In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Nicole Clark discuss:
- Better utilizing the data that you have access to.
- Challenges lawyers have when presenting pitches.
- Don’t assume you can’t access data just because it wasn’t previously accessible.
- Asking questions, gathering data, and understanding insights.
- You need to understand the goals in relation to the data of what the client is facing in order to give great advice.
- Set your expectations with the client and help them to understand what they are likely to expect.
- There is a lot involved in the context of cases. Having insight and information makes it make or break for a client to believe you are the right attorney for them.
- More and more information is becoming available from state courts that was not available 5 or 10 years ago.
“If you go in prepared with information, you’re going to actually feel like you can help your client and that carries across when you feel like you can really be helpful, and you’re matched to be able to bring value to them.” — Nicole Clark
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Connect with Steve Fretzin:
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
trellis, client, lawyers, data, judge, case, information, settlement, pitch, litigation, check, business, sued, understand, people, questions, verdicts, attorneys, started, nice
Narrator, Steve Fretzin, Nicole Clark
Nicole Clark [00:00]
But part of it is just the education of it. It’s not data that is, you know, part of a black box anymore, you can actually get in there and find out information. And if that’s the case, then you should because other folks are going to be having access to data and you don’t want to be on the other end of you know, unilateral access to information and knowledge.
You’re listening to be that lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:47]
Hey, everybody, welcome to be that lawyer. I hope you’re having a lovely day today. Well, listen, it is another day being a lawyer trying to make it happen right being that lawyer someone who’s confident organized in a skilled Rainmaker, it isn’t easy. You’ve got the billable hour, you’ve got the pressures from your clients, you’ve got the pressures from your partners, it’s all coming coming down to, you know, what are you going to do today and tomorrow to make the you know, make things work and get that balance and control that you’re looking for? My job is to continually find great guests that are going to help improve your life and make you a stronger, better lawyer and have the best life possible. And today is no different. I’ve got a great guest. It’s Nicole Clark, she is the co founder and CEO of trellis. And before she says hello or anything, I’m going to jump in with the quote of the day and this quote I picked up online but more so I read a Forbes interview with Nicole, and she likes underdogs. So here’s an underdog quote. It’s by Malcolm Gladwell. The fact of being an underdog changes people in ways that we often fail to appreciate. It opens doors and creates opportunities and enlightens and permits things that might otherwise have seemed unthinkable. And for me, I don’t know most of my life, I’ve felt like an underdog and that I’ve always been trying to excel in that I know if I’m just being hard on myself, but I always feel like I I’m never quite where I want to be I’m always trying to reach to the next level. Nicole, before we get into the meat and potatoes on your background, or you hear that quote? What is that? What does that kind of mean to you? Or what do you think of when I and I’m happy to read it again, if you’d like?
Nicole Clark [02:21]
No, I actually really, really liked that quote, I think that it makes me think of all of the things that actually create grit and a person that makes you able to overcome. And I think that we overlook all of those sort of life experiences that led us to actually be strong enough to persevere through what can be difficult, which is life.
Steve Fretzin [02:47]
Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, we’re in a day and age where you know, as a parent, we try to we call it helicopter parenting, or we call it bulldozing parenting, and I tell my wife on a regular basis when my son is having a hard time I look at her and I say good. And she says, Oh, yeah, okay, I guess that makes sense. Because you are no, I know. It’s hard. It’s hard. But I I push her to let him fail. Because he’s one of these these kids that just will not take advice. He walked it’s freezing in Chicago, he would not walk he would not take a coat to the bus. Yeah. And I said, I said, Good. Go freeze. And tomorrow, you’re gonna take a coat, and it’s
Nicole Clark [03:25]
got his female counterpart. So I Okay. All right. We’re on the same
Steve Fretzin [03:29]
page with that. All right. I very good. So So let’s, let’s go back to the beginning. And if you wouldn’t mind just sharing a little bit about your background and leading up to starting and founding trellis.
Nicole Clark [03:41]
Sure. So starting out, went to law school graduated, basically during the recession when there was no jobs. And so took took a job in basically bankruptcy and foreclosure litigation originally, which was popping up back then, unfortunately, and really wasn’t happy, continued on as a litigator at a variety of firms sort of continued to jump to a few different firms always in litigation, and ended up for the majority of my practice in Labor and Employment class action wage and hour work. And I was at State Trial Court constantly. And I just couldn’t believe how difficult it was to access information at the state trial court level. I just couldn’t believe that sort of, you know, we would we would get assigned a judge and we would send around an email asking our colleagues if they had any info on the judge. And here we were an industry with massive resources, massive data, and we’re sourcing anecdotes from each other. And so that was sort of the the the impetus where I started to really think about how can how can we better utilize data, and the true origin was I was writing an MSJ one night I was complaining to a colleague And it was a really complicated issue. I didn’t know the judge, I wasn’t sure how to structure the motion. And he said he thought he had appeared before the same judge in the past. And we went, and we checked in the file, and there was a PDF that was on my issue on by my judge. And it basically just laid out, you know, my outline of exactly how to write the motion, that case law to use. And for me, that was really the sort of lightbulb moment of how was it possible that I didn’t have this to research from the start? Like, why are we all practicing in a trial court, and yet, we’re only using Court of Appeals data to make strategic decisions, when everyone knows that the judge resigned to matters a lot, right? Judges are fallible, they’re different, and they make different decisions. And so for me, what we what we started doing originally was I complained to the only software developer I knew, and I said, there is this massive, untapped dataset that has incredibly valuable information. And we started with just collecting the some of the data from the courts, I was appearing, and most often, it was basically my own little secret weapon. And I continued to practice for a couple of years. And during that time, I went on to win every single motion that I had for those two years. And for me, that was what gave me the courage to say, this data is valuable. If it’s valuable to me, as a litigator. It’ll be valuable to other litigators, and how can we really grow and bring this to other lawyers?
Steve Fretzin [06:38]
Yeah. So it’s the old story of I’ve got a problem, everyone probably has the same problem, or does and why isn’t somebody solve it? And then you stepped up and did? Correct. We all just need a good resource, like a software developer in our corner or somebody who can like you know, invent stuff, right? And then we’d all we’d all
Nicole Clark [06:57]
tell you, I think of them a little bit as magicians. Yeah, it’s really what I’ve come to find out in in software is almost anything’s possible. You just have to sort of figure out what you want it to do. And someone can code that and make that it’s not me, I can’t code it. But I can definitely come up with the idea of what would be a better way to do something and have someone who’s super knowledgeable in that area. Talk to me about what’s possible.
Steve Fretzin [07:22]
Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And so tell tell everybody a little bit about what trellis does then specifically?
Nicole Clark [07:28]
Sure. So if you think about sometimes I like to say we’re sort of the Google for the state trial court system. Or another way to think of us would be the way that pacer sort of lays on top of federal trial court data makes it searchable one system across the nation. That’s really what trellis does at the state trial court level. So all of your what would otherwise be independent, fragmented county courts, that are incredibly difficult to access information from where you need to know a docket number in order to try to pull any information, what we do, we have one unified system, which aggregates that data across the nation, and takes away any of the limitations of I need to know a case number instead, let’s look up a specific legal issue. Now let’s look up your judge and that legal issue have have they decided on that before? That’s something you should know from the start. And being able to really just utilize the data, think if if you could strategically research the state trial court system. That’s really what trellis does. It lets you think about how to be proactive and strategic. And then you’re almost only limited by the way you can think about how to utilize the
Steve Fretzin [08:32]
data. And so let’s move into what I wanted to talk about, you know, beyond beyond this, it’s how trellis and what you kind of, you know, talk about to lawyers on a regular basis, how does this then improve their ability to pitch or present to get the business and let’s talk before we get into the solutions? Let’s talk about what are the additional challenges that lawyers have around preparing for, let’s say pitches to organizations, General Counsel CEOs that are looking that have litigation needs?
Nicole Clark [09:04]
Well, right now, and historically, especially if we’re talking about the the state trial court system, it has been impossible to sort of think of it as a black box up until now, right? So if you couldn’t find information about what was actually going on in the system, and you are going to pitch a client, you’re going to be disadvantaged because you don’t know what what that business is actually facing, what their business needs are. So you’re you’re walking in and you don’t exactly even know how to position yourself if you don’t have some of the information. So it’s basically the difference between being able to be I have sort of, you know, data, data backed information and strategies to the client, even going so far as when is the right time to reach out and touch new clients, right? When is the time to go back to say, hey, we’re still thinking about you and being able to time that when Hey, they actually have a need, right? An ad it’s a great time to reach out to them. So it’s the difference between being blind and, and having data to be able to help you be strategic and
Steve Fretzin [10:07]
how you pitch. Gotcha, gotcha. And something that I, you know, teach on a regular basis is, you know, how important it is for lawyers before they pitch to go in and do a discovery to do to ask more questions to really not present until you’ve diagnosed, right? And get all that information? And how does having this information even ahead of time, impact their ability to ask questions and and be more prepared from that perspective,
Nicole Clark [10:34]
it’s a good point. And the actual speaking with a client and figuring out their goals is a very important repeat. So it’s not just you simply have the data and then bam, you’ve got it all solved. Basically, if you’re you’re able to let’s just talk about well, we’ll use Uber as an example bed, big company that gets sued a lot, right? So if you were going into pitch Uber, you want to first run a search for them, let’s see where they’re getting sued across the nation. What venues what judges? Are they in front of now? Can you give us some insight on those judges? So that they feel like you’ve got some experience? How about generally information on on the venues, the case types, the legal issues, what you’re trying to do is an overall assessment of figuring out sort of where were the pain points or the client right now? And how can you go in, and then be prepared to think about ahead of time, why you’re positioned to be able to help them on X, pain point. And obviously, being able to have more data, you’re going to speak to them in a way that they understand speak to their business needs, and then be able to use your own experience to show why Hey, X case type is what I focus in before this judge is where I have experience, and you’re not going to know that if you don’t have a data ahead of time.
Steve Fretzin [11:52]
So you’re getting you’re getting information directly from the prospective client, for example, about their their issue and litigation and their needs. And then on top of that, you’ve got this back end information through trellis and other resources that are going to help you just have a more robust meeting and be able to talk intelligently about what’s going on, like more full circle.
Nicole Clark [12:14]
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. And and the actually aligning with a client, let’s say you you think you know what their issues are, right? They haven’t they have X case type that they’re fighting all over the place. It’s also important, that human element of what you’re talking about when you go in and say and find out exactly what their goals are. And I think that’s one thing that lawyers struggle with a lot is, we may have the sort of legal merits of the case in mind, which are not necessarily the business’s goals they have may have very different objectives for why they need to make this go away, or why they’re willing to take it to the end. And so understanding the goals in relation to understanding sort of the data of exactly what they’re facing and being able to give strategic advice, that’s the combination that really wins clients over, you know,
Steve Fretzin [12:58]
another piece of that that really is interesting. If I’m taking this the wrong way, you’ll let me know. But if you have information about the way the judge has handled him or herself in the past, and you could that might help you set better expectations about the litigation that’s occurring, so that the client sort of knows what, at least to some degree what might happen before even happens.
Nicole Clark [13:21]
You’re absolutely right. It’s a huge element of it. It’s a super common element. One of the things that’s important, let’s say they’re in front of a terrible judge, and they’re really in trouble. Well, worst case scenario, let them know that and now you’ve set the clients expectations up front, if things don’t go well, they’re expecting it, you’re not managing their expectations on the back end. Nobody wants to do that. That’s not great. But instead, if you are successful, it’s even better, right? It’s very, you have a you have a better relationship with the client. But yes, being able to set expectations, and that’s from everything to how to judge rules on specific motions to how long cases sit before them how busy this judges docket is write all of that information to be able to really help to set their expectations, including, can you look up and see, let’s say settlements or verdicts in similar cases, and you give a broad range of exposure. Nobody wants to face it. It’s a you know, oftentimes, it’s not great, but it helps to make the business decisions of what potential settlement strategy should look like.
Steve Fretzin [14:23]
Yeah, do you have a specific example or to have of firsthand experience or have a client of yours that has had this work in their to their advantage? Certainly in
Nicole Clark [14:35]
in the the settlement strategy, so I can tell you where it were commonly used in class action cases. What’s special about class action cases and the court system is that the settlements have to be approved by the court for notice requirements for constitutional notice requirements, which means what would otherwise be private settlement data is all public so you can see exactly what similar cases have settled for including not all only sort of broad settlement and what went to the class, and obviously finding out information about whether there’s similarities between that and your case. But what actually went to attorneys fees, what was the makeup of how the settlement broke down, because very often, whether you’re on the plaintiff side, and you need to value the case and understand what your fees are worth, or you’re on the defendants side, and you need to understand what’s the nut, you need to crack to make sure these cases are often driven by plaintiffs fees is hugely valuable in understanding how to think about those cases. I have other examples into in ways to get at settlement strategy that aren’t class actions, that or otherwise hidden information as well. But that’s one of my favorites, because it’s, you know, high, high dollar, high impact cases where you can make a really big difference, right? And
Steve Fretzin [15:47]
what are some of the other things that you advise lawyers on how to use trellis to help with pitches to help make their meetings more robust?
Nicole Clark [15:55]
So one of the things I talked about a little bit was just timing for your client, right? Let’s say you’ve been following a particular client for a year or so you met them a couple times, you want to just keep reaching out when you’ve got information that could be valuable for them, being able to sort of see where they are in any litigation that they’re facing right now is twofold. One, you can basically dig into their current counsel, if it’s not you, who’s representing them right now. What are what are they doing? Like? What’s their strategy? How long were they taking in cases? Did they win or lose a big motion recently, if they lost a great time to reach out to the client to say, hey, we’re here, this is why we think we can help. So one of the things is assessing not only the client, but also who is a client had represented in the past? And how can you think about that to your advantage when you’re pitching a
Steve Fretzin [16:46]
client? Yeah, that’s really interesting. Let’s take a step back, because I’m just curious. And I know there’s different, you know, ARDC guidelines in different states and whatnot. But there are attorneys who are getting the docket of the of the lawsuits that are being filed and reaching out proactively to those companies to say, hey, you know, I see that you’ve been sued, you may need some good representation, I might be a good fit, blah, blah, blah. And I’m wondering if trellis would be like, like another sort of advantage for them to say, you know, I know this judge really well, or I know, the data, the details on this judge and have some thoughts for you is this is this a potential prospecting opportunity as well?
Nicole Clark [17:27]
Definitely. So one of one of the highly utilized aspects of our site is alerts, which basically means any any sophisticated search that you can run, you can set yourself an alert for and we function like Google Alerts where you’re getting email each morning with anything that triggered your alert from the day before. So let’s say you were tracking a specific company, and you just want to know, as they’re getting sued. Now, there are some other platforms that do basically they’ll notify you so you can notify clients if there’s a complaint against them. That’s great. And that’s definitely helpful. But what’s even more helpful is actually having insight. Okay, what does that actually mean? What is this case about? Let’s understand the underlying complaint? Has this client faced this type of litigation before? How have other clients similar to them handle that? So being able to have the context, there’s so much involved in the context of cases that makes it a bigger break for the client to actually believe that you’re the right attorney for them? So having the context, who’s the judge? What’s the venue? What have other lawyers done similar to this and being able to just see, full picture right full context, not simply you’ve been sued, but you’ve been sued? And here’s what we think, is a great strategy. But first, let’s check in with you. What are your
Steve Fretzin [18:40]
goals? Yeah, just to just to an aside, I mean, I mentioned earlier that, that a big part of what I work with lawyers on every day, is what I call sales pre selling. And the idea that lawyers say I’m gonna go on a pitch meeting, or I’m gonna go pitch this client. It, there’s a, there’s a connotation around, you know, just going in and sort of, here’s why we’re so great. And here’s what we do. And here’s, and it’s just talking in selling, right? And I’m like the opposite. I want to teach lawyers how to not sell how to really come in prepared and ask better questions. And I’m, I know, we kind of covered that. But I just feel like are there other areas of questioning that they should be focusing on to get maybe to the clients or the prospective clients pain or problem or the potential fears they’re having?
Nicole Clark [19:28]
It’s a good question. I think it’s going to depend on the specific example. I tend to agree with you that going in with a hard sell is, you know, clients have a lot going on and the hard sell isn’t going to necessarily be something but being able to actually help them understand, like, why the why behind why other matters have gone well or not, behind whatever they’re facing is going to be helpful. I think helping them understand sort of the questions would be like, What? What is it that that your goal would be? What are your needs here? What would be a good outcome? Right? It’s not always the same, I think I see that often we see that as a business with our own lawyers, right? That there’s an expectation of that the best outcome is a sort of win on the merits. And that’s not necessarily the case, businesses have all kinds of needs that are behind the scenes. So really getting in there and trying to understand what the business’s needs are mapped to, how can you actually help if you go in prepared with information, you’re going to actually feel like you can help them and that that carries across when you feel like you can really be helpful, and you’re, you know, you’re matched to be able to bring value to them. That’s something that comes across and feels it’s not a it’s not a hard sell, it’s you actually knowing like it is in your interest, because I’m going to be helpful here. I want to make your life easier?
Steve Fretzin [20:55]
Well, I think it just comes back to the more information you have the better questions you can ask. So if you know that they’ve had trouble with certain judges or certain verdicts in the past, and you know, kind of what’s coming up, you know, you might be able to ask them a question about how they felt about previous verdicts or previous lawsuits and how they’ve gone. And it may be that it actually might take them away from their current law firm, not that we’re always trying to steal business away from other lawyers. But the reality is, if they’re unhappy or got a bad verdict, and the lawyer wasn’t doing everything in his or power to, to manage that, you know, that that scenario, maybe they would be more likely to to, you know, jump ship.
Nicole Clark [21:35]
I do think that happens more often than we think where clients stick with certain law firms simply because the relationship has been there, despite the fact that service may have waned in some amount of time. And yes, it definitely is, it’s really, you know, you want to go in where you actually think you can add value, right? And those that you’re going to be able to do that by understanding the case by understanding the client better, and then focusing your attention on those pitch meetings, not a sort of overgeneralize shotgun approach.
Steve Fretzin [22:05]
Yeah. Really, really interesting stuff. So people that don’t have trellis I mean, I really don’t understand why someone wouldn’t if it’s giving all this content, and they’re dealing in the state courts, why wouldn’t they do? Why wouldn’t they want this type of information?
Nicole Clark [22:20]
So I think we’re still dealing with the fact that because this data has been inaccessible for so long, there is a blanket assumption that it’s just data that you can’t get. And so part of it is just the education process. Like, look, we have come a long way, courts that were entirely offline 510 years ago, now have E filing and records are digital. So the data is there, the technology is there now. So now that both of those things are there, and it’s not cost prohibitive, it’s time, but part of it is just the education of it, it’s not data that is, you know, part of a black box anymore, you can actually get in there and find out information. And if that’s the case, then you should, because other folks are going to be having access to data and you don’t want to be on the other end of you know, unilateral access to information and knowledge.
Steve Fretzin [23:12]
Right. And so what’s the model then? Is it is it for trellis and how people access it? Yeah, so
Nicole Clark [23:17]
it’s, it’s a monthly subscription. Basically, think of it as as your Lexus or Westlaw, except rather than your court of appeals data. It is that really strategic practical information, what is my opposing counsel done all the way down to using us as a brief bank, right, 90 million file documents, let’s pull something that not only is close, but that one in the past. And then we don’t charge by by seat, we want you to have as many folks on at your firm that makes sense if it support staff, if it’s other attorneys, where’s sort of an overall usage model so you go into usage here you can start out small if it’s something that’s super valuable, you can move up and if not, we we hope to help even you know in the in the smaller cases
Steve Fretzin [23:59]
will really interesting tool and I love that you that you found a problem solve the problem. And now our marketing to you know, help people understand and educate people about that this problem has a solution. And that’s really the most important part right? Any so if people want to get in touch with you to actually you know, get the subscription or they have questions for you directly, how do they reach you?
Nicole Clark [24:22]
Absolutely. So by by all means anyone can reach out to me directly I am Nicole at trellis dot law. If you want to check out trellis you can do so at just trellis dot law fellas dot law slash search get in there is basically start you out premium free trial. Try it out for yourself. We find that we create advocates by the attorneys getting in there and using the product themselves. You guys know what’s valuable for you what’s going to be helpful to your practice. So we love being able to simply have the user themselves determine that yes, this date is valuable. It’s going to help me and then it makes sense for everybody.
Steve Fretzin [24:59]
I love it. I think it’s great. And I appreciate it. Let’s let’s take a few minutes and wrap up with the three best of and I think people like this. I know I do, because I want to travel around the world now to go to all these great restaurants in places where people are telling me to go. So you’re in LA, and you finally got some rain, right? Yeah, yeah.
Nicole Clark [25:18]
One day, one day
Steve Fretzin [25:20]
right now you’re back to dry again. Yeah. So I’m coming out to visit you want to take me out to the greatest place, I’ll pay. Where are we going?
Nicole Clark [25:28]
Okay, so I’m gonna be honest and say I am not your prototypical la person. So you’re almost anyone on my team would answer this question in a way that probably makes better sense for most people, but I’m going to tell you mine. Okay, guys, this is just so I love a good taco truck. Just honestly, LA is the Mexican food is amazing. Here. I’ve gone I lived on the East Coast for a while and man was that rough? So yes, finding and they’re they’re some in a few different areas, but just a good old fashioned taco truck can be really outstanding here.
Steve Fretzin [26:03]
Okay, nice. Nice. Well, I don’t know that that’s where we’re gonna go.
Nicole Clark [26:06]
I don’t I don’t necessarily recommend it. If you’re not me, but
Steve Fretzin [26:09]
I would do I would do I don’t know. Like if there’s a taco or like a bunch of trucks together and you wanted to like go hit up like a bunch of different like try?
Nicole Clark [26:19]
lines. The Yeah, the food truck game here is pretty strong.
Steve Fretzin [26:23]
Okay, okay. I’m a big fan of that movie chef with Who’s that guy in there from the Marvel Universe? But do you ever see the movie chef now Oh, you may want to check it out. It’s a guy I’m not gonna give it away but guys in the in the restaurant game and decides to open up a truck and all the stuff goes down anyway. Very cute movie. And what I mean there’s touristy things to do in LA certainly, you know the what was it? The Walk of Fame and all that type of stuff. What would be something that that you would say you have to see if you’re coming to LA?
Nicole Clark [26:53]
So this is again, it depends on the person and what you’re really into. Right? Do you want do you want to do the Hollywood stars? Do you want to go downtown? Like what are what are the things that are most important to the actual person that they find interesting? I’m more of a nature person. Okay. I would say of the of the different areas do you want to go to one that’s super popular where you can see sort of the Hollywood sign and get a hike in probably Runyon Canyon is a good one.
Steve Fretzin [27:23]
Nice. Yeah, I like that. I’m an I’m an outdoorsy like anytime I go somewhere I’m always looking for where the hike is where the scenic you know, views are and stuff like that. So I’m with you on that. And is that also where venturi
Nicole Clark [27:35]
is another one that is phenomenal. All look good day as well.
Steve Fretzin [27:40]
I spoke over you what was that? The last one the Griffith Observatory. Okay. Okay, cool. Cool. Nice. Nice. And then what are the locals into obviously, food trucks and nature? Right, right. Yes.
Nicole Clark [27:53]
I think one of the nice things you mentioned it, right, we’ve got we had one day of rain, like we are very lucky here that we get to be outside all the time, what I would say is, if you’re in a lay, the thing to know is that you have got you’ve got mountains, you’ve got ocean, you’ve got desert, all within a two hour drive. And you should check out each really California, especially southern California is incredibly lucky. And you got to make it to the beach. But check out this sort of mountains in the forest to what’s really special. Okay.
Steve Fretzin [28:25]
Wow, that’s really Yeah, I mean, that’s a lot of a lot of good stuff to do out your way. And, you know, I know my wife and teenager would be all over, you know, the universal stuff or whatever. Yeah, the Disney or the universal stuff, but I liked the nature. Listen, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate that you came up with such a great idea that you took it to the steps needed to get taken. And you sound like you you’re very passionate about it, which is which is the most important thing as a as a founder and CEO of any any company. So just thank you so much for your for, you know, being my guest. Really great being here. Thanks, Steve. And thank you everybody for listening in and checking out what Nicole Clark is up to over trellis. Again, the goal here is to continually help you to be that lawyer someone who’s confident, organized and skilled Rainmaker and we’ll talk again soon take care be safe be Well, thank you so much.
Thanks for listening to be that lawyer. Life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com. For additional information, and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes