that. But I think it’s great. I mean, when we’ve gone to large events, pre pandemic, and somebody posts a photo, and then tags, everybody, you know, tags everyone, not the Facebook tag. But otherwise, it can be a lot more efficient. Getting people’s eyeballs on that thing.
Steve Fretzin [20:30]
Yeah. So obviously, pick your battles and pick your people that names it could be problematic, it could be fine. But again, if you’re looking for engagement, there’s a number of sort of tricks and tips and things that you can do to try to drive it, whether that’s putting a poll up, whether that’s naming people hashtags, you know, there’s all different ways of doing it. And I think it’s just important for lawyers to start, not only educate themselves on how not only to post but what to post and then how to post to get the most traction. And that’s something that not many people are talking about, but we are so yeah,
Mark Silverman [21:00]
no, it’s I mean, there’s a reason why I see your posts when I log in every day. There’s a reason why I see Mark Siegel’s, it’s understanding and working with LinkedIn. And it’s really, like you said earlier to trial and error. If this worked, this didn’t work. And so don’t do that again. And I found that even where you put links for articles can impact your views and impact the engagement that you’re seeing. And does it generate business directly from a LinkedIn post? No, not necessarily. But it goes back to this keeping you top of mind, which then makes the phone rang. And if the phone rings, regardless of how it rings, that’s good. And I think I put that in the active marketing category, because you’re actively out there looking for work and staying top of mind with folks. And then that comes back around. And so people will get in touch with you.
Steve Fretzin [21:49]
And I think something we’re discussing, and I just want to put a finer point on it is not everything works for everybody. However, you got to pick your poison, you have to figure out. Alright, I’m going to join this group, this association. Alright, that’s one thing now I’ve got post on LinkedIn. Right now I’m doing two things. Now I’m going to internally networking cross market with my partners. Okay, now I’ve got three things. Well, now you have three different buckets between branding, marketing and business development, that’s going to get you so much further. And it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. But it’s going to get you so much further than just saying, Oh, I’m just going to attend these groups, or I’m just going to do one thing. And again, if that works for you, great, but it’s not building the bigger picture. I mean, every business has multiple arms and channels of how they’re doing business development and marketing. And I don’t think lawyers should look at their business any different. Right? And
Mark Silverman [22:37]
if you want to be 65, and retired in Marco Island, I think spending the time to diversify your approach to marketing is a worthy investment.
Steve Fretzin [22:45]
Yeah, no doubt. And just in kind of wrapping up in sort of our final discussion, is there anything else that you would tell lawyers coming out of law school or lawyers that are maybe in their first three years of practice? Yes, become a great lawyer. That’s job one. But once that’s in place, then what are you telling them about their careers about what they need to do?
Mark Silverman [23:04]
Invest in good mentors, and make sure that you’re employing the same things that we’ve talked about here with your mentor, and know that following up following through or putting something in the calendar, staying with them, and making sure that it’s a mutually beneficial relationship for you and your mentor, that’s the way to do this. This is a game that you shouldn’t play by yourself, you should play with adult supervision, as I always, but it’s and it works. And I think, again, you have a person with him to market. And so if that person is going to bring you to events, bring you go to meetings and introduce you to their network that just helps marinate this said it goes a little quicker. And so everyone’s not fortunate enough to have good mentors. I’ve been very fortunate in my career. And I’ve found excellent mentors, in both within my firms and also outside of my firms that have been great at making connections much like this, you know, getting me sittings with the right kinds of people and with folks that can add something to my practice. And so I think that’s a really good thing to start day, one minute one of being a lawyer and to keep doing it, and then to pivot those skills to external clients when it’s appropriate.
Steve Fretzin [24:14]
Just to put an analogy with it on you know, if you want to become a great guitar player, a great chef, a great athlete in some sport a great you know, I’m 51 Oh, I want to become a great golfer, okay. That takes effort that takes time that takes you know, patience and perseverance to do it. And in business development, it’s no different. So whether you’re reading, studying, watching, listening, taking in content as a way to take notes and get your mind in the right place, or start taking action on things, that’s fine, to mark your point, you know, getting a mentor at your firm or some other lawyer to help you because they’ve done it and they can kind of walk you through how to do it, to talking to me and other coaches and other professionals in the industry that do this every day. But do something don’t just sit and do the work that You’re being handed and expect that you’re going to have a long career that’s not going to have any hiccups. Because it’s just not the reality of the world we’re in anymore. And can’t,
Mark Silverman [25:06]
you’ve got to not only do the work, but you got to put in the time on the other end. Otherwise, you end up in a bad spot. And it’s something that I’m sure a lot of your clients come to you and they’re in that spot and less than ideal, but I feel very fortunate. And I’m glad I’ve done a lot of this stuff. And does it all work? No. But it’s very much trial and error. And eventually you get into the swing of things and things start to fall in place. And you realize the light bulb clicks and you go, Oh, okay, this is working. This makes sense. Now I can rinse and repeat and do this on a larger scale.
Steve Fretzin [25:36]
Yeah, well, Mark, listen, I appreciate you taking the time and sharing your wisdom with my audience. And, again, if you’re listening, and you haven’t thought a couple things through that Mark shared or that I’ve shared and written something down, or at least made it on your head, you know, probably not a great idea. But at the end of the day, you know, you’re gonna take what you’re gonna get, the fact that you’re listening to show is probably, you know, a good sign that you’re interested in business development, marketing, etc. And now it’s about taking action and following some of the things that Mark shared, but just want to thank you again for being on the show and taking your valuable time to help my audience. You thanks for including me in this. I
Mark Silverman [26:09]
really appreciate it. Yeah, it’s my
Steve Fretzin [26:11]
pleasure, man. Anytime. And listen, everybody just want to thank you for spending some time if you liked the show, and you feel like it’s helpful, you know, free to share it like it. Give me five stars, whatever it is that people do with social media and podcast platforms. I don’t know what you’re listening on my website or your phone. But you know, help us out say some kind words. Appreciate it. And again, focus on being that lawyer, someone that’s confident, organized and a skilled Rainmaker, that’s going to make all the difference in your longevity of your career. Alright, everybody, take care be safe be well.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notice