Rochelle Seltzer: Unleashing Your Potential Through Untapped Creativity

– What does it mean to Live Big? – How does creating connect to living big — and what is creativity all about (that most people do not understand or appreciate, or feel intimidated about)? – How we can all be powerful creators of the lives we want to live.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Rochelle Seltzer discuss:

  • Why lawyers need creativity.
  • What does it mean to Live Big?
  • How creativity connects to living big.
  • Setting boundaries with kindness.

Key Takeaways:

  • We all are filled with creativity – but most of it goes untapped and underutilized.
  • When you’ve tapped into your creativity, you’re excited about trying new things, making bolder moves, and excited about expressing yourself.
  • Try something that you’ve never done before. Do something to inspire you.
  • You need to understand what it is that you want. What is your personal why? What would you do if you were bolder?

“When you’re in that state of being lit up and feeling inspired, the people around you feel that energy. It will impact everybody – it will impact colleagues, it will impact the people that support you in your role, it will impact your clients. It just elevates everything.” —  Rochelle Seltzer

Get a free copy of Steve’s book “Sales-Free Selling” here:

Thank you to our Sponsors!



Get Visible:

Episode References: 

About Rochelle Seltzer: Rochelle Seltzer is a Creative Core Coach, a dynamic speaker, and the author of the highly acclaimed book, Live Big: A Manifesto for a Creative Life. Her mission is to unleash the untapped creative capacity inside all of us, so we can bring all of our greatness into the world. Rochelle coaches accomplished women, helping them to get clear about the lives they want and create with intention, so they can live their biggest, most fulfilling lives.

Connect with Rochelle Seltzer:  








Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.



Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.


[00:00:00] Steve Fretzin: Hey, everyone. Before we get to the show, I wanted to let you in on something over the next few months and starting on August 24th with the topic that taboo surrounding sales and legal, I’ll be providing some sales, free selling workshops for you to learn the basics of my methodologies. If you ever wonder what it’s like to work with a coach or go through incredible training, here’s your chance.

[00:00:20] Steve Fretzin: It’s easy to register. Just go to Fredson dot com slash events to register as my VIP guest. See you there and enjoy the show.

[00:00:36] Narrator: You’re listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach, Steve Fretzin, will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

[00:00:58] Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to Be That Lawyer, I am Steve Fretzin. That’s it. As the announcer mentioned. And if you’re new to the show, welcome, we’d love to have a new folks, uh, listening to the show. And, um, the goal is to help you, uh, be that lawyer, someone who’s confident organized in a skilled rainmaker. If you’re someone that’s listening on a regular basis, my, uh, my goal every single week is to bring you two shows a week.

[00:01:20] Steve Fretzin: Um, really bring in the best talent, the smartest people, the most brilliant people I can to help you be your best self and to live your best life. And today is absolutely no different. Uh, I’ve got Rochelle sitting in the wings. How you doing? Great. How are you? I’m doing okay. This is, is this my first podcast since I’m back?

[00:01:38] Steve Fretzin: I went on vacation. I was in, um, Amsterdam and Paris. And, uh, Oh, my God, just so wonderful. I mean, it was, it was hard to smell cigarettes again, cause I’m not a big fan of cigarettes, but, um, I sucked it up cause the wine was so good. But everything else, other than that, like everything else was so wonderful.

[00:01:57] Steve Fretzin: I, I just, I would go back there any, any chance I could. It was just, just lovely. Have you, have you been?

[00:02:02] Rochelle Seltzer: I spent a month in Paris this past winter and we spent a long weekend in Amsterdam. So yes. Okay. Yeah.

[00:02:08] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I mean, just, and just what a different, just a different and wonderful, magical place. Um, so let’s spend the next 20 minutes talking about Paris and no, we’re not going to do that.

[00:02:19] Steve Fretzin: Uh, well, we’re going to, well, we are going to do is we are going to talk about, um, Some great, great stuff on being creative and, and again, how to unleash your potential through that, that untapped creativity. And one of the ways that we love to get into the show, Rochelle, is we love to share your quote of the show.

[00:02:37] Steve Fretzin: And you gave me three. I had the luxury of picking the one I wanted. And it’s this one by George Lois. And that is creativity can solve almost any problem, the creative act, the defeat of habit by originality overcomes everything. And I just love that. And I’d love to hear your take and your spin on that and why that was a quote that you suggested we bring in and welcome to the show again.

[00:03:03] Steve Fretzin: Thank you.

[00:03:05] Rochelle Seltzer: There’s so much about creativity that I think most of us are unaware of. And one of the things I loved about that quote is how much it brought together in one statement. That is thought provoking and that can really open up our curiosity about this thing called creativity. What can it mean in our lives?

[00:03:24] Rochelle Seltzer: So George Lois was a big shot in the advertising world. That’s how I started in my career was in design and advertising and marketing. So that’s a person that I knew and respected. And he was a combination of a creative genius and a business genius. And really defeating the habit by originality. To overcome anything, this is the power that we all have as creators.

[00:03:47] Rochelle Seltzer: And I, I just, uh, adore

[00:03:49] Steve Fretzin: that quote. Yeah, that’s really, really cool. Um, there’s a podcast that I’ve been listening to. Um, and of course now it’s, it’s not, it’s not coming to me, but it’s, it’s all about advertising. Um, it’ll pop into my head in a minute, but it’s, it’s, um, and I remember hearing George Lois, his name mentioned in there.

[00:04:08] Steve Fretzin: Um, in the, in this podcast, you know, it’ll come to me and I’ll mention a minute or two, but, uh, anyway, I just want to welcome the show and, and I’d love for you to share your background with everybody listening so that they can, um, uh, sort of, you know, get to know you a little bit as we launch into, you know, what we’re going to talk about today and, and about being creative.

[00:04:28] Steve Fretzin: Thank

[00:04:29] Rochelle Seltzer: you. I started my career in the creative world as a designer and I owned a design firm for 27 years. Curious path to what I do now, which is to be a coach and a speaker and to advocate for the power of creativity is that I was a creative person who could design the heck out of anything for her client.

[00:04:50] Rochelle Seltzer: And I was completely blocked creatively for myself. And when I faced that fact, and I faced the fact that I was running my business because it was there, it wasn’t really exciting anymore, is when I decided to make a big leap. And I sold my business and didn’t really expect to do this, but the universe introduced me to a genius about creativity and realized, okay, I better figure this out.

[00:05:13] Rochelle Seltzer: And I did a two year deep dive of study in this subject. And having started working with a coach shortly before that decision to sell my business is when I realized that coaching had changed my life and that I really believed that I could help other people and use, uh, creativity as the foundation for the work that I do.

[00:05:32] Rochelle Seltzer: So that’s, that’s the, in the

[00:05:34] Steve Fretzin: nutshell, that’s the nutshell, right? The liner

[00:05:36] Rochelle Seltzer: to be doing the work that I’ve been doing the last decade plus and loving every minute of it.

[00:05:41] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And was that the, be that lawyer tipping point that the moment where you had to take that deep dive and kind of make that shift?

[00:05:49] Steve Fretzin: It was

[00:05:50] Rochelle Seltzer: such a clear moment to me that I didn’t want to spend any more time doing something that was there just because I created it and I was proud of it and it was there and it wasn’t really lighting me up and I decided that I wanted to be lit up every day. I wanted to do something that was going to really, I could wake up to and be excited about doing.

[00:06:10] Steve Fretzin: By the way, that podcast that I mentioned earlier is um, And I just forget it again. Oh, it’s under the influence. Have you heard that before? I have not. Oh, you’re going to want to write that down. So essentially, it’s like, how does advertising and marketing like impact our lives from, you know, the story of Dr.

[00:06:28] Steve Fretzin: Pepper and Coca Cola to. Um, you know, how they use music in advertising and slogans and taglines. It’s just like the most amazing podcast on creativity in advertising. So you might get a kick out of that. I’ve been listening to it. My Leslie Fretz and my aunt turned me onto it a while ago. And so shout out to my aunt Les.

[00:06:48] Steve Fretzin: Um, and so let’s talk a little bit about, about creativity. I mean, what does it mean to, to be creative? What is creativity and how does that, uh, why is that important for us as humans? And then maybe bring that into lawyers. Why is it important for lawyers to be creative? Yeah.

[00:07:06] Rochelle Seltzer: Well, first of all, we all came into the world filled the bread with creativity.

[00:07:11] Rochelle Seltzer: There’s tons of it in all of us right now. And most of it goes on unaccessed, untapped and unleveraged. So. I really think that many people have a misconception. They think that creativity is for those famous actors and lawyers and painters and whatever dancers, and they minimize. So people meet me and they often say, Oh, but I’m not creative.

[00:07:32] Rochelle Seltzer: Like they feel like they should just tell me that right off the bat. And it’s like, well, you may not be creative in terms of some definition that you’ll hold in your head, but the truth is you’re full of it. You’re full of this ability to create. And so there are two parts about creativity that I like to talk about.

[00:07:50] Rochelle Seltzer: The first part is the expressive part. So that’s the painting or the dancing or whatever. But truly, if you love to cook, cook. If you love to dig in your garden, do that. A workshop, go build something. It can be anything, anything. And the reason that that’s fabulous is it connects you to your spirit, to your heart, connects you to your intuition.

[00:08:11] Rochelle Seltzer: It lights you up. More of your true self can come forward. I always say that being bold is a big piece of the work that I do, helping people be bold, but how do you express your boldness in a way that’s authentic to you? Well, when you connect your heart as a creator, you find that true spirit, you’re not faking it.

[00:08:30] Rochelle Seltzer: You’re showing up as your full self. So that’s, and new ideas come up. I mean, we all know that we get ideas in the shower or washing the dishes. It’s because the right brain, the right hemisphere of the brain needs a little downtime when you’re doing something expressive and it picks up the bits and pieces of your left logical brain and new ideas show up.

[00:08:49] Rochelle Seltzer: So that’s the expressive part. The other part that I love to teach about, because I think most of us don’t think of this. It’s adopting the mindset that we’re a creator, believing that we can create all day, every day. So the lawyer can create a completely new approach to solving a problem given the facts in front of them and realizing it doesn’t have to be the same as it always was when you have a case of, you know, fill in the blank, but also that we can create every decision, every next best step for us all day, every day, step after step after step.

[00:09:26] Rochelle Seltzer: So you’d have this agency in your life and this power. And I think of it in terms of helping accomplish women and men to create the futures that they really want. To really step into that power of being a creator. And I think when you activate both aspects of the creativity expressive part and the mindset part, you are fueled in a way that is.

[00:09:49] Rochelle Seltzer: Remarkable and exciting.

[00:09:52] Steve Fretzin: I have a client, I just started with me recently, um, who mentioned to me like he sits for hours sometimes and just, just sits and thinks and just sits and is still and in a creative state because in the area of practice that he’s in. The only way you can win is through a creative solution.

[00:10:08] Steve Fretzin: I mean, it’s not, it’s not a, right. It’s not a ready known solution that he can just pump out like everybody does. It’s something he’s got to craft because it’s on the class action side and there’s, there’s, you know, creativity involved in how you prepare and make a case that’s going to, that’s going to win and that’s going to go the distance.

[00:10:25] Steve Fretzin: And it was just, um, and I was just like, wow, that’s really, you know, that’s a very different thing than you hear most attorneys who. You know, crank out an estate plan or have to crank out the same divorce over and over again. And I’m not suggesting that there isn’t changes and differences, but it’s like, you know, even when I do, I’m creating all the time, but I think when I’m teaching business development, there’s creativity, but it, it, but it’s things that I’ve created.

[00:10:48] Steve Fretzin: And then I’m just kind of re saying them over and over again because they work, right. Cause I’m teaching something and I know what’s working, but when I write or when I present and come up with a new topic and a new, that’s all creativity. That’s all. I mean, I, I went to a, in fact, I went to a, uh, lovely restaurant in Paris that most people know it’s a steak and frites place, right?

[00:11:10] Steve Fretzin: A little con El El Encante. I never say it right, by the way. I always destroy the name. And that’s why I love my wife. My wife was in charge of the French. I was the stupid American. And that worked out. That was a good combo. Like, she would just go like, honey, and then she’d take over. But all they serve is one thing, and they only serve steaks and steak and fries, so they just, they, they do it better than anybody.

[00:11:31] Steve Fretzin: Their sauce is better, the way that they cook is better, the way that they, they just, that led me to craft and create a really impactful. A LinkedIn post about that experience and how it relates to being great at one thing. So that’s my creative process is taking something that’s happening in life and then writing and speaking and doing something with it.

[00:11:54] Steve Fretzin: Other than that, a lot of what I’m doing is kind of like, I hear the same things over and over and I have a same or similar answer over and over. So I, I have to find those outlets. I think most, most people need to need that. Yeah.

[00:12:07] Rochelle Seltzer: Yeah. It makes you feel more alive. For sure. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:12] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. You have to get out of the rut.

[00:12:13] Steve Fretzin: The

[00:12:15] Rochelle Seltzer: more that we the more that we can keep our spirit fueled, the more energy, positive, fresh energy we bring to everything that we do. And I would say the other beautiful part about that is when you’re in that state of being lit up and feeling inspired, the people around you feel that energy. And I think a lawyer’s clients will feel that energy.

[00:12:34] Rochelle Seltzer: It will impact everybody. It will impact colleagues. It will impact the people that support you in your role. It will impact your clients. It just elevates everything.

[00:12:44] Steve Fretzin: So what, what holds people back from their creative side that they are just living? Uh, more like humdrum, very mundane, routine, habit driven life versus a creative, big, fun, exciting life.

[00:13:04] Steve Fretzin: Older life.

[00:13:05] Rochelle Seltzer: So, you know, my book is called Live Big, a Manifesto for Creative Life. And I truly believe that we create the biggest, boldest expression of ourselves when we step into the fundamentals of how do we show up. Are we rushing all the time? Are we thoughtful? And we think about what we need for our own well being and our happiness.

[00:13:26] Rochelle Seltzer: Are we impatient or can we be open and curious? All these states of being, that’s the first half of the book is the being of living big, opens us up to do the things that are in the second half of the book, which are the being. So, I mean, the doing, so connecting to your intuition and being able to create expressively and live boldly and, um, cope with, be resilient in the face of challenges and finding your way when you’re confused.

[00:13:57] Rochelle Seltzer: When you’ve got the fundamentals of stepping into your feeling that you can step into all of who you are. Because a lot of people have confidence problems or don’t believe that they can do more than they, they have done. When you tap your, your creative energy, you are excited about trying new things.

[00:14:18] Rochelle Seltzer: You’re excited about expressing yourself in new ways. You’re excited about making some bolder moves, even if they’re very small steps at a time instead of just complacent. And in what,

[00:14:29] Steve Fretzin: so, so, all right, I’m hearing this, my audience is hearing this and they’re saying, okay, that sounds great. I love this concept.

[00:14:36] Steve Fretzin: I love what I’m hearing. What are a couple of things that, that I and others can do to get started? How do you just get from where you are to just the first two, three steps in? To start living that life and being creative and, and being bold and, and, and taking more, um, more out of it.

[00:14:57] Rochelle Seltzer: I actually think that one of the pathways is play.

[00:15:00] Rochelle Seltzer: We take things very seriously. Yes. Bring more energy of play and experiment and curiosity and delight. What lights you up? What will make you happy and making time for that and feeling deserving of that. And when you do that, you, you’re automatically, your energy levels go up and you’re more inspired to try something new and then actively try things that you have never done before.

[00:15:25] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. I think that’s, that’s important though. I mean, let’s, let’s stop there just for a second or so. I apologize. But I mean, that’s so important. Try something you’ve never done before. I mean, take up what guitar lessons, go travel to a new place, do, do something to inspire you versus it’s just, I can’t do that.

[00:15:43] Steve Fretzin: I just gotta, I gotta work or I gotta build these hours. I gotta deal with, you know, with the kids or whatever. You’ve got to find ways, right?

[00:15:50] Rochelle Seltzer: You do. And I think inspiration dates are a simple way. Maybe there’s just one weekend morning where you’ve got kids, take them to a museum, make it a little scavenger hunt.

[00:16:02] Rochelle Seltzer: Do something for yourself, with other people, with a friend. Try different kinds of food that you never tried. Try touching things in your life. In new ways and see what happens. Some of them you won’t like. And that’s fine. But then some of them will be amazing. And you’ll want to do

[00:16:22] Steve Fretzin: more of that. That’s terrific.

[00:16:24] Steve Fretzin: So number one is play. And experiment and get out there and like try new things. Okay, what, what would be another, another way to kind of get your juice flowing?

[00:16:35] Rochelle Seltzer: Well, funnily enough for, and I think this will be relevant to a lot of lawyers who are listening, is that you have to slow down. You have to find ways to slow down and be still and feel like that’s okay.

[00:16:49] Rochelle Seltzer: Instead of constantly pushing and pressing and driving yourself. I know that the accomplished people that I work with, whether they’re entrepreneurs or lawyers or executives or whoever they are, often are on the edge of or fully in burnout. They don’t know how to even stop and make that connection to who they really are and give themselves opportunities.

[00:17:13] Steve Fretzin: Yeah. Hey everybody, check this out. You’ve just had a call with a client where they need help with something you don’t do. You’ve reached out to colleagues, you’ve searched the lawyer directories and you simply tell them you don’t know anyone that can help. Overture changes all of that. Overture is the first private attorney network designed for the country’s best independent attorneys to refer matters to one another and ethically share in referral fees.

[00:17:37] Steve Fretzin: It’s a great way to keep your clients happy and build your practice with referred clients. It’s by the founders of LegalZoom. Membership is free if you’re accepted, but act now to get priority access to referrals for your state and practice area. Apply for membership at Overture. law. Overture dot L A W.

[00:17:58] Steve Fretzin: Okay, let’s take a quick break to talk about how money penny is changing the game for lawyers who are losing business every day and may not even realize it. It’s impossible to provide amazing client service when you have phone trees, voicemail, jail or untrained staff handling your phones. Every inbound call could be a new client to intake properly or an opportunity lost.

[00:18:18] Steve Fretzin: With MoneyPenny, it’s all been ensured the call will be handled exactly the way you want it every time. To take immediate action on this, write down this email and start your free trial. It’s SVJ at MoneyPenny. com and just mention my name in the subject line. Lawyers, there’s an easy way to boost your law practice.

[00:18:40] Steve Fretzin: Partner with GetVisible. The digital marketing agency that makes you stand out. Meet Sarah, an awesome lawyer, but a terrible marketer. GI Visible helped her build a powerful website and boost her online visibility. Now she ranks high on Google Gains clients through ads and engaging content, tired of feeling insignificant.

[00:18:58] Steve Fretzin: Make it rain. Visit gi and standout. And I would say, I mean, there’s a couple different ways to get to slow down and, and I’ll just share one that I think of and then you’ll, you can come up with one and then we’ve got two. That’s how math works, by the way, uh, just mansplained to, to everybody listening now.

[00:19:15] Steve Fretzin: Uh, but saying no, I think it’s just, we take on too much and we take on things that aren’t worth our time, worth our energy. They’re not really benefiting us or anybody because we’re, we’re not going to do them well. Right. And so I think getting comfortable with, with very nicely, very gently, very kindly saying no to things.

[00:19:36] Steve Fretzin: Um, and make that commitment that you’re going to say no more than yes, especially on things that are not in your, that not in your best interest of, of how you’re going to take care of yourself.

[00:19:48] Rochelle Seltzer: You know, I think you must’ve heard me speak cause I have a whole talk coveling without that.

[00:19:54] Steve Fretzin: I’m stalking. I’m stalking you behind your back.

[00:19:56] Rochelle Seltzer: Yeah. I wonder, but the third big chunk of the, of the message that I deliver is about setting boundaries and doing it kindly and that you’re really being kind to yourself and you’re being kind to other people. So, it can start with really little things, like not being at people’s beck and calls, like not saying yes to everything to be a people pleaser.

[00:20:17] Rochelle Seltzer: What do you need for your own well being to create, you know, the conditions that are going to be good for you? So, you know, we all are inundated with emails, boundaries just on that. When you answer that, when you look at them, you know, you and I were talking before we

[00:20:39] Rochelle Seltzer: And maybe you don’t need all of that so that you can just, you control when you’re going to check your email and when you’re going to reply. And I think a lot of that too is setting expectations with people. We teach people how to treat us. You say, I respond to emails between nine and five, or I get back to people within 24 hours.

[00:20:59] Rochelle Seltzer: We, we set the conditions that are right for us. And those are boundaries that are healthy. And they can certainly be set

[00:21:05] Steve Fretzin: kindly. Yeah. And I actually, um, I’ve got an, as many people know, I have an auto scheduler for my calendar and people are able to see what’s open and I’m taking, you know, regimented breaks and lunch break and finishing at a reasonable hour.

[00:21:20] Steve Fretzin: So that people can’t get in my calendar. It’s not an option for them. And that really has been a boundary that I set a while ago. And now I’m taking like half day on Fridays through the summer, because in Chicago, you know, these are like precious, you know, precious moments to take advantage of, of the outside.

[00:21:36] Steve Fretzin: So, um, I, there’s just a number of ways to do it. I, but, but to your point, slowing down. And, and giving yourself some time to breathe and to enjoy, as opposed to just being stressed all the time, it, you’ve got to find a way, a way through it. Yeah. Yeah. And is

[00:21:52] Rochelle Seltzer: there, is there… I mean, my idea is, is delegating more.

[00:21:55] Steve Fretzin: Delegate,

[00:21:55] Rochelle Seltzer: sure. Who can take things off of your list? There are people that, family members, and people at work, and people you can hire, people that can, might not do it exactly the way you do it, that’s okay. And there are people that can do certain things better than you can do, and that’s really good. So these are ways that we can open spaces in our lives.

[00:22:18] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think I just, I call it a, I don’t know if Fretsonism is kind of a thing I’ve been starting where I take all these ideas that I have and I come up with whatever unique things that I say. And, and I don’t remember the exact verbiage, but, uh, you know, something about like delegate everything.

[00:22:34] Steve Fretzin: And it really is true that, that especially with lawyers that are, that are highly billable and, and, and business development, maybe even being a better and more or greater use of their time for production of, of business and control and freedom in their career, that everything else needs to be delegated every 10, an hour job that they’re doing because it’s easier.

[00:22:56] Steve Fretzin: And it’s easier to just say, well, I’ll just take care of it. What a huge misstep in a day and a week in a life. When you’re doing that and not delegating. Yes.

[00:23:08] Rochelle Seltzer: And a lot of us don’t think that we can ask for help where it’s right to ask for help or whatever. And the truth is that the. Asking for help and delegating things can be a total game changer.

[00:23:20] Steve Fretzin: So, how can we all become, again, you know, using some of the things we’ve already talked about and going next level with it, um, powerful creators of the lives that we want to live? How do we make a decision to go in a direction and, and, and have the Constitution to stay with it?

[00:23:36] Rochelle Seltzer: Failed at EE is truly knowing what you really want.

[00:23:39] Rochelle Seltzer: It’s amazing to me how many people I meet and I say, well, what do you want? And people have trucked up with that question. So here’s a little exercise you could do. You could sit down face to face with somebody, your best friend, your sibling, your spouse, whatever, and just for five whole minutes, set a timer.

[00:24:01] Rochelle Seltzer: And look at that person in the eye and say, what do you want, Steve? What do you want? And then switch places. And it’s just, and what else do you want? What do you want? And in time you get very deep into your heart about really what you want. Yeah. The things that are not top of mind start to

[00:24:19] Steve Fretzin: show up. Yeah, I mean, there’s things that are priorities and important, you know, and, and for me, you know, my family taking care of my family, you know, making sure my son grows up with values and integrity and, you know, eventually gets into a good school and, and all of that, because I know that’s going to impact his career and, you know, being successful in business and, and what that means to me, sort of like what the why is of why I’m doing everything I’m doing and then everything else just sort of can just sort of like sift away from that.

[00:24:47] Steve Fretzin: Thank you. You know, away from that, I think another, another thing, another way to look at it is. Um, and this is, I’m trying to remember who came up with this, but, uh, there’s a, like a canister filled with, you know, water, sand, rocks, pebbles, and rocks, you know, that old deal. And what do you put in first? Like, what are your, you know, what, you know, if you put it in the sand, yeah, but if you put the sand in and the pebbles and then maybe you fit a rock on top, maybe two, but what if you put the rocks in first and really isolate what are your rocks and then you can decide.

[00:25:16] Steve Fretzin: The sand and the pebbles in the water, what fits around the rocks. And that’s a really visual way of deciding, look, I’ve got three or four rocks that have to happen in my life that are the critical rocks. Everything else is sort of pebbles and sand and water. And that way you’re not getting fully distracted by all the stuff that seems so important at the time, but it’s not.

[00:25:36] Steve Fretzin: Agreed. And

[00:25:37] Rochelle Seltzer: I also say this is an exercise to do periodically because things change. Life evolves, different phases of your life. You have different kinds of focal points and priorities. And so it’s not a one and done. It’s an exercise of continuing to check in with yourself.

[00:25:55] Steve Fretzin: No doubt. No doubt. And at the end of the day, it’s, it’s, you know, and hopefully people don’t have to have a near death experience.

[00:26:02] Steve Fretzin: I have had a near death experience. I know other people that have as well and surviving cancer, car crash, whatever it might be to kind of realize how. Fragile life is and how, how we only get one shot at this thing. And you know, whether that’s, you’re in a rut in your job where you’re just, you know, being billed, billing hours and being told what to do every day.

[00:26:24] Steve Fretzin: And you’re not really deciding your career. It’s being decided for you, or you’re in a bad marriage where it’s just constant friction and it’s not impacting the kids in a positive way. I mean, you can come up with, you know, everybody’s got their own scenario. But at some point, you gotta, you know, you gotta kind of draw a line in the sand and say, no more, I’ve got one shot at this.

[00:26:44] Steve Fretzin: I’m not going to keep down this bad pattern. You know, I,

[00:26:48] Rochelle Seltzer: I gave a talk last week and it was about, um, being bold in your life. And I gave the audience a question. And I asked everybody to answer this and we had mics on the corner of the stage and people got up and all answered it. He said, if I were bolder, I would.

[00:27:05] Rochelle Seltzer: So I’m going to ask you that. If you were bolder,

[00:27:08] Steve Fretzin: what would you do? And you’re asking me that right now? I am asking you. I’m putting you right I was bolder, what would I do? I I was bolder, I would. I would probably jump on airplanes and travel around the world speaking on my subject matter. You know, I was speaking to lawyers all over the world.

[00:27:28] Steve Fretzin: And I go back to Paris. Yes, I would go to England. I would go to, you know, everywhere where there’s lawyers that have a need for, you know, and I’m, you know, I’m friendly with someone who’s doing this in a different capacity, but for the legal community. And I was a little jealous and talking to her that she does that.

[00:27:45] Steve Fretzin: Um, but then I was on a seven hour flight or eight hour flight back from Paris in a very uncomfortable scene. I said, well, maybe not. I mean, I mean, I shouldn’t be so bold, you know, unless I can go first class. It’s probably, it’s probably not a great way to travel. Um, but I think that’s, that’s something that, that I may just have to be patient on for myself that I’ve got, I have my, my, I’m 53.

[00:28:07] Steve Fretzin: I don’t have any plans to. Slow down or retire anytime soon. I love and super passionate about what I do, but that may be something I want to do maybe when I hit 60 and, and be bolder in that capacity then. But, um, I don’t know. I mean, I think I’m, I think I do a pretty good job of, of being bold in my business, bold in my family.

[00:28:27] Steve Fretzin: And I’m kind of like the most Fretson of the Fretson’s people would say there’s, you know, in my family, I’m kind of like the, The one that, uh, that, you know, is, has the lampshade on his head at that party or that type of thing. But maybe that’s not what you meant by bold, but that’s, that’s maybe one, one example.

[00:28:42] Rochelle Seltzer: The, the things that came up when I asked that of this audience. One person said, and I actually asked her before. was on the stage. I’m not sure she would have said this to the room, but she said, Oh, I’d leave the relationship I’ve been in for the last 10 years. That’s toxic. Yeah. Somebody who’s a brilliant, and he’s played Carnegie hall.

[00:29:02] Rochelle Seltzer: He looked at me, he actually got up at the mic and he said, I’d write a new song every day, every day. Um, you know, it’s, it’s different for everybody, but I think it’s a great question to ask yourself because that’s the way that we can inspire ourselves not to be complacent. And what is that next small, bold thing?

[00:29:22] Rochelle Seltzer: That we can actually bring into awareness and then take action on whether we’re going to take action on it right now, or whether we’re going to take action on it in the future, it can become a dream and

[00:29:32] Steve Fretzin: a goal. So the big bold question could then be broken down into smaller bold questions and maybe so it’s not about me traveling around the world speaking on the subject.

[00:29:42] Steve Fretzin: Maybe it’s, Hey, why don’t I go out twice a year and do that or three times a year, four times a year, and then maybe build up to it. So I think there’s multiple ways to make change. Thank you. Um, as opposed to just a big, I’m just leaving this job that I’ve had, and that’s bold, but now I don’t have anything lined up and, you know, maybe that’s not a great financial move.

[00:30:01] Steve Fretzin: So take, you know, sometimes that works out sometimes, but

[00:30:04] Rochelle Seltzer: yeah, that we think so. The irony is that we think that we have to do something gigantic or to count. And the truth is there can be many small, bold steps as long as we keep following them.

[00:30:15] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that. Um, Let’s let’s transition though into uh, wait before we I was going to transition out to game changing podcast before we do that You already mentioned your book.

[00:30:25] Steve Fretzin: Is it uh, it’s live big. Is that the What’s the title? Live Big, Live

[00:30:29] Rochelle Seltzer: Big, A Manifesto for a

[00:30:31] Steve Fretzin: Creative Life. Okay. And, and just give another like 30 seconds on that because that, that’s a book that, that needs to be. So this,

[00:30:38] Rochelle Seltzer: I’m very proud of the fact that Seth Godin endorsed this book. Um, he endorsed particularly a key exercise I use in the book called the Discovery Dozen, which I almost tried with you on the spot, but I just changed my mind.

[00:30:52] Rochelle Seltzer: Um, it’s, the book is really. A set of practices for each of the concepts about how to cultivate these things in your life. And people love it. I love the book. I love what it does for people. It’s the kind of book you can move through from beginning to end, but I like it better when people just find the chapter they need when they need it.

[00:31:12] Rochelle Seltzer: Yeah. And, and it’s only available

[00:31:14] Steve Fretzin: on my website. Okay. And you’re going to, let’s give that, let’s give that since we’re talking about it, give, give that the digits on that and, and how do people reach you too? Great. So

[00:31:23] Rochelle Seltzer: my name, Rochelle Seltzer. com, which I’m sure you’ll have in the show notes. Yep. And that’s me.

[00:31:28] Rochelle Seltzer: And there’s a big picture of the book right on the, on the, if you scroll down a little bit on the homepage and then there’s a whole website about the book where you can see all the beautiful pages and all the endorsements and see if it appeals to you. And um, I’m always excited to talk to people who just want to have a conversation about what’s happening in their lives.

[00:31:47] Rochelle Seltzer: If I can help people to have a little new, fresh perspective or insight. I’m happy to do

[00:31:52] Steve Fretzin: it. Well, it’s a, it’s a gift and I appreciate it so much. Um, you’re, uh, as long as you’re giving gifts, here’s another one. Your game changing podcast is Brene Brown, Unlocking Us. Yeah.

[00:32:04] Rochelle Seltzer: If you don’t know it, I highly recommend it.

[00:32:06] Rochelle Seltzer: Okay. She’s, she’s brilliant. She has brilliant guests. Yeah. I love

[00:32:10] Steve Fretzin: it. And what’s the, what’s the topic? What’s the. It’s all

[00:32:13] Rochelle Seltzer: about living a wholehearted life, being able to be vulnerable and show up in a big way.

[00:32:18] Steve Fretzin: Okay. So very much in line with, with your kind of mindset and where you’re taking people to.

[00:32:24] Steve Fretzin: Exactly. Okay. Wonderful. And as we wrap up, everybody, I want to take a moment to thank our sponsors. Of course, we’ve got, uh, GetVisible, who’s just crushing it on the digital marketing side. Again, if you’re looking for a, uh, a better website, a better conversion, you’re looking for business in the legal space, um, they’re the, you know, one of the top marketing agencies in the country.

[00:32:43] Steve Fretzin: So check them out. Muddy Penny, who is doing your, um, you know, we talked about delegating, get away from those phone trees and get away from that receptionist. Delegate to Moneypenny and get your, uh, reception handled, uh, 24 7 and, uh, bring in the business that way. And then, uh, our newest sponsor, uh, Overture, uh, law.

[00:33:02] Steve Fretzin: And they’re fantastic if you’re tired of handing out business and just getting a nice thank you or maybe no thank you at all. This is a way to ethically fee share. And so you can actually bring in some, some, uh, cash, uh, for yourself as a lawyer ethically by using, uh, Overture. law. So check them out, and if you’re interested in picking up my book, Sales Free Selling, The Death of Sales, I’m sorry, Sales, You’re Dead, and The Rise of a New Methodology, that is on Amazon, but it’s also free on my website.

[00:33:30] Steve Fretzin: If you go to fretson. com slash sales dash free dash selling, you can pick up a free copy of that and you will enjoy it. It is a hell of a read. Um, and that is what I’ve got. So. Rochelle, thank you so much. I just, I just enjoyed not only meeting you initially, but then this podcast, doing this episode with you and just so many great takeaways and ideas and suggestions, and that’s what I love to do is just have people that can really not just talk at 20, 000 feet, but like get in the mud with us and really help.

[00:34:03] Steve Fretzin: Give people ideas of things they can do that are, that are, that are, you know, that can change their life if they actually take action on it.

[00:34:10] Rochelle Seltzer: Well, it’s been a complete pleasure. Thank you for the invitation and a fun conversation.

[00:34:14] Steve Fretzin: Yeah, no doubt. No doubt. I appreciate that. And Hey, thank you everybody for spending time with Rochelle and I today.

[00:34:19] Steve Fretzin: Um, you know, this, this is just another opportunity for you to be that lawyer, someone who’s confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care, everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again very soon.

[00:34:34] Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, Fretzin. com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business developments. Development and marketing trends for more information and important links about today’s episode check out today’s show notes